The news Israel wishes we didn't hear

by Mike Tue May 18, 2004 15:40

"The news Israel wishes we didn't hear "

Since you can see pretty full reports of the attacks on standard Israeli media -- and I'm speaking about just what's published in English, it does not appear as if the Israelis are concerned about other people hearing this stuff.

That's because it's a matter of interpretation. How we judge the meaning of the same reported event. For example, the article here describes two helicopter missle attacks each of which killed a couple militants (armed fighters, there's a fire fight going on) PLUS some bystanders. HOW do you judge those events? Some of you will call that a "random attack targeting civilians" because the missle was fired at the militants in spite of the presence of nearby civilians. Others will consider that a proper aimed attack (and clearly successfully aimed since it hit them) and the civilians also killed the usual "collateral casualties" responsibilty for whose deaths is shared. (after all, the militants chose to open fire when surrounded by civilians, chose to attempot to use the civilians as shields)

We shouldn't be TOO quick to imagine that it's just the Israelis ignoring "collateral damage" to civilians. Remember a few days ago when the road mine was set off and took out the first APC killing the six Israeli soldiers? Well I believe there were 10 "own goals" reported (wounded, I don't know how many survived or died).

BTW (to correct a possible wrong assumption) I think the Israelis should get the hell out of Gaza and the West Bank, end the occupation and allow the Palestinians to form their own state and live in peace with the Israelis IF THEY CAN. I need to stress that latter point because I am pessimistic, believe that the internal dynamics will prevent the Palestinians from doing so. Andf then we will be able to disagree about our interpretations of events once more . (for example, I imagine scenarios like this -- some militants set up a rocket launcher or mortar in a schoolyard and begin firing rounds into Israel -- and so an Israeli battery of 155mm howitzers opens up counter battery fire resulting in many "collateral casualties")

by iosaf Tue May 18, 2004 16:45

I spent the day monitoring what we knew before was going to be a "day". & it was and is _very serious_. & everyone is so used to thinking it's serious, that it's quite difficult to communicate the "up" in the seriousness factor.
But "up" it went. I've spent the afternoon, talking to "people", and we've agreed that the "coup d'etat" index, (which we ought perhaps keep on all indymedia front pages), akin to Washington's daily Defcon rating", has in the last 24 hours gone from Yellow (not likely) to Orange (quite likely) in several states. One of which is Israel. That will surprise lots of people, but Sharon is a democratically elected prime minister and safe in his job, they will say, yes we say, he is.

it's time to start reading local news:-

israel:-
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/P/FrontPage/FrontPage&cid=1002116796299
egypt:-
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/690/index.htm
jordon:-
http://www.jordantimes.com/tue/index.htm
syria:-
http://www.teshreen.com/syriatimes/
Lebanon:-
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/home.asp?edition_id=10

by Ali Mc Tue May 18, 2004 17:34

Israel has had Patriot anti-missile batteries for over 10 years which are more than capable of shooting down anything the Palestinians can shoot at them.

The "excuse" that they are going in because of the "threat" from these supposed missiles simply does not hold up!

As usual the Israeli response is extreme and disproportionate, even in cases where obviously military targets have been attacked using conventional guerrilla warfare techniques so the usual "war on terror" and "homicide bomber" rehetoric does not hold up either.

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 10:07

If you had been in Israel during the first Gulf war, you wouldn't have much faith in Patriot missiles. In any case, none of you numbskulls has actually taken the trouble to find out really why Israel has gone into Gaza in such a big way. It was the discovery in the Sinai of large stockpiles of Katyusha rockets supplied by Iran ready to be smuggled through the tunnels into Gaza. From Gaza these rockets can hit Tel Aviv and probably Jerusalem. This is unacceptable to any Israelis. It is also a good reason why Israel can't just leave the Arab Palestinians to have their own state and live in peace with Israel - they are just too addicted to killing Jews to be able to do that. That is the sad reality, and if you were Jews and had lived with anti-Semitism all your life, instead of living in a far away country and knowing nothing whatever about Jews and Jewish culture, the chances are you would understand this. Not that your lamentable ignorance stops you for a moment from offering up your ignorant opinions. And, by the way, Egypt's permitting of all this weapon smuggling is a violation of its peace treaty with Israel, under which Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai (which it took when Egypt was about to attempt to destroy Israel) in exchange for peace. I don't hear any of you criticising Egypt here or for that matter, the Palestinian terror gangs. Funny that, isn't it?

by Ali Mc Wed May 19, 2004 10:59

Avi you are lying as usual as even you can see there is no way you can get a Katusha rocket through the tunnel shown in:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/8.stm

Photo of Katusha. Are you a magician Avi?

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?TRN-150

Also you talk about Patriots as if technology had not advanced in the least in the past 13 years since 1991.

In fact as you well know Israel already has the technology necessary to shoot down these rockets.

The Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL) demonstrator successfully tracked and destroyed a single rocket for the first time and during the first attempt today at approximately 3:45 p.m. EDT.

The test was the first of a series of shoot-downs before the THEL is handed over to the Government of Israel.

The THEL is a joint Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration (ACTD) program between the United States and Israel designed to negate the threat posed by Katyusha rockets to populated areas in northern Israel.

http://www.smdc.army.mil/PubAff/00Press/THEL_Shootdown.html

Admit it this is really just a cover for Sharon's government to kill off the remaining opposition in Gaza.

Tell the truth for once in your life!

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 11:05

not the trucks, idiot.

by Ali Mc Wed May 19, 2004 12:21

I was not referring to the truck as the rocket assembly will not fit either as even a Zionist schmuk like you can see.

Now enough of the excuses already as it is pretty obvious that your occupation forces have just dreamt this up as a cover for killing as many Palestinians as they can get away with, whether they're actively resisting occupation or are innocent bystanders.

by kokomero Wed May 19, 2004 13:35

Asmaa Mughayer, 15, and her brother Ahmed, 13, were shot dead yesterday as they fed pigeons on the roof of their house. Their uncle, Mahmoud Mughayer, said that they had been unaware of the extent of the incursion because with the camp's electricity supply cut off by the assault there was no television. Their elder brother, Ali, 24, had shouted at them to come down because it was dangerous. When he heard no response, he climbed the steps to find his sister and brother lying dead in a pool of blood.

Mr Mughayer said: "The snipers fired at him, too. He lay on the ground, and slowly crept pulling them one after another to the third floor." He added that it had taken an ambulance five hours to arrive because of the firing. He added: "This was the biggest crime. Asmaa and Ahmed were not mujahedin. This is the largest injustice, unacceptable by humanity."

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 16:25

I am not going to reveal all my sources. In any case, most readers probably can't read Hebrew , so they may like to go to:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1084677182465

by Ali Mc Wed May 19, 2004 18:53

Have you finally realised the Israeli occupation forces have gone too far?

IDF tank shells kill 10 demonstrators in Rafah
By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH AND NINA GILBERT

IDF tanks shot into a crowd of demonstrators near Rafah's Tel Sultan neighborhood Wednesday afternoon, killing 10 people, including two children, and wounding dozens of others, Palestinian medical workers said.

Initial reports indicated that over 20 people were killed in the incident and that a missile fired from an IAF helicopter was the cause of the deaths. Palestinian medical officials later confirmed that 10 Palestinians were killed.

You didn't provide any info. on how the Palestinians are "supposedly" getting Katyuschas through the tunnels.

Perhaps they have invented a miniturising ray to shrink them?

Now I get it, they used it on your brain first and that's how you know so much about it!

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 19:02

industry in Rafah, especially as the PA can't be bothered to create any jobs. Many of the tunnels are reasonably large and sophisticated.

by Ali Mc Wed May 19, 2004 19:37

The BBC site photos #7 and #8 of the tunnels have barely enough room for an Israeli soldier to crawl through, much less move a large hunk of metal weighing 500kg.

The method for transporting material consisting of a plastic container with a rope seems capable of transporting a maximum of 50-100kg and no more without risk of blocking the tunnel.

If there were evidence of more sophisticated tunnels capable of transporting larger weapons the Israeli occupation forces would have shown them to the worlds media.

Surely even you are not stupid enough to think otherwise?

by John McDermott - Remove Fianna Fail party Wed May 19, 2004 23:51 Dublin

They are just recovering their forefathers homeland.Its a nuisance that a few million Palestinians are in the way.Might is always right.Besides ,George Bush needs their american votes.
The good people ,the peacemakers ,are always a minority.So it is in Israel.And the innocent reap the whirlwind.On both sides.

by namesake Thu May 20, 2004 16:56

But Bush probably wont get the Jewish vote, it goes Democrat.

Which is why Sharon will continue!
Bush doesn't like Sharon _really_
Sharon scares him, and Bush just said he was brave because Sharon's bigger than him.
That's why Schwarzenegger was sent over to make Sharon feel titchy.

A Vote for Bush will sort it out.
one way or the other.
dont you see kids his bluff has been called.
he isn't the great dictator.

by David Thu May 20, 2004 17:46

Needed: INTERNATIONAL ANARCHIST CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE ONGOING GENOCIDE IN THE
OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES!
Dear friends,
My name is David and I am anarchist from Israel. There is an emergency
situation in Palestine. Dozens of innocent Palestinians, women, children and
old people, are killed every day in Rafah. Dozens of of houses have been
destroyed already. More than thousand people were made homeless, and the
killing and destruction only get worse. According to unofficial numbers,
there are more than 20,000 innocent Palestinian refugees. Anarchist
activists were beaten and arrested tonight. Take a solidarity action now!

We need your help! There is an emergency situation right now in the Gaza
Strip and the town of Rafah, in particular, with scenes that bring to mind
Israel's invasion of Jenin and Nablus in the spring of 2002. So far today,
18 Palestinians were killed, but the action continues. Last weekend, 116
homes were destroyed, making over a thousand people homeless (please see
www.btselem.org ). Hundreds more are slated for
destruction. The Ha'aretz
daily reporter (www.haaretz.com ), Amira Hass,
filing dramatic daily reports
from inside Rafah, describes the scenes of people grabbing their children
and whatever comes to hand and fleeing their homes, anticipating the entry
of the bulldozer-tanks. There are dead people in the streets, injured people
are not being taken to hospitles.

Even Yossi Sarid MP from the Yahad Party (the social-democrats, formerly
called Meretz), normally a staunch defender of the Israeli Occupation
Forces, described actions in Rafah as "war crimes". Many -- Israelis,
internationals and Palestinians -- are desperately trying to halt the
bloodshed. The Israeli women's peace movement just placed an ad in Ha'aretz
calling for an immediate halt to the violence and renewal of negotiations
for what they call "a peace agreement that will extract us from all the
occupied territories" ("True and enduring solutions," we wrote, "are
attained by negotiation, not destruction, revenge or humiliation"). Although
we, anarchists from Israel, are against any kind of peace between the ruling
classes, we decided to participate in the united front against the genocide
in Gaza strip. This morning, forty women drove to Gaza to see if they could
intervene physically, but they are being prevented from entering Gaza by the
occupation army. The women have set up an encampment at the Sufa checkpoint
and say they will not leave until the army stops its actions there. Other
peace and human rights organizations have placed newspaper ads, and many are
organizing a larger delegation to join the women on Friday, in which a big
demonstration will take place.

In addition, the ruling of Israel's High Court of Justice allows the IDF to
continue its mass house demolitions in Rafah, and gives the IDF full
discretion as to when to allow a court hearing prior to demolition. In
issuing this ruling, the Court has shirked its obligation to balance
security considerations with the rights of Palestinian civilians who are not
involved in the hostilities. When addressing events in the West Bank and
Gaza Strip, the Court consistently disregards its obligations regarding
human rights and international law, and uncritically adopts the position of
the security establishment. Since the beginning of the Intifada, the IDF has
demolished some 1,800 homes in the Rafah Refugee Camp. Since the beginning
of 2004 alone, 284 homes have been demolished in Rafah, leaving 2,185
Palestinians homeless. House demolition on such a massive scale cannot be
justified as "urgent military need."

Amnesty International is launching a report today entitled Israel and the
Occupied Territories: Under the rubble: House demolition and destruction of
land and property. In this report, the organization analyses the main
patterns and trends of forced eviction, house demolition and destruction of
property by the Israeli army and security forces in Israel and in the
Occupied Territories in the light of international human rights and
humanitarian law.

You can find the report as well as a web action on AI's website:

The report: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150332004

Press release: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150502004

Stop destruction of homes and land by Israeli army - take action!
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-180504-action-eng

Slideshow:
http://www.amnesty.org/resources/slideshow/slideshow-detect.htm?id=isr-180504-eng

Gush Shalom, Israel's peace movement, reports:

We heard what happened in Rafah while preparing in the Gush office for the
already announced Friday protest at the Gaza entrance. We couldn''t think of
a more fitting reaction than sending out a call to come - once more - to the
Defense Ministry for an immediate protest. On the way there, with our
banners and shields, we felt rather futile compared with those on whose
behalf we were going to protest: the Rafah demonstrators in the middle of
whom a helicopter gunship had sent a missile wounding dozens and among the
ones killed several kids...

Still, the protest of some 250 - with besides Gush Shalom a very visible
(and loud) presence of the dissident reservists (Courage to Refuse) and the
Anarchists - had more spirit than the mass rally some days earlier. People
easily found each other in furious chanting and the blag flags were there
again. Nobody was surprised when some of the young took the initiative of
blocking the street. More and more left the sidewalk. Police who started
coming, closed off the Kaplan road for
traffic, but before they could isolate us we had started marching. Chanting
while walking from the Defence ministry gate through the whole Kaplan street
into Ibn Gvirol, and from there towards the Rabin Square.

Reactions of passers-by were not unfriendly, and we nearly thought that the
police for once decided not to show the usual behavior on this day of shame,
but then suddenly they come from nowhere diving into the crowd and singling
some out for arrest. Gush Shalom spokesperson Adam Keller was the first -
seven polices dragged him, forcing him face-down on the street, and from
seeing how they handled his arms and legs it seemed a miracle that he
afterwards was not among the three (out of eight arrested) who had to go to
hospital. The others were treated no better: Matan Cohen (wounded) ,
Yonathan Pollack (the "recidivist" anarchist), Elad Orian, refusnik David
Zonscheine, Lezer Peled (wounded), Roni Avidov, Gal Chajad (wounded).

Some thirty demonstrators came to the police station, with two of them being
able to function as lawyers (adv. Micheal Sfarad, himself a refuser, and
activist advocate Yael Varda). After we had seen the wounded three
handcuffed but on their feet coming out of the sstation to enter an
ambulance, at 11pm the message came that the other arrestees would spend the
night at Abu-Kabir (the Arabic name of this prison dating back to the
pre-'48 period) after which the judge would decide what to do further.

Israelis who can, please come to the court(s) Thursday morning, May 20. Six
of the eight will appear before the Duty Judge in the Magistrate Court
(Mishpat Hashalom) Weitzman Street where they can be expected to be heard
from 9am on.Matan and Roni will appear before a judge in the Juvenile Court
(Shocken building), at about the same time. We hope that all will have the
support of some friends and family.

From: David Merhav