Sinn Féin Easter Rising Commemoration March from Dublin City to Glasnevin Cemetery

by redjade Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:17

.

Basques in Dublin

Entering Glasnevin Cemetery

by redjade Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:20

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Gerry Adams

Easter Rising Memorial

by Andreas Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:27

Are Sinn Fein a fascist organisation? I am from Denmark, at to me it looks like the marchers in the top foto are dressed as fascists. Also in my country fascist groups march with the national flag like Sinn Fein do also.

by redjade Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:34

Glasnevin Cemetery
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/17751/105962

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams speaking
at this year's Dublin Easter Commemoration
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/4197

Easter Rising 1916 Proclamation
http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/history/multitext/1916/poblacht.html

by Badman Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:36

Populist Nationalists with a fondness for paramilitary aesthethics perhaps, but definitely not fascist. You could make the argument that their politics are similar to the populist nationalism of Peron in Argentina in the 1940's, who many would hold up as an example of pure fascism (unsullied by anti-semitism or irrational racism). But the different political situations of Argentina and Ireland, especially in their relations with the USA, means that SF are unlikely to go down that road. Sinn Fein's nationalism is mostly focused on the inter-communal battles of the North and British Imperialism and they are very slow to do anything that might piss off the big boys in Washington. Their closest model is Fianna Fail of the 20's and 30's, which they openly say themselves, and they are much more likely to go down that road of a purely rhetorical attachment to nationalism while they get the business done on behalf of the international powers.

They might disagree ;-)

by observer Mon Apr 12, 2004 23:13

Top photo is of an colour party wearing the uniform of the IRA. The organisation that physically beat the fascists off the streets in 1930s here. The organisation of which 90% of the International Brigase who went to Spain to fight Franco were members of or former members of. Maybe if the Danish working class had such an organisation you might not have surrenedered so cravenly in 1940 :))))

by jimbox Mon Apr 12, 2004 23:14

as opposed to rational racism?

by Badman Tue Apr 13, 2004 00:02

And they are of course boneheads so it's not supposed to make sense.

by a ghost Tue Apr 13, 2004 01:36

this is a puzzle for the grey bloc
who said the following about events at eastertime? Dates and locations and nationalities have been changed to protect the innocent.
'There was clamour and confusion, that there was a destroying battle between I****** and strangers in ********.'

'I say I am proud of their courage and if you were not so dense and stupid as some of you ** people are, you could have had these men fighting for you . . . it is not murderers who are being executed it is insurgents who have fought a clean fight, however misguided and it would have been a dammned good thing for you if your soldiers were able to put up as good a fight as did those men in ********.'

'People will say hard things of us now but we should be remembered by posterity and blessed by unborn generations'

'And then one day a couple of hundred I**** workmen, a couple of score of students, a handfull of intellectuals, came out into the streets of ****** and proclaimed an ****** Republic'

'People say: 'of course they will be beaten'. The statement is almost a query and they continue, 'but they are putting up a decent fight'. For being beaten does not matter greatly in I***..., but not fighting does matter'

'It is not an I**** rebellion. It would be a pity if ex post facto it became one, and was added to the long and melancholy list of I***** rebellions'

Disclaimer: 'no symbols where none intended' michael.

by An Craoibhin Aoibhinn Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:38

Observer: "Maybe if the Danish working class had such an organisation you might not have surrenedered so cravenly in 1940 :))))"

What were the IRA doing during those years? They supported Hitler!

The Danish working class did not surrender "cavenly". If Ireland was next to Hitler then Ireland would have been invaded by Hitlers Army (which is what IRA wanted but Hitler was not bothered with little Ireland)

by shinner Tue Apr 13, 2004 13:18

A Chairde,
It was great to see so many people to come out on the streets to honor the men and women who fought and died in the cause of Irish freedom. We are rightly proud of all the Volunteers of the Irish Republican Army who died in the cause of freedom. The brave volunteers who gave their lives for equality, fraternity and Justice. It is a disgrace that the government of the twenty-six counties does not honor those who were the catalysts for the partial liberation of our country. In all other nations who have fought wars of liberation the fallen are given the respect, which they deserve. I think that parades such as the ones, which happened around the country, are important. They give us the chance as republicans to reaffirm the commitment made by the volunteers of the rising, the commitment to a thirty-two county Irish Socialist republic, based on equality and Justice. The colour party leading the parade represents these objectives. We will not be deflected in this goal by the Right Wing rubbish being peddled by the FF & PD coalition. All on the left should be attacking the current government rather than each other for electoral gain.
Tiocfaidh Ar La.

by tlla Tue Apr 13, 2004 13:25

Fair play shinner. The Irish government should have a proper commemoration. Well done.

by Sickened Tue Apr 13, 2004 16:53

Yes, let's remember the gang, numbering between 20 and 28, who bravely took a widowed mother of ten from her home, spirited her away and shot her in the back of the head. Let's remember all the atrocities inflicted upon innocent people by the brave boys and girls of the IRA. I can just about hear the Wolfe Tones sing of their bravery as the provos murdered children in Belfast, Derry, Warrington, Mullaghmore or where ever else they found them. Come on Gerry tell us of your part in Bloody Friday! Bombs away!! Your day will come o.k. , but not as you imagined it.

by Dublin Brigade - Óglaigh na hÉireann Tue Apr 13, 2004 17:05

IRA Easter Message 2004
The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann extends fraternal greetings to all Volunteers, to republican activists and to our supporters and friends at home and abroad.

We send solidarity greetings to our imprisoned comrades and their families.

On this, the 88th anniversary of the 1916 Rising, we especially remember our patriot dead and extend solidarity to their families. We commemorate the freedom fighters of all generations who have given their lives for Irish freedom.

Ten years ago, we declared a complete cessation of military operations to enhance the democratic peace process. We stated our belief that an opportunity to secure a just and lasting settlement had been created. Our cessation was not only a definitive and powerful signal of our commitment to that process, it was also a defining moment in the recent history of this island.

We stated that others, especially the British Government, had a duty to face up to their responsibilities.

In an attempt to deflect from the significance of our initiative and evade their responsibilities, the British Government of that time and the political leaderships of unionism became fixated with achieving the surrender of the IRA. They failed and despite their opposition the peace process was created.

In the period since, the IRA leadership has consistently demonstrated our commitment to advancing the process through a series of substantive initiatives, which have included:

• Authorising our representative to meet with the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD).

• Facilitating the inspection of IRA arms dumps by the International Inspectors on three separate occasions.

• Agreeing a scheme with the IICD on putting arms completely and verifiably beyond use.

• Implementing the agreed scheme on three separate occasions.

Throughout the ten years of our cessation there has been very serious provocation from British securocrats, their military forces and their allies in unionist paramilitarism.

In the same period, others within the British and Irish establishments have persisted with the idea of defeating republicans rather than moving forward. They are now on an offensive. The old conservative agenda has re-emerged.

The unionist paramilitaries are responding to that. IRA guns remain silent, despite an onslaught of unionist paramilitary violence against Catholics, including hundreds of attacks and a number of killings over the last year.

Today also, we are witnessing another attempt to criminalise and demonise republicans and the republican struggle. This time it is for selfish electoral reasons. Leading this are Irish politicians who stood idly by while Irish citizens, North and South, were being terrorised by the RUC, the British Army and their surrogates in the unionist death squads.

Twenty-three years ago, the men and women in the H-Blocks and Armagh Gaol defeated the policy of criminalisation. Ten Irish republicans died on Hunger Strike in defence of the integrity of the republican struggle. This new attempt will also fail.

Last October, agreements were made and commitments given. The IRA leadership fulfilled our commitments. The leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party and the two governments did not fulfil theirs. They acted in bad faith. Yet again the two governments are attempting to move the goalposts. This has caused justifiable anger. It is unacceptable that other protagonists should try to dictate the terms of our cessation.

The honouring of agreements and commitments is critical in instilling confidence and demonstrating that politics can work. They are essential elements of building an enduring political process.

The two governments, and in particular the British Government, must fulfil their commitments. Until they do so there can be little prospect of any progress.

Beirigí bua.

P O'Neill,

Irish Republican Publicity Bureau,

Dublin.

by Pol Og. Tue Apr 13, 2004 17:12

He hasn’t gone away- and he wont be going anywhere. Our struggle grows stronger day by day. June the 11th will witness a further leap forward for our cause.
Tiocfaidh ar La

by observer Tue Apr 13, 2004 18:35

The IRA did not support Hitler. The IRA could only be responsible for fascism in other states but where it mattered it confronted and defeated it here. And it has been the only organisation combatting fascism here for the past 30 years. So change the fucking record.

by Snare Eire Tue Apr 13, 2004 19:02

Observer tells us the people in the photo, who are part of the Sinn Fein march, are wearing the uniform of the IRA. But wait a second, are'nt SF constantly tell us that they have no links with the IRA. Yet observer, who is clearly sympathetic to SF proudly points out that people are wearing IRA uniforms at an SF march. Now we all know Mc Dowell and co. are huffing and puffing about links between the IRA and SF, to damage stop SF from making a breakthrough in the local elections. But please dont take us for patsies. Anyone with the tiniest bit of cop on knows that SF and the IRA are two wings of the same movement. This does not mean that all or most SF members are in the IRA, just that the IRA is the military wing of SF. Stop pretending and then we can have a serious discussion about the relationship between the two wings!

by Glen Swizer Tue Apr 13, 2004 19:59

FACT:

Sean Russell, the IRA's wartime chief of staff, died of appendicitie while on a U Boat travelling from france back to ireland. He had been attempting to persuade the Nazis to invade Ireland so the IRA couild overthrow DeValera's govenment and sieze control of the north.

FACT:

People who criticise the IRA have been known to end up dead.

FACT: The IRA does not recognise the government of the Republic of Ireland despite 75 years of elections.

What was that about fascists?

by observer Tue Apr 13, 2004 20:04

ooooh, the IRA kill people so they're fascists. What brilliant logic. Oh, and "let's have a discussion". ..... Heee Heee Heee

by Northern Eye Tue Apr 13, 2004 20:57

Sean Russel was one man leading a tiny, desparate group 60 years ago. Dry your wee eyes for fucks sake.

Give me one example of the IRA killing someone because they criticized them.

How does not recognising a government that is only electable in two thirds of the country make you a fascist?

by Glen Swizer Tue Apr 13, 2004 21:18

>Sean Russel was one man leading a tiny, desparate group 60 years ago. Dry your wee eyes for fucks sake.

And every year Sinn Fein show up and give speeches at Ireland's most embarassing statue. This year it Mary Lou MacDonald, who is been parachuted in because she's middle class and went to TCD and therefore not quite as scary as the rest of leadership

> Give me one example of the IRA killing someone > because they criticized them.

Norris McWhirter. But then the IRA never *needed* an excuse to commit murder.

> How does not recognising a government that is only electable in two thirds of the country make you a fascist?

Because the electorate in the republic of Ireland have repeatedly made clear that they do not want to northen question resolved by force. Because Sinn Fein/IRA have and seek to retain their own private army. Because they do not tolerate dissent within thieir own party, let alone their own community.

Sinn Fein are Fascists. End of Story.

by Northern Eye Wed Apr 14, 2004 00:41

They shot Norris McWhirter because he was offering a large cash reward to anyone who could track down an IRA team in England. It was brutal but it did have its practical reasons. And no matter what you think of those reasons they undeniably didn't kill him because of simple criticism.

The IRA aren't a private army run by godfathers no matter what you might think. Sinn Fein know the time for violence has passed and we're in a different arena now and believe me they would dearly love to see the IRA stood down. But they can't just give up and surrender like that. They've tried to bring the IRA to an end but it won't happen if the Unionists are going to demand it on their terms - that just woundn't be acceptable at all and would split the mainstream movement down the middle - and I don't think they're going to do that somehow.

As for this myth that the chucks somehow keep a lid on any political dissent in their community, thats just absurd. What they have done is try to keep a lid on the idiots and scumbags in the RIRA and so forth from carrying out any attacks or gaining a foothold and being allowed to grow. Do you want another Omagh?

by By Any Means Necessary Wed Apr 14, 2004 09:49

Any person who studies politics or history will see that fascism has always been a tool of the ruling class to subvert and destroy socialist and communist organisations. To divide the working class and defend middle class interests as long as they are subserviant to the existing ruling structures.

There fore any comparison of fascist organisations and the IRA are false.

Republicans may of supported an anti-British agenda in 1939-1945, that does not make them fascist. Black and Indian soldiers were put in uniform by the Nazis during the Great Patriotic War, does that make them white supremacists ?

If you want to find fascism in Ireland, go to the Curragh mutiny and Loyalism in the six counties, all classic examples of fascism.

by TT Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:26

To: 'by any means necessary'
The term 'Great Patriotic War' was the term used by the Russians, not the Germans.

As well as 'the Curragh mutiny and Loyalism in the six counties', the Blueshirts should also be mentioned.

by Citizen Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:01

Andreas from Denmark says the photos show people who look like fascists. They remind him of the fascists in his country. I think this is a good point for the modern progressive Shinners to think about. Just try to be objective for a minute and ask yourself: If you came from abroad and didn't know much about Ireland and you saw the Easter march, what kind of people might you think these people are?
I have to say that they look a bit like fascists to me.
So as Sinn Féin modernises and with the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, the IRA and all armed groups cease to exist, maybe the modern progressive Shinners should look at how they commemorate Easter 1916 and get out of the fascist looking gear.
Finally, Andreas obviously struck a nerve with poor Observer who knee-jerked with a pathetic go at the Danish working class for letting the Nazis invade. C'mon Observer, time to grow up and learn how to respond sensibly to a fair comment.

by I like irony Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:04

'every year Sinn Fein show up and give speeches at Ireland's most embarassing statue'
Not sure which statue you mean, but you have triggered a memory. I remember, either in 1971 or 1972, there was a march to the Sean Russell statue in Fairview Park. The march went from the Five Lamps.
Interesting thing is, it was not the 'Provisionals' who had the march - it was the 'Officials', the great socialists.

by p-J Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:09

The people who post on this site have to be the most politically inept that I have ever seen. They have no concept of the troubles and the work that has been done by Sinn Fein and others to bring about firstly the cessation of violence and then to maintain that cessation. I come from an area called Ardoyne in North Belfast and I am a member of Sinn Fein. In that time over ninety people died in political violence in that area. In St Gabriel’s School in the district over 80 pupils were killed.

I would do anything possible make sure such horrid death never occurs again. Yes I recognize that hurt was caused in the different communities of the six counties. It is the case however, that the suffering of the troubles was universal. Nobody can talk about La Mon or any other event in isolation. The suffering of one community is no greater than that of the other. There is no hierarchy of grieving. The mother who’s son died on active service in the IRA feels the same sense of loss as the RUC man shot on duty. Those who lost loved ones in La Mon feel the same sense of loss as those who were killed in Sean Graham’s bookmakers.

What we must do is move away from the blame game. Put all of our energies into making sure that these events are consigned to the history books. This is a very difficult thing to do. Those who have maybe read a book about the six counties and feel that they understand the situation have a lot to learn. There is deeply felt hurt in both communities which will take along time to heal.

People on the republican side have moved an extremely long way. We sit down with the British government who call us terrorists while they were involved in state run terrorism themselves. We sit down with the representatives of loyalist murder gangs who continue to attack catholic homes. This is deeply distasteful to many republicans, but we do it because we have no choice. We do not have the option of allowing things to go back to the way it was previously. We do it because we cannot let another generation suffer the way the last did. Many people in Ardoyne had three options in their life. 1. Emigrate. 2. Go to the Maze and 3. End up buried in Milltown cemetery. As a member of Sinn Fein I would move heaven and earth to prevent the hurt and misery of the past being revisited on our people. There will be challenges, but nobody should doubt our resolve and the amount of effort we will put into making this work.

Those in the right wing press in Dublin who make unfounded accusations for political gain do two things, they threaten the peace that we have put our sweat and yes tears into. They give scour to those who would have us go back to where we have come from. Do not allow them to destroy what has been painstakingly built. Support this process. Support Sinn Fein.

by Sickeden Wed Apr 14, 2004 13:47

I appreciate the contribution from the SF member from Ardoyne. Does he not realise however that some of us do not want to be routinely lectured about democracy, freedom, justice etc by the provos, Shankill Butchers, UVF el al. I do not want anyone from the gang that kidnapped and butchered Joan McConville telling me how hurt they are. Nor do I want any unionist/loyalist telling me how they are misunderstood while they prorect the killers in their communities. SF members have contributed to, resourced and committed crimes against humanity. McGuinness, Ferris, Kelly and others are unrepentant murderers and until they show some remorse they should keep their mouths shut and let the rest of us get on with our lives. As for all the talk of putting the peace process in jeopardy, cop on!

by I* Wed Apr 14, 2004 14:10

Do you include in that the regular users of the site from sinn-fein. this is a big open house - don't go tarring all wilth same brush just because you disagree with someone - use the comments to argue and change minds. Starting with 'You are all inept' is not a good way to build a dialogue

by question Wed Apr 14, 2004 14:32

what's with the Basque flag in the march?

by p.J Wed Apr 14, 2004 14:41

Dear Sickened,
I do not believe that you understood my post in the slightest. I feel that you obviously have a very jaundiced opinion of republicanism. Yes senior members of the Sinn Fein leadership were involved in the IRA; there is no great secret about that. They were involved in a struggle. That struggle continues. But we are in this process because we do not want to see one more death, we do not want to see a generation locked away. This is serious business we are involved in, it’s the business of saving lives. The bitter sectarianism that destroyed our lives must be broken down.
However, we have in Dublin an establishment who for small electoral gain seek to damage the peace process. If the Minister for justice has evidence of wrongdoing then those individuals should be arrested and prosecuted. He cannot continue to make remarks and do nothing about them.
In order that this country moves on people will have to accept the past, but must also be willing to accept the bona fides of us who want peace. In the six counties we got over 170,000 votes, in the last general election in the south we got over 130,000 votes. We have a mandate, a mandate far greater than the narrow right-wingers in the PD; they must realize that the growth of Sinn Fein is growing voice for peace.
That peace must create an Ireland of equals; it must be a non-sectarian nation. This will challenge, and continues to challenge the Dublin establishment. They know that in the forthcoming elections Sinn Fein will challenge their record and they are doing all in the power to prevent this by creating this smokescreen. Last evening we had Charlie O’Connor talking about Sinn Fein in Tallaght. Talking about “Having a feeling that all is not right with Sinn Fein”. Well I have a feeling that Mr. O’Connor is deeply worried that Sinn Fein will do really well in Dublin South West. I have a feeling de doesn’t want people asking about cuts in education spending, one program cut from 20 hours a week to five for children with learning disabilities in his constituency, or cuts in spending for VTOS programs designed to give people from poorer background the chance to return to education. He certainly doesn’t want to talk about the removal of their childcare payments while they are on these programs. I have a feeling he wants to deflect away attention from the abolition of the first time buyer’s grant, about the people who continue to make millions in land speculation with the support of his party. A feeling he doesn’t want to talk about the tribunals and how Fianna Fail members where involved in bribery, corruption and defrauding the state out of large sums of money. The very things he accuses my party of are the very ones, which his fellow ilk now face in the tribunals, Lawlor etc. I think he wants to avoid talking about Tallaght Hospital, why people lie for hours on end on hospital trolleys while those that stole millions in offshore accounts lie at home in their beds. Its quite obvious why he wants to change the conversation, but he wont be allowed.
Well we are willing to talk about these issues. We stand over our record of opposition to this right wing government. We are standing because we are activists and we will bring about real change. The establishment is creaking because the disadvantaged have a voice. It’s a voice calling for equality, justice, an Ireland of equals. It is a voice, which will not be silenced, it is Sinn Fein.

by p.J. Wed Apr 14, 2004 14:46

I withdraw that. I should say many who only chose to criticize in narrow sectarian ways without any great understanding of the issues are politically inept

by On the road to Omeath there was a three legged dog Wed Apr 14, 2004 14:52

It is not a voice that anyone should be claiming ownership of. Such a claim of ownership is wrongheaded. That's almost on a par with Mick McD claiming the PDs are True Republicans. The last thing this country needs is another totalising movement like the FF one. 'We represent everybody' is used as cover for FF/PD slash and burn tactics. p-j is right about the PDs however. They are an antidemocratic minority wagging the dog from inside the dog. They are extremists.

by I* Wed Apr 14, 2004 14:56

just pointing out that this place is for all comers and it helps if the comers don't make blanket assumptions about who it is they are talking to . . .

by its the elections stupid! Wed Apr 14, 2004 15:00

Its a voice shout which all who want change should and their voice too. We welcome all those opposed to the narrow anti-working class policies of the goverment.
INCLUSIVITY> SORRY>

by Sickened Wed Apr 14, 2004 16:25

I say hurrah for the tribunals. Lets get to the truth about Lawlor, Redmond and the rest. Will we ever see the leading lights in Sinn Fein tell of their exploits. Will we ****!

by Northern Eye Wed Apr 14, 2004 16:38

Just interested how you stand on the issue of state violence, Sickened? Would you work with the British government who carried out some of the worst atrocities of the Troubles and carried out, and continue to carry out, more terrible acts overseas? What about the American government? And what about their supporters in the Irish government, who are complicit in the criminal war in Iraq? Theres not too many parties or governments in this world with clean hands to tell you the truth. Its just some are the aggressors and some the reacters. People need to grow up.

by Dave D Wed Apr 14, 2004 16:52

You don't even need to criticise the IRA to get yourself blown apart. The kids in Warrington never condemned the fascists.

But sure it was all part of the struggle, wasn't it lads?

by P.j Wed Apr 14, 2004 16:52

you dont really have an aurgument. i am starting to think you may not be that smart. ah well - god bless.

by P.j Wed Apr 14, 2004 16:59

Its funny that some people on this site support the fight against imperialism in every other part of the world except Ireland.
By the way DaveD - Time to get out of your time warp and contribute to peace and not stir up sectarian hatred. Your the cause not the solution you gobshite. Did you ever think that maybe if you have nothing better and positive to say rather than harking back to the past, that it might be better to say fuck all?

by Republican Socialist Wed Apr 14, 2004 19:42

I have to agree wholheartedly with p. J. on the issue of internationalism and all of these supposed defenders of the proletariat.

Isn't it funny how the SWP had a long campaign on the setting up of Mumia Abu Jamal in the US, but weren't in the least bit interested in mounting a campaign about the British government's murder of Rosemary Nelson or Pat Finucane. According to their politcally cowed logic, it's only worthwhile putting your head above the parapet when the capitalist enemy is safely away from home.

To those who retort with the specious slurs of "fascist", "criminal", "murderer", I believe you are engaged in a depoliticising and obfuscating discourse that has been used by the British Government, that of "criminalisation". In doing so, in accepting without critical analysis the mantra of the enemy, you play a part in perpetuating its effects, in supporting the discourse Noam Chomsky calls "terrorology". From Palestine to South Africa, from the Basque Country to Algeria, revolutionaries have admired the IRA and sought to emulate them. Some of you supposed socialists might read a little history.

by Sean Cabog Thu Apr 15, 2004 02:16

Yes S.F. are fascists, because they look the way they look and also because they carry the national flag when they march. Also Eoghan Harris, a noted political scientist, and advisor to the Unionist Party, believes they are fascist. And Eoghan Harris is never wrong.

by An Fhuiseog Thu Apr 15, 2004 02:42

They are the political apologists for a terrorist organisation which I narrowly avoided being murdered by.

Ireland would be better off to be free of Sinn Féin/IRA fascists.

Then we really would be free at last.

by Dave D Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:51

Rather pathetic being criticised by a Shinner for harking on about the past, when you're the dickheads dressed in military garb (very menacing you gobshites!) marching through Dublin remembering an event nearly 100 years ago.

"I'm the cause" - how fucking sad, I've never supported the fascist or planted a bomb in the middle of a town

Hand over your semtex dicks, or do you need it for self-defence?




By the way DaveD - Time to get out of your time warp and contribute to peace and not stir up sectarian hatred. Your the cause not the solution you gobshite. Did you ever think that maybe if you have nothing better and positive to say rather than harking back to the past, that it might be better to say fuck all?

by P.j. Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:02

An Fhuiseog,
The first thing I would say is, if you were almost killed by the IRA then you of all people should be seeking to support the peace process. To those on the left I ask them to recall the slurs thrown at the workers party when they started to get a foothold in Dublin and began to give a voice to the working class. Remember the Official IRA issue was trotted out and also some issue over forged US Dollars, which was never substantiated. This, A Chara, is a well-worn policy of the right in order to protect the status quo. They know that the cant argue against the message of equality, they know that they cant stand over their record in government, so rather than argue about the message they attempt to discredit the messenger. This will not work; it will not work because of the caliber of the people joining Sinn Fein. The people joining the party are knowledgeable, articulate and focused on the goal. We are the fastest growing party on the island and the reason for this is quite clear, we (Along with others on the genuine left), are the voice of the disaffected, which encompasses a large section of Irish Society. Do away with inequality, do away with a two tier society, do away with disadvantage and you may get rid of Sinn Fein. But until Irish society changes and we have an Ireland of Equals Sinn Fein are here to stay.

by P.j. Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:10

Having taken the time to read comments you have posted on other issues it is obvious to me that you are most likely a very sad individual with rarely anything positive or productive to say. That is why I believe you are the problem. Be constructive, support peace. Don’t be narrow right wing idiot with no real political ideology. Answer my arguments about this society, contribute to the debate, and don’t constantly spew out the rhetoric that Mc Dowell and other fascists espouse. For gods sake son use your brain.

by Dave D Thu Apr 15, 2004 13:05

I'm not your son, so don't patronise me.

You're right, I rarely have anything positive to say. I only look at the site from time to time, and disagree with most of the propaganda that is passed off as legitimate "independent" news. Most of it wouldn't pass basic journalistic standards, and good reporting on the site is devalued as a result.

I'm generally I happy to look on as the SP slag off the SWP etc etc, but I do have a particuar problem with the Irish 'republican' movement, especially as it claims to represent me, and act in my name. Displays by the "Irish Republican Army" on the streets of Dublin particularly turn my stomach, especially as their leaders then preach about neutrality. As do articles on indymedia supporting this cowardly movement, not least because the site has an international audience. I'm happy just to register that not all Irish people support the goal of these small-minded nationalists.

As regards my own political activity you don't really know what I do or believe in, apart from the fact that I have no time for pro-IRA shite. Hardly a controversial postion.

by Republican Socialist Thu Apr 15, 2004 13:33

You're correct of course, Dave D, that your regressive, specious ideas are "hardly controversial". That's one of the reasons they're wrong.

You crticise Indymedia, which is hardly a controversial criticism, yet by doing so you deflect criticism from a global media industry that actuates exactly what Hitler's aide Goebels had hoped for:

* Rupert Murdoch has a (highly undemocratic) control, worth $5.9 Billion, of media interests worldwide. All 127 of his newspapers supported the war on Iraq? Something fishy there? But his journalist's are "good" journalists, right? His opinions are "hardly controversial". Tony Blair had to do a deal with him in Australia before he was first elected.

* Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian PM suspected to have links to the Mafia, controls a $13.8 Billion media empire. He's the Italian PM, "hardly controversial".

* And not least of all our own media mogul, "Sir" Antony O'Reilly, Euro 1.3 Billion, I believe, controlling two-thirds of Ireland's print media and virulently anti-Sinn Féin. His opinions are "hardly controversial".

If you continue to support the tyranny of what is "hardly contoversial", of the normative, hegemonic modes of thought that pass for righteousness, then you are uncritically accepting the criminality (think Tom Gilmartin + Bertie), the inequality (think Ireland as having the second highest gap between rich and poor on the OECD Index of industrialised nations), the inefficiency (think of nearly everything to do wioth this state) that are, in the mainstream media, "hardly controversial".

If you were nearly killed by the IRA, I genuinely sympathise and wish that this did not happen. However, which party on this island is most likely to combat these wrongs? It is a party that is highly controversial.

Yours, with respect,

Republican Socialist.

by P.j. Thu Apr 15, 2004 13:56

Yet again you have failed to get the point. You fail to understand why this party is growing. You have no idea of what republicanism is and what it stands for. You have no concept of what a peace process is and what we are trying to achieve. All of the main political organizations have come from a history of violence. For gods sake when Dev entered the Dail with his party they did so with revolvers down their trousers. Thats the past however, and that’s where it should remain. Garret Fitzgerald’s father was in the IRA, Killed many, even McDowell’s uncle was hanged. What we need to do is move away from blame games, move away from who did what. There is enough wrong in our society at the moment to occupy our attentions without indulging in useless recriminations about the past. When individuals such as yourself call into question Sinn Fein, ask yourself the question, Why did almost 310,000 people in the last two polls vote Sinn Fein, why have we become the largest Nationalist party in the north, the largest pro-agreement party. The answer is quite obvious. We represent a progressive, radical alternative to what has gone before. You sadly Sir represent the past, move on. The right wings DAY HAS COME AND GONE IN THIS COUNTRY.

by By Any Means Necessary Thu Apr 15, 2004 14:12

There will always be a pacifist arguement against the use of violence, what sickens me is the hypocrisy of those that condemn anti-colonialist struggles yet happily forget what caused this "violence ".
No one needs a history lesson on Ireland's past. Yet no one has yet to base a anti-IRA arguement on the premise that the six counties was a democratic place where every one lived in harmony..before the IRA started their "murderous campaign".

by Northern Eye Thu Apr 15, 2004 18:57

An Fhuiseog: I was just interested to know in what context the IRA tried to kill you?

by Gerard Thu Jul 15, 2004 20:23

I by chance stumbled into this board and was intrigued by some contributions, as they clearly reflect part of the reason why this struggle is still not laid to rest; it's the mentality some people in here (and unfortunately out there) inherited or rather copied without putting it to test against own reason.

To: P.J. - on whatever he said so far

I have come across quite a number of politicians over the years, never mind the colouring. Of those being members of political minorities I have figured that they - without exception - tend to act like 'wounded dogs': they tend to bark at everyone moving "just wait till I'm fine; then I'll show you". This is not yet criticism, it's just an observation. Fact is, people don't elect a party or a particular politician because they believe their promises - these times are long gone -, but in order to teach those in power a lesson. No sensible voter believes that any one politician is a political magician; voters aren't that stupid - not in general, at least. As for yourself, it's strikes me funny that you accuse others - like, say, Dave D - of being not positive or constructive, or tell them to stop shifting the blame for this or that, while you do exactly this, yourself. Wouldn't it be a nice change, and very enlightening too, I assume, if you told us of your personal view of a peaceful and prosperous - and perhaps united - Ireland and how and when it could come to finally happen, without pointing out that everything is everyone else's fault. One of the reasons, I deem, why the messenger is blamed for the message is because he acts like a very unpleasant person who pretends to know it all. People want to learn, but they refuse to be lectured on end, especially if the lecturing holds nothing unheard of so far.
You are certainly right, saying that the sense of loss a bereft person feels is of like quality, no matter on which side of the street they happen to live, but that's not the kind of equality we are talking about, do we? Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to read enough of your posts to figure whether you're a common member of SF or in fact a politician, even though like a politician you certainly argue.
Some one adviced some one else here to learn a bit of history, so why don't you show them of what "calibre" SF supporters are, and tell them how come IRA was doing what they did or why the peace process got stuck (and, IMHO, will be stuck for another couple of years to come) regardless of how well SF or the IRA may behave.
And when you're at it, tell them that equality (the one of the original SF slogan) is a nice idea, but won't happen any time soon, unless people stop thinking party policy or in terms of British/Irish or Orange/Green or Unionism/Nationalism or Protestant/Catholic. And don't forget to mention that this equality is one thing and Socialism some thing else. Do SF a favour and tell us what being Irish means, rather then telling us how non-Irish FF or whoever acts. If you are convinced of what you say, you'll manage to convince us, too ...

To: Dave D - "Response"

A relatively small number of people marching in orderly manner through Dublin, remembering an event "nearly 100 years ago" (88 years, actually) is not less comprehensible but certainly less "menacing" than a relatively great number of people marching on a route deliberately chosen to lead through Catholic sectors in order to humiliate helpless people, remembering an event 314 years ago. What's more, it's safe to assume all of the first know why they are marching, while a vast majority of the latter have no clue what event in particular they keep commemorating. That's what I call a disgrace.

To: Sean Cabog - "Yes"

Wouldn't you be surprised, if an advisor to the Unionist Party were not of the opinion that SF are fascists? Mr. Harris may be an extraordinary political scientist, and if he only *believes* what you say he does, he can't certainly be wrong. How can anyone rightfully question anyone else's belief? As for yourself, to state someone were fascist because they look the way they do or they carry the national flag while marching, is somewhat brain-free reasoning. I'm sure you can do better than this, or at least I hope so.

by P.j Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:51

You have posed some very good questions; I will answer them as soon as i get a chance. At the moment I don't have the opportunity.

by Gerard Mon Jul 19, 2004 13:22

I certainly didn't mean to shut everyone on this board up; my only intention was to make some people think things over, before they start to call individuals or organizations names.
Since I dared one of you to sketch his ideas of how the white of the tricolour could really connect the two parties one of these days, rather than separating them, for us, I think it only fair to make a start, and perhaps give a reasonable discussion some boost.
Unlike 'By Any Means Necessary', I do think that a bit of historical knowledge is due in order to understand the state of things.
The IRA's position on the contentious issue of the deadlock, the non-decommissioning of arms, is rather comprehensible if we consult historical knowledge and some common sense:
In 1916 the (original) IRA offered negotiations in order to stop the loss of innocent lives and to halt the devastation of Dublin. Brig. Gen. Lowe demanded unconditional surrender. The only terms he would accept. We know the results.
When the no-first-strike policy was issued, it was an offer towards negotiating terms. The British reply? "You have to decommission all arms before any terms can be negotiated" - unconditional surrender, in other words. What's to come from it, no one can actually say.
So how are the IRA supposed to decide?
If SF, or rather Gerry Adams, manage to talk them into giving in, and the outcome is not as expected, which is very likely, they risk another split of the movement (see Irregulars), and Gerry Adams may share Michael Collins' fate. IRA has already split into numerous factions, and Gerry Adams has been accused of "selling out" or "betraying the movement" by several 'Irregulars", too.
If they get what they actually fought for (a 32-county Ireland), the Unionists will feel betrayed and raise hell. The struggle were to continue and the IRA had given up all their defence.
Don't get me wrong on this, but from their point of view, the British government is not a trustworthy lot, and never was.

by Rooster Tue Jul 20, 2004 23:18

by observer Monday, Apr 12 2004, 10:13pm

The organisation of which 90% of the International Brigase who went to Spain to fight Franco were members of or former members of.

90% of the international brigade were sin feinners? Bollox go back to school and learn some math dipstick!

Maybe if the Danish working class had such an organisation you might not have surrenedered so cravenly in 1940 :))))

Coming from the southern Irish who hid under the umbrella of british protection and directed at the danes who were occupied for four/five years by the nazis! It's a bit rich!

by Rooster Wed Jul 21, 2004 00:32

A relatively small number of people marching in orderly manner through Dublin, remembering an event "nearly 100 years ago" (88 years, actually) is not less comprehensible but certainly less "menacing" than a relatively great number of people marching on a route deliberately chosen to lead through Catholic sectors in order to humiliate helpless people, remembering an event 314 years ago. What's more, it's safe to assume all of the first know why they are marching, while a vast majority of the latter have no clue what event in particular they keep commemorating. That's what I call a disgrace.

Well, I'm an orangeman so what is it that I don't understand about the commemoration?
The tricolor shows the green of republicanism and the orange of loyalism? and the white represents the peace that exists between them? Then why wave the flag about when its obvious that the republican movement have no time for loyalists/protestants/british people living on the island, don't they understand that they are the last and only obstacle to reunification?

by Nordie Wed Jul 21, 2004 01:06

Yes, but peace can only be built on respect and Orangemen marching through catholic neighbourhoods without a care for the opinions of the residents is not showing respect. The peace of the tricolour should not be taken as a 'lie down croppies' peace but a real, mature adult one without hypocrisy and bigotry and a recognition of each others differences. The OO just see all of the North as their exclusive domain which they can use to show dominance over the pesky taigs. If they would ever forget their outrageous sense of arrogance for a moment and actually sit down and talk with the residents (as they seem to have no problem talking to loyalist gunmen and drug dealers) then I'm sure something would be worked out. Otherwise its eternal conflict. But, of course, thats what the dinosaurs of the DUP need to survive.

Imagine the craic if the annual Easter parades were to go near a Loyalist stronghold.

Ah sure, what would the Orange do withot the taigs to hate? These master-races always need to feel superior over someone.

by Gerard Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:13

Rooster, I didn't say *none* of the marchers know what the story is, but "a vast majority". A large poll was conducted during the march a couple of years ago. It turned out that some 85% couldn't tell what particular event was commemorated. Perhaps some of them just said so in order to hide that they actually didn't care, but I doubt that this makes it look better.
If you pardon my saying so, I have a feeling that your question is not genuine, but rather posed for the sake of an argument. Your being an orangeman does make you neither right nor wrong by default. To cherish tradition is basically a good thing, I believe, but it shouldn't be used for political means. I assume you know quite well what the tricolour is meant to express: the hope that old and new tradition may be united in peace.
I'm very much with Nordie, when he claims respect being the basis of this recipe, and, personally, I would add a generous pinch of common sense, too.
I wouldn't expect any trouble, if the orangemen had some sort of peaceful memorial service, flag parade, speeches and a bit of craic outside Drogheda each year - even a representation of the battle were better than - excuse the expression - pissing off the defeated.
There is a reason why in Dublin police is only necessary to assure the orderly conduct of the event, while you guys need it for your own security.
But I doubt that a master-race attitude is responsible for all this. I even doubt that this is supposed to be a show of force. A good number of the marchers just need to reassure themselves that the political status quo is still intact. They probably fear their social (and especially economical) situation may get worse without British protection. If Ulster were as prosperous as in the days of old, every July saw only a small band of the Order in the street, dwelling in memories. But the question is whether this protection were actually necessary, if some people could eventually get themselves to retire from political anachronism. The Irish have proven over and over again that assimilation is possible. They can properly do with changes. What they can't do with is restriction. What do you think would happen, Rooster, if they gave up Ulster, say, tomorrow?

by c0mplaint Wed Aug 18, 2004 01:22 ianbreslin at hotmail dot com

I have to say that some of the comments I have read here are sickening.

As a member of the Irish Republic, I am in the internal debt of the past generation who have died for my freedom, for my right to vote. I have an obligation to march to commemorate the dead. Those who do not march for the simple reason that "its too early in the morning" or "I can't be bothered" really are betraying those who died. I look at my country and see part of it under occupation. Occupation! Here is an illegal force on my island which continues its policies of collusion and reprisals to this very day!

For those who do not know, the north is not a equal state. The way you vote for example. You can own a maximum of 6 votes per person, that is if you own enough land. That’s right, there is no "1 vote for 1 man". No, no, no. That would be equality.

The British and Irish governments continue to deny the rise of SF because they are afraid of change because they are right wing, and will try every stunt in the political nasty book to try and slow that growth. I saw a paper recently with the headline "SF Growth Threatens US investment", what total BS! There is no way to prove that statement! There is no basis for it either. It is the continuing right wing madness which has gripped the worlds media!

I fully intend joining Sinn Féin once I finish school and I fully intend on making my contribution to the freedom of the Irish Republic. I also fully intend working along side Unionists and Loyalists to achieve these goals, otherwise it would not be a state of equality. I look to the successful year Alex Maskey as Mayor in Belfast to be an example of how Unionists can live within a United Ireland

Tiocfaidh ár Lá

by shinner Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:55

Hear Hear c0mplaint, Well said, good man you will be welcome in the party any time.

by ISABEL Thu Apr 07, 2005 22:59

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERNED
I AM SPANISH AND I AM A PERSON VERY IN LOVE WITH IRELAND. I HAVE VISITED IRELAND (DUBLIN AND BELFAST) SEVERAL TIMES. I WAS WITH MY HUSBAND IN IRELAND LAST EASTER. WE SAW THE SINN FEINN MEMBERS WALKING BY THE DUBLIN STREETS. BOTH MY HUSBAND AND I SHOWED A REAL RESPECT FOR ALL OF THEM BECAUSE I REALLY KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS ABOUT. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY A WORD: IF WE, LIKE SPANISH RESPECT ALL OF YOU DO IN ORDER TO GET A UNITED NATION, WHY ARE YOU KEEPING ON INSULTING US AS WE WERE TERRORISTS? WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN SOMETHING: SPAIN IS A UNITED NATION. EVERY REGION IN SPAIN HAS MORE RIGHTS THAT ULSTER ITSELF HAS. WE ONLY NEED THAT BASQUES STOP KILLING US BECAUSE WE HAVE NEVER DONE SUCH A BAD THING. AN ADVISE: READ AND WATCH SPANISH NEWS OR BETTER COME TO SPAIN AND LIVE WITH THE FEAR TO BE KILLED BY A BASQUE PERSON WHO HAS A LOT OF RIGHTS LIKE THE NAZI PARTY HAD A LOT OF DECADES AGO. IF YOU KEEP SUPPORTING KILLERS WHY WE HAVE TO THINK THAT YOU ARE DIFFERENT? I THINK IT WOULD BETTER FOR ALL THE IRISH PEOPLE THAT YOU THOUGHT MORE ABOUT THEM (BECAUSE THEY REALLY NEED IT) AND LESS IN SUPPORTING A GANG OF KILLERS WHO HAS MURDERED ABOUT 900 PEOPLE IN THE LAST YEARS. IRELAND IS A GREAT COUNTRY AND IT DESERVES THE BEST, BUT NOT TO BE A SETTLEMENT FOR MAD KILLERS. FROM SPAIN WITH ALL MY LOVE AND I HOPE TO BE THERE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, BUT PLEASE STOP INSULTING SPANISH PEOPLE. WE DON'T DESERVE THAT.

by Barry Thu Apr 07, 2005 23:31

" the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland , and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies to be SOVEREIGN and INDEFEASIBLE."

As Sinn Fein have accepted the GFA, and with it the unionist veto and continuance of the British occupation, they stand in total contradiction to theproclamation read on the steps of the GPO in 1916.

Francie Molloy made Sinn Feins position very clear on Easter 1999 when he stated " we have accepted partition, we are prepared to administer British rule for the forseeable future"

The men and women of Easter week fought to uphold Irish sovereignty ( "we..proclaim the establishment of the Irish republic as a Sovereign Independent state"). By supporting the GFA Sinn Fein promote the biggest obstacle to date to Irish sovereignty. They stand in opposition to the very issue of sovereignty which the 1916 martyrs died for.

I would dearly love to hear the Sinn Fein supporters here (especially the fucking apolitical clown who boasts what a good job they have done in squashing dissent)

a) identify what the main obstacles to Irish sovereignty actually are in the current political context

b) identify clearly what Sinn Fein and its partners in nationalism are going to do to overcome these obstacles.

What is your position on sovereignty, the root cause of this centuries old conflict ?

by Al Fri Apr 08, 2005 00:26

Theres only one reason why SF dont recognise the government that has been elected by the people of the Republic of Ireland, its not them.
Thats it in a nutshell, if SF dont recognise it then why stand in the elections? If they dont recognise it then they are denying the wishes of the people of this nation. You can argue all you want but the majority of this nation voted for the present government.
Lets remember that SF and the IRA dont recognise either the Gardai or the defence forces either. No, they dont like such annoying things as trials and defences to get in the way of a nice punishment beating.
As for history, in the 30s it was the IRA that were being beaten back by the Gardai and a now defunk organisation called the Blueshirts. Try to remember, the defence forces and the officer command of An garda Siochana originated in the original IRA.
As for Hitler, he actually drew up a document called 'Operation Emerald' to invade Ireland and give the Germans a strategic placement to invade Britain but abandoned it to concentrate on Russia as he felt that Britain could wait, the IRA were the inside men for this operation.
If anyone doesnt believe me about these facts they can freely read about them in any decent library.
Going back to 1916. How can the government show the true heroes of the IRA their gratitude when the organisation and its political cover reject them as traitors? Can anyone honestly say that such a gesture would be welcomed? It would just mean that SF and the IRA have to attack from a different angle. How can we love the men and women that died in the name of Ireland when the organisation they built has betrayed them so much?
I believe in a united Ireland, I love my country but I spit on those that polute the memory of 1916 by murdering in the name of the cause. You do not represent myself or the majority of this nation. That is why you will never obtain democratic leadership of this nation.

by Noel Fri Apr 08, 2005 00:36

"As a member of the Irish Republic, I am in the internal debt of the past generation who have died for my freedom, for my right to vote. I have an obligation to march to commemorate the dead".

So c0mpliant, does that include the thousands of brave Irishmen who fought for the Allies against the Nazis?
Or does their sacrifice not warrant your gratitude?

We are truly free because of the bravery of those soldiers who fought that tyranny.

by Barry Fri Apr 08, 2005 00:39

and the state itself as legitimate. They DO recognise the guards as well.
they recognise the northern state as legitimate and are on the verge of signing up to the PSNI/RUC as well.

now, any chance of a reply from a shinner to my 2 questions above ?

by Al Fri Apr 08, 2005 01:00

Barry,
Im not sure what you are saying here, that Sinn Fein do recognise the state and the Gardai? If that is what you were saying then you were not at the march listening. I was, if you are curious then I will refresh your memory, I was the Garda standing to the right of the podium and I heard quite clearly the comments made. DO NOT recognise the government and as a finishes joke made the following comment "I urge you all to support the real law of this country, thats not the Gardai" Erm, that doesnt sound like we are recognised.
As for the questions you post. A simple answer is not possible as you surely must be aware.
It is simple not feasable to incorporate the north into the republic at this stage however I will attempt to answer your questions. The biggest obstacles are the ENTIRE terrorist cells. Killing innocent people and revenge attacks will not bring about a solution. However most IRA men are simple criminals as their actions in the last 5 years can no longer be hidden behind 'the cause'.
How would I solve the problem? How would you? I do not believe that a solution along the lines that you are looking is possible. However a good start would be to put down the gun and stop robbing banks.
I will remind every person here that the money taken is yours and mine.

by Barry Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:20

Sinn Fein accepted the legitimacy of the 26co state in 1986.
Since then they signed the GFA , which recognises the northern state. They have also gone on record and encouraged people to pass information to the guards.

That they continue to act in breach of the GFA and break the laws of states whose authority they have accepted says much about their leaderships hypocrisy But the fact stands they have recognised the validity and institutions of both states , which is the primary reason I take nothing to do with them.

Ill ignore youre waffle about "terrorist cells", as the biggest one on this island is 17,000 strong, armed to the teeth with helicopter gunships and armoured cars and continues to occupy the northern part of this nation , illegally.
(by the way guard, is there any progress into the cases were they murdered dozens of innocent people south of the border yet ? Any chance of finding out how the files concerning these mass murders just "vanished "?)

My questions are simple, and directed at Sinn Fein and their supporters.

a) please identify what the obstacles to Irish sovereignty are in the current political context

b) please outline what sinn fein and its partners in nationalism intend to do about these obstacles.

Are they still committed to Irish sovereignty , or is it on the back burner ?

by LOL Fri Apr 08, 2005 14:05

and then lets see if you're recognised.

by AL Fri Apr 08, 2005 23:03

In response to Barry, at what stage in my post did I defend either the British army or the RUC? You take what I say and then twist it. Guns and voilence will not solve anything. You appear to dislike surrent SF but still back the IRA and yet above all that seem to be an intelligent person. You truly baffle me.

Lol,
Where would you like my picture? And which one? Maybe one outside my house with my family and my car in the background? If you look real hard you can just make out the car.

by Barry Sat Apr 09, 2005 00:26

Youre right that I dont support the current SF leadership. I particularly dislike how basic , unadulterated criminality has under their stewardship led to the name of republicanism becoming discredited and associated in the public mind with corruption, sleaze and brutal thuggery.

The only IRA that I recognise as a true republican organisation is one which utterly opposes the British occupation of this country. The provisional movement doesnt fit that criteria any longer. Its activities , especially given the political stance of its leadership have no validity . They are not fighting any type of war against British occupation, and never will again , so its fund raising activities can only be for the personal benefit of its leadership and a small criminal clique.

As the republican activist and commentator Anthony McIntyre pointed out recently, the bulk of Sinn Fein members are NOT involved in criminality , but they blindly support a criminal leadership. It wasnt McDowell or "securocrats" who criminalised provisional republicanism, but leadership sleaze and their active toleration and encouragement of apolitical thuggery and greed.

The 1916 leaders made clear their views on this subject... "we pray that no-one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice , inhumanity or rapine".

However Al , Im not trying to twist your words. You claimed "terrorist cells" are the obstacle to acheiving what the men of 16 fought for - the sovereignty of the Irish nation , free from British dominion. Ive simply pointed out that British rule on this island is established and maintained in the primary instance by the threat and use of overwhelming military force and terror.

The root cause of all the conflict on this island is, and always has been this illegal occupation and denial of our rights as a nation under international law - full sovereignty.

I dont believe in blind militarism as a response to this. Other ways MUST be found to acheive what is ours as of right . Thats why Im asking those who claim they support or are working for Irish sovereignty , to clearly identify the obstacles to it . If they will identify those obstacles then I would like to know what the plan is to surmount them , or if they have any ideas at all in this regard.

But the sad fact is , that as long as British rule remains in place here the conditions for armed conflict remain. Armed resistance to their hated presence will be inevitable.

The only way this can be avoided in my opinion is for Irish people who say they want a united Ireland to clearly state so and take positive action in that regard. One way to approach this is by supporting the submission made to the UN making the case for Irish sovereignty and highlighting the illegal nature of British occupation. But this on its own is insufficient . People must debate this subject rationally , and free from either republican histrionics as well as blind obedience to political cliques.

Whatever ones view on this subject , there is no rational basis to believe that British rule can be ended by accepting it or collaborating with it. The sooner a real debate begins on this subject the better.

By the way , it speaks volumes that the only person thus far to engage me in debate on this (as opposed to narrow minded abuse) is a member of An Garda Siochana.

The normally vocalshinner contingent must be very busy , probably down their local pie shop.

Eating all the pies.

by Al Sat Apr 09, 2005 03:47

Barry,
You had better be very careful because I think we might actually agree on this subject. Probable not 100% but close enough. If Im reading you right then what your saying is you believe in the cause and you believe in the true IRA but not in SF or the current IRA. If I have read this right then you sound like a patriotic Irishman and theres never been anything wrong with that.
By the way, this is probable the closest I have come to an intelligent debate as apposed to the usual insults.

by Barry Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:36

cost nothing

by Barry Mon Apr 11, 2005 16:28

"you can own a maximum of 6 votes if you own enough land . There is no 1 man, one vote . no, no no that would be equality" .

Sorry to point this out to you, but that is not the case. It certainly was the case many years ago, hence the civil rights movement and the slogan one man one vote.

However this law was done away with in a British government review of its colony in 1970 , so its a bit surprising you are unaware of this, and that the other shinners on the board never pointed it out either.

Ironically enough I remember doing election work for Sinn Fein years ago, and quite a few people had 5 or 6 votes, and owned no land at all. Some of them werent even 18 years old and eligible to vote either, but there you go.

I agree with you that the occupation of this country is illegal, and its heartening to see you point this out.

Unfortunately Sinn Fein no longer hold to that position and its leaders actively collaborate with that occupation. If the occupation is illegal, as you rightly point out , so too are its institutions, such as the British Stormont parliament which SF are desperate to have revived. As are the forces of occupation, such as the PSNI which SF are only weeks away from signing up to and encouraging people to join.

Alex Maskey whom youre so fond of even attends commemorations to the same occupation forces which kept our own people down and armed and organised death squads here.

If you can happily reconcile these diametrically opposed realities, and still logically claim to be working against the very forces the sinn fein leadership collaborate with, youll have mastered the art of the incredible, and taken self denial to a whole new level. That should make you an ideal sf recruit. Just dont ask questions or voice your own opinion on anything, and youll go far.