Pat Rabbitte and Labour Not Opposing Referendum

by LY member Fri Apr 16, 2004 18:47

i really don't see how slagging off the labour party is helping the campaign. how many of the people who are posting these negative comments are actually committed to the campaign?
as for the person who said that its better for the working-class movement if the labour party isn't involved, you clearly don't really care to see this referendum defeated, or else you wouuld welcome as much help as possible.
LY is not a careerist movement. its members give up their time to promote what they believe in.
it's easy to judge and slur from the sidelines.
cop on and come to the meeting tomorrow.

by MIM Tue Apr 13, 2004 14:12

'LY activist' these are all commendable positions and actions that were taken by the LY full time organiser over the last few years NOT LY as a whole.

On the whole LY is another careerist youth wing of an establishment party. People jon LY to launch their career in Labour not to build socialism or engage in working class struggle. LY on the whole is dominated by these types, just look at Frank Milling in Cork (who defends fascists while leading the campaign to ban socialists from UCC) or Ross Higgins in Dublin (who as vice president in UCDSU voted to condemn people protesting against fees and also mocked those students claiming the grant in the college press)

by MIM Tue Apr 13, 2004 14:07

Of course I'd support any people attempting witihn LY/LP to reclaim it and shove it the right direction. What I would say though is that you are wasting your time and are fighting a losing battle. You might push them to campaign for a No vote but you wont turn them into a socailist working class organisation. Labour have long sold out and are seen by working class people as another sell out establishment party, and they are right. Apart from the handful of genuine activists Labour are a party that are made up of the liberal middle class, small business and the union bureacracy.

by LY activist Tue Apr 13, 2004 14:04

I know its not relevant to this thread, but given that people are spreading mistruths on this thread..

The official position of Labour Youth is to support non violent direct action at Shannon (as well as other peaceful tactics such as boycotting TOP Oil) just as our members have also participated officially in NVDA at Faslane and Sellafield as well as Shannon.

Labour Youth members who have participated in NVDA at Shannon did so with the fulll support of Labour Youth. In fact we sent out a press release when our then chair Manus Bree was arrested at Shannon for taking part in a mass trespass.

But the point isn't about what the parties have done or not done in Shannon, its what people who are non aligned have done that really matters.

And the same goes for this referendum. It can be defeated if enough people get organised, whether they are in parties or not.

by An Craoibhin Aoibhinn Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:42

How can it be sectarian to have a go at the Labour Party. Sectarianism is putting your group ahead of other working class organisations at the detriment of the workers' movement. The Labour Party and Labour Youth not in the workers' movement. They are beorgeois organisations. It's actually in the interests of the workers' movement to exclude them as much as possible.

by LY Member Tue Apr 13, 2004 02:39

Campaign Against the Racist Referendum Meeting on Saturday - 4 Labour Youth activists and some other Party members, 1 token Mili. There are some of us trying to shove Labour around on the issue. Stop the secterianism and give us your support.

by MIM Mon Apr 12, 2004 17:24

If the Labour Party do end up opposing the referendum (personally I don't think they will) and there is a broad group established that everyone can affiliate to (again not a certainty as CARR's name wont see any party other than the SWP affiliate) then like ANV and other issues then the SP will I am sure co-operate with teh LP on this single issue. However in saying this the SP will I am sure argue that the best way to oppose the referendum is on class based arguments not the woolly 'we're all equal', love-in, liberal arguments that the 'left' in the LP will argue for. Also it has to be said that it is cuts in public services like housing, health, education, social welfare etc that fuels and whips up racism. This is it's root cause. When LP were in power they implemented cuts and they will in the future if elected into power, they are wedded to the restraints of capitalism. That is why the LP are limited in their ability to really tackle racism. This has to be said, you can't lie to the people, and I am sure the SP will critisise the LP in this manner on the doorsteps in June.

As for Shannon, Labour Youth were not in Shannon on March 1st. Labour and Labour youth had boycotted the event and held their own counter demo in Dublin. There was literally no more than 3 LY members at Shannon, they were there on their own steam and I am sure if HQ heard about them being there they'd be very angry indeed.

by steve Sun Apr 11, 2004 01:19

let the referendum go ahead and see to what degree racism really exists in our country.

by Annoyed Sat Apr 10, 2004 21:25

By his way of thinking you couldnt oppose any evil properly unless you oppose all others. This campaign is about racism - thats it. If you try and drag in 100 other issues then you are going to have a very small campaign.

The SP can work in the IAWM and AFC with Labour. Why cant they do so in CARR?

Just try and understand what a Single Issue Campaign is: its about opposing one thing, and uniting solely to oppose that. Trying to bring your entire political program into every campaign is an infantile disorder.

by Hebe Sat Apr 10, 2004 20:51

Just pointing out that this thread is about racism . If the SP are going to raise coalition and partnership then Shannon can be raisaed. Labour Youth members were face to face withe cops when Higgins made his infamous Virtual Warriors statement.

But none of the above is relevant to this thread. Why dont you for once just concentrate on the issue at hand. Follow the advice of HS.

by pc Sat Apr 10, 2004 18:50

hey pat c on anyone does carr have any text on this have been looking but havn't found clear short explaination on his....


fearful of going down the calling it simple a racist referendum

does ivana have some blurb on it she doens't on her site

by hs - sp Sat Apr 10, 2004 18:38

just heard about this on the BBC today. Its fucking incredible, i wish everyone luck in opposing this completely racist legislation, as for socialists, if we can't convince people in the labour party to oppose it there's not much chance of winning the referendum.
Pat C. is right, less silly remarks and more talking to the labour party. I think they could be talked round. I see in the picture Joe Higgins doesn't have any problems sharing a platform with labour on this issue, and why should he, you don't have to be an anarchist or communist to believe people born in Ireland are irish. Its just plain old fashioned common sense!

by MIM Sat Apr 10, 2004 17:25

At least the SP participated in Shannon protests on March 1. If you think back it was the Labour Party that fed the media's reactionary flames by distancing themselves from Shannon and holding a counter demo in Stephen's Green with the Greens and a few others. It was also the Labour Party that published leaflets saying that they would back a war 'with UN backing' and that they were in favour of 'sanctions to solve the WMD problem'.

"Anyones position on partnership, coalition etc is totally irrelevant to this thread"

I don't think it is. You'd like it to be I'm sure though. The fact is that to oppose racism the only effective way is to oppose the causes of racism ie the lack of decent housing, jobs, public services. The Labour Party, Fine Gael etc through coalition and partnership have a fine record in attacking public services and workers living conditions so I don't see how they can effectivly, with authority, fight the causes of racism.

by Hebe Sat Apr 10, 2004 16:28

If its ok to raise Labours position on coalition, Nice and partnership then I'm sure the editors will agree its also legitimsate to raise the fact that the SP cant be trusted because they opposed direct action at Shannon, Higgins in particular cant be trusted because he called activists virtual warriors.The SP also have a dodgy record on oposing Orange Parades.

Now the above didnt really help did it?

Why not keep this thread to oposing racism.

Anyones position on partnership, coalition etc is totally irrelevant to this thread.

by F Thu Apr 08, 2004 21:49 newsforthedeaf at yahoo dot com

Hey Rayo,
have you got a name for the 'race card guru'.
I think Rabbite also mentioned that he spoke at a PD meeting?

If the cynical reason behind the timing of the referendum gets highlighted
it could show the electorate how they're being manipulated.

by humpty dance Thu Apr 08, 2004 19:36

Which is why having such a referendum on the same day as elections is playing the race card.

Good on SF for coming out and doing what is right rather than what is popular.

Mick McDowell
and Enoch Powell
sitting on a wall
But if mick McDowell
or Enoch Powell
should accidentally fall
There would be one less racist
sitting on the wall

by Chris Coady Thu Apr 08, 2004 19:26

I heard the interview with Rabbite and I would hazard a guess (educational or otherwise), that the Labour Party may think this is a vote LOSER!!
Any takers?

by Patrick Paterson Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:48

Minister McDowell has commented on the opposition parties on thier support, or not for the referendum.

He says that Fine Gael will be likely to support the referendum after they stop argueing over the timing and proceedure of the Dail vote.

He says that there is "no clear indication from the Labour Party" as to where they stand on the issue. He says that he does not "know where the Greens are at this stage".

by 'trot' Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:32

Unlike 'trot' groups members of the Labour Party have differing opinions on coalition and partnership. Thats what you find in normal capitalist parties. The 'trot' parties are parties that have some principles and are not willing to sell out their working class supporters for a nice government job and a limo, that is why they oppose partnership and coalition.

by tradeunionist Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:05

Ivana is a member of the Labour Party, she is standing as a candidate for them in the upcoming elections. She supports the leadership of the party including their line on coalitions, partnership and so on. She may have seemed to be the most factually prepared person at the conference but she is by no means the best politically at it.

by trusty Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:38

People can remember when Labour supported the Nice Treaty despite at the start of the first campaign making noises against the treaty. How can we trust Labour this time? They have continually lied and broken promises....

Remember the 'we wont go into coalition with Fianna Fail under ANY circumstances'.... 'we oppose tax amnesties for the rich'... 'we oppose double taxation'.....

by Manus - lp Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:05

FF/PDs have spounted out a few figures about births of non-nationals and can base a referendum on this!

If there is abuse give us the evidence not some statistics!

How widespread is the abuse?

If there is some abuse, how proportional is a constitutional referendum to the combate this?

Why can't criminal legislation be brought in to combat the trafficing of pregnant women?

It has been 6 years since the Consitiution was changed in this matter. 6 years when FF/PDs were in power. How come all of a sudden has this issue been such a priority? They passed the buck regarding property rights and how to combate the price housing by means of a 2nd Oireachtas report, when the opposition called for a referendum!

When they were asked to enshrine economic and social rights, and housing rights in the constitution they refused.

This time last year many in the anti-war movement were calling on the government to enshrine Irish Neutrality in the constitution and again they ignorned these calls.

Again FF and PDs have brought democratic politics to a new level. The Labour Party and other opposition parties should do there utmost to stop this referendum and postpone this debate this after the election. If not, it cold get dirty, and FF could benefit electorally at the expense of SF, LP and the SP.

It is not going to be an easy issue to deal with on the door steps.

by Pied Piper Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:49

Then they have allowed themselves to be trumped by the race card and deserve a good public pieing.

by Rayo - lp Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:45

FF got PR advice that the "Immigration' issue is an important election winners in working class areas and would put SF, Lab and SP in an awkard position if the referendum was on tha same day as the election.

This is why the proposal has arisen so suddenly!

by pat c Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:45

Then you should join CARR. You wont defeat it by making cheap points with attacks on the LP on Indymedia. Take the advice and lobby Labour Party HO. You are not helping the campaign with the sort of comments here.

Spend your time more productively by coming along to the next CARR meeting .

The next meeting of the Campaign Against the Racist Referendum takes place on Saturday 10 April @ 3pm in the Teachers' Club, 36 Parnell Square, Dublin 1

Campaign Against the Racist Referendum
12a Brunswick place, Dublin 2
email: [email protected]
087 7974622 or 087 6662060

by F Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:36

Labour seem to be more concerned about FF/PD gaining votes?

During Dail opposition
Labour's Rabbite accused PD Harney
of going ahead with a referendum on citizenship
following the advice of a US guru
who claimed the immigration issue would help the govt. in the other elections.

Anyone got any details on the 'race card guru' ?

by LY Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:27

I think Killian has reacted in a positive spirit. Its a good idea to lobby Labour HQ in a politic manner about this.


You can make your comments directly at-
http://www.labour.ie/feedback/contact.tmpl

Labour Head Office:

Address:
17 Ely Place
Dublin 2

Tel:+353 1 6784700
Fax:+353 1 6612640

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

by Patrick Paterson Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:23

Costello's press release criticises the Government's approach to ramming it through the dail. This is right to criticise. But it by no means should be the ONLY thing to criticise them on. The Labour party (incl Joe Costello) are going to "seek legal advice" before making up their minds as its "not a matter of yes and no".

Well guys it is a matter for Yes and No. Do you oppose it or not!

People talk about a left alliance against this proposal. But it looks like Labour will not neccessarily oppose the Referendum! Even if they do it's likely to be on the basis of timing, and lack of debate. What about the issue of the Govt blaming immigrants for poor health service!

Labour: get off the fence!

by Killian Forde Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:01

I heard the interview with Rabitte on R1 and found it a little worrying that he couldn't just be clear that Labour would oppose the referendum. However I think that the reactive comments like above will only ensure that a broad campaign will be limited. So lets not be beating each other up before any campaign is started.

This referendum is a chance for the various wings of the left to unite, if it is to be an effective No campaign all groups and political parties need to feel ownership over the group.

I presume most of us agree that a broad front with a clear, consistent and well thought out argument offers the best chance to defeat this. If so then lest buckle down and try and work together.

IMO concerns over the unclear, as yet, Labour party position and concerns over Rabbitte interview should be directed to Labour Office 6784 700 or their Lenister House TDs at 618 3000 ( ask for TD by name).

by LY Thu Apr 08, 2004 15:39

Given the misrepresentation of Labours position I am posting Joe Costellos statement here. I would ask the editors to leave it up as the above short "article" is solely intended to mislead and do damage to Labour.

The important thing is to get maximum unity in opposing the referendum Now. Even if its only on the basis of timimg.

I would appeal to the trots to refrain from attempting to achieve a short term gain through their attacks on Labour. Such gains are illusory, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If this referendum is allowed to go ahead on the same day as the Euros and Locals then the SP and SWP will also lose votes due to the whipping up of racist sentiment


Press Release


No real consultation in meeting with Minister on constitutional amendment on citizenship

Joe Costello TD
Spokesperson on Justice
Issued on Wednesday 07 April, 2004




I was deeply disappointed with my meeting today with the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, to discuss the government’s proposed constitutional amendment regarding citizenship. Whereas the Minister had the text of the proposed amendment, the text of the implementing Bill was not available to us.

The meeting today could not in any way be regarded as genuine consultation. The Minister made it clear that the government was intent on proceeding with the referendum on June 11th regardless of the views of the opposition parties.

I made a number of constructive suggestions to the Minister, none of which he was prepared to consider. I put the case for a Green Paper on the whole issue of citizenship, but that was rejected out of hand. I proposed the referral of the matter to an All Party Committee and indicated that the Labour Party would be prepared to accept whatever consensus emerged, even if this involved a constitutional amendment. Again this was rejected.

I was shown a form of words for the proposed amendment, which I understand is to be published tomorrow. This wording will have to be studied closely and we will have to take legal advice on the matter. However, it appears from today’s meeting that virtually no work has been done on the implementing Bill to give detailed effect to any constitutional change. Far from having the Heads of the Bill available, all that the Minister produced was a handful of bullet points, with so little detail that it would be impossible to reach any judgement on them.

From the very beginning the Labour Party said that we recognised that there was a problem in regard to our existing citizenship regime that needed to be resolved, but even after today’s meeting with the Minister we still do not know the scope or extent of the problem. In particular, we warned against the dangers of attempting to deal with such a difficult and potentially emotive issue against the background of local and European elections.
Everything we have heard from the Taoiseach and Tanaiste over recent days and from Minister McDowell today confirms our view that this initiative is a shoddy political stroke designed to use the immigration issue for electoral advantage.

ENDS


ENDS

07/04/2004, 06:24 PM

by observer Thu Apr 08, 2004 15:28

The first party to come out unequivocally against the referendum was Sinn Féin. It will aslo be SF who will be the ones who will have to fight this battle in working class areas while the Labour Party will be pandering to what Rabbitte obviously assumes is some widespread anti-immigrant sentiment. BTW that is not to take away from the oppositon of others including SP.

by redjade Thu Apr 08, 2004 15:15

Pat Rabbitt and the Labour Party may still be figuring out where to stand on the Referendum, but Labour's MEP candidate Ivana Bacik was eloquent, brilliant and directly attacked the referendum yesterday at the 'Campaign Against The Racist Referendum' press conference.

I'd say she was the most factually prepared politician at the table.

http://www.ivanabacik.com

Press Conference of Campaign Against The Racist Referendum

Ivana Bacik and her daily means of transportation

by disgusted Thu Apr 08, 2004 14:51

labour are only arguing against the govt's arrogant approach in the dail. the govt are getting people on the radio and the media making the case for the referendum and all labour do is say they are not debating it in the dail. grow up pat rabbitte did you not realise these boys are arrogant pricks on your first day in there!

get in there, get stuck into the issues. immigrants should not be blamed for the ff-pd govt's disgraceful hospital cuts.

labour-fg-greens are no opposition. joe higgins is the real opposition from what i can see.