Bush Visit: IAWM, Anti-War Ireland, Ambush 2004! must liaise

by Rosa O'C Thu Apr 08, 2004 13:40

This all makes good sense. All 3 organizations should make a genuine attempt to contact each other. It cant be that difficult.

by jh Thu Apr 08, 2004 14:50

are ppl going to be in a rush to coop with iawm
the network should only co-operate only if its
don't share platform or protests orgs only be in the same place if it suits

by Activist Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:47

It seems that the IAWM in their rush to avoid demos at Shannon have completely fucked up and now look as if they be holding their major demo a few hundred miles from Bush. The Anti-War Ireland demo at Shannon on the Friday night obviously makes much more sense, and also it will be easier for those attending that demo to go to whatever protest is held at the summit itself. This IAWM 'bus thru the night' to arrive at 2am or whatever is off the wall.

I'll be at Shannon for the weekend, kicking off with the AWI Shannon airport demo on Friday night. See youse there!

The IAWM are losing the plot a bit, aren't they?

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:53

I'm all for unity but the idea of the IAWM having any involvement in the Anti-War Ireland demonstration on the Friday sticks in my throat. No way do we want those policemen to have an organising role in that demo. No more SWP stewards!

by Eoin Dubsky Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:55

It would be excellent to have some cooperation between these groups when Bush is here. Keep the authorities on their toes, spread them out, you know. If at one particular time, at protests around Ireland, people did the same symbolic action (a gesture, a song, a banner drop, whatever), it could be really class.

by tired of counterproductive bickering Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:08

from anti-war groups here. None so far and yet the bickering continues.

The situation in Iraq as sketched out in the blog under the pic on newswire seems to be unravelling rapidly and god knows what exactly the context could be by the time of Bush Visit.

Where are the various Anti-war people in the media? Why aren't they kicking down doors to make their feelings and demands heard at a critical time like this?

Why no demonstration of any kind this weekend? People are watching this slaughter with horror and apprehension and the bickering anti war groups are arguing about a visit that is well in the future rather than providing any kind of example or analysis of how people can respond effectively to what is going on in Iraq at present.

I mean - lets get real here - All down to shannon dromoland area for bush - get the word out and people will come - forget the petty arguments and trust people to make up their minds how and where they will protest.

Meanwhile how about getting on the air and pointing out that present US actions in Iraq are wrong, insane, amount to illegal collective punishment and are being facilitated at Shannon Airport by FF PD Government.

by P.T. Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:34

Dominic Carroll's assessment makes a lot of sense and the IAWM would do well to heed it. The march in Dublin will be counterproductive - Dubliners will happily join it and consider their obligations met - no need to go to Shannon or Dromoland. So instead of it being a launch pad for a big demo at Dromoland on Saturday, it will ensure Saturday's demo is smaller. And what will the IAWM have to show for it? A march in Dublin - 300 miles from Bush - of maybe 2,000 people. It will not be a national march as there are 2 other demos in Shannon on Friday and Dromoland on Saturday which non Dubliners are more likely to go to.

If the IAWM forgets Dublin and joins forces with Anti-War Ireland and Ambush for a big demo in Shannon on Friday at around 9pm-till Bush arrives at midnight, we might be looking at 5,000+ at Shannon (dare I say 10,000?). Even for Dubs this makes more sense - departure from Dublin, Kildare, etc will be around 5pm.

A demo this big at Shannon as Bush gets off the plane at midnight will be seen around the world (primetime TV in the US at 7pm). And loads of people will stick around for Dromoland in the morning. This is the way to do it.

by Maratist - Galway Grassroots Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:58

Domnic Ambush 2004! isn't an organisation as such- it's just a group coming out of a specific meeting to do this one thing (ok perhaps this is semanitc), representativies of various groups were at said meeting, and there is another in April 18 Sunday in Galway -so send someone or e-mail us suggestions (ambush e-mail hasn't been set up yet, so try [email protected] or contact MAMA folk), bascially to me at least this is coming from the direction that this is a summit not just a demo, and hence need for more organisation and more time to organise, but no one at meeting last Saturday would claim ability to do it alone - which is why there are more meetings, and minutes are being widely distributed, etc..

by Maratist - Galway Grassroots Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:02

It's go to the airport - main emphasis, lesser emphasis on summit meeting place, 'general Shannon area' is cause these points were written down as we agreed to them, so first yes general area of Shannon, not Dublin, second emphasis on airport over summit place, and so on. Two Points - none of this is set in stone - this is our proposal going to the broader movement who we wis to come on board with organising for this now asap, secondly while co-ordination is useful (time wise anyways) one big thing is not typical of summit protests and not necessary.

by Maratist - Galway Grassroots Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:05

..and it might be vague cause we want other folk to come along and decide with us..but yes Friday night Shannon defo. at AWI demo - we would want Saturday also I think, - the main emphasis of meeting was with camping.

by Saoirse Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:42 Derry

I agree with Dominic that there needs to be cooperation between the various groups to ensure that no one is screwing up any one else’s demo. However, people in Derry and Donegal feel that everyone seems to assume they are within 3-4 hours of Shannon. It takes up to SEVEN hours to get there from Derry. Also, we feel very strongly that there needs to be a massive demo with tens of thousands showing the Irish government what we think of their entertaining Bush.

This is only going to happen in Dublin where we have some hope of getting those people who – because of childcare etc. – cannot take 24 hours or more out of their lives. What we are looking at in Derry is getting 3 or 4 buses down to Dublin for the 7pm demo, with people taking a half day from work to do that. We will ask people in advance what they want to do. Those who are on for chasing Bush around the counties of the South West can take the requisite number of buses to do that. The rest of us will return home once the Dublin demo is over.

I realise that this goes back to the old mass mobilisation versus Direct Action argument but we in Derry have always gone for both! Above all, we want a MASSIVE demo in Dublin. 3,000, even 10,000 in Dromoland or Shannon or Kenmare [where it is rumoured the summit might be held] will totally underestimate the hatred people feel for warmonger Bush.

by David C. Thu Apr 08, 2004 19:49

..in Ireland and abroad.

That should be the only goal here. Make headlines. Create images for TV.

Take the world news cycle away from Bush/Ahern.

by Anonymous Thu Apr 08, 2004 20:07

Good analysis Dominic.

The organzing of this is tricky. It is refreshing, at least, to see that most people see the obvious sense in the two anti-war groups trying to work together on this. I hope that the two groups are in personal, telephone and mail contact with one another.

It seems to me that there are 3 main objectives:-

1. How can we maximize media & public attention, both national & american, on our protests?

2. How can we galvanize enough ordinary people to protest?

3. How can we maximize on the spot protests? That the media will pick up on and that Bush might actually see, hear or at least be aware of?

The problem is, is that points 2 & 3 are in variance of one another.

Dominic's analysis of the feasability of the IAWM plans is certainly a well made point.

In terms of media attention, obviously the national and international press will be following Bush around - so it seems that we should we should be trying to maximize our protests in the geographical vacintiy of him. Yes, thousands could be got to turn out in Dublin but will this maximize media publicity?

There is also the question that if we manage to get bus loads of people down to Shannon, where are they all going to stay? The peace camp idea is interesting. The other alternative is to travel down early on Sat morning but as Dominic pointed out will people be prepared to arise at 5am??

Anyhow, I hope the two groups hammer out this together and I hope the 3 main objectives, at least, that I see, are met.

by A Donegal anti-war activist Thu Apr 08, 2004 20:56

I don't believe the so-called Derry anti-war activist represents the feelings of anti-war activists in Derry and Donegal. More to the point, the argument regarding the merits and demerits of Dublin vs Shannon are based on entirely misleading premises.

Mass mobilisation (Dublin) vs. direct action (Shannon). Do you really think this is a fair assessment of what is being proposed? A demonstration of 3,000 to 10,000 at Shannon is a MASS demonstration and I haven't seen any suggestion from Anti-War Ireland that they are proposing 'direct action'.

You believe there will be tens of thousands in Dublin on Friday night before Bush arrives. I don't. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more people turned out in Shannon. Your compliants with regard to the length of the journey are just silly - the trip to Dublin isn't exactly a stroll down the road either and at least at Shannon we would be there as Bush arrives. The IAWM demonstration in Dublin will be approximately 300 odd miles from GWB.

What you are suggesting though, sounds very nice and polite, and you should be able to squeeze it into your schedule somewhere without upsetting the weekend. Meanwhile I suspect most activists from Donegal and Derry will travel to Shannon, and some might even stay for the two days. I don't doubt your interest in protesting against Bush, but it's a wee bit much to expect us to believe that a march through the streets of Dublin will have more impact than an arrival unWelcome at Shannon. Wise up please.

And also I would bet my house that you are a member of the SWP in Derry (Gorretti Horgan?), if indeed you are from Derry. Seems like a case of repeating the party line to me.

by P.C. Thu Apr 08, 2004 20:57

It looks like Bertie told Bush not to come till midnight to make sure protests are awkward. Be that as it may, Bertie, we will protest. But our political requirements have to be balanced against practical considerations. This is not about direct action at Shannon versus a march in Dublin - its about the right place to protest when George W. Bush arrives at Shannon Airport, a cog in the American military machine. Whatever about the relevance of marches in Dublin, on this occassion, Shannon Airport is the obvious, most relevant place to protest, especially with the worlds media in attendance. For people in Derry, Donegal etc this is obviously a problem - 7 hours each way rather than 3-4 to Dublin (is it?). Yes, thats a problem, but we surely dont intend to protest in Dublin for this reason - in England the main marches are in London, at least 10 hours from parts of Scotland, but thats the way it is. For most people in Ireland, Shannon is no more than 4-5 hours drive (.5 from Limerick, 1 from Galway, 2 from Cork, 3.5 from Waterford, 4.5 from Dublin, 6 from Belfast), so its not a practical impossibility to be there by 9pm on Friday evening. The key thing is that Shannon is the place to be - not Dublin.

by KP Thu Apr 08, 2004 21:05

How many buses did Derry bring to the Belfast march on March 20th? Hardly 3 or 4? I ask because months were spent building for that and there was huge media publicity. Despite everything the numbers, unfortunately, were very, very poor. I'm a bit worried that some people are getting caught up in their own hype with regard to the Bush visit. Yes, we should have thousands on the streets but its far too early to talk about tens of thousands and I can't see such numbers materialising. Heres my guess: 5,000-10,000 in Dublin for IAWM gig; 2,000-3,000 or thereabouts in Shannon for Anti-War Ireland gig; 3,000 at Dromoland on the Saturday morning. Any bookie willing to take bets on this?

Oh, and I'll be one of the 2,000-3,000 at the AWI demo in Shannon.

by Marek P. Thu Apr 08, 2004 21:22

This Derry line is nonsense (and also at odds with the IAWM/SWP enthusiasm for midnight treks to Dromoland, which is odd since the Derry correspondent is obviously in the SWP). When the argument about long distance travel is picked apart, what’s really been said is that the demo in Dublin will have tens of thousands (how many? 30,000? 100,000? Shades of Richard Boyd Barret here, with his tens of thousands!) because 1.5 million people live in Dublin, though it may be supplemented by a thousand or so from the sticks (including some dedicated souls from Derry). But politics should inform this discussion, not demographics - especially when only 2,500 marched in Dublin last month. The anti-war movement wants to go to Shannon - the IAWM/SWP is alone in wanting to march in Dublin (PANA and the NGO PA are paper organisations so don’t count). Dublin marches have become stale affairs, and as there will be a demo in Shannon as Bush lands his plane on the tarmac, does anyone really expect tens of thousands in Dublin that same night? Tens of hundreds, more like. People, especially young people, will jump at the chance to go to Shannon, especially if the entire anti-war movement - including the IAWM/SWP - enthusiastically throws itself into building for the demo.

by D. Thu Apr 08, 2004 21:49

Imagine this scenario: the Irish government gives the US a big field in, say, Roscommon, just like the big field in Shannon (and still miles and miles away from Dublin, not to mention Derry). “Go on,” says Bertie, “build one of them … er … big military airports there, like you have in Saudi, and … er … Mr George can land there when he comes over for his election photo-shoot. Protests? Not a problem. The … whaddaya call it … IAWM … we know who they really are … they don’t like to travel … prefer to march in Dublin … the seat of government, they call it. Hee hee! Takes me back to me Maoist days in UCD, when I hears that.”

by Hmmm Thu Apr 08, 2004 22:00

Shannon airport is essentially a US airbase on Irish soil ("No blood, no blood for oil! No US warplanes on our soil!") and the US President, George W Bush, is planning to land at this airbase before heading off to meet his poodles in Dromoland. Now, I'm a bit confused here, but it seems OBVIOUS that we protest at Shannon - not just against the fact that Bush is passing thru there but against the permanent presence of US troops and warplanes. About 10,000 troops go thru each day.

What exactly is the point in marching in Dublin while Bush is landing at this US airbase at Shannon? I'm generally in favour of Dublin marches (and have attended every one since late 2002) but Bush is snubbing this country and its people by merely landing at Shannon. The refuelling and facilitation of the US war machine is bad enough, now we have the killer-in-chief landing there. The IAWM can do as it wants (and I wish them well) but the demo on the Friday night at Shannon warport should be supported as the main place to be.

Remember: "No blood, no blood for oil, no US warplanes on our soil!"

by Saoirse Fri Apr 09, 2004 13:59 Derry

I am not in the SWP. In fact, the SWP argued within the DAWC that our buses not leave until 5pm and travel direct to Shannon. That view was a minority as most wanted to go to Dublin, not because they wanted to 'fit things into the weekend', but to have the most possible people on the streets AND because some people do have lives outside of their anti-war activity. Two of the group look after elderly parents, another has a disabled child, another again has three very young children. It is not that they don't want to go to Shannon. It's just not an option for them.

In the end, there was a consensus that the greatest number of people will be mobilised to go to Dublin and that's what we are going for. If the Donegal person who disagreed with that view wants to come to the DAWC meeting and argue his/her view, the meetings are on Wed. nights upstairs in Badgers 8pm.

by Jodie Fri Apr 09, 2004 15:27

This item has been deleted from irishantiwar.org - the IAWM website. It's quite incredible how the SWP - for it is they who control the website - will not tolerate a difference of opinion.

by censor Fri Apr 09, 2004 16:12

http://irishantiwar.org/calendar/item.tcl?calendar_id=755 - protest details

Gallery chooses to support US attacks - http://irishantiwar.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0001su&topic_id=1

This is a protest happening today advertised on their boards which is protesting about a fine art exhibition in the temple bar gallery on the basis that it is pro-war. I saw the exhibition myself and this protest is insane. It is just giving handing ammo to the press to characterise anti-war protesters as censorious, anti America in general rather than anti Bush Foreign Policy.

This is the story they should have deleted if they weren't on some kind of blinkered greedy monopolising power trip.

Censors Censors Censors. I mean John Ashcroft and Eamonn DeValera would be proud - protesting 'degenerate art' and censoring legitimate rational call for debate and discussion.

Good thing so few people look at the site or this stupidity would be all over the papers today.

by eh? Fri Apr 09, 2004 17:13

i thought it was a critic on arms sales why would anyone want to protest outside it?

by Bored Fri Apr 09, 2004 17:35

Having nothing else to do on this boring Good Friday, I logged on to the IAWM site to protest at the deletion of this story - only to find it is still there!

So now back on this site for a while....any interesting discussions on any other sites?

by censor Fri Apr 09, 2004 17:41

I hope it is first reason. And yes the exhibition is a critical look at armaments industry and marketing of war to Kids - IT IS NOT PRO WAR - It does however feature lots of small plastic american flags

by censor Fri Apr 09, 2004 17:51

Post a link here and prove me wrong -

by Jodie Fri Apr 09, 2004 18:51

Somebody (not the original poster) has helpfully copied the story from Indymedia and posted it again on irishantiwar.org (though it's nearly virtually unreadable due to html tags popping up when cut and pasted ).

Doesn't change the fact that the story was deleted by the IAWM/SWP Commissar for Censorship.

by Still bored Fri Apr 09, 2004 19:40

Just click on link to anti-Bush visit or paste in link below.
http://irishantiwar.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0001qE&topic_id=1

by Joseph Fri Apr 09, 2004 19:54

Yes, it is there! But, jaysus, they've buried it as a comment in another thread. Ha! God, you have to give them credit - they're good at this shit.

So,they haven't censored it; they've buried it.

by Mary Fri Apr 09, 2004 20:23

Well done to the SWP in Derry for arguing that folk there should travel to Shannon to meet Bush as he arrives. The plan accepted by Saoirse (and obviously others in Derry) is a mistake. There is still a few months to go before Bush soils our shores, so perhaps the decision will be reversed before then. We need EVERYBODY in Shannon to give Bush a big Irish 'welcome' as in arrives in Ireland.

Shannon airport will be the frontline on June 25-26. There's not much point in hanging back in Dublin - for what?

by Bizzy Lizzy Fri Apr 09, 2004 23:06

is to welcome Bush as the liberator of Iraq fighting the war on terror to preserve our liberty.

I will be waving my Stars and Stripes and giving the President a good Irish welcome.

by Liz Sat Apr 10, 2004 13:41 Dublin

At least 5-6 people from my office are looking forward to the Dublin march but would never dream of going to Shannon. My brother has only ever been on one demo and that was Feb.15th. He would come to the Dublin march. Whether people like it or not, we need some way of giving those who are not the usual suspects to demonstrate their opposition to Bush being welcomed here. Do we want these people's voices to be heard or only those of the ultra-pure socialists, anarchists and full-time protestors?

Live in the real world, not some Dave Spart parallel universe!

by Anonymous Sat Apr 10, 2004 16:16

News articles appear on the front page of the IAWM website and hence are most prominently featured here.

The importance of Anti-War Ireland and the IAWM trying to liase regarding the Bush visit surely warrants it staying on the front page??
(and not being moved onto the discussion page)

It is at least as much news (and I would consider much more important) as one of the current articles:-

"ONE YEAR AFTER FALL OF SADDAM MASS POPULAR REVOLT NAILS LIE ABOUT US “LIBERATION” OF IRAQ."

This is basically a statement from Richard Boyd Barret on the war.

by Anonymous Sat Apr 10, 2004 16:43

Though I am essentially agreeing with Dominics points, Liz surely has a point also?? As I stated earlier, the organizing of this is tricky and not a black and white issue.

It seems to me that the primary focus should be on Shannon and every effort and facilitation should be made to get people down there.

However, as Liz points out most of your "average Joe Soaps" will not be prepared to make the journey down to Shannon. With over half the population living in Leinster (about 53%) and most of these living in the greater Dublin area - it seems that there should be a faciliation for people to protest there also. But with the primary focus on trying to get people down to Shannon. And as Dominic points out, a protest in Dublin should not logistically impede or discourage all those who could possibly force upon themselves to make the trip to Shannon.

by pc Sat Apr 10, 2004 17:52

i think the iawm efforts to hold the protestin dublin is damaging but but i do agree with the idea of having something in dublin or in your own local town.... but think back to feb 15th so there was 80,000 :) in dublin but small marches were held in other cities and towns aswell that didn't detract fromm it,

but it is up to the locals of each town or place to organised that if lizes friends are eager to get out that day and voice their concerns they should probably take a walk down to the american embassy and they'll probably find a whoile load of otehr people down there already and hey presto you got yourself a demonstration.....

there is the arguement that if you facilitaate marches in locals town then les will to the major rally but the strenght of feeling will overcome that hopefully

nobody has to go on somebody else march they can go on their own

by Chekov Sat Apr 10, 2004 18:02

I think the big mobilisations should definitely be for places where bush will actually be. However, in every town of any size there are probably many anti-bush people who won't be able to make it to the wild west, so it would make sense to have marches and rallies as well in every town of any size where there are anti-war activists to organise it. We have over 2 months to organise it, so it shouldn't be impossible.

What doesn't make any sense to me, though, is busing people to Dublin from other towns to take part in a demo there. If people are motivated enough to travel to a protest, they should go to Shannon. Sure, have a demo in Dublin for Dublin folk, but bussing people to dublin from Derry would be crazy.

by Maratist - Galway Grassroots Sun Apr 11, 2004 14:33

Aye Chekov - from Galway, Limerick or Cork going to Dublin is going in the wrong direction..there can be local (note local not Dublin) demos the week before the visit, and then a trip to Shannon while he is there, it's not astrophysics.....

by Mark Thomas Sun Apr 11, 2004 15:14

the iawm/swp, after ruling out a protest at shannon, has now decided to join in. remember 1 march. they want the monopoly of the movoment (to police it) and they had to come because we go anyway. but don't be mistaken. they will not make a real effort. they want to sheperd people as far away from shannon as possible (dublin), do their thing - speeches, paper selling, speeches and more speeches by rbb patricia, joe, kieran and michael d - and then come to shannon to steward the protest, police the operations and split the movement.

by Walter Benjamin Sun Apr 11, 2004 15:29

This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing in from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such a violence that the angel can no longer close them. The storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. --Walter Benjamin, "Theses on the Philosophy of History, IX"

by Anonymous Tue Apr 13, 2004 08:59

I think there is a "general" consensus emerging.

That being:-

That Shannon is the key place for the protest -That hence our primary focus should be here.

But a demo should be facilitated in Dublin (and all other cities/towns as with F15) for people who cannot/are not prepared to make the trip to Shannon.

But Shannon is the key place and all efforts must be made to get as many people down there as possible.

The general consensus on the sense of the two groups trying to work together has also definitely emerged.

by Colm Stephens - Irish Anti-War Movement Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:20 info at irishantiwar dot org www.irishantiwar.org

Note that the demonstrations in Dublin on 25 June and at the summit location on 26 June are not called by the IAWM but by the STOP BUSH Campaign and so the IAWM is not in a position to change them. The STOP BUSH Campaign is an alliance of IAWM, NGO PA, PANA, Labour Party, Green Party, Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Party, Sinn Fein and other organisations.

I believe that it is important that there are demonstrations all over the country to give everyone the maximum opportunity to demonstrate their opposition to Bush, Blair, Ahern and their warmongering. I believe that the protests across the country will be huge.

I do not regard that the Dublin demonstration is in opposition to the protest in Shannon. The IAWM would encourage anyone who wants to join the protest there to do so. Indeed, we are calling for people, who are able to do so, to join the cavalcade of buses and cars and join the protest at Shannon for the anticipated arrival of Bush at 2 am, 26 June.

by Anonymous Tue Apr 13, 2004 15:04

Stephen,

Don't know enuf on how the STOP BUSH campaign is being organized to comment on this.

As I've metioned above I think the organizing of this tricky and not clear cut.

But how do you respond to Dominic's main assertion that:-

"It seems that the IAWM has bitten off more than it can chew. Its primary focus is on the summit on Saturday, but given that people from Dublin would have to leave at around 5am (and that too many people would simply throw the alarm clock across the room and go back to sleep), the IAWM hopes that they’ll be persuaded to board buses after the Dublin demo and drive through the night. On arrival at the summit location at around 2am, they can catch a few hours sleep on the bus in preparation for the demo at around 10am. They can expect to return to Dublin by 7pm on Saturday, 24 hours after departure. In all seriousness, how many people can be expected to sign up for such a gruelling programme?"

What are the sleeping arrangements? Will basically everyone just try to catch a few hours kip on the bus or in their car??

Do you, personally, think that this is the best way to maximize the turnout in Shannon? Maybe it is, im just wondering what you think.

Best regards,

by Bemused (and not a little amused) Tue Apr 13, 2004 18:03

Colm Stephens says the Bush protests “are not called by the IAWM but by the STOP BUSH Campaign and so the IAWM is not in a position to change them.” Are we to understand that these plans are carved in stone - that with three months to do, it’s too late to change the plans. You’d wanna do something about the demcratic deficit in the Stop Bush Campaign, Colm!

See you in Shannon at 2am on the 26th. Don't forget the sangas - you’ll need plenty of them for your 3 protests in 15 hours (Dubin 7pm, Shannon 2am, Dromoland 10am). Why not stop off at Baldonnel on the way home?