a brief moment on the Chicago subway

by to Holmes Tue Apr 20, 2004 18:04

In the passion of writing, I wrote that "move to Canada" line. IT wasn't really that smart of a thing to say. I just get really pissed off about people who bitch about their country, and do everything to undermine their country, be it war efforts, or whatever. If someone offered critisism with a viable alternative, I'd respect that. People who complain, but offer nothing good or new are useless.

by Daren Carroll Tue Apr 20, 2004 17:55

By spontaneous, I ment no single person made the others do it. In order to have an uprising like in Animal Farm, one must have a charismatic leader. We did not. We chose whether or not we would chant. As for the insight offered about basing views in small areas, I must actually agree. Basing a country's opinion on a buch of hippies in a Chicago subway, or bunch of gun-toting republicans at a rally really isn't fair. Nevertheless, the facts remain. Bush was elected. Next November we'll decide again.

by Pamela Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:48

I would not have been shocked had your hypnotised mass spontaneously erupted, bleating, 'four legs good, two legs better'

by Holmes Fri Apr 09, 2004 02:40

First, telling me to move to Canada where "my kind is wanted" is the same as telling black individuals to go back to Africa. I most certainly will not, this is my country too. I live here.

Second, Bush and his cronies only represent half of us. This is obvious when you look at his approval rating. Not only that, but there are also sizeable groups of people that hate his guts.

Third, the media is not biased to the left, despite what FOX news tells you. FOX is biased, as evident in the way they would tell viewers anti-war protestors were wrong before the war started (and then we turn out to be correct on most issues afterwards). In fact, there is plenty of evidence indicating journalism has become lazy and they do little research on their issues beyond the information the government gives them. They are biased towards whoever is in power.

Another thing: relying on personal experiences to draw conclusions about all of society is erronious as you may encounter people who deviate from the national norm. Try using the census or reputable polls to back up your reasoning. Conservatives often make the mistake of seeing society in a micro-social way rather than in a larger, macro-social way. This keeps them from seeing the big picture.

Which brings me to your anti-war media claim. That may have happened in your case but was in no way the national trend. You know the largest organizer of pro-war protests? ClearChannel - the same people who bring you 1/4 of the news!

To the anti-americans:

I am saddened that people from other countries lump Americans into a large group, but that is what being seperated does. It makes us ignorant of one another. They view our government as representing us in totality when we know it only takes half the population to make a person and elected official.

I would like to say that, as an American, I am class conscious and a socialist. This entire country is right leaning because of the way the left was persecuted during the Red Scare, and the peoples attitudes are reflecting the reality created by governmental actions. Since you dislike our government you have to remember: we are the victims of the elite in this country too.

As a member of the proletariat and an internationalist I hope I've illustrated that, if you claim to truly be class conscious, you have to be in solidarity with the American poor too (because we both know the government isn't).

Get it?

by William Small Fri Apr 09, 2004 02:18 USA

The comment above from the "conservative American" poetically, if not scientifically, confirms my previous post.

I would be cautious about assuming a quick and decisive victory by the Iraqi Resistance.

Maybe David C is not assuming that, my apologies if not , but the rhetorical flavor of his comments on the front page guide one in that direction.

I think we are in for a long and bloody haul.

I hope all you Eurolib types of Old Europe keep up the good work.

by Daren Carroll Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:56

I could easily rival the story this guy gave of his experience on the subway. In america, there are actually people who support the war. I attended a local rally held to support the troops, where more than twice the people expected showed up. Over two thousand showed up on a rainy, crappy day, and showed our support. WWII and Korean, AND 'Nam guys all showed up to speak, telling of how they felt when they received (or did'nt receive) welcome. Don't stab the soldiers in the back, while they are off fighting for a cause. At the rally, speakers barely got a word in, because the crowd would spontaneously erupt with chants of "USA,USA,USA." 10 or 20 anti-war protesters showed up, and they were the ones shown on TV. If that isn't bias, then I don't know what is.

by an american Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:46

I am a conservatice american. I am sick and tired of being branded as a power-hungry whacko. I think what we are doing in Iraq is a good thing, it just goes wrong sometimes. I'd rather we cleaned house at home than there in Iraq, but I don't think it's reason not to defend yourself. You Euroliberals who love to pat the back of their american conterparts would love to think that the US is a great country, just mislead. And as for those of you who "hate" my government, but "love" me, bullshit. My government is a reflection of me and my fellow citizens. It has its flaws, which I think need to be taken care of before we take care of someone elses, but I still love my country. All gov't is a nessecary evil, but we must cooperate with it. If any Irishman, Brit or whoever comes up to me and says that he doesn't like my gov't, I'd say that, "hell, I don't like yours either, so I guess we're in the same boat." To you american libs who have fed these Irish into thinking that we all hate bush, move to canada, where your type is wanted.

by yhooligans Thu Apr 08, 2004 13:22

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1188061,00.html

by young hooligans ;-) Thu Apr 08, 2004 13:21

So you were a young hooligan? My brief comment was simply to poin out that the calling of Iraqi uprising - criminals deadenders terrorists fringe groups with no support - reminds me of the Period in Derry when a broad based opposition in revolt were similarly demonised and written off - and look where that led in the end.

Iraq is now the battle of the Bogside / Events after Burntullet Bridge writ on an incredibly large scale more than it is Vietnam - complete with no-go areas.

by Breath Thu Apr 08, 2004 13:12

With regard to the obviously scorned individual so sure of "all" Americans being of one mind, I will ask you, "What kind of small existence do you reside in"? I mean come on man, it is that very behavior that put us in this mess in the first place. Yes, you probably think otherwise simply because you are not in favor of the war, but think impartially for a moment if you can, your disgust for American's and our actions (and yes I am American), is sourced from the same place that has us over there with our noses where we don't belong and never did. Your upset is just a varied simptom of the same illness. I am by no means taking our current situation lightly. Nor do I support Dubbya. I also know that the election campaign that landed him the hot spot was a complete debaucle. I am slightly embarressed actually. But I like my country and I like my people, and at this point and for some time really Bush has only represented a third of the population with regard to the majority of his policies. There is nothing that I would rather see than Bush voted out. In fact, if the downward spiral marked by Sept. 11th hadn't happened, in my opinion Bush would have been a do-knothing president.

P.S., Get Well, "Give me a Break" :)

by john throne - labors militant voice Thu Apr 08, 2004 05:26 loughfinn at aol dot com

I am intrigued by the comment from "Battle of the Bogside." And "Young Hooligans". I remember some of the mouthpieces of the catholic bourgeois in Derry, I think it was Hume and Canavan and their allies the Catholic Church Hierarchy condemning the young people on the streets of Derry who were fighting the cops in 1968/69 as Young Hooligans. I also remember that we then went on and set up an actual organization called the Young Hooligans just to make sure they understood how little we valued their opinions. .

But more to the point of this discussion. The person who condemns all Americans is very lacking in knowledge about history. Some of the most radicalising and inspiring forces for the movement in Ireland in 1968/69 were events in the US. The Black revolt and the anti Vietnam war movement. I remember the marches in Derry singing "we shall over come" which we took from the revolt of Black America. I remember reading George Jacksons "Solidad Brother", Bobby Seale's "Seize the Time', Art Preis' "Labors Giant Step". And of course Connolly and Larkin both lived and organized in the US amongst American workers.

It is as usual a class question. If you see any country as one united whole then you understand very little. The Irish bourgeois campaigned for the execution of the 1916 leaders until Connolly was shot. The Catholic hierarchy in Rome congratulated the "zeal", their word, with which the Irish hierarchy supported the suppression of the 1916 rising. As I tell people who are Irish or who think they are Irish or who are Irish American and who try to relate in a superficial way to me as Irish, I spent most of my political life fighting Irish people, the Irish bosses.

This does not mean there are not differences in consciousness from one country to another. Class consciousness is lower in the US at present than it is in Ireland. But it is not a question of Americans being stupid or ignorant or anything such as this. It is a question of the particular history of the country, of US capitalism's present dominant position in the world and the role of the labor leaders. The problem with the contribution of the person who attacked all Americans is that this contributes to lowering class consciousness in the US even further as it tends to strengthen the US bourgeois propaganda that all Americans are united, have the same interests and have to stand together against the rest of the world.

John Throne.

by guinevere Thu Apr 08, 2004 03:17

we are not all ignorant, war mongers, or passive....and I resent that you lump americans into those catagories. some of us, more everyday, know what a shite we have for a leader (actually, he is a leader in name only--his daddy*s cabinet is still running the usa) and are working to do something about it. we are opposed to the war, the slaughter of Iraqi*s, and the slaughter of our own young men and we march and call and write letters..
we are upset about the taxes we pay (the richer you are, the less you pay), the quality( or lack of) of our education system, the legal system in which only the criminals get justice and the treatment of our older parents..so we are fighting, perhaps not visable to you, for a number of changes. because our gov*t is at war with a helpless country, that doesn*t mean we all support it or are too lazy to care.
and before you start tossing stones at one country, take a long look at your own.

by David C. Wed Apr 07, 2004 21:46

...racism is 'discounting' the lives of people who are not americans. How much value do you think 'americans' put on the life of the many Iraqi families killed in Falluja today?

Americans are either evil or ignorant or passive. The evil ones need to be confronted. The ignorant ones need to be educated. The passive ones need to be held responsibile for the results of their passivity.

Don't keep your opinion to yourself - tell them ALL how you feel about how their country is behaving.

by Chill Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:26

"Anti-American" is a new word, that's only come into use in the past few years. But there's already a pefectly servicable word for it, one that's already been in use for ages: Racism.

Why should every single American you meet have to listen to you wang on about how you hate their government? You think they'll be understanding when you just say "oh by the way, nothing personal, you understand. I just hate your country, not you"? This in any case is a line of argument undermined by your saying "go to Canada or Mexico - the people are nicer". Prejudice is prejudice, even when the victims are citizens of a belligerent superpower.

by young hooligan Wed Apr 07, 2004 02:43

Gone totally out of hand.

by David C. Wed Apr 07, 2004 01:51

Its everyone's responsibility to fight back against the US. Here are a few simple, practical ways that you can help....

- Don't buy any American products, including films, TV shows, etc
- Don't keep any investments in the US. Make sure that your retirement money is not in US investments. Don't keep US dollar accounts.
- Don't travel to the US. If you want to see the best of North America then go to Canada and Mexico instead. The people are much nicer there too, and its less dangerous.
- Tell every American that you meet how you feel about what the US Government is doing. Don't blame them, but let them know how you feel.
- Make resistance to the US an issue with your local TD. Vote for people who will stand up to the US.
- Write and email those working against the US with your support. Write and email those working with the US with your disgust.

Do what you can. Every little bit helps. .

by William Small Tue Apr 06, 2004 21:36

I will make a brief comment.

Here is a perhaps too trite parallel--most Germans during the Nazi regine were decent people who didn't want horrific things to happen.

And they never did wake up but fought to the bitter end.

Not the the same social context--outright dictatorship in Germany. But that is balanced by the geograhic isolation and cultural ignorance of most Americans.

The vote in the Bush/Gore election was almost 50/50. So one can hardly say "most" Americans did not vote for Bush.

I am not "bashing" myself but raising a cautionary observation.

The majority of Americans are profoundly conservative,and this mind-set is fed by the their perceived interest (probably a long-range chimera) in the American Way of Life--basically massive consumption of a good portion of the world's resources.

So don't expect them to be leading any great anti-imperial upsurge. It's up to Europe to forge a geo-political counterbalance to the imperial rogue state in the West. That makes your work in Ireland VERY important.

by Phuq Hedd Tue Apr 06, 2004 18:51

Agree with the "chill out" comment above. Most Americans (like Irish) are pretty decent people and don't want to do horrific things.

Most of them did not vote for Bush.

Millions of them marched against the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions. I don't know if it was larger percentages than bothered to march in Ireland, but there were certainly impressive numbers.

Caricaturing "Americans" is foolish. Think about any statements you might want to make about "Irish" people and all the exceptions, inaccuracy, special pleading you'd have to make in order to claim those statements were in any way true.

National stereotyping is on a par with racist and sexist stereotyping when it comes to being able to make any meaningful claims: completely worthless.

Thanks to John Throne for the above. It dovetails with the anecdotes I've heard from friends and relatives in the US.

by chilli cookoff.... Tue Apr 06, 2004 14:40

Jeees man, you really need to calm yerself. Americans are not stupid or ignorant they are being led by a man who would do anything for power. What's the deal with all this american pregudice?, maybe i am just taking you to literally?

Either way, Iraq is Georgies Vietnam. He just wants to live up to his Daddy's expectations.

"Mol an oige, agus tiocfaidh si."
" Praise youth and they will blossom"

by give me abreak Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:21

Well I never, a mood building against the war ....

Could it be something to do with the fact that even thick-skulled Americans have finally realised that WAR is not a TV program ?

That - as has been seen in Madrid - it can also come to a public urban space near YOU and that YOU might get blown to f**king pieces too .... sorry ... I am getting too emotional here .... I mean that YOU too might end up as a piece of COLLATERAL DAMAGE .... due to the ... ahem .... "intelligence failures" of "YOUR" leaders ....

Could it be that even Americans, those cool clean unflappable heroes of the Western world, when confronted with the REALITY OF DEATH IN THEIR OWN LIVES piss themselves in their pants ?

WAKE UP AMERICA AND SMELL THE COFFEE, THIS IS NOT A TV PROGRAM ... THIS IS WAR.

YOU WANTED IT AND NOW YOU HAVE GOT IT !

TOO LATE TO START PISSING IN YOUR PANTS .......

THIS IS WAR AND AS "YOUR" LEADER GEORGE "DUBBYA" BUSH HAS SAID THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT .......

by hilal Tue Apr 06, 2004 09:33

The NY subway authority and police have announced they are expecting an attack at any time.

It will be sudden and very deadly in such a confined space.

by David C. Tue Apr 06, 2004 03:36

..although its fun at times to mock Americans as a group, the reality is that many of them are just as angry with American policies under Bush as the rest of the world is. Its worth remembering that most Americans didn't vote for Bush - as a nation they may be guilty of lazyness at the voting booth, but they're not all ignorant war-mongers...