Bush 100,000? Welcomes

by Aramaic Andy Thu Mar 25, 2004 14:45

A more accurate translation of what the man said would be:

"If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
And if I am only for myself, then what am I?
And if not now, when?"

If you were to follow the advice in present circumstances, you would (modestly) do the following

Make a decision to join in the protest against Bush;
Do you best liaise with (and listen to) all others who want to do the same in order to make the action as effective as possible
Do this as soon as possible, but don't go off and unilaterally declare your own national protest.

by Irish Thu Mar 25, 2004 17:02

Let us remember in our prayers a new generation of American servicemen who are fighting and dying far from home. We owe our freedom to their forebears.

by Also Irish Thu Mar 25, 2004 17:10

Let us remember in our prayers a new generation of American servicemen who are drinking and whoring far from home. We owe our existance to their fornications..

by Pequot and Congolese Thu Mar 25, 2004 17:31

"Let us remember in our prayers a new generation of American servicemen who are fighting and dying far from home. We owe o"ur freedom to their forebears."

More like another murdering shower of swine.
You took our freedom away.
1, 2, a thousand Mogadishu's!!

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Thu Mar 25, 2004 17:31

he he nice one above thats what I love about indymedia the hair trigger wit.

Meantime lets not forget those who gave their lives trying to free the states I wonder what they would think of the state capitalist, military empire it has become


"In 1741 at Hughson's, a waterfront tavern in New York City, a motley crew of men and women, members of what Linebaugh and Rediker call the Atlantic proletariat planned a rebellion against the New York ruling class. They included among others radical Irishmen and women, Africans slaves, the wretched refuse created by the enclosure of the commons, the plantation system and the slave trade. The rebellion was uncovered by the authorities, its leaders were tried convicted, lynched or broken on the wheel, or sent off to slave in plantations in the West Indies. Newspaper accounts of the time described vast crowds gathering from all over New York and elsewhere to view a peculiar, emblematic and perhaps even prophetic phenomenon. The lynched bodies of two leaders of the rebellion, Hughson, an Irishman, and John Gwin, an African, were left to rot as a warning. In death, the white's body turned black, and the black's turned white According to the authors, this resistance in New York was not unusual.

(from a review of The Many-Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners, & the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic
By Peter Linebaugh, Marcus Rediker )

by alois vincenzo Thu Mar 25, 2004 18:34

I don't think that just because someone is stupid enough to associate dead G.I.'s with the winning of our supposed freedom, it should be any opportunity to glory in the deaths of working-class american kids, ignorant and desperate enough to sign up for military service..

I'm not saying I don't support the right of Iraqis to inflict casualties on U.S. forces in the name of resistance to occupation; I think they're well within their rights.

but I cringe whenever I hear someone 'woohoo'-ing when they hear about dead yanks. I don't think such tokenistic triumphalism in the slaughter of cannon fodder should have any place amongst people seriously opposed to war.

by P & C Thu Mar 25, 2004 18:38

"I'm not saying I don't support the right of Iraqis to inflict casualties on U.S. forces in the name of resistance to occupation; I think they're well within their rights."

So what's wrong with it in Somalia. Is it cause they black?

by ollie - katalyzer Thu Mar 25, 2004 19:16

just because you actually know sth about sth, Aramaic Andy, you don't have to go off and accuse someone of 'bowdlerising' - I mean, the phrase [If not I, who? If not now, when?, or whichever version you think is the truth” ]
has taken off , and exists in its own right . It has mutated and morphed but still contains the same simple meaning - do it now, sieze the day. In fact, out of context, it seems so general and meaningless, that you can even quote nike - just do it! *!:-)

overall, the lead article is a good piece, written in a funny and engaging style, and not just a c'n'p one from the mass media..........horray.

by alois vincenzo Thu Mar 25, 2004 22:17

perhaps I should have quoted the reference to U.S. troops as a 'murdering shower of swine' as opposed to the mogadishu one. I was trying to draw the distinction between supporting violent resistance as an at times necessary tactic, and revelling in the unfortunate slaughter of infantry who don't know fuck all about what they're fighting for.

I think such deaths, even if justified, should still be regarded as tragic.

by eeekkk Thu Mar 25, 2004 23:06

.

by Ois - WSM Thu Mar 25, 2004 23:51

I don't think we can or should chear on yank killing. I don't mean to use the workers in uniform argument to much, but goddammit, that's what they are.

In case you have noticed a hella lot of the soldiers in Iraq are not regulars but are reserves. In Ireland we have reserves aswell. Yep the IRDF (Irish Reserve Defence Forces), it changed it name to that a year or two ago, before that it was called the FCA. Actually it changed more than its name. It is now part of international 'peace keeping' oraganisations and members of the IRDF/FCA can now be positioned over seas. Fortunately, unlike the US, Ireland isn't at war with Iraq, so...my mate Dave and my other friends who are in the FCA (IRDF) aren't over in Iraq getting killed so that some rich f***er can get cheaper oil and so imperial hegemony is protected.

by Drbinoche Fri Mar 26, 2004 00:00

I must say the fact that you people approve of a statement like 1,2 a thousand Mogadishus, just proves that NONE of you know what the fuck you are talking about. If you knew anything about the Mogadishu mission, the Day of the Ranger or anything like that you would actually know that the soldiers who died in those actions were Rangers, 160th Nightstalkers and Delta Force, not just your average run of the mill Infantry. These men were the best of the best and were murdered trying to apprehend men responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of their own people in a starvation campaign. Warlord scumbags who were killing civilians, UN personnel and others.

19 very brave US soldiers died in the Mog, they accomplished their mission and you people treat it like a joke. None of you would have last 4 seconds in the Mog on 3rd of October 1993. None of you would have even been willing to go there. You would never make into any of the units involved, hell most of you would never have made it as soldiers.

I get angry when idiots like some of the people who post here make blanket statements that they know nothing about. What would you say if I came on and started qwuoting about ho wwe got one of you guys in Genoa. Hahhahaha did you see that Italians brains on the street!! You'd be pissed, you'd delete the post etc. But if you say something saying how the soldiers of the Us army deserve to die now and in the past, you guys use it as a rallying call. If you hate the US governments policies then hate the policies, but don't hate the brave soldiers, the majority of them are no older than you and are in a situation they cannot control. They are trying tp survive and they are trying to get home to their loved ones. I am sure some of them are assholes, some, not all, in fact I would definitely say its in a very small minority, but that does not give you the right to blanket them all as worth dying.

Do yourselves a favour, if you want your arguments to progress further and get other people on your side, stop being so ignorant to others beliefs and feelings and understand that to truely make a difference you need people to follow their own instincts and understand in their own due time.

by In the 'Mog' (Multi Operator game) Fri Mar 26, 2004 00:35

www.kumawar.com

Check out the board of directors and the terms and conditions for the many chilly punchlines.

Real maps,
Real Reportage,
Real Wars,
Real Generals,
And at the keyboard the real draftees of the next war.

PsychoWar.

by Phuq Hedd Fri Mar 26, 2004 04:31

QUOTE: " I get angry when idiots like some of the people who post here make blanket statements that they know nothing about. What would you say if I came on and started qwuoting about ho wwe got one of you guys in Genoa"

ANSWER: Well my dear, you have lauded prison rape when you think it's going to happen to people like the Catholic Worker 5 (who are pacifists that probably agree with you that we shouldn't be calling for `1,2, a thousand Mogadishus'. You've also called for the bombing of Iraqi and Afghan civilians and so have lost the right to any moral outrage. Face it: you get angry because it gives your shrivelled little life a facade of emotion and you get to pretend to be a human for a brief moment.

by alois vincenzo Fri Mar 26, 2004 18:39

'If you knew anything about the Mogadishu mission, the Day of the Ranger or anything like that you would actually know that the soldiers who died in those actions were Rangers, 160th Nightstalkers and Delta Force, not just your average run of the mill Infantry.'

thanks for throwing some light on that particular incident, I am not an expert on the US campaign in Somalia..

Ois put the 'workers in uniform' argument better than what I was getting at; but while I consider the slaughter of 'average run of the mill Infantry'/reservists tragic, I find it hard to feel the same regret for the killing of the class of elite troops mentioned above.

by Saccho Vanzetti Sat Mar 27, 2004 03:12

The satements above are proof that these people feel that they are the only ones entitled to have a moral sense.

It's a dangerous Stalinist-Leninist outlook.

by Drbinoche Sun Mar 28, 2004 22:51

So you do not feel that Elite Troops should be mourned. Why??? They are soldiers fighting for their country. They are highly trained at numerous tasks from Sniping to Medical work.They do alot more than what you guys think. You probably believe them to be all murdering psychos, but in all honesty, most Elite Spec Ops Troops actually spend a large protion of their training learning how to treat diseases and learning advanced medical procedures, which they then use when they are sent into areas. Humanitarian areas like Earthquakes as in Bam in Iran, Cyclones as in Bangladesh. Either way if you believe that they should not be mourned, then by that rationale you can hardly expect people to give a shit when Carlo got his brains blown out or when Ian decided to stop a bullet, or when Rachel decided to argue with a Bulldozer. I could say I don't mourn em as they are a league of activists I disagree with.

But having talked with some friends over the weekend I am really looking forward to when you guys decide to start hassle when Bush is over, I know you guys are due in for a very warm and funny welcome if any shit is started. Believe me you won't have just the riot cops to worry about!

by Northern Eye Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:04

Fuck, I've just had a beautiful image of bits of Bush lying in the four parts of Ireland after he meets with a thousand lbs of semtex. I call his head for my wall.

by Joe Mon Mar 29, 2004 15:37

I'm quite interested in military history so I read Blackhawk Down when it appeared. If you are not blindly pro-US military its a bit of a shock because the author casually describes the murder of huge numbers of non-combattants by the US forces.

The ones that sticks in the mind is where a group of special forces are smashing their way through the interior walls of a row of houses. As they smash through the wall of one house the women beyond (natually enough) starts screaming her head off. So they shoot here dead. There is no pretence they even thought she was armed.

What happened in Mogadishu is stomuch churning. A bit like if the British army reacted to an IRA ambush by rocketing and maching gunning large areas of West Belfast. But in Somalia the thousands of dead were invisable except of course for the 19 who happened to be born in the US rather than locally.

The film BTW is worthless as this sort of arkward detail gets edited out. A review of it is at http://struggle.ws/ws/2002/ws69/blackhawkdown.html


Other useful background articles
Famine in Somalia [1992]
THE FAMINE in Somalia has once again focussed attention on the problems of the less developed countries. Much of the response to the crisis is a short term one in the form of food aid. However in order to understand the causes of this and other famines in Africa it is necessary to race back the roots of the problem to colonisation and imperialism.
http://struggle.ws/ws92/famine37.html

Somalia [1993]
"Liberal Interventionism" is the new buzzword for 1993. In every newspaper they are baying for blood. "US intervene in Bosnia", "America sort out Somalia" scream the headlines. People who might have questioned American intervention in Nicaragua, Panama or the Middle East are raging that the marines didn't go into Somalia sooner.
http://struggle.ws/ws93/somalia38.html

by jack white Tue Mar 30, 2004 18:22

Drbinoche / Lone Gunman said:

"But having talked with some friends over the weekend I am really looking forward to when you guys decide to start hassle when Bush is over, I know you guys are due in for a very warm and funny welcome if any shit is started. Believe me you won't have just the riot cops to worry about!"

Friends with unidentified spooks? How else could you know that we'll have more to worry about than the riot cops? Wow, maybe you're some kinda military expert: a retired green beret perhaps? An off duty cia operative maybe? An MI5 (or even MI6) agent who likes to surf the net when he isn't busy saving the world perchance? Or maybe you're just someone as unlikely to have any friends as people are to believe your oh so mysterious posts....

by Drbinoche Tue Mar 30, 2004 21:20

Jack White, actually I am a retired Irish Soldier who has many friends still serving in our fine Army. Im afraid I don't know anyone from MI5 or MI6, I have met several Spec Ops guys from other armies, including a few of the Rangers involved in Mogadishu. Very pleasent guys. I have to say I always love how the Anti-War guys always bring up when a slodier shoots an innocent civilian as being so black and white. The truth of the situation, and unless you have ever been involved in a fire fight you have NO basis of argument, is that when people are shooting at you and are trying to kill you, your natural instinct is to stay alive by ANY means necessary. Maybe you open up at anything that moves, maybe you crawl into a ball and hide, but either way dissecting it afterwards is useless as it is never as accurate. I am sure to the Anti-war people, when a situatioon like Mogadishu or Iraq would come along in which as a soldier you are sudenly being shot at by alot of people surrounded by unarmed people, you would stop ask all people who are not armed to please leave the area orlie down and very calmly wait for such to happen. You would also be dead in a very short time. You see in War things don't go to plan. You mention how there were maybe 1000 people killed by the US army on the 3rd of October 1993, I know it was probably between 800 and 1200 people. Of that I would say about 30% were militia and the rest were unfortunately innocent civilians, but if you have read the book and moreimportantly spoken with any of the serving guys on the day, you would know that themilitia were stopping to pick up the Guns and RPGs dropped by their dead, so in effect all dead bodies seen without guns were considered Innocent. It was impossible to know exactly who was Militia and who was Innocent. You harp on about howmany innocent people were killed and yet you do not take all of the facts into account.

The book by the way is not a very accurate way of learning about the Day of the Ranger, you should try finding interviews and other sources with the actual soldiers.

Let me just tell you that when thiswhole hoopla with Bush kicks off, Iam looking forward to what you guys try, coz I know the Gards have some new techniques they have been dying to try out on you guys. Maybe we'll see another Carlo going down!!

by Spywatch Tue Mar 30, 2004 21:35

If he is "ex Irish Army" then he may be in the pay of the MI5 or MI6. Those bodies managed to hire members of the Gardai, so it follows logically that they would also try to recruit members of the Free State military.

by Drbinoche Wed Mar 31, 2004 23:14

Hey if you believe me to be a spy because I used to be a member of the Irish Defence Forces, then by that exact same Rationale, then your beloved Ed Horgan could just as easily be a spy and I would imagine he is a more believable candidate for being aspy. He held a high position, he knows alot of people in various roles, and he is a man of respect [although not to alot of the guys who used to serve under him]. He is a prime candidate, better watch your asses, you could be getting set up for a very big sting operation from the Garda or MI5/MI6.

by Wee Gerry Wed Mar 31, 2004 23:24

I know that MI5 or MI6 have hired some odd characters in the past, but they would not be stupid enough to hire Dribbles. He would not be clever enough to be of any use to them.