Terrorist Attacks in Madrid

by radio listener Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:58

Its now being reported as 125 peopl dead at least.

by Cabhog Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:02

A representative of Batastuna and sopke at the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis. They were Pernando Barrena and Esther Agirre and acccording to AN Phoblacht they were optimistic "pro-independence movement will advance their goals even while facing the higher levels of depression [sic] since Franco's dictatorship."

Presumably murdering commuters will advance their goals

by Tiocfaidh Armani Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:11

This could be terrorists from the Middle East. Spain is one of the most vocal supporters in the so-called "war on terror" with the US/Britain.

If it is ETA, it does show their cause may be legitimate, but their tactics really are shameful. Reminds me of suicide bombers bringing down a perfectly legitimate cause.

by RPa Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:15

The Spanish police discovered a stolen car which blew up when they went to investigate. ETA calling card.

by David Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38

we dont know that ETA did this, we dont know who did this, remember when anarchists were accused of the bolognia train station bombings and the letter bombs earlier this year?

We have to ask ourselves, who will gain from this and i think its Aznar who could do a george bush mayor gulliani after september 11th. this is going to be really bad for the seperatist movement in the basque region

by Philip Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:41

ETA had an attempt to bomb tain lines in Madrid foiled earlier this month.

Also, the style of the attackers get away is an ETA calling card.

Chances are its ETA.

Is a vote for Mary Lou a vote for this savagery?

by john Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:42

More and more it is innocent civilians who are paying the price for the arrogance and ignorance of their leaders. Whether it be ETA or middle east bombers the reason behind it is the same...The ruling elite protecting their own narrow interests and not giving a shit for their citizens

by observer Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:46

I can just see the stupid smirk on your fat middle class face as you type this. Dozens of people murdered by no-one knows who, and all silly little boys like you can do is try and score cheap points against someone who has nothing to do with it no matter who it was.

I also suspect you are the same Philip who was having wet dreams about this state allowing Shannon to be used to dispatch a similar terror on the people of Iraq.

by iosaf Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:23 barcelona

Lehandakari:-
condemnation "these are the final pages of ETA".
Taoiseach:-
condemnation
The Taoiseach and President of the European Council, Mr Bertie Ahern, has condemned the atrocity perpetrated against the Spanish people in Madrid this morning. He said, "the timing of the bombings was clearly designed to wreak the greatest level of havoc and carnage. They are an attack on the democratic process and cannot be justified by any political cause."
Leaders of the Opposition:-
This is an attack on the democratic process.
Leaders of the Government:-
this is an attack on the democratic process.
The perpetrators will be found and punished.
Spokesperson for illegalised Basque seperatists:-
This was not ETA and was a Islamic group connected to Iraq.
************************************************
The Spanish People go to the polls to elect a new government on Sunday. Against a backdrop of such issues as the highest job insecurity in Europe, the largest real estate bubble in Europe, the highest "post-Euro" real inflation in living costs in Europe, the continuing ecological mismanagement of Sea, (The Prestige in the Atlantic and damaged nuclear submarines in the Mediterranean) Water (the proposed diverting of the Ebro river) and Forests (the lack of a proper strategy to ward off climate change), the popularly opposed military and political involvement of the Spanish State in the Iraqi war and subsequent occupation of Iraq,
the most vocally right wing Church in Europe which increasingly is attacking core secular values in Education and Government, corruption, the relocation of multi-national-corporations to the newer European States, and the continuing calls for increased independence and/or constitutional reform in the Basque and Catalan regions.

The Spanish people and voters have naturally found it difficult to ponder their future in these last weeks, the campaigning is hard on all sides, and now they must _react_ to yet another Terrorist Atrocity.

I love this people and this land, I see in them so much with which I am familiar, and so much that is fresh and different. I ask you to extend to them your empathy and assistance, they suffer a misery and spectre which most Irish have gone a long way to "exorcise".

by european leaders. Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:38

The attacks drew an immediate condemnation from British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, who called it "a disgusting assault on the very principle of European democracy."

"It is the worst act of terror in the history of Spain and the worst act of terror in memory in any European Union state. There shall be no safe haven for terrorism and terrorists in our European Union. ... It is an outrageous, unjustified and unjustifiable attack on the Spanish people and Spanish democracy. There is a general election due in Spain on Sunday. What happened today is a declaration of war on democracy. Let Sunday show that Spanish democracy is determined to overcome terrorism." -- European Parliament President Pat Cox

"These irresponsible acts, which cannot have any justification whatsoever, are to be fully condemned. ... In these appalling circumstances, I want to offer you the most sincere condolences, both in my name and in that of the French people." -- French President Jacques Chirac

"We were horrified by the news of the bomb attack in Madrid this morning. This detestable act of terror that claimed so many victims fills us with deep sorrow and outrage." -- German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer

"Every European, every democratic person, has to condemn these people who wanted to interfere with an electoral campaign, producing suffering for hundreds of people, leaving families broken, without any objective." -- EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana

"Our solidarity with Spain remains steadfast, as is our alliance's determination to vigorously pursue our efforts to combat terrorism." -- NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop


The Danish government "expressed its deepest sympathy to the victims, their families and to the people of Spain" and "condemned such acts of terror." -- Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller

The attacks are an "abominable violence that wounds every principle of civil existence. ... Madrid's tragedy reminds us of the need that ever more cohesive action by the European Union and the international community must achieve efficient and swift results in uprooting terrorism and see that the reasons of dialogue and solidarity prevail." -- Italian President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi

"We don't have ETA claiming these attacks but (they) bear its signatures..." Ana Palacio.(PP minister Spain)

¿como desokupamos de este tristeza?
how do we end this misery?

by from spain Thu Mar 11, 2004 13:04

170 dead
madrid are crying

by blah Thu Mar 11, 2004 13:32

hell its not even intelligent

by iosaf Thu Mar 11, 2004 13:34 barcelona

His condemnation which I have C/P above being televised by all national TV stations.

Meanwhile, the PP have called off their electoral campaign.
Rajoy who last night addressed supporters in Barcelona, has announced that his campaign is now over. This shall mean
no TV debate with the opposition.
no last minute discussions to sway the crucial 15% of voters who as of yet have not made up their mind.
Mr Zapatero, very visibly shocked has fallen short of calling off the electoral campaign of the PSOE.

The mouthpieces of ETA are maintaining this was not their work, but rather a islamic cell, Jack Straw has on behalf of the British Government insisted that the possibility that this attack was carried out by Al Qaeda or similar be investigated.
***********************************************
CNT, as usual calls for these elections to be boycotted, as any vote in this system is manipulated, members of CNT and it's allied groupings have not really altered their position since the 1856 (1st international condemnation of the electoral system).

by Canteen Kevin Thu Mar 11, 2004 13:52

Before you continue anti-Basque ranting, the Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes has said Spain is "not ruling anything out" in its investigation of who is responsible. Remember the Oklahoma Bombing and the Sun's front page "In the name of Islam". ?

This atrocity is unfortunately a godsend to right wing throwbacks in Spain and their cheerleaders on this website. The timing is also sinister with the Spanish election coming up and the PP losing in the polls. Whoever carried out these attacks are criminals be they ETA, Al-Qaida or spooks, but frothing at the mouth with infantile shite like "The inhuman scum who write on this website in support of indiscriminate slaughter in Madrid, Iraq and Palestine make me vomit." is shitting on the memories of the victims of this massacre.

by silo Thu Mar 11, 2004 14:05

This thread should not be here, it's certainly not news, it's opinion.

However, if it does stay here, it's important to add that no-one knows who has done this yet, and that whoever is responsible for any crime such as this should be brought to justice (rather than 'hunted down', presumably implying that they should then be torn limb from limb).

by Anonymous Thu Mar 11, 2004 14:17

173 dead now
500 injured

This is horrific.

But what else happens when you take a hard line, right wing, stance against your opponents?

Ask Margaret Thatcher
Ask Ariel Sharon
Ask George Bush

now Ask Jose Maria Aznar.

His hard right wing stance against Basque seperatists was always only going to bring death in the run up to the up coming election.

DIALOGUE is now needed as a matter of urgency. Hard line, non-compromising stances are near guaranteed to bring death. It ain't rocket science you know.

My stomach is churning with saddness for the death and destruction of so many innocent lives.

I pray

by Tiocfaidh Armani Thu Mar 11, 2004 14:29

Nobody is condoning this for one second, but people are looking at the bigger picture. If it was ETA you only have to look at Spains recent policies in the last few years to realise why they have done this.

If it was terrorists from the Middle East, well then you only have to look as Spain became one of thge biggest "cheerleaders" to the US/Britian as they massacred 10,000 innocent people.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families, but lets look at the bigger picture and see why these things are happening and do something to make sure this type of act doesn't happen again.

by jeff Thu Mar 11, 2004 14:35

...then so be fucking it. I was against War on Iraq, but am still ambivalent. Many times I support various causes on this list, so none of you tossers can box me in anywhere. I like a smoke, I support freedom of speech and expression ( re; Eoin Rice) I hate bully boy pig tactics. Al Quaida are the opposite of evrything I've listed.


I do not believe this is ETA. This has all the cowardly characteristics of al Quaida. ETA hit government buildings, army/police, and telephone in with a warning. Al Quaida "bravely" murder innocents and only innocents. They are chicken shit rats that hate us ALL. They even murder their own Muslim " brothers" (re; Turkey)

They hate conservatives, liberals, leftists, rightists, pot heads, anti drugs, Jews, non Jews-the list is endless, but it all encompasses the word Kuffir.

And don't argue with me that this is the third world stricking back- all them fellas on those planes were rich boys, Osama himself is a spoilt little rich boy.

AND I AM A GODDAMN PROUD KUFFIR! SO FUCK YOU!

FUCK YOU OSAMA!

by Joe Thu Mar 11, 2004 14:59

The self-indulgent 'rip their heads off' crap posted above as the death toll from Madrid mounts (170) is sickening. If it was coming from relatives it would be an understandable reaction. Instead its coming from some macho chest beaters, with no links to those killed, who imagine that splashing the blood of those slaughtered today in Spain over their bodies demonstrates their 'realness' or worse sincerity.

by Major Woody Thu Mar 11, 2004 15:19

I've just discovered a terrorist web site online. You will be shocked by the cold blooded nature of these extracts from it.

-----

Targets

A target is a geographic area, complex, installation, or its contents that has military action planned or directed against it.

....

Economic Targets

Economic targets are civilian resources which contribute to the enemy's warmaking capability.

Financial Centers: stock exchanges, financial clearinghouses, electronic fund transfer capabilities [911?]

Production Sites: factories, electricity plants, petroleum, oil and lubricant (POL) plants

Lines of Communication: raw materials movement, civilian workforce movement [Madrid today?]

Trained/Skilled Workforce

---

From https://www.fitcpac.navy.mil/reserves/isrtm/target.htm

They are from some outfit called the 'US Navy', specifically a cell that calls itself Fleet Intelligence Training Center Pacific.

by Chekov Thu Mar 11, 2004 15:36

"I do not believe this is ETA... ETA hit government buildings, army/police, and telephone in with a warning." When I was on the Costa del Sol in 2002 ETA were planting no-warning bombs in tourist areas. In the last 2 and a half years since 9/11, Islamist groups have succeded in planting 0 bombs in the West. Meanwhile the West pulverised their favourite state (Afghanistan) and occupied another (Iraq). So presumably any Islamist terrorist groups that exist would have liked to, but simply weren't able to. For all of the big talk in the meeja about Al Qaida and so on, they have proved to be pretty pathetic when it comes to running any type of violent campaign in the West. On the other hand ETA do have a proven ability to carry out such attacks in a sustained and coordinated manner. You can rant away against your favourite bogeyman all you like, a kind of anger-therapy, but it''s not very helpful in understanding the world.

by Think Thu Mar 11, 2004 15:42

That the electoral campaign has been called off is a mockery. These attacks are the best possible electoral campaign the corrupt and terrorist Spanish Government could have ever masterminded!!!
What is 100 or 200 lifes for a Government who sees Basque and Catalan independentism as the major threat to the "unity" of the Spanish State???
It is very easy and dead handy to blame ETA, isn't it? What a world, we live in a pile of shit.

by iosaf Thu Mar 11, 2004 15:57

I have spent the morning working and talking and observing.

The General Election Campaigns of all parties have now been suspended.

I personally feel the suspension of the elections ought be considered as the issues facing the voters are now clearly prejudiced.

It is has not been forgotten that the French State admitted to being held to ransom by an unknown terrorist group in the last weeks who claimed to have placed bombs throughout the countries train networks.

It has not been underestimated that there are many reasons why islamic terrorist groups would wish to attack Madrid at this time, and if so, this is the most serious such attack in Europe, ever.

It is very odd and sick that the moderate leader of the Catalan nationalists ran his campaign on the lament that Catalonia is now associated throughout Europe with terrorism (in response to the refusal of Pat Cox to meet the Catalan Government representatives after the "ETA ceasefire in Catalonia" story. It is very odd and sick, because now it is not Catalonia but rather España which is most certainly and historically associated with terrorism.
to be precise the worst terrorist atrocity in Europe this century.

Who ever is responsible, one thing is certain,
they wished to attack the democratic process. And it seems they most probably have succeeded. That ought shock deeply most thinking people in the European Union.

by - Thu Mar 11, 2004 16:00

The CNT is as you probably know the largest anarchist/anarcho-syndicalist organisation in Spain and is campaigning against "voting" under such a system which is not democratically representative of all the people.

by - Thu Mar 11, 2004 16:07

over 150 dead 400+ injured.
General Election campaigns halted.
Condemnation from all political groups in Spain from mainstream parties to anarchists to trade unions to in the last hours the mouthpiece of ETA itself the illegalised party HB. They are maintaining it was an islamic extremist group.
The shock is obvious.
The questions are many.
It is still unknown if any Irish Citizen is amongst the dead or wounded.

(with editors co-operation I suggest the thread is redirected here- we do not know who was responsible yet.)

how the news broke in Ireland:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63790

by gargoyle Thu Mar 11, 2004 16:29

We need to try and understand why these people did what they did, and give in to whatever demands they have. The only way to peace with terrorists is through surrender.

by Cork Anti-War Campaign Thu Mar 11, 2004 16:42 corkantiwar at hotmail dot com 087 1258325

Press Release (11/3/04)

ANTI-WAR ACTIVISTS CONDEMN MADRID ATROCITY
The Cork Anti-War Campaign has condemned the atrocity in Madrid.

Dr Fintan Lane has said that, “No political objective can justify the mass murder of innocent civilians, and anti-war activists are appalled by this atrocity. It is a disgraceful attack and it is difficult to understand what the perpetrators hoped to achieve other than the misery they have caused. It is unclear, at this stage, who is actually behind this attack, but nothing can make such carnage and human misery acceptable. The killing of civilians by US forces in Iraq, by Israeli forces in Palestine, and by non-state terrorists in Spain and the US are equally wrong. It is all terrorism and must be condemned.”

Dr Lane, who is chairperson of the Cork Anti-War Campaign, continued: “We hope that this massacre of innocents is not appropriated by right-wing forces to undermine the civil rights of political dissidents and others in Spain, or elsewhere in Europe. This is a human tragedy that will be condemned by all, and should not be used as an excuse for political repression. Unfortunately, the hijacking of the 9/11 atrocity by the Bush regime makes us fear that this latest act of terrorism will be used to further a right-wing political agenda.”

He concluded: “The sympathy of every anti-war activist is with those who have suffered today.”

PRESS RELEASE ENDS

To contact Fintan Lane, phone 087 1258325

by Colonel Blimp Thu Mar 11, 2004 16:44

That is the way we dealt with paddy after all. I prefer the old days of Bloody Sunday and shoot to kill to all this jaw jaw we get today.

by disillusioned - basque supporter Thu Mar 11, 2004 17:01

What happened in Madrid this morning was a terrible act of violence and caused the death and injury of too many people to even think about not condemning it would be in my mind inhumane,
However the fact that everyone on this " indy" media site seem so sure to believe instantly mainstream and government accounts on this tradegy.
Reuters is currently carrying a headline

"MADRID (Reuters) - Basque separatists killed 173 people in simultaneous blasts that ripped through packed Madrid trains in the guerrilla group's bloodiest attack in more than three decades..."

Immediatly everyone rushes to condemn ETA not taking into account they have denied it. Its just so convienent that this occurs immediatly before elections and gives as Spain said it - their 9-11. Does this mean that their government like the US government knew this attack was taking place and did nothing to prevent it thus allowing it to further rampage around the globe pointing the finger and shouting terrorism?

As some sensible person said earlier on this thread look at the grander scale of the situations context to find out why things like this actually occur .........

It might just be that someone is angry with Aznar's policy making ?

by (posted by Guido) Thu Mar 11, 2004 17:48 guidoke at ilema dot net

"(Reuters) - European stocks slumped on Thursday after bomb blasts in Madrid killed more than 100 people, deepening losses triggered by data showing the U.S. racked up a record trade deficit in January.

Safe-haven euro zone government bond yields hit eight-month lows as investors fretted that the attacks in Spain's capital were not the work of Basque separatist group ETA."

http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2004/03/11/rtr1294664.html

by Guido Thu Mar 11, 2004 18:00 guidoke at ilema dot net

De director of Europol said it does not seems the work of ETA.

Source, Belgian paper, De Morgen.


In France there was the last week talks about an organization that threatned to blow up railways if the French government would pay a huge som of money.

Somebody more info on this organization?

by Lone Gunman Thu Mar 11, 2004 18:24

Wouldnt surprise me if it is al quieda behid this.Use a group that has a grievence against a supporter of the USA[ETA].Supply themwith money,and the bomb making logistics perhaps?Let them lose and let them claim the glory and reap the whirlwind.

Two weeks ago Spanish police arrest a car laden down with explosives coming into Madrid ,this is planning in the long run

JUST IN.The explosives used were stolen in France ten years ago and have been used in previous ETA bombs. The Spanish PM is stating that it was ETA.

No doubt somone will build a conspircy theory out of this that it was some sort of CIA,SIS,Mossad,etc etc,spook black op, within the next few weeks.

God help those in ETA,cos no one else will,the Spanish anti terrorist squads DO have a shoot to kill policy.

by Guido Thu Mar 11, 2004 18:46

"No doubt somone will build a conspircy theory out of this that it was some sort of CIA,SIS,Mossad,etc etc,spook black op, within the next few weeks."

La estrategia de la tensión
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/75211/index.php

by righteous pragmatist Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:00

The actions of US forces in Iraq ARE NOT terrorism.
Rather they invaded Iraq to stop Saddam Hussein terrorising and butchering his own people and threatening the world with either real WMD or with the threat that such weapons existed in his arsenals.
When Iraq civilians were killed and thousands of them unfortunately were it was because they were near or in the vicinity of Iraq government facilities or military complexes or were unfortunately in the proximity of Iraq forces while they were engaged by American and Coalition forces.
Are going to suggest that the accidental killing of French civilians in France by American forces as a consequence of attacking German occupational forces was terrorism?
Hardly. The Second World War was fought to free the French people from terror and unfortunate French casualties were a consequence of the campaign to free France from Nazi occupation.
In the second Gulf War the object was to remove the threat of WMD that all the major powers including US UK but also France Germany Russia and China believed existed in Iraq hence the inspections. When US/ UK did not believe there was compliance they said enough was enough. In the limited time frame they believed existed before Iraqi weapons programs resulted in usable weapons or actual existing weapons could be used ( 45 minutes) they deemed it necessary to remove Saddam
That was the primary adjective but as a consequence of the overthrow of Saddam the Iraqi people are now free to create real democratic future. That’s hardly terrorism.
Israel is under constant attack from religious fanatics who blow up innocent men women and children.
In response they attack militant leaders who resist capture and arrest because the police forces of Yasser Arafat are in league with them. This is war and when militant leaders die in Apache rocket attacks and civilians die then that is unfortunate. It is not terrorism.
The organizers of the terrorist outrage in Madrid this morning did not set out to attack legitimate targets such as police and army or political leaders as a true guerillas organisation would. Rather there target was innocent men and women going to work in the morning. There target was innocent children going to school or young students going to classes. The target was civilian because the purpose is to paralyse the rest of the covilian population into terror. A terrified public will not turn out for democratic elections. That is terrorism.
On 9/11 terrorist killed 3000 people- men women and children.
They attacked the Pentagon a legitimate target and an act of war.
But attacking the WTC was an act of genocide.
George W. Bush is fighting a war against these murderers. Left wing groups have consistently opposed him. Therefore they are allied if not in action but ideologically with Al-Qaeda. They wish the end of democracy and freedom.
ETA is a left wing group hoping to distablise democratic society in Spain just like the IRA in Ireland and Baader Meinhof tried to do in Germany and Al-Qaeda tried to do in the US.
They are being given backing from rogue states such as Libya and Syria and Iran.
Bush is taking the war to the enemy.
Spain must do the same.
The whole world should unite and fight this evil.

by against terror Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:10

See past your own agenda and condemn this act without bylines today. Cork Anti-War, those side remarks are not appropriate today and should be withdrawn, if you can not make a statement without mentioning your anti-Bush/Blair/Aznar tendancies you have missed a good opportunity to say nothing at all. Unite against terror- do not be an apologist for it

by R Isible Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:16

If you can't condemn the murder of the Spanish civilians without also condemning the murder of Iraqi civilians by the US and UK then you should just stay quiet according to your extremist logic.

It may surprise you to realise that where you see a set containing (Al Qa'ida, ETA, "the left") others see a set containing (Al Qa'ida, USA, "the right"). Both sets only make sense when viewed through particular political goggles.

Stroking yourself into a rage doesn't make you any more or less right it just makes you into a verbal suicide bomber splattering yourself over the walls of the indymedia cafe as you scream "shut up, shut up, Bush is Great, there is only one true way!"

So calm the hell down.

by against terror Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:25

R isible, your moral equivalence between todays victims and Iraqi victims speaks volumes about you. Your knee jerk reactionism is sick and inappropriate - you are a terror apologist.

by R Isible Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:32

Still, continue your verbal suicide bombing. But aren't you going to die soon?

What a lame attempt at an attack though. Can't you see how nicely you leave open the exact equivalence between the mangled bodies of the people on the train and the mangled bodies of the people in Baghdad? Do you think either of their friends or relatives cares what the extermist reasons of people like you or Al Qa'ida are when they see the torn limbs of their loved ones?

I suspect that you can't. Good luck with the stroking and whipping yourself into a rage. If it weren't for the fact that you're getting off on dead people it would be funny.

by righteous pragmatist Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:34

"If you can't condemn the murder of the Spanish civilians without also condemning the murder of Iraqi civilians by the US and UK then you should just stay quiet according to your extremist logic."

Useful idiots like you give terrorist legitimacy.
You compare the atrocities of a tiny little terrorist group with the actions of nations.

US and UK did not set out to kill civilians.
The vast majority of Iraqi dead were soldiers.
The target of the war was to destroy the threat of Saddam's regime.

The target of ETA and other terrorist groups is ordinary people. civilians. men women and children. they set out to kill innocents and terrorise whole populations into surrender.

When you refuse to see this distinction you give these motherfuckers legitimmacy

Your the one with the extremist logic you blind ignorant fucking idiot!

by against terror Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:39

R Isible, you are a sad sad person, you and Cork Anti War are leaping all over this to further your aims and is exactly the kind of press that you should avoid. Good bye.

by R Isible Thu Mar 11, 2004 19:47

When you say that

"Useful idiots like you give terrorist legitimacy"

and follow up that statement with what I suppose you mean to be an explanation

"You compare the atrocities of a tiny little terrorist group with the actions of nations."

I would laugh were it not so sad. You make my point beautifully. The murder and torture committed by nations is on a scale so much vaster than the work of the murderous, anti-democratic groups responsible for 9-11 and this Spanish Train bombing that it perhaps defies your comprehension. Nevertheless whether or not these quantities of bone, blood and organs are something that your weasel's brain can envision, they are real.

Millions dead as a result of the "legitimate" terrorism of the British Empire, the French and Italian Empires, the Spanish Empire and now the US Empire. What vaster atrocities can there be? The genocide of entire continents, the starvation of hundreds of thousands, the massacre of innocents in the name of higher policies.

If you don't condemn that, especially when there are close to hand, on a human scale, glimpses of these horrors in the death of the people on that train then you may just be stupid. I prefer to think of you that way rather than thinking of you as the evil creature that you would otherwise have to be.

That's my last word on this. Don't bother replying if you have nothing new or considered to say.

by Gurrier Thu Mar 11, 2004 20:09

And I get the distinct impression that Righteous Puppet is typing one handed while he pleasures himself over this tragedy. Every time we get a bombing like this, the right wingers go into a strange, gleeful frenzy of zeal. It makes you sick the way they try to use the deaths of others to attack the left. Opportunist scum, pigybacking on the deaths of innocents to lash out at your enemies who have nothing to do with this. Moral equivalence? Nobody wants to die and one innocent death is surely equivalent to any other (unless you're a racist of course RP?) Why don't we get the same gnashing of teeth and righteous beating of chests when such things happen in countries outside the West? The truth is that the location of today's tragedy was the only unusual thing. A similar tragedy has happened in Congo alone every day for the last 6 years. The chest beaters and moral high-ground rightists are racist opportunists of the worst kind.

by Anonymous Thu Mar 11, 2004 20:38

On such a horrific and mournful day as this, could everyone not stop slamming and annihilating one another - be it through cruel insults or harsh sarcasm. Could we just stop doing this, even if it is just for today? Disagree with one another, YES - but with RESPECT. Can we all not respect one another on a day like this?

If we cannot, are our actions, albeit a thousand times more subtle - any different from the the horrific actions that were carried out today??

by Phuq Hedd Thu Mar 11, 2004 20:55

As "R Isible" points out whether carried out on a small scale by small political entities or on a large scale by States. It is important to remember this in the context of the horror that we all (I hope) feel at this.

QUOTE: "If we cannot, are our actions, albeit a thousand times more subtle - any different from the the horrific actions that were carried out today??"
ANSWER: Yes. Our actions are "any different". Do you ever stop to think about what you write? I'm starting to agree with No.6 that your platitudes are infuriating. This thread is a very interesting example of how the right-wing attempts to use terrorism as an excuse for more of its own terrorism. If you find it too strong for your tastes then you should stop reading indymedia. Speaking from a purely selfish viewpoint I think that'd be a great thing for humanity.

by terrorwatch Thu Mar 11, 2004 21:04

ETA are terrorist scum. ETA were trained by the IRA and are essentially the same organisation. At the last SF Ard Fheis a member of Eta addressed the delegates. It is now time that SF/IRA were punished for their terrorist activity. Todays ETA bomb in my opinion should be interpreted as an end to the IRA ceasefire, SF should be kicked out of the talks immediately.

by ec Thu Mar 11, 2004 21:25

.

by eta Thu Mar 11, 2004 21:31

I can remember the days when Sinn Fein supported similar actions conducted by the IRA. To this day SF still endorse the terrorist actions of the IRA. People need to remember that this is the kind of thing the IRA and SF stand for. They are terrorists, this shoudl be remembered by the people on June 11.

by Eoghan Thu Mar 11, 2004 21:47

If the castillians don't like the price they're paying to continue to occupy the Basque Country, then give them their freedom now!

by Emily Thu Mar 11, 2004 21:52

I don't think that it is in anyway helpful to dance to every tune that the spanish state plays.

First news of this broke early this morning and the state cried ETA.

This has been firmly condemned, and rightly so by all basque nationalist groups.

No Pasaran!

by realisy Thu Mar 11, 2004 21:59

To say that this ETA attack is somehow the legitimate actions of an oppressed nationality is complete bollocks. The working class people of Spain are the natural allies of the Basques people. If the Basques want independence from their Spanish rulers they need to win over the Spanish workjer to their cause not bomb them.

by reporter Thu Mar 11, 2004 22:10

Not ETA.

Sorry to disappoint all you people who had seized on this as part of the anti-SF witch-hunt......

by ipsiphi - black ribbon Thu Mar 11, 2004 23:10

there can be no contesting the seriousness of the percieved threat to Democracy in Spain.
As Spanish and European and South American and indeed US citizens and more yet more further afield, in Africa, Iraq and Australasia come to terms with the atrocity of this morning, I can only write that black ribbons are appearing.
I don't know who they are issued by, nor do I think it as important as the feelings I have today witnessed in those who live and work here. There are other questions which are more important now.
I write, perhaps pushing the boundaries of indymedia a wee bit, not as a political commentator, but simply a writer of sarcastic and satirical words who today would prefer you think of me simply as a worker in Spain.
I have spent the last days writing simple satirical and sarcastic words in english elsewhere. Today I am not that "writer" l am today a worker in Spain. Today I'm not the smartalek sunday papers refusing to make predictions. today I am not full of woe. Today I am a worker in Spain.

Today my work included multiple train and subway journeys amongst those who we find in such places.

The underpaid.
The immigrant.
The poor and perfectly ordinary who comprise any society and give it it's beauty.

And my work includes that peculiar language "english" and very little was spoken today.

More than one generation is terrified. More than one incredulous. Whomever is deemed responsible for 11/3, it's effects will last long for not just Madrid, but Europe and beyond.

as your grandmother might suggest,
sunday the spanish go to the polls, if you pray, light a candle.

thank you for the space.

by j26 Thu Mar 11, 2004 23:11

...and we have to ask the question - are we a legitimate target now? We have provided support to the US war effort and we are having the twat over for tea in June.

by reporter Thu Mar 11, 2004 23:15

Are you going to remove the shit at the beginning of this thread. Or will I start accusing other parties of involvement with Al Qaeda?

Or telling some home truths including about individuals who post here. Your call...

by arbiter of taste Thu Mar 11, 2004 23:51

Please don't cheesily name the tragic events of the day after the date, it helps remove the human tragedy and allow the situation through its new iconic status to be moulded and directed for other peoples political or philosophical gain in a way that a proper title reflecting the tragedy and barbarism rarely does. Give it some thought, surely you can do better than trotting out the new naming system invented by the american media, reducing the events to numerics merely serves to remind people of the date a tragedy happens and stunts the further exploration needed, a name on the other hand ties the event into the world past and present, it is a turning point but a date is merely a starting point. Forgetting all of that, give the tragedy a proper name.

by Patrick M - none Fri Mar 12, 2004 00:58

Today ipsiphi speaks the truth! The ordinary people of Spain suffered tragedy beyond reason. No matter what you believe in, no matter who's to blame, no matter what the cause; this is plainly and simply wrong. No organisation, state or military cause can justify this ends to it.

Lets just leave politics out of this for one very brief moment and grieve with the people of Spain and Madrid.

by Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Fri Mar 12, 2004 01:30

I'm going to leave the thread as it is. I think those that saw this as an opportunity to jump on SF have now got serious egg on their faces. Perhaps a useful lesson for all those that leap about slinging mud.

The purpose of the threads is to clarify news articles, not to attack other political groups.

That doesn't mean that criticisms can't be made, but they shouldn't be the only thing that's posted.

by fuck franco Fri Mar 12, 2004 01:36

you ignorant fools.
its 911 days since new york ( 9-11..geddit)
its the 11th of March..geddit
its al quida again.
ETA have no history of planting intentionaly no warning bombs.
spanish crimes in Iraq have brought this horror upon them and sad pathetic attempts to disguise this will ( and have) failed.

by Chekov Fri Mar 12, 2004 02:03

Eh... no.

by R Isible Fri Mar 12, 2004 02:09

This Counterpunch article suggests that the only people likely to benefit from this are those that back the strategy of Aznar and Bush. It is worth remembering that the Spanish were one of the most vocal countries against the war, opinion polls varied between 83 - 94% opposition to the war and feelings ran especially high when Spanish journalists were murdered by US troops who fired on their hotel.

Now, why would Al Qaeda do that? On the one hand they may just not give a shit and are happy to attack within a country whose leadership they detest. (After all the attack on the twin towers in 9/11/01 wasn't an attack calculated to make ordinary Americans hostile to US ventures in the Middle East.).

Anyway, food for thought.

by Chekov Fri Mar 12, 2004 02:29

I reckon the various small islamist terrorist groups don't really give a shit who opposed the war and will blow up any old person. This type of attack would make sense from their point of view as they have the very same strategy of Bush and Aznar - to divide the world into us and them and draw the lines clearly in the religious wars that they look forward to. For the islamists its a stupid strategy as they are going to lose every time and lose badly, whereas for Bush and all it's a smart one as they get to keep the people behind them and they get all the oil and power. Which is why so few muslims are involved in the islamist groups and so many westerners are actively supporting the Bush version of religious war.

I think the bigger question is whether there are any islamist groups active in the West who would be capable of such an attack. If there are, what the hell have they been doing for the last 3 years while the US kicked butt in their holy places? There is no evidence to support this that I know of.

In any case, nobody has any real evidence yet of who did it. A tape of islamic education in a van is not very convincing. It could have been anybody from Islamists to state forces to ETA. If you think you know, you are just demonstrating your blinkered world view. The media is not very helpful in the early hours after such massacres .

by Barney Fri Mar 12, 2004 03:08

These savages who slaughter innocent people have nothing to do with the religion practiced by a billion peopleon this planet.

Everyone one but the bigots understand this simple fact.

It's like saying Omagh happened because of Catholicism.

PS, please don't delete the bigots, it's even more stupid to do that.

by Eoghan H Fri Mar 12, 2004 04:36

Ah, so it wasn't the ETA, or the IRA. Now how did we get that wrong? maybe we were just reacting in a knee-jerk way to make the world fit into our own prejudices.
I cant rationalise that. They must be guilty of something. Maybe we could at least get them for having guilty thoughts, or bad breath, or something, anything.

by R Isible Fri Mar 12, 2004 06:31

What is your take on the situation? You're probably better placed than any of us to evaluate this and are more likely to hear news quickly.

by gargoyle Fri Mar 12, 2004 07:06

Oh it has everything to do with the religion practiced by a billion people. I challenge you to actually READ the Quran. Read Muhammed's directions on what to do with infidels. Read how Muhammed came to power. Read how he pillaged and enslaved and gloated about it. This is the founder and prophet of Islam. Read the Quran and try to tell me it is a "Religion of Peace. Just because there are good Muslims doesn't mean the religion is good.

by Sinn Fein Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:49

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams MP MLA has condemned yesterdays series of bomb attacks in Madrid which have caused great loss of life. Mr Adams said:

"This is an appalling act. It is wrong and those involved should stop.

" Like everyone else I have been horrified by the images of this mornings atrocity and my thoughts and prayers are with the bereaved families and those who have been injured."

by Righteous pragmatist Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:00

There have been three world wars.
1914- 1918- the fight was against imperialism.
America won by defeating German militarism.
1939- 1945 WW2- The fight was against National Socialism, fascism and japanese imperialism.
America won.
1917-1989- the fight was against Communism.
America won.
Now the fourth is being fought.
2001- present- the fight is against worldwide terrorism and rogue nations who support it.
The Taliban have been defeated.
3000 Al-Qaeda members were killed in Afghanistan.
Iraq which was developing WMD and butchering its own citizens has been defeated and the Iraqis freed from slavery.
Saddam has been captured.
Next are Libya, Syria, Iran and Sadi Arabia.
Gaddaffi, Abbas, the ayatollahs and the shiekhs will soon be joining Saddam on the end of a rope.
The terror groups were up against are ETA, IRA, PLO, FARC and the Anti-globalisation movement.
They will all be defeated totally.
And who will win this war?
AMERICA!
THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM LIVES ON!
BRING IT ON!

by Part of the Resistance Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:11

Bring it on!!!
1, 2, a thousand Mogadishu's

by observer Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:21

Will you be venturing out to confront evil, or are you expecting them to call to your bedroom?

by He who hath abandoned all hope Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:38

You have won me over to your cause. People like you have convinced me of the need for a global abortion. The sooner Amerikkka brings it on the sooner it will be all over. Yes, all over really. Its the only solution.

Israeli army: a sensible approach?

George Bush: the man to bring about global peace?

God: a good idea?

America: a better idea?

American and British bombs: welcomed by the Iraqis?

Iraq war: bringing an end to terror?

The Third World War: left out of the history books?

I know your answer to all the above is 'yes'. And thats why I love you.

by observer in europe Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:52

Yesterday at least 198 lights went out in Spain, I believe in the direct aftermath it is only appropriate to condemn this act without further comment.
Comments like those from Cork Anti War and those who attack any other political party are blatant and despicable attempts to score points.
I would have expected better and believe that this is not the profile anyone should seek.
Let us be united in sorrow for at least a couple of days.

by John Meehan Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:54

One of the Editorial Group comments :

"I'm going to leave the thread as it is. I think those that saw this as an opportunity to jump on SF have now got serious egg on their faces. Perhaps a useful lesson for all those that leap about slinging mud."

Maybe a lesson - maybe not.

People listening to, for example, Vincent Browne's RTE Radio 1 Programme last night, heard a responsible restrained and very cautious discussion about what group may have caused the explosions. It was full of warnings not to jump to hasty conclusions.

That's what distinguishes serious informed journalism from tabloid knee-jerk stuff. It means we have better political discussion and analysis - something we should encourage on alternative media outlets.

So, faced with a choice @ the moment - I would recommend people listen to the VB radio programme on a subject like this, rather than follow Indymedia threads - I would prefer it was the other way round - or, at least, we could say a reader of Indymedia Ireland would get a useful discussion complementing listening to a good radio or TV programme, or reading a useful article.

A similar and related problem has occurred with the Indymedia Ireland news item on the McDowell racist citizenship referendum proposal - in that case a band on anonymistas and pseudonymistas hopped in attacking Ivana Bacik, the Labour Party, and later galloped in with ridiculous attacks on SF.

Time, again, to review the too lax rules allowing tabloid shit-stirring on the site, especially from anonymistas.

For what is worth, I think most of the believable evidence produced so far indicates the atrocity was more likely to have been carried by an Al Qaeda type of group.

by Republican Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:00

"and later galloped in with ridiculous attacks on SF"

Stop it, your killing me.

by iosaf o as if ipsiphi Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:13

as a new thread.
it has twice been taken down and moved to be read as a comment to the article above.

So I'm not giving you "my take".

and I would like you to delete the texts I wrote seperately as I did not upload them as comment to the article above.

the texts being:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63790&condense_comments=false#comment64909
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63790&condense_comments=false#comment64962

thank you.

by iosaf Fri Mar 12, 2004 13:06

192 muertos y 1430 heridos.
192 dead 1430 wounded.

sign a book of condolence.

by Anonymous X Fri Mar 12, 2004 13:18

And meanwhile every 31/2 seconds, someone in the world dies from hunger. And America & the West (though not only) have a MASSIVE culpability in this.

And meanwhile America remains the most economical unequal society in the western world where 14% of the population go without any health insurance at all.

"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind. "

Adam Smith

Source: An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations

From Adam Smith, one of the very founders of American capitalism. His comment, of course, is just another expression of Darwinism.

Great victories indeed by our current master of mankind.

Where will it all end?

Regards,

by Padjoe - Irish Anti-War Group Fri Mar 12, 2004 13:37 padjoe at o2 dot ie

THE SAME MURDERING, SCHEMING GROUP THAT ORCHESTRATED THE 9-11 ATTACKS HAVE CARRIED OUT THE TRAIN BOMBING IN MADRID. The MOSSAD is the Isreali secret service. There is a mountain of evidence that they arranged 9-11. This recent bombing is all part of the plan to create European sympathy for the 'war on terrorism' . The US has about 400,000 troops and they have 320,000 deployed around the globe, mostly in Iraq. They want bring more European troops into Iraq so that they will have more US troops with which to invade Syria and Iran. Keep an eye on WHATREALLYHAPPENED.COM for more info.

by the hungary Fri Mar 12, 2004 14:17

I dont know your personal consumption habits but if you could possibly get to all the world's hungry (including the billion starving in India, China and N. Korea) it would cost USD 19 bln to solve the hunger, the west spends 18 bln on pet food and 17 bln on cosmetics per year. Lets not blame governments - we have the power and we also vote for them and this is never an election issue.

Padjoe - either you have had the benefit of an epiphany or you are believing what you want to, given your prejudices. Simply have respect for the dead today.

by kokomero Fri Mar 12, 2004 14:45

Bring it on he says! What like Bush said when he invaded Iraq plunging the country into chaos. If the past century has told us anything it is that you do not shoot first and ask questions later. There is ample proof in the world that this simply does not work and that a very high price is paid to contain terrorists on the basis of dogma by military means rather than solving the root problems for a fraction of the human and financial cost. Until people like you finally wake up to reality, these problems will continue to fester and be contained rather than solved, thus keeping the right-wingers like the PP in power and their military-industrial backers fat with our cash while the government sits back and "contains" the problem, choosing to "accept" a "tolerable" level of civilian casualties!

by Lone Gunman Fri Mar 12, 2004 17:26

The Isrealis did it!According to whatreallyhappened.
Righhhhtttt!!!Keep taking your thorazine!! I did state it wouldnt be long before the conspircy theory nuts got to work on this.

Intresting little ditty on Al quiedas outlook on Spain.They wish to return it to the Muslim empire,that existed about 800 years ago in our calender.
[Muslims use a calender that puts 2004 at about 1432 or thereabouts].
Considering that there is enough of them sitting in algeria,tunsia and morocco it is looking like that is where they could have launched from.
What sort of a mindset is that?One that really holds a grudge.How are you going to "negoiate" with anyone with that sort of mindset?There is only one thing that the muslim mindset understands and they admit it themselves.it is FORCE!NOTHING ELSE!
Now some group related to Alquieda has claimed responsibility and has promised"the wings of black death is 90% ready God willing to be deliverd on the Crusaders."
Bring it on.If they do I think to use the words of the song." Baby,you aint seen nuthin yet!"
Glow in the dark vey hot[for the next 500 years or so].Mecca and Messina perhaps?Intresting times ahead yet folks.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Fri Mar 12, 2004 17:34

You telling me?
by righteous pragmatist Thursday, Mar 11 2004, 6:34pm
US and UK did not set out to kill civilians.
The vast majority of Iraqi dead were soldiers.
The target of the war was to destroy the threat of Saddam's regime

.....etc

Me: What they set out to do is anybody’s fecking guess at this stage!

There is absolutely no doubt, though, that they have killed more civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq then any terrorist group could manage in it’s wet dreams.
All reputable sources (of what ever political hue) would agree that civilian casualties VASTLY outnumbered military ones – as is true in most wars

“According to an official tally kept by the Pentagon, 553 U.S. soldiers have been killed in the invasion of Iraq and the occupation. No reliable figures for the numbers of Iraqi civilian casualties have been kept by the Americans, or by any Iraqi organization, but estimates range from about 10,000 to as high as 20,000”

(http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/8157109.htm?1c)

"Thousands of Iraqi civilians are believed to have been killed or injured by U.S. troops since the war began nearly a year ago, but at least half of the victims' families haven't received restitution, human rights workers say."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woiraq0307,0,4433713.story?coll=ny-world-big-pix

And an excellent article on “disappearing the dead” by the Massachusetts-based Project on Defense Alternatives (PDA).

"These facts, despite precision attack capabilities and specific targeting procedures, help explain why US military operations have claimed the lives of 50,000 people worldwide (combatants and non-combatants) during the age of precision warfare (beginning with Desert Storm in 1991, while during the preceding 14 years overt US operations claimed the lives of approximately 2,000 people)"

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FB27Ak02.html

But sure righteous bull shitter has never let the truth stand in the way of a half cocked rant before and will forget about the dead od Sapin as quickly as the rest of the world has "forgotten" about Iraq

Conor

by Idiot Fri Mar 12, 2004 17:36

It is interesting to gauge the different reactions to this terrible act and the recent terrorist attacks in Iraq. There is, I believe, an inherent racism in our sympathy. Of course we have cultural and other links to Spain in a way we do not have to many other parts of the world. In the case of Iraq we, the west, created the circumstances for the terrorist attacks to take place; in Spain the role of outsiders is peripheral. Surely more sympathy is due to those whose innocent deaths we had a direct role in causing than those who were well protected by a strong and terrorist state. But Iraqi's aren't white, they're not even human.

It's also funny that there is so much scorn poured on those who come and say 'they had it coming' or 'you reap what you sow'. But when a similar much more devastating act was perpetrated against the Americans you couldn't stop you 'good' lefties from proclaiming this. In fact this perverse joy was all over the liberal and left papers. Now it is sorrow without conditions. You by your actions have created a shameful situation where life means more when it is white AND European. You are filth and it brings me great shame to associate with so much evil.

by rod Fri Mar 12, 2004 20:03

Britain's ex defence Secretary , Michael Portillo, speaking on the Andrew Neill show last night ,said that sources within 10 Downing St had told him that the British government have known since 9a.m. yesterday that the bombs were planted by al quaida.

by Northern Eye Fri Mar 12, 2004 21:45

Interesting wee theory here: the Spanish Gov know rightly it was the Al Queda but are blaming the Basques because of the up-coming elections. You see, if people think it was ETA they'll vote for the PP in their droves because of their hardline stance on ETA. But if they believe it to be Islamic terrorists they'll blame the PP for bringing it upon Spain by their support of the Iraq war and utterly destroy them at the polls.

by o as if Fri Mar 12, 2004 21:47

I have gone to the street today.
in silence.
without idiocy.
without partisan insult, accusation and recrimination.
I return to this site, and find yet again, that postings relating to the atrocity in Madrid have been taken down by the editors.
Our american readers are now presented with a thread which goes no-where.
Are we to think they read all these comments? Are we to think they are forming a balanced reaction?
Which editors have taken this decision to compact all serious and heartfelt comment with the trolls?

Black ribbons became the spontanous expression of shock, horror and revulsion.


C/f black ribbons:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63825
if that article is not there, then complain to the moderator of this site, and the editors who have manipulated this thread and write a letter to indymedia global.
be your media.

by raised on mtv Fri Mar 12, 2004 22:49

How touching.

by - Sat Mar 13, 2004 13:29

the american patriotic reaction is the kneejerk on our Western Collective Power to Defend and Offend.
It worries me greatly.

by Desmond Fennell Sat Mar 13, 2004 18:55

Over a million lefties marching on the street will have zero effect on your personal safety. It will however make a good laugh for OBL and his cronies. just as they laughed about 9/11.

The only way to deal with these deranged Islamofascists is the Bush way and he and the international force are doing a fantastic job.

by De Watcher Sat Mar 13, 2004 20:54

"Desmond Fennell's" kneejerk reaction to this atrocity is to use it as an opportunity to attack the Left. He is just a cheap and nasty little troll, always ready to turn human misery into a tool to further the aims of the western establishment.

by Northern Eye Sun Mar 14, 2004 02:35

Yes Des, GWB really has stopped the terror attacks on the West. The man is a genius.

Do you ever stop to consider why there is an Al'Qaeda at all. I know they are a nasty cancer but they only exist as a reaction to the West's corrupt dealings in the Islamic world. GWB and the type bring this destrution on the heads of their own people because of their dirty forgien policies and its only the innocent who suffer. How can they get away with this and convince the people that Al'Qaeda is attcking the West just for the reason that they don't like its democratic ways and freedom of expresion? : because of cretinous gung-ho apes like yerself. Ah well, its only going to be the little people that suffer and have their lives ruined for the sake of big money and Zionism anyway. From a right-wing point of view Al'Qaeda are the best thing that could have happened to the USA. They'll keep the arms industry in business for another generation at least.

A''Qaeda cannot be defeated by military means. Only the end of one injustice can bring about the end of another.

If I lived in a country such as Britain or the States I'd certainly be looking for an way to end this corruption before a member of my family had to pay for it.

by Desmond Fennell Sun Mar 14, 2004 02:51

Try to avoid ad hominem attacks, they destroy the credibility of your argument.

Anyway, what you wrote is the usual Guardian reader's PC crap designed to make you feel good by blaming Amerikka for all the crappy things that happen in the world.

If you want to be an apologist for terrorism go right ahead, I'll stick with my American friends.

by gargoyle Sun Mar 14, 2004 02:53

The only peace to be had with Al Queda is to surrender to their wishes, eh? Ok, maybe you are willing to put up with the destruction of Israel, the movement of the entire arab world to Sharia law and the re-muslimication of Spain (see Osama's comments on "The Tragedy of Andalucia which show that he believes spain is muslim soil). Most of the western world, however, is not.

The only question is, how many times must this happen and how many people must die before the inevitable is done. If OBL wants a war of the west vs. the Islamic world, then his side isn't going to win. Lets hope they get their fucking act together before it comes to that. I personally do not see that happening, however.

by Northern Eye Sun Mar 14, 2004 05:41

I stand by my American friends also - thats why I don't want to see them murdered because of the cancer their own government helped create.

And yes, I am prepared to put up with the end of the Israeli state. The country of Palestine was invaded ( in living memory) by religious fascists no better than Al'Qaeda or Hamas, the Palestinans threw off their homes and farmland and a campaign of murder and subjugation was waged against them, which still goes on to this day. Of course the Jews needed to feel safe somewhere after what happened to them in the 1940's but they absurdly choose the one part of the world to go and live where they would be in most danger. The argument that this land was given to them by the Invisible Man Who Lives In The Sky is tragic. And when they first came to that land so many thousand years ago they slaughtered and inslaved the people who already lived there and did so with the blessings of this invisible man whom they created with their own minds. Go and read the Bible, its one of the most immoral, evil books ever written, right up there with Mein Kampf.

And, oh yeah, the West really cares for the well-being of the Muslim people. Its fighting this war for their democratic rights. Thats why it supports all the dictators in the Arab world whom it can get on their side (including the regime in Saudi Arabia who practise Sharia law), and why it supports the Zionist Nazis who are murdering the Palestinans. Maybe some day it hopes the Palestinans can have democracy in their refugee camps.

So, go ahead, try and stop Al'Qaeda by force, but I know it cannot be done. The war the West will rage can only bring more and more outrages upon its people and create millions more fanatics in the East. The male-ego so prominent in this age cannot see that simple truth, so I suppose we're all pretty much fucked. Whenever Bin Ladens chum's find a way to make nuclear devices (which, lets face it, if this conflict keeps on is only a matter of time) then any chance for life and peace is over. So people need to stand back at this crucial moment and ask themselves is it all worth it just to prop up a Nazi state and feel good about being global cowboys.

by european eye Sun Mar 14, 2004 21:14

you and your fellow citizens are crucial to understanding how to approach this problem.
The French are currently trying to elaborate a "psychological profile" of AlQ recruits.
any thoughts?

by Northern Eye Mon Mar 15, 2004 00:53

Ohhhhhhh, you are awful!

by Garman Lach Mon Mar 15, 2004 04:56

psychologists would be better employed exmaining themselves and their own pseudo-intellectual motivations of control.

They are at nothing except profit and exploit, label and individualise. they can never see the wood for the trees.

watch the crows in the media, even some in this one, circle for the kill around peace processes, potential or otherwise.

by gargoyle Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:48

Al Queda can be stopped by force, but the restructuring of Islamic society cannot take place as it is now. It is foolish of the US to think they can impose democratic ideals on Iraq, for example. The two most notable successes of the transformation of a society, Germany and Japan, happened only after the populations were utterly and completely defeated, their wills broken. So yes, the Islamic world can be dragged into the 21st century by force, but not nearly enough force has been applied yet. History tells us it can only happen after the Islamic world has been totally broken, brought to its knees, wholely defeated. How many will have to die for that to happen? Who knows? The Islamic world has a choice, but the west has as well. Rest assured that the western world will not tolerate endless attacks. The responses will get larger and larger, the attacks will get larger and larger, etc. That course is inevitable. On the other hand, if the western world had done what needed to be done from the beginning, use all it's military resources to break the back Islamic world at the very beginning of all this, millions of lives could have been saved.

by iosaf Mon Mar 15, 2004 18:18

from suicide cliff in Guam rather than surrender.
20 years after the nuclear bombs japanese soldiers were still being collected from isolated pacific islands. They were told at first that they had won the war, and were collected by other Japanese flying their own WW2 colours.
The lesson was simple, they were prepared to fight to the death. The reaction to the nuclear devices was one of divine intervention. It is still possible, that if the Japanese high command had understood the nature of the weapon used against them they would have continued to fight.

We learn and teach history in the western psychological and spiritual mindset. We know the nuclear bombs ended the war. We know the technological advances of German and American scientists building on the theory of Einstein gave us the dawn of Shiva.
We do not learn that the surrender was not a result of technology but rather what was percieved by the japanese as Shiva.

We do not have such a Shiva today, which is why the war on terror was presented in terms of "searching for Shiva". You know as well as anyone that humanity survives nuclear devices. You know as well as anyone that those who walked out of Hiroshima felt the same things all face at massacre:-
Disbelief, Shock, Grief which turns to Anger, Wrath and then Calm.

Psychology in the schoolroom or the highstreet is as useful as a paracetemol you're right Garman Lach (lovely name), but psychology gives Shiva another name.

Nuking will not stop this war. The fear of nuking only worked for a short time. IT is incidently long past time we closed our nukes.

by Anonymous X Mon Mar 15, 2004 20:55

You mention above:-

"Al Queda can be stopped by force"

I very much doubt it. Terrorism is the one, and probably only, force, that even the might of the U.S. military (and the rest of the west) cannot defeat. Contain to some extent maybe - defeat, I don't think so. The might of the British found this out in Northern Ireland even though their opponent was much smaller than Al Queda. And Al Queda have the advantage over the IRA that their target area is infinitely greater than that of the IRA's.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

by gargoyle Mon Mar 15, 2004 22:29

Yes, but there is a significant difference between Al Queda and the IRA. The British were occupying a foreign land as a means of controlling the land for their own. Had the west wanted to own Germany or Japan rather than rebuild them, there likely would have been a great resistance to this among the local populace.

Fortunately, the west doesn't want to own the middle east. They don't want to conquer it and partition the spoils of war. They want terrorism to cease and decist. Much and all as we'd love to believe that Al Queda represents only a tiny fraction of the Islamic world in terms of world philosophy, the unfortunate facts ring out (See article in Sunday's Scotsman referring to a recent poll where 13% of British muslims support Al Queda style terrorist attacks and view them as justitfied).

The religious fanaticism of the current Islamic society is the problem. Not just Al Queda. This society has its roots and gets its funding directly from the Middle Eastern regimes. Because the US has propped up dictators in the Middle East, the dictators, wanting to direct the wrath of the populace away from themselves, create the militant brand of Islam blaming the west, and the US in particular, for all of their problems.

Will it take force to defeat Al Queda?Probably. BUT, possibly not. IF the western world redevotes itself FULLY to discovering a viable form of alternative energy and is willing to invest the time and financial resources into implementing that solution, they can starve the terrorists of a good bit of the resources they use to wage their campaigns. The US created the oil cartels by exempting the middle eastern oil markets from antitrust restrictions, principally to punish the USSR for having a free market, and it worked, but it also led to wealth concentration and oppression in the Middle East that has, in turn, led to the current situation. The situation is now an albatros around the neck of western civilization.

If Al Queda continues to get funding, then the only reasonable conclusion one can reach is that the attacks will escalate, the responses will escalate, as described previously. Eventually, one of the terrorist attacks will be so great in magnitude that the western world we be prepared to go to any means to defend itself, at which point many, many muslims will die. Some innocent, some not, but the attack or attacks will mount until they are large enough that western society will finally be prepared to accept the inevitability of their actions.

Unless the western world is prepared to invest the billions of euros/dollars it will take to create viable alternative energy infastructure, starve the Middle East of the financial resources they currently get from the sale of oil, and force them into a free market economy, the end result is all to frighteningly predicatable.

If they aren't prepared to do that, the west might as well use all military power against the Middle East right now in response to the Madrid attack, bring them wholly and totally to their knees, taking however many that entails, because unless a new energy course is charted, it will come to that eventually anyway.

by Grimwald Mon Mar 15, 2004 23:04

The Spanish electorate, widely epected to re-elect Aznar show their fear by electing an appeasing Socialist government.

What great encouragement for Al Qaeda!

Their act of savagery has had an immediate effect on the voters of Spain who gave in to terrorists and changed their minds about voting for Aznar in the space of a few hours.

This will embolden Al Qaeda to slaughter more innocent civilians.

If I was Spanish I would hang my head in shame.

by grimshaw Mon Mar 15, 2004 23:28

telling the population self-serving lies and were found out. This combined with lingering anger over the government ignoring the clearly expressed rejection of involvement in the us uk invasion of Iraq was enough to kick out the PP. Democracy under duress but clearly democracy. 1/4 entire population on the street on Friday . 1 death as a result of the ensuing civil conflict. An election. Reasonable calm. Good on them.

by Badman Tue Mar 16, 2004 00:04

The bombing has seemingly backfired on Al Qaeda. The only possible rationale for them to carry out such a bombing would be that it would cause tthe Spaniards to support the West's war 'against islam' . The Spanish voters have shown an amazing amount of sophistication by reacting in the opposite way and refusing to dance to the tune of Al Qaeda. It's just a pity that the PSOE is more than likely going to betray them in turn. Troops out NOW!

by Grimwald Tue Mar 16, 2004 01:39

They gave in to terrorists. Al Qaeda now think they can influence elections anywhere in the world.

Spanish people have given Al Qaeda encouragment to go on bombing.

No wonder they lost their empire so fast - no backbone.

by gargoyle Tue Mar 16, 2004 06:19

umm, how can someone possibly draw the conclusion that Al Queda wanted to keep the Popular Party in charge with the train bombing? Someone is a bit thick here, either you or the Al Queda crowd, and if Al Queda were really that stupid, this whole "war on terror" thing should would have been over already.

by flick - none Tue Mar 16, 2004 06:32 7373775

I heard that they are launching a new plan to find out the hometowns of the madrid terrorits and bomb the terrorists home town family mosq I wonder what they hope to achieve by destroyng a mosq even it was the treorists, The thought is if the mosque is producing killers so the plan is a take home plan and justly speak that "if your teaching hate and growing a terrorists, you will be shut down and will not send more. Others will see the payback and not want their mosq bombed. someong got tough

by . Tue Mar 16, 2004 06:49

ug? uh? you wha? are you a monkey?

by foog Fri Oct 29, 2004 21:00

Awful atrocity.

by iosaf Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:16

198 people died on simultanous bombings of trains carrying the commuters from the poorest suburbs of Madrid. a quarter of the murdered were non-regularised migrants.
1,400 were seriously injured.
a further 5000 were injured.
Within six months 30% of Madrid had sought psychological help.
in a city only one hours flight from Ireland.
& it took 36 hours before the truth sunk in that a government facing a general election 3 days later had instructed media and embassies to give false information.
This media organisation "indymedia" globally corrected the lie. Working with elements of the state and commercial media in and beyond Spain and on an unprecedented communication from the Spanish secret service. Yet there were those in every indymedia collective including Ireland who thought they knew better...
40,000 citizens and individuals risked their lives as 2 reprisal murders
occured to ensure the world would learn the truth by blockading the governments offices.
Spain and the Spanish society went to the brink, as it had not gone since Feb 23 1981.
It was so close to home, and yet so far, that i will never stop wondering-
how can we believe anything?
History was made but the dead are still absent.
& the survivors still suffer.
The spokesperson of the victims Pilar Manjon was to leave her home of Madrid in 2005 where her son died 2 years ago today, because of death threats from right wing extremists.
Their deaths were utterly needless.

Rest In Peace.

may the absent rest in peace