Protest in support of a free Tibet

by VenusInFurs - UCD Thu Feb 26, 2004 18:02

And whats your alternative? A 'free' Tibet under the rule of his divine holiness, the Dalai Lama? Would you like to see Tibet regress to the feudal ages and see all social gains destroyed? Destroy the tractors, bring back the ox and the wooden plough!

Would you like to see a return when the majority of males prayed shite in the monastries whilst the women toiled in the fields as was the case before China socially liberated Tibet? What would happen to the 45% Han Chinese population that live in the region? Kick 'em out?!

It is absurd for socialists to call for Tibet's right to self-determination given the very large minority of Han Chinese living in the region. Communal conflict, as what happened in Yugoslavia following capitalist restoration, would be inevitable. Tibet's political and spiritual leaders, whom Western Capitalism, c-list movie 'stars' and the liberal left line up behind, would subjugate women and destroy all of the social gains workers enjoy in Tibet. The only democracy socialists should be calling for is workers democracy and the destruction of the stalinist bureaucracy who daily screw all workers in China.

In fact, the whole 'Free Tibet' movement is pushed by Imperialism in order to undermine the planned nature of China's economy. If they are so concerned about national liberation, why don't they call for freedom for Palestine, Kurdistan, Basque region etc. Nah, couldn't undermine their allies like that!

If Joe brought up the crimes of the Chinese bureaucracy, then i sure as hell hope he brought up the crimes of the Irish state, who exploit workers, oppress Travellers, deport Immigrants and deny women the right to control their bodies. The main enemy is at home!

by deirdre Thu Feb 26, 2004 23:06

Westerners view Tibetan nationalists as somehow culturally superior to the plain, boring chinese. In reality the outdated mumbu jumbo of the Dalai lama, is just another backward sacred religious holy cow, that needs pulling down and overhauling.

by True Anarchist Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:02

There is no difference between them. Only a revolution based on the principles of Organise! will free the people of Tibet. In the meantime the Tibetans should make friends with the Chinese Workers In Uniform.

by Joe Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:14

'True anarchist' above is clearly the same SP/SY member who has posted elsewhere with'King Chekov' stuff. Can someone in the SP please explain to the puppies the meaning of the term provocation. And in particular how attempting to sow splits in this manner is the work of the cops and should be left to them alone.

[They seem to be doing the same thing across a couple of threads]

by VenusInFurs - UCD Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:16

Well done, brillant analysis! You're very much divorced from reality if you think you seriously think the rule of the Dalai Lama and the rule of the Stalinist bureaucrats are one and the same. As bad as stalinist China is, I'm sure women in particular would be able to make the distinction.

by Curious Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:40

Joe is right. But it would be interesting to know if either Orghanise or thw WSM see a difference between the Chinese occupieres and the Tibetan resistance, not all of whom support the Dali Llama.

by Joe Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:54

Curious you are feeding the trolls by responding to their provocations. As far as I'm aware neither organisation either has a position on Tibet or has written about it. I'd be interested in such a discussion on irishanarchism if you wish to ask there but not here where it would be rewarding provocation of the worst sort.

You can join Irish Anarchism at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishanarchism There are 260 people on this public list includling lurkers from all the trot parties. (one of whom sometimes posts) If you prefer hold onto the question for some point at which it is not such an obvious reward for the provocator.

by VenusInFurs - UCD Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:56

I too would be very interested to hear what Anarchists have to say on the issue. In particular, i would be very interested to hear from those who advocate a state capitalist analysis on the question of China, Cuba etc. Also, if there is anyone from the CPI or the Workers Party out there, i would similarly be very interested to hear your views on the question. More than ANYTHING however, i really want to see an informed debate on the issue! Trolls can feck off.

I concede the question of a 'free' Tibet is a very challenging one to deal with. If time presents itself, i'll try to post a short history of TIbet and the advances made there in the last 50 years.

by Curious Fri Feb 27, 2004 13:06

Organise have posted on another thread, it was somewhat ambiguous about their position regarding occupied countries. That is why I am asking it here. You are acting like a trot by trying to move the debate off Indymedia. I didnt think either you or Organise were the type to hide things.

by Ray Fri Feb 27, 2004 13:11

"As far as I'm aware neither organisation either has a position on Tibet or has written about it. "

If neither organisation has a position on Tibet and China, how can anyone discuss it? It doesn't exist. We might as well discuss your spine, or your sincere interest in Tibet.

by Joe Fri Feb 27, 2004 13:11

As already said I'm not rewarding a provocation. I'll sometimes respond to trolls but what 'True anarchist' is up to above is a LOT more damaging then trolling. I've offered you the option of either a response now on another public forum or a response later on a thread removed from the provocation.

by VenusInFurs - UCD Fri Feb 27, 2004 13:31

Hear's a suggestion... now bear with me. Maybe, just maybe, an anarchist can think outside the limited scope of his/her organisation. Then again, i know shitloads of anarchists who don't belong or affiliate to an organisation. I can see this thread is about to descend into a farce once again. For the sake of a proper discussion, let's just deal with the topic, and ONLY the topic. Starting............NOW.

by Jonno Fri Feb 27, 2004 13:53

Joe, what makes you think that whoever is trolling against the WSM (and somebody certainly is) is a member of the Socialist Party or Socialist Youth? There is absolutely no evidence for that at all. I just took a look at the two threads you mention and there is no reason at all to think that the culprit is a member of any particular organisation.

by Curious Fri Feb 27, 2004 13:58

But in general do the WSM and Organise see no difference between Imperialist occupation forces and those who choose to resist them?

Jonno may well be right, nothing here to show that the SP were behind the trolling. While I have Jonnos attention could I ask how he would analyse the Tibet situation (just to keep things on topic)?

by Post-Modernist Fri Feb 27, 2004 14:11

True Anarchist may be satirising an Anarchist position but hes not far wrong. Neither the WSM nor Organise see any difference between the Chinese buthchering Monks and schoolchildren OR the Tibetan Resistance killing Chinese soldiers.

by Joe Fri Feb 27, 2004 14:13

I'm not responding to the provocations here for the reasons outline. I will do so in the other public forum mentioned.

Johnno I'm 90% sure this is a SY member because it is part of a LONG LONG record of such provocations from them going back over 18 months. In terms of the language used, its is that of orthodox trotskyism rather than anarchism which is a giveaway that the author is not an anarchist.

by Jonno Fri Feb 27, 2004 14:23

Joe, I would also guess from looking at the comments that the person responsible isn't an anarchist, but there is still no evidence at all that he or she is a member of the SP or of SY. I realise that you are sincere in your view but bandying that kind of accusation around only has the effect of adding to the all-round irritation that any good troll is out to cause.

For what it's worth - I think that the behaviour of anonymous trolls on this site is reprehensible no matter who happens to be on the receiving end this week.

by VenusInFur - UCD Fri Feb 27, 2004 14:25

Getting bored of this shit! I'm an orthodox trot, doesn't necessarily mean i'm a troll. Focus on the topic people!

by Watcher Fri Feb 27, 2004 14:48

It has all of their hallmarks. Jonno you are different from most of the litter but you still blindly bark the party line. You growled the line on Shannon and a few days ago you defended the Michael O'Brien voting to expell the IAWM dissidents.

by Jonno Fri Feb 27, 2004 15:02

Watcher manages to cover all the indymedia trolling bases in just a few lines:

1) Write anonymously
2) Attack a political organisation
3) Attack an individual
4) Bring in some irrelevent issues that could get a heated debate going again.

Such an ability to pack so much in to such a short space is almost admirable. The point is that I could respond by claiming that he or she is a member of the WSM or SWP or Sinn Fein or Labour or anyone else you can think of. I won't, even though I may have my suspicions, because doing so will only add to the troll's impact.

The way to deal with trolls is to point out what they are doing and then ignore them. "Watcher" will almost certainly respond by attacking me or the Socialist Party again, perhaps under a different name. But what is the point of responding? A troll isn't interested in reasoned debate, or in answers to questions.

by Joe Fri Feb 27, 2004 15:22

I sometimes respond to trolls if they are raising an interesting point. That is not the issue here. What is the issue is that an orthodox trot is pretending to be an anarchist on two seperate threads in order to provoke a fight between two of the anarchist organisations on the island. That is not trolling, that is provocation plain and simple.

On this thread they post at 11.02 am as 'True anarchist' but go on about 'workers in uniform' a phrase out of inter trot disputes, They also use a SWP type slogan (misdirection).

On http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63534 they posted as 'Proudhon' at 10.39am. They refer to Chekov as the 'Anarchist King', another anonymous SP post the previous day (from the same person?) referred to him as the 'king of the grassroots gathering' (they seem obsessed with kings and popes!). That post includes terms like 'cadres' and misspells 'makhnovists' again pointing to an orthodox trot pretending to be an anarchist. Again there is an attempt to misdirect the finger of suspicion to the SWP.

As I said already this is part of a long history of similar posts. All have consisted of someone who is obviously an orthrodox trot posting a comment from an anarchist type name that is designed to cause friction between Irish anarchists. The early occurances from their wording etc were very obviously from an SP member (this has been discussed on Irish Anarchism with an SP member on that list). More recently they have tried to be clever and write their provocations in a way that (badly) implies an SWP source.

by Quoter Fri Feb 27, 2004 16:16

>
> as those of you who regularly follow indymedia will
> be aware someone
> has resumed posting regular 'fake' anarchist posts
> there designed to
> stir up shit between anarchists here in Ireland.
[...]
> There may be more then one person involved but the
> repeat posting using the form QUALIFIER-anarchist
> have a political pattern to them that point STRONGLY
> at someone in Socialist Youth/Socialist Party. The
> SP lurkers on the list are welcome to deny this but
> I would strongly advise you to have an internal
> education for your SY leaders on what the
> consequences
> of this sort of idiocy are.

As a Socialist Party member on this list, I'll answer
you if you like (are there other SP members here?).

Indymedia isn't a suitable forum for serious political
discussion of any kind and it isn't designed to be. It
is a useful news-service.

The vitriolic atmosphere and the limitless number of
psuedonyms available to anyone with a grudge and some
time on their hands makes it nearly impossible to
engage in reasonable discussion about anything.

I am interested by Andrew's advice that anarchists
should use this list rather than Indymedia for
internet based debate. He is of course right.

This kind of list is much more suitable because you
know roughly who you are talking to. Of course if
somebody from the Socialist Party was to say something
similar there would arise an anonymous chorus of "you
are afraid of open debate blah blah blah".

I am more entertained by Andrew's claims that whoever
posted those messages on Indymedia is a member of the
SP or Socialist Youth. Over the last year people have
posted more than two dozen messages in my name trying
to stir up trouble. Stephen Boyd must have been
impersonated going on for a hundred times.

People with a grudge have gone to the bother of
inventing entirely fictitious SP members to write all
kinds of abuse aimed at just about anyone you can
think of. Any type of impersonation you can think of
has been used.

I have little doubt that "platformist anarchist" isn't
really an anarchist (presumably all of the
platformists in Ireland actually know each other).
That means that somebody else was pretending to be an
anarchist and is indeed trying to stir up trouble.
That's the nature of indymedia at the moment and
anarchists are far less likely to be on the receiving
end of it than the Socialist Party is.

It's not impossible that "platformist anarchist" is
some member of the SP or SY acting the prick, although
I suspect otherwise. I have no more way of knowing
than I have of knowing who it is who has been posting
things under my name.

Anyone who posts to Indymedia under false pretences is
at best an idiot. It is wrong no matter who is doing
it. I think that's true when someone posts pretending
to be a "platformist anarchist" just as I think that
it's true when somebody posts claiming to be from the
SP.

Brian

by Nestor Fri Feb 27, 2004 16:32

1. Andrew gave no advice about lists.
2. No one posted as platformist anarchist.

Is Brian incapable of telling the truth? Why does he have to distort even the little things? I suppose if you are careful with the little lies then the big ones look after themselves.

I hope the ISPCC raids the puppy farm and releases them from their cruel conditions.

by ec Fri Feb 27, 2004 16:47

watcher and nestor - go piss in the corners of your own rooms

by Troll Watch Fri Feb 27, 2004 16:55

I just can't help myself from wanting to expose a troll like Nestor. I don't even agree with most of what Brian said, but here are the parts of Andrew's post that he was responding to:

Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 4:23 am

"There is a long running
pattern to this going on for well over a year. Some of the latest
examples are to be found in

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61344
('Platform anarchist' is an obvious fake, I strongly suspect
'bakunin' is as well)"

"1. As a warning to treat with a big pinch of salt
any indymedia post that comes from an anonymous 'anarchist'
and is clearly designed to stir up shit with other
anarchists. It's not that we don't have heated disagreements
but these tend to happen on this list (see the archive for
examples) and take place between either named individuals or
individuals using pseudonames that many people in the
movement will know who the real person is (or at least
which organisation they come from).

2. As a suggestion that we continue the pattern established
of arguing out issues here rather then indymedia and
doing so in the way that is non-anonymous to many if
not everyone in the movement. The 'bakunin' posting
on indymedia may be genuine (its unlikely) if so can I
suggest you get someone who is known to post here saying
that you are (and consider moving what you have to say
here anyway)."

The problem for trolls like Nestor is that these things are archived. Anyway, back to Tibet:

by Nestor Fri Feb 27, 2004 16:55

This Brian character started attributing comments and motives to persons who had not even posted about the article.

by Nestor Fri Feb 27, 2004 16:58

How could anyone know that Brian was talking about comments that were made 4 months ago? Are you for real?

by ec Fri Feb 27, 2004 17:01

But I suppose reading carefully is not exactly what motivates you. John Reed - ha fucking ha. Go piss on your foot somewhere else.

by Troll Watch Fri Feb 27, 2004 17:01

they were posted under the headline "the original exchange on Irish Anarchism"?

by Chinapaddy Mon Mar 01, 2004 02:40

And speaking to locals about this issue..

Those leftists who support china should be aware that the chinese program of relocating people to tibet and eastern turkmenistan(xin jiang) is an ongoing process and its restrictions on the birthrates of ethnic minorities is part of this process. The racism of the Han is very real.

By the way han ren posting on these boards would you be so kind to indicate your nationality such that we know where you are coming from...

by VenusInFurs - UCD Mon Mar 01, 2004 20:02

Jeez, I take a break from Indymedia for the w'end and come back to find the thread dominated by SP bashers. Not even going to indulge those persons by replying to that crap.

So Chinapaddy, my kind thanks for actually contributing something worthwhile to the debate!

Han chauvinism is indeed prevalent in China, and it is Tibetans and Muslims who generally feel the brunt of this. That is not in question. Nor do i believe there are many leftists who support the stalinist regime in China.

However, due recognition has to be paid to the huge social advances made in Tibet as a result of China introducing the planned economy to the region. Before the PLA smashed the feudal rule of the Tibetan monks, approximately 90% of the population were serfs and slaves. Ideological control through religion was not enoufgh on its own to suppress the resistance of the masses, so the rulers at the time held the exploited majority in check by the practice of unspeakable cruelty to terrorise them into submission. Illeteracy also stood at 90%.

But following the liberation of Tibet, formally in 1959, the vast majority of Tibetans enjoyed the abolition of forced labour and penal servitude. The Peasants Associations were given the power to expropriate the estates of all nobles and monastaries, which were then distributed amongst former serfs and slaves. Tibet also began to flourish in the industrial sector, with plants for power generation, mining, cement production and leather processing. Before the Revolution, Tibet had hardly any industry at all to speak of.

In addition to this, good wages and a medical welfare system have combined to increase life expectancy from 36 years in 1950 to 67 today. Unlike here in Ireland, education in Tibet is free right up to and including third-level!

The Dalai Lama is merely putty in the hands of the imperialist propaganda macine. Those who pay lip service to a 'free' Tibet are either willingly or unwillingly harking back to a time when Tibet, until recently, didn't even have the wheel! Never mind no schools, no hospitals, no plumbing or no roads. That is not to say Tibet is a 'socialist paradise'. The stalinist bureaucrats still preside over a China where political repression is rife and where the 'free' market economy continues to erode the planned economy, jeopardising all the social gains Chinese and Tibetan workers and peasants have won. Apologies in advance for the trot rhetoric(!), but Tibet can only properly be free when they, along with all workers in China, overthrow those parasitic bureaucrats and install real workers democracy in China and all its regions and provinces.

by Armed Miner - Red Faction Tue Mar 02, 2004 14:30 jonnycashlives at maninblack dot org

Cheers to the WSM cameraperson.

by VenusInFurs - UCD Tue Mar 02, 2004 14:50

Agreed Armed Miner, those photographs were beautifully shot! Well done Conor!

Still, like a lot of the left's report on the visit, any mention of human rights abuses committed by our state was notably ommitted. I don't think this was deliberate on the left's part, but it was a fault none the less. It's interesting to note though that the only group to highlight the crimes of the Irish state were my old chums from the sparts!

by VenusInFurs - UCD Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:41 cogstar at hotmail dot com

I'm providing a link to a Maoist website which documents a short history of Tibet. It's the best of a bad lot, the others being reactionary bullshit about how truly fantastic his 'holiness' the Dalai Lama is. Though this website stinks of stalinism, the website is good because it sources western journalists and ordinary Tibetans who witnessed the horrors of feudal Tibet.

by KKK took my Baby Away! Wed Mar 03, 2004 19:28

VenusInFurs, why are you apologising for using 'trot rhetoric'? Do you advocate this line? Or are you quoting from a Spart newspaper?
Also, you say China cannot be 'free' unless the Chinese workers overthow the 'bureaucrats'? How is this to be achieved?

by VenusInFurs - UCD Wed Mar 03, 2004 20:19 cogstar at hotmail dot com

Since i was writing a commentary based on my perspective of what is happening in Tibet, and not propaganda, i didn't want to resort to the usual tired buzz words that people resort to when finding difficulty articulating their opinions. If i had come out and said 'DEFEND THE CHINESE DEFORMED WORKERS STATE AGAINST IMPERIALIST ATTACK', and particularly given the nature of Indymedia, I would have been immediately accused of being a spart. Incidentally however, though not quoting from workers hammer or workers vanguard, i was once a member of their organisation. And yes, i do defend that trotskyist line as is evident from my posts.

Also, i do believe there are two options for the Chinese working class; capitalist restoration or political revolution. The former has happened in what was the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, though there were oppurtunities for a poltical revolution in these countries eg Hungary 1956. After years of stalinist domination in these countries, workers' concuiosness became eroded and thus the resistance to capitalist restoration was tired and weary.

In China, the protesters in Tianemann Square 1989 were motivated by not only the pressing need for political reforms, but primarily because of the 'market reforms' being initiated by the bureaucrats which led to further polarisation and a drop in living standards for most people in China, including Tibetans. There was a very strong potential here for political revolution.

Today, China stands on the brink of capitalist restoration as the bureaucrats continue more and more to open up China's economy to foreign investors and speculators. All over China, industries are being shut down because they are no longer economicably 'viable'. But workers in China have been resisting these moves, and in recent years there have been large-scale and widespread labour struggles. Sooner or later, explosive social tensions will come to the fore and the choice will be sharply posed; political revolution which will install workers democracy and open the road to socialism or capitalist restoration.

by VenusInFurs - UCD Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:07 cogstar at hotmail dot com

Hey y'all!

This is a link to the grantite website which is a trotskyist analysis of the the events in Tiananmen Square in '89. It also stresses from a revolutionary viewpoint why it is necessary for workers to overthrow the stalinist bureaucracy. Smell ye later!

by KKK took my Baby Away! Fri Mar 05, 2004 00:21

Sorry, but i don;t think that the situation in China is a clearcut as that. You seem detached from what is going on there today.
You make a point that 'workers consciousness' was eroded in the former SU, is this not happening in China today by similar 'bureaucrats'?
Tien'amen itself has forced the Chinese workers to seek more moderate methods and in fact the chinese communists have been quite successful in localising any strife of late, assisted by the All China Federation of Trade Unions among others...
You seem to pose the future for China as an either or situation, are you also proposing that China should revert to a Maoist position of economic autarchy?
I honestly don't think that this prospect would be welcomed with any degree in China today.

Tibet is doing alright out of the reforms, it gets preferential relief of tarriffs and in fact large reserves of copper have been discovered there as a result. Carlsberg have invested heavily in Lhasa brewery employing 250.

I do not see how such a vague concept as 'workers democracy' will appeal in China today, its something that has been heard many times before, are the Sparts going now to preach to the unconverted???