Italy-Berlusconi

by Two pack Fri Mar 19, 2004 17:31

"(Of course here there is the history mass parties, so you can be a communist without having to be born in a coal mine or do the leftie equvilent of the roasary. And even the anarchists don't break your balls to much on how many marches you've been to this week or what trotsky said to his grandmother about Lenins cousin's girlfriend's role in the spanish civil war. and it's the same on the right)"

Come back to Ireland hs, you obviously forget too much. Anarchists don't break your balls here. Come to the next Dublin City general anti-bin tax meeting and see who will be in the van for ball breaking. It certainly won't be the anarchists. And all the answers to the minutia of Lenins existence, once again look closer to home - ask the puppies.

by hs - sp Fri Mar 19, 2004 17:03

Two marches, one anti terror and one anti war, have been organised. The anti terror one yesterday in rome was organised by the right and therefore implicitly pro war, ie if you are anti terror you must support "the war on terror" and therefore the war in iraq. Funny how politics says things without words.
Looked like less than a thousand on TV.
Tomorrow there is an Anti war march in rome, also anti terrorism but then there is a debate on whether what happens in Iraq is terrorism or resistance (in my opinion there is both).
To give you an idea of how big this is, even MTV is having a "peace weekend".
Don't know how many will turn up but it'll be more than a thousand. Belusconi on his part claims Italy had nothing to do with the war but sent peacekeepers in after the war ended. (no one seems to believe him)

As far as I can see to answer your point is there are two italys, it's a very polarised place.
Everything does seem to be left or right. For example here in Sicily there is always two lists one left and one right. And although someone may be a sicilian nationalist a single issue campaigner (now a consumer party is starting) or anything else they always go on one or the other list.

(Of course here there is the history mass parties, so you can be a communist without having to be born in a coal mine or do the leftie equvilent of the roasary. And even the anarchists don't break your balls to much on how many marches you've been to this week or what trotsky said to his grandmother about Lenins cousin's girlfriend's role in the spanish civil war. and it's the same on the right)

This probably explains the contradiction of sicilians voting for Bossi's coalition. Which would be the equivelent of the people of Cork voting for Ian Paisley. And Forza Italia won all 61 sicilian seats in the last election openly saying they would share coalition power with Bossi.

Of course on the other hand the vast majority just get on with their lives.

by iosaf Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:16

were just like other civilised peoples.
Tired of being associated with nasty ideology from the past, and tired of being at the thin end of prosperity and peace.
I reckon on a hunch that they are probably just about half left and half right. But isn't that the thing with 21st century politics? We have at long last developed a means of expressing our mutual difference and similarity.

Eyes on Kosovo please. just next door to Italy.
We must put our eyes there, as we do not trust Burlosconi's eyes anymore do we now?

by Kiara Fri Feb 20, 2004 19:30

Well, what you wrote is right, but the problem in this nation, is that Berlusconi and his coalition won't leave the throne until the left will raise again as a strong coalition able to defeat them. Unfortunately it seems just a mirage... In the meantime, Alessandra Mussolini, niece of Benito, after his breaking up with Fini's Alleanza Nazionale, builts up a new extreme-right party with members of Forza Nuova and other of the most Extreme Right Parties; Anarco-terrorism and anarcoterrorism has become one of the most used words in the media. Thay've become the scapegoats; "Communist" and "Communism" are a taboo words (it recalls a bit of mackartism...dear Silvio...).

This is what is really happening in sunny Italy. Dark ages for Left supporters.

Well, I'm Italian, I'm a student, and I'm "di sinistra". (of the Left)

Ciao

Kiara

by hs - sp Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:46

Modern Italian nationalism comes from the fascist period rather than the earlier unification nationalists, Ie national alliance, forza nouva etc. Therefore the italian nationalists are right wing.

by hs - sp Wed Feb 18, 2004 17:42

Italy I'll be the first to admit wasn't the greatest of impearialist nations or empires (not counting the romans that is). But they took quite a bit of territory in North Africa and long before Il Duce came about.
As for being colinised, parts were taken over by the austrians but even today there is german speakers in South Tyroll and there was border troubles between Italy and whats now croatia but you could hardly describe Italy as colinised. Remebering Italy itself as a nation isn't that old. Apart from the US, British occupation and the short nazi one. it's been pretty much independent since unification. Rmember as well the definition of colinisation is moving colonies into a teritory such as Italy tried in North Africa, that is transplanting people there. Unless you're talking about the greeks I don't think the italians have had to deal with that much!

by kwtrio Sat Feb 14, 2004 21:11

I was under the impressio you knew your history. for about 60 years Italy was to a lesser extent a colonial power (If you were to measure the entire area under effective Italian colonial rule fo more than a decade, it would amount to some coastal strips of Libya and very few people) . However between the fall of the Roman Empire and the late 19th Century, various parts of Italy have been colonised by the Spanish, Austrians, Germans, French, Greeks and Turks.

Italy's historical experience is that of colonisation, not being a colonising force.

by hs - sp Sat Feb 14, 2004 17:49

ipsi you've pretty much covered evrything their so I'll just throw in a little on my experiences of nationalism in Italy. Italian nationalism has been and is very different to the nationalism in irish history. In that it's generally right wing often extremely. We have a number of types of nationalism, first Italian nationalism, this has existed in many forms the origanal being the unification of Italy, much like the general forms of nation building at the time. Then of course there was the nationalism of Il Duce who had dreams of empire. And then we have the sort of nationalism of the communists which was really just hold the country together after WW2 and two occupations. Generally Italian nationalism calls for a strong central state, although the left traditionally called for more decentralisation (especially when they controlled regions)

In modern times the main nationalist party is the National Alliance which is the desendent of the fascist MSI. They use the Italian flag etc and talk about law and order etc. The economist magazine sees them as the future (like the PP in spain) Recently they have tried to put on a more liberal front, (Finis visit to Israel and his proposal for votes for legal immigrants). Then of course we have the nationalist populism from the man on a mission from the holy spirit. After the collapse of the christian democrats all the criminals and corrupt ones were left partyless so the most criminal and corrupt led the way and created Forza Italia. This in a direct italian to irish english translation is like calling a political party Ole Ole Ole.

In regional politics, The biggest regional and populist party is the most interesting for anyone interested in politics. The Lega Nord, they have actually invented a country "Padania" in the last decade which in modern times is quite something. They picked Green as their "national" colour incidently. Bossi their leader is probably the best of the populists with comments such as "I wipe my arse with the Italian flag" to his name.
But as with all populist partys they offer oppisition in name only and are still in government. And the contradistion of Fini and Bossi in power together really revels what both their politics are about whatever they say.

Sicilian nationalism is very weak as it was always a stronghold of Italian nationalism, being the poor part of the country it's natural enough. And anyway Sicily's been invaded by Greeks, Romans, Arabs, French, English and Americans in it's day so what the hell. So the domination of Sicily is seen in a much more historical way, they woulnd't bother with "800 years" or any of that stuff.
The modern nationalist party Patto Sicilia is on the right wing lists in the elections and apart from offering cheap petrol after independence have little to offer. And get very little votes.

For sardinia i'm afraid i know nothing about it.

In my own opinion the break up of Italy would be a disaster the south being much more underdeveloped, and Italy as a nation survived WW2 with it's invasion from the brits, americans and nazis so after that Bossi isn't too much of a threat. The idea of sicily or sardinia breaking away because of launguage differences isn't really through as every region in Italy has a number of strong dialects, there is no one sicilian for example, the is cantanese and palermitano and lots others.

Either way in my experince here nationalism does seem to be considered very much something of the right. Especially when you come to the arguments about immigrants etc
And the scariest one's of all of course are the neo fascists. Its different as Italy was traditionally a coloniser rather than colinised.
Generally you get a very different view of nationalism here. And all the regional nationalists take part on right wing lists and in right wing governments.

by typing away Fri Feb 13, 2004 17:17

And the Sardinian "seperatist/anarchist" story seems to be bubbling away.

Luca Farris has been remanded in custody at his first court appearance this week.
Last night other presumed anarchists were arrested in night time swoops.
Also last night in the northern province of Nouro a bomb (dynamite) was detonated.
http://www.sardegnaoggi.it/cronaca.php

by ipsi - (sorry HS I'm on the square today) Fri Feb 13, 2004 16:30

The Italian prime minister on Tuesday became the first Western head of state to meet with Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi since Libya announced plans to abandon all its weapons of mass destruction programs in December. The Italian leader says he will deliver a plan from Libya to Washington on how to improve relations.
At the same time (dot de dots)
"as part of Libya's increased efforts to improve relations with the West, Libyan foreign minister Abdel Rahman Shalgham made a landmark visit to London, where he met with the British foreign secretary, Jack Straw. British officials said Mr. Shalgham's visit was the first by a high-ranking Libyan leader in over 20 years.
During that visit, Mr. Shalgham handed the British secretary a letter from Mr. Gadhafi, inviting British Prime Minister Tony Blair to have talks. Mr. Blair agreed.
Speaking to reporters, Mr. Shalgham reaffirmed Libya's new position on disarmament. He said Libya bans weapons of mass destruction and is calling on the rest of the world to get rid of them".
***********************
Italians marked the anniversary of the Vatican State whose establishment was signed by Mussolini this week in 1929.
And so the Pope met with the Palestinian Government.

by - Fri Feb 13, 2004 16:21

The bill {"concerns Adriano Sofri, a radical activist who was jailed for 22 years in 1990 for ordering the murder of Luigi Calabresi, a Milan policeman, in 1972.
Mr Sofri's case is a cause célèbre in Italy because many people, especially on the left, believe him innocent.
Moreover, they suspect Mr Calabresi was responsible for the death in 1969 of an anarchist who fell from the window of the policeman's office.
The National Alliance opposes clemency for Mr Sofri unless he asks for a pardon, something he has refused to do on the grounds it implies prior guilt."}

I doubt Bertie will be talking about that.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1075982505187&p=1012571727166

by ipsiphi Fri Feb 13, 2004 15:06

I usually leave comment on Italy to HS, who normally lives over there, and is very reliable.
However I thought to leave everyone some intermediate Italian reading lessons:-

On the 3rd of Feb. 2004, a strange trio of politicians joined for a photo-op, Ciampi (President of the Italian Republic), Prodi (the EU commission man) and Berlusconi (Prime Minister of Italy). It's strange, because their animosity towards each other is well known. And the theme was an address by Ciampi on the "unity of Italy".
http://notizie.tiscali.it/politica/articoli/2004/febbraio/03/ciampi_repubblica.html
He chose to make the speech in Sardegna, which is known to most as "Sardinia".
That same week, indeed ___that same day___, a young man was arrested.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63244&condense_comments=false#comment60788
He was arrested in Sardinia, charged with sending a letter bomb (which didn't explode) to Roman Prodi.
The previous month of January and the end of December had seen reaction from a wide variety of "anarchsyndicalist" groups in Italy and here to the European wide mainstream media assumption that an "anarchist" had been responsible.
c/f
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62831

Now, Luca Farris is still being held on those charges, and contrary to the initial "media fuss", it does not appear that "EU officials" throughout Europe are being targetted by violent anarchist groupings. And interestingly it also appears that the group of which he was a "prominent member" did not in fact _exist_ either outside his explosive imagination or beyond that of the mainstream press. The follow-up story, the "last" to be printed in Italy on this "affiar" made careful mention of the fact that there was no ideological material seized by the Police in Italy.
http://www.napoli.vivacity.it/articoli/dettaglio/0,3573,15|1|658899,00.html

So, Italy is "indivisible" and "unitary".
Who else thinks that?
Well, Ciampi and Prodi, and most of their voters maintain that Italy ought be united.
But amongst those who oppose the continuing unity of the Republic are included:-
The right wing nationalist of Paduva.
(with whom Berlusconi plotted in 1995 to seperate the northern more prosperous states from the poorer and therefore in social welfare terms "more expensive" south).
and the nationalists and seperatists of Sardinia.
(with whom the Irish RSF have had established contact)
C/f:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61585


Dot the Dots, and you don't find the usual conspiracy theory masons of Italy, but rather something just as sinister.
and that's my twopence halpenny worth.

Over to you HS!
I always enjoy your posts.

by mary h Thu Feb 12, 2004 16:56

he told me this morning that you're only a gibbering eejit. sure, himself and mick mc are the best of friends and its been a great help for our progressive politics over the last few years.

narffff

by bertie Thu Feb 12, 2004 16:47

On how to deal with the Press, Privatisation and Protesters. He's a lovely man - he supported the war too.

by hs - sp Thu Feb 12, 2004 16:41

Hardly the bastion of revolutionary communism but nevertheless even the italy's magistrates are going on a two day strike aginst the Berlusconi government. It illustrates just how badly things have gotten for Silvio.