Anarchist Social Evening/ Bad Thoughts Discussion

by Leon Trotsky Thu Jan 29, 2004 19:55

That this drinking society is really a front for the anarchist priesthood. The black pope will be doling out blessings and everybody will be forced to drink buckfast in a sick anarcho-religion ritual. Steer clear of these pseudo-religious sickos!

And another thing, any real revolutionary should be out selling papers and signing up the proletarian masses rather than drinking. Petit-bourgeios, pseudo-intellectual, splitters, ultra-leftist, counter-revolutionaries the lot of you!

by Durutti Thu Jan 29, 2004 23:02

Unless there's a guarantee of some acrimony I wont be there.

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:03

Why not go to the Des Derwin fundraiser first and then anarchise till late:

Des Derwin campaign Fundraiser
SIPTU Vice President Election

Vote Derwin for a fighting, democratic Union.

Your cents against Goliath.

PUB QUIZ

Thursday, February 5th, 8.00 p.m.
Teachers Club, Parnell Square, Dublin.

€20 per table

"The bosses are not our partners"

by David Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:40

hmm, do you actually know what anarchism is?

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:43

do you know the difference between an election for a trade union position and a dail/council election?

by Leon Fri Jan 30, 2004 13:52

Pat C of course unions are important, but SIPTU is irredeemably corrupted.

You might as well talk about Fianna Fail returning to its revolutionary roots.

Anyway Anarchists bang on about the workplace far too much, they/we seem to believe humans are primarily economic as do the PDs.

Most Dublin Anarchists have incredibly cushy numbers anyway.

by as4 Fri Jan 30, 2004 13:54

Leon, didn't your name sake say that revolutionaries should work in all unions even the most reactionary ones? SIPTU is where the workers are, when workers move into struggle they will turn to their unions first, even if the current leadership are rotten. It is the duty of revolutionaries to be active in the unions and explain the role of the bureacracy. To abandon the unions and not contest union elections is ultra left stupidity

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 13:59

what do you base your description of siptus corruption on? it is a 200,000 member union. seting up a new fighting union to rival it is not very likely. if you really believe this is possible then why havent you pushed the idea before? please supply your plans for the supplantation of siptu.

your description of anarchists having cushy numbers makes no sense. are you suggesting that the only proper place for revolutionaries is in the worst paid most exploited jobs where they will have to work 60 hr weeks and have no job security?

by David Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:13

The idea being that people are capable of organising themselves not ~being organised~ by union leaders.

Unions are now a tool of the state, bargaining away the rights of workers in so called "partnership agreements"
Union Leaders earn incomes orders of magnitude higher than the wages of their members, Union leaders such as Charley Lennon of the ASTI betray their members by demanding large amounts of money to leave the Union when they are exposed as incompetent or corrupt or otherwise lose the confidence of their membership.

Trade Unions can be important elements of a revolution or even a movement towards greater freedom for workers but not in their current structures. You cant smash the state by mirroring their own objectionable structures. Large national Unions are in my opinion Undesirable because real direct democracy cant function efficiantly at such a scale. Individual workplaces should organise themselves in a federation with other workplaces.

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:27

so you dont seem to be talking for them.

"Unions are now a tool of the state, bargaining away the rights of workers in so called "partnership agreements""

these unions can be reclaimed by rank & file action. they are not part of the state, unions are independent. des has been such an activist and has a record of fighting the union burocracy for the lst 30 yrs.

i admit that some such as the pseu are beyond redemption. the pseu even has a cop as a official.

"Union Leaders earn incomes orders of magnitude higher than the wages of their members,"

agreed, but des has made it clear that he will only accept the average industrial wage.

"Union leaders such as Charley Lennon of the ASTI betray their members by demanding large amounts of money to leave the Union when they are exposed as incompetent or corrupt or otherwise lose the confidence of their membership."

you wont find des supporting tis. but given how long lennons contract had to run he only got a fraction of what he might have.

in my opinion trade unions are defence organisations of the working class. while they have a political and social role i do not agree it is their function to play a revolutionary role.

the sort of unions you are talking about setting would be a replacement for the existing ones based i suspect on your anarcho-synicalist politics. what would yopu do about the 99.9% of ordinary workers who dont agree with your politics, deny them membership?

by Leon Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:28

so what?

why not join FF if numbers are what matter.

Siptu's role is to contain dissent and ensure smooth running of the workplace.

Corrupt may be the wrong word and certainly I am not saying that Des Derwin is 'corrupt'.

Anyway unions don't interest me, I personally welcome the hypercapitalist phenomenon because it seems to me that as capitalism becomes more extreme it becomes more likely to fail and the opportunity will emerge to build a decent world.

Vote for him if you like, but don't be a checkist [1]because people want to talk shite over a few jars and meet each other instead of raising money for the lesser of two evils.

Enjoy the pub quiz, vote for who you like, and come along later.

[1] I'm being deliberately extreme in my language, of course you're not a checkist.

by Des Derwin Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:29 dderwin at gofree dot indigo dot ie

Re. David's contribution above. One of the organiser's of Thursday's event is the WSM who support my candidacy.

I presume this double booking is just another cock-up on the left and is neither malicious nor an indication that the WSM is abandoning its orientation to the organised working class.

The Indymedia events signboard is meant, inter alia, to help avoid such clashes.

by as4 Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:32

Leon you ultra left, it is not numbers that are key. It is the fact that workers will turn to their unions despite the leadership when engaging in struggle.

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:32

"why not join FF if numbers are what matter."

because we are talking about unions, defence organisations of the working class. to throw in ff is a complete red herring. the bigger the union the better, as long as its under democratic control.

"Siptu's role is to contain dissent and ensure smooth running of the workplace."

no, thats the role of the siptu burocracy. its the job of leftwing activists to mobilise the membership to win back control.

by Andrew Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:36

David there is really no single anarchist position on the unions here (or elsewhere). Some like the WSM favour reforming the existing unions and individual members helped Des get branch nominations. Other anarchists prefer to wish that some other form of union might come into existance.

SIPTU (and I'm a member) is a bureaucratic mess but at least in theory the officials are accountable to the membership and are only allowed to follow policy laid down by conference. In practise they have managed to make sure that conference seldom lays down a clear enough mandate that they can clearly be seen to break or obey. Often this is the fault of the left for putting in motions that are too vague. But more definite motions (eg committing them to organising a demonstration by a particular date) are usually defeated on the grounds that this is 'tying their hands' too much and 'flexability' is needed.

by Andrew Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:41

Yeah the clash between the two is a cock up on our part as if we'd have noticed it in advance I'm sure we'd have asked to get one or the other moved to a different day. I hadn't noticed until Pat pointed it out despite the fact I'd intended to go to both!

by Leon Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:42

Pat first of all if you think SIPTU can be re radicalised knock yourself out. I don't agree but certainly I would support you, I might even go along to the pub quiz if asked.

However "workers look to their union leaders" etc. no they don't, and why the fuck should they.

There's 5 million people in this country, 200,000 are in Siptu and most of the ones in Siptu are not left wing.

I think that it is about as likely to reradicalise Siptu as to reradicalise FF (maybe that's mike turley's plan).

We need a new paradigm, we need to move beyond the workplace if we are ever going to hang Gavin O'Reilly.

The unions have 'delivered' for the Irish working class. It's just that they've done a hell of a lot more for the bosses.

by David Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:44

I accept that anarchists do not hold united postions on all issues nor are they expected to.
It was a mistake by me to be so general in the statements i made and not clear enough that these are only personal opinions held by me but based on my interpretations of what anarchism stands for.

by Chekov - WSM Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:45

Yep, it was an inadvertent mix-up, sorry about that. This social evening was planned a long time back - before we knew about the pub quiz. I believe some WSMers and others will be going along to the pub quiz first and to the anarcho-drinking later. In any case, this probably isn't going to detract much from the pub quiz as many of the Dublin anarchists are young and have little or no experience of trade unions and pub quizes probably aren't their thing anyway (there's a generational gap there!).

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:47

read my replies to david and you will see that i acknowledge that the vast majority of siptu members are not left wing. TUs are defence organisations of the working class, imho it is not their function to forment revolution. thats a job for political organisations.

by as4 Fri Jan 30, 2004 14:48

LEON: "However "workers look to their union leaders" etc. no they don't, and why the fuck should they.""

They may or may not look to their union leaders but workers definitly do look toward their union when engaging in a fight against the boss.

LEON "There's 5 million people in this country, 200,000 are in Siptu and most of the ones in Siptu are not left wing."

Only 200,000 maybe in SIPTU but they are all workers, society can't function without the working class. This is why they are the only class that can deliver revolution. They may not be all revolutionaries now but conditions do and will change. It is the role of revolutionaries to intervene into the unions antry to raise revolutionary ideas among these workers. Not write them all off as 'reformists' and 'corrupt'

LEON: "I think that it is about as likely to reradicalise Siptu as to reradicalise FF (maybe that's mike turley's plan)."

There is a clear difference between FF and SIPTU. SIPTU is an organisation that was set up by workers to defend theri interests. SIPTU is a workers organisation, FF is a capitalist party.

by David Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:01

A revolution organised in the same way as the system it opposes is doomed to failour before it starts.
Unions it seems are guilty of looking too much at the short term. SIPTU are battling the government over privatising the Bus services in dublin. this is not because privatising buses is such an obviously terrible idea, it is only because the current workers are at risk of losing their jobs. SIPTU will allow the government privatise our public services if they make assurances about the security of the current workers jobs. This is incredibly short sighted and it is stupidly assuming that the government will actually honour those committments (fat chance)

Unions do not represent their workers as they currently stand. SIPTU members were prevented by SIPTU officials from hearing a Sinaltainal activist from speaking about the condtitions of fellow workers in Columbia. Those same SIPTU officials are actively engaged in protecting the reputation of the Coca-Cola Corporation against the interests of Human beings and fellow workers .

Without doubting the integrity and dedication of Des Derwin as a person and an activist, I personally do not believe that a successful election campaign on his part would have any real effect in reversing the downward spiral

by Leon Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:03

Does that mean 5 hours of Electro?

by Andrew Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:06

No because DJ's will be subject to mandate and immediate recall (now thats an idea!)

by watcher Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:10

Well I was at a recent social event where an anarchist DJ consistantly refused to play my request of JT and Christina. Hardly democracyYou see anarchists go on about how democratic they are but whenever they have a bit of power it all goes out the window. Look at my example of anarchists refusing legitimate requests as well as what happened in Sapin during the civil war.

by Andrew Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:30

I was at a leninist party a while back and when someone asked for something other then Ska to be played they were denounced as a counter - revolutionary, taken out the back and shot. Then their entire family was deported to Rockall! Look at this and the banning of Soviets in Russia in 1918! [Traditional Friday afternoon argument follows]

by Jt Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:35

There's nothing counter revolutionary about Ska, JT, Christina, Black Eyed Peas, Kylie, 50 cent, Michael Jackson or the Darkness. Westlife and Electro/Anarchist music is counter revolutionary, it was played by the white army general that lead the backard counter revolutionary sailors in Krondstadt! (according to evidence recently uncovered in the Russian archives)

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:38

tell you story about how many moons ago you were djing at a swp social and how....

by pat c Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:41

their music urged people to "go west" and extolled life "in the navy". they were obviously also a front for the christian coalition, dont forget how they praised the "ymca".

by Jt Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:44

Never said the Village People were progressives. Electro music, westlife and Eminem are reactionaries the true revolutionaries are Ska music, JT, Christina, Black Eyed Peas, Kylie, 50 cent, Michael Jackson or the Darkness

by Des Derwin Fri Jan 30, 2004 15:53

Ah! Pat, behave! And don't tempt me.

(You've some memory!)

by ?? Fri Jan 30, 2004 16:00

Ah come on Des, they deserve an embarrising story from the past after the way they treated you re SIPTU elections

by Libertarian Marxist Fri Jan 30, 2004 18:01

Is the anarcho evening open to non-anarcho's?

by Badman Fri Jan 30, 2004 18:06

Even if you just want to check out the anarchists and find out what wierd breed of a beast they be.

Libertarian Marxists are just anarchists who have become lost in Marx's beard at some stage and can't find their way out.

by hs - sp Sat Jan 31, 2004 18:08

Anarchist drinking club!! Wonderful wonderful, we should have a leninist vodka society too. Workers, occupy the brewries!

by soberboy Tue Feb 03, 2004 15:06

One of the first thing the red army did when they stormed the winter palace was to smash the vodka vaults.

Drink is the curse of the working class.

To quote Connolly, "A drunken socialist is as rare as a white blackbird"

by Major Woody Tue Feb 03, 2004 15:19

They snuck into the cellars in small groups, got captured but when the guards became more and more outnumbered they surrendered. Oh and the Aurora was firing blanks. You've been watching too much Esinstein.

More amusingly here is what one historian (Orlando Figes, Cambridge University) claims actually happened to the booze
" It was essential to Soviet propaganda that the people who took power in the storming of the Winter Palace were disciplined soldiers. But, in fact, what took place immediately after the storming of the Winter Palace cast a large shadow of doubt over that. Because when they took the Winter Palace, they found in its basement the largest wine cellar ever known to history. There was the supply of the Tsar's favorite wine, a Chateau de Calme of 1847, the grandest of the grand vintners. And, the leading mob that had taken the Winter Palace immediately began ransacking these cellars.

The Bolsheviks didn't know how to control the situation. They tried to barricade the cellars with a wall, but the mob simply knocked it down. They tried to pipe the wine out of the cellar basement and into the Neva, but they found crowds assembling around the drains drinking the booze out of the drain pipes. They thought of exploding the wine cellar, but thought it would damage the palace. And, indeed, even thought of exporting it to Sweden. But, all their plans came to not, and in fact, the drinking from the cellar, and the looting that accompanied it, continued for several weeks. At the beginning of December, the Bolsheviks had to impose martial law on Petrograd because of the chaos. It wasn't until the new year, that Petrograd, perhaps with the biggest hangover in history, finally woke up and got back to some order."

by redandblackjack Fri Feb 06, 2004 18:10

i know i had a good time but what about everyone else? do it again next month?

by David Fri Feb 06, 2004 18:17

bit of a laugh, cool people, interesting discussion..