Airfield City Farm in Dundrum in Danger

by john mc dermott - Remove Fianna Fail Party Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:33 jmcd33 at eircom dot net ashtown dublin 15

This Finnegan guy that you speak of,along with the former amusement arcade owner ,and shadowy land speculator,Jim Kennedy(now conveniently domiciled in The Isle of Man)seems to have his grubby finger in every lucrative rezoning deal that happens inside The Pale.Their names crop up repeatedly in the various Tribunal antics in Dublin Castle,and It seems that the C.A.B.would like to know more also.You may remember the hilarious episode last year when Kennedy”s ‘front man’ an English based solicitor made a very brief appearance before Dun Laoire Councillors,when their very lucrative Carrickmines rezoning deal appeared to be in some jeapordy. He was however very quickly back on a plane to John Bulls country before the Criminal Asset Boys got wind he was in town! Nice one!I understand a complaint has been lodged with the English law society because he will not re-present himself for a very expensive(for taxpayers )interview before the Tribunal legal eagles.!We can only wish continued success for these two very rich boyo’s who are still pulling some nice strokes with our elected councilors in Dun Laoire and elsewhere,..busy little beavers that they are.” May they also be in heaven an hour before the Devil knows they have left town for good”(and may an exceptionally gifted tailor have sown some large pockets in their funeral habits!) If not,as they say in Cavan-“A hard gatherin gets a wild scatterin!’It astounds me that some of these people can still garner from afar-offshore trust companies etc-the plunder of rezoning profits,from our little long suffering Island.If we only had a mean- but benign- dictator(I don’t mean Bertie)ruling this country .I wonder would he just toss his hands in the air,despairingly,…send out the army to round up every cute hoor ‘councillor’from every county council in the land..line them all up against a wall…and start over again!Oh if wishes were dreams.Would it change anything?

by Cian Tue Jan 13, 2004 14:02

I live in Dundrum and was just wondering if anyone knows of any plans to have a meeting about Airfield so that we can get more people involved in the campaign?

There are a couple of heads that I know in Dundrum that would probably get involved as well.

by dun Tue Jan 13, 2004 18:08

Is an email submission the same as a written submission. i.e. do you have to write a letter also.

apologies for the dumb question

by Local Tue Jan 13, 2004 20:21 Uppr Kilmacud Rd

I'd be in favour of building roads and apartments on Airfield. I live in the area and I want to solve the terrible traffic problem I would also like to get decent affordable housing. I say flatten Airfield if needs be. We should put people first and fields second.

by john mc dermott - Remove Fianna Fail Party Tue Jan 13, 2004 21:24 jmcd33 at eircom dot net ashtown dublin 15

Yeah-we should put Finnegan and Kennedy and every other predator first..everyone else last !There's not much affordable housing in any part of Dublin now.-north-south east or west.. dundrum included.The Fianna Fail/builders/land speculators alliance have seen to that!

by dun Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:10

Do you think bringing more cars into the area will reduce the traffic problem???? somebody needs their thinking cap. You could solve the traffic problem by reducing the dependance on the car through poor, greed driven (non)planning of urban areas. Do you think that there will be affordable housing or will it be another marginalising subset of car bound commuter/workers who have no local amenities for their children or for themselves - the standard of small grass patches within most apartment developments isnt conducive to a healthy settlement. the preservation of local heritage and amenities is putting people first now and in the future.

by Local Dundrum resident Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:24 Upper Kilmacud Road

By building a road you are not bringing more cars in, you are getting them out of the area.

I actually live on the Uppr Kilmacud Road near Dundrum. I have to suffer the awful traffic congestion in the area, you do not. You do not have to wait 10-15 mins waiting to get out onto the road every morning. You have no right to dictate to me about the environment when you probably live in a nice traffic free area. If a road through Arifield alleviates the traffic on the Uppr Kilmacud Rd then it should be built, who cares about a few trees and a bit of grass, that green patch hardly constitutes an area of outstanding beuty or a large percentage of Ireland's trees.

by Cian Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:56

An access road to land that hasn't been developed yet will not ease trafic congestion but will simply add to it by increasing the supply of cars going onto the main roads when the land is developed.

I agree with Dundrum resident that we need afordable housing - but the only way to provide this is to take on the profiteering property developers - not by granting their every wish.

Dundrum is a heavily built up area and there is hardly any green space left. By building over the little remaining green areas, we will not solve the housing crisis or even alleviate it in any way. But what we will do is take away the little bit of space that is left, forever. Dundrum is highly developed and as the traffic congestion proves, the infrastructure just can't take more cars.

by letter writer Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:06

an email is enough - but a letter also Im sure will not go unnoticed

by Concerned resident Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:10

Did you see the price of the Rockvale appartments down at the Luas station on the Sandyford Road?

Are they affordable?

Do you think Gannon and Finnegan are interested in building affordable houses for people?

I'd prefer to have a green space and a farm than some overpriced appartment that some stranger owns

by Green Party Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:11

15.12.03

Development of Airfield should not be at the expense of selling off more lands

The Green Party said today that the development of Airfield estate in Dundrum should not be at the expense of selling off more lands.

Green Party Dundrum representative, Ciarán Fallon, said today "The Airfield Trust is a civic treasure for all Dubliners and for the people of Dundrum and Kilmacud in particular. The development of the estate has been one of the most positive developments in the area in recent years. We are very glad to see that the Trust is now looking to build on that success and improve the educational and recreational resources that it provides to the community."

Mr Fallon said that "the overall thinking behind the proposed
development is very positive but the Green Party has a serious reservation about the proposal to sell-off part of the lands to finance the plan". "Selling the field between the house and the new Wickham Bypass Road would certainly raise a lot of money. However the proposal will also destroy what people feel is so magical about Airfield, namely that it remains a rural oasis in the midst of our urban sprawl."

Green Party TD for Dublin South, Eamon Ryan , reiterating the Party's concerns, said that many locals already regretted that the loss of the lands to the south of the estate, which is now densely built on with new apartment blocks. "If the lands to the west of the House are also sold, then the estate will be overlooked by six and seven-story apartments on two sides. By holding onto this land, the proposed new car park could be put closer to the bypass and the area around the house could be kept green for recreational uses."


"The Green Party have been informed that the trust has still to get detailed costings for their plan and we hope the plan can still be revised to make the sale of the land unnecessary. If the redevelopment cannot be progressed in a manner which allows existing funding to cover costs, then the Green Party believe the trust should look to the State for assistance in the matter."


"The Greens believe that a strong case can be made to the Ministers of Education, Environment and Arts, Sport and Tourism to support this fantastic resource in the middle of our city. The Trust is right to try and develop the estate but we would urge them to make sure that such a development does not involve the selling off any more land." concluded Deputy Ryan.

by Dubliner Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:15

This is not just something for Dundrum people. People anywhere can use this place and anyone can object to the council about parts of it being sold off.

Lets get busy, its the only city farm in Dublin.

Tell the council you object and tell Airfield that they cant sell off what belongs to the community.

Its just more land dissapearing under concrete and into private hands. Its the banks and builders that benefit and we all loose.

Tell them what the community wants

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 01 2984301

Web: www.airfield.ie

by DUN LAOGHAIRE RATHDOWN COUNTY COUNCIL Thu Jan 15, 2004 03:18

PLANNING & DEVELOPMENT ACT 2000
 
DRAFT COUNTY DEVELOPMENT PLAN 2004 – 2010
NOTICE UNDER SECTION 12(7)
PROPOSED AMENDMENTS THAT CONSTITUTE A MATERIAL ALTERATION TO THE DRAFT PLAN
 
 
Notice is hereby given that the Members of the Council, having considered the Draft County Development Plan and the Manager’s report thereon in accordance with Section 12 of the Planning & Development Act 2000, have recommended that the Draft Plan be amended.
 
A copy of the proposed amendments that constitute a material alteration to the Draft Plan may be inspected at the locations listed below during the period from Thursday 18th  December 2003 to Tuesday 20th January 2004.
 
Written submissions or observations with respect to the proposed amendments to the draft plan may be made to the Planning Authority within the period of display up to 5.00 p.m. on Tuesday 20th January 2004.  All submissions and observations should be marked for the attention of the Director of Services, Economic Development and Planning Department, County Hall, Marine Road, Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin.  Submissions or observations may also be made by e-mail to [email protected].  The name of the person and/or body making the submission or observation must be stated.  All written submissions or observations received within the above-mentioned time period will be taken into consideration before the making of any amendment.
 
A copy of the proposed amendments to the Draft Development Plan may be inspected at the following locations:
 
Council Offices
County Hall
Marine Road
Dun Laoghaire

Council Offices
Dundrum Office Park
Dundrum


 (Public Opening Hours)
from Monday to Friday (excluding Bank Holidays) from Thursday 18th December 2003 to Tuesday 20th January 2004 (inclusive).  It may also be inspected at all Branches of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Public Libraries.  The proposed material amendments to the Written Statement may also be viewed on the Council website here. 
 
The Council Offices will be closed from 12.00 noon on Wednesday 24th December 2003 and will re-open on Friday 2nd January 2004.
 
Michael Gough
Director of Services
Economic Development & Planning Department                                               
 
18th December, 2003   

by Cllr Barry Saul - DLRCC Thu Jan 15, 2004 15:43 bsaul at cllr dot dlrcoco dot ie

I think that the council and some councillors under estimate the growing local discontent regarding developments at Airfield.

The Councillors of DLRCC will again have to vote on Airfield so the best type of public campaign is to lobby their local councillors to vote to keep AIrfield as an open space.

There are few green spaces left in the area,we should not only campaign to save as many open spaces as we can,plus we should also respect the wishes of the previous landowners,the Overrends.

by Stillorgan resident - Local election voter Thu Jan 15, 2004 20:59 Stillorgan

Barry Saul you are a hypocrite. You and your party are at one with the property developers. In the past 5 years since your party won a seat in Stillorgan the prices of houses in the area has trebled. This has meant that an ordinary house has gone beyond the reach of most working families and young people from the area. Your party has also refused to even bring in very minor controls on landlords which mean that thousands of people in the DLR area are subject to rackrenting landlords. Barry you, your party and the entire political establishment are responsible for this. You are in the pockets of the rich and powerful and as a result attack ordinary people again and again, look at the bin tax for example. You support the bin tax, you support the jailings of people for protesting against the tax. Yet when your party stood before the people of Stillorgan in 1999 we did not hear a sinlge word about this tax that you were about to introduce. I will not be voting for you or any of the candidates that stand in this area as none of them represent the interests of ordinary people. Noen of you can be trusted.

by Stillorgan resident - voter Thu Jan 15, 2004 21:12 Stillorgan

My comments can equally be applied to the Green Party. They have done nothing in the Dáil or in the councils in which they have representation to tackle the property developer and landlords. They also are fully behind the bin tax, despite it actually failing to deal with recycling, being the first step to privitisation and incinerators. The Greens are no alternative and don't deserve support in the upcoming elections, even if they are the 'lesser of two evils'.

by john mc dermott - Remove Fianna Fail Party Thu Jan 15, 2004 22:36 jmcd33 at eircom dot net

Dont be so hard on the greens..they are an innocuous bunch..Kind of intellectual nitwits I think .All talk and no fire in the belly!..you are right though.. if they can't p*** they should get off the pot.! and dissolve themselves....they are trading on the name of their European counterparts ...but the franchise should be taken off them .They are getting the"name"a bad name...

by Stillorgan resident - voter Fri Jan 16, 2004 14:05 Stillorgan

You are probably right in describing the GP as a bunch of well meaning types. I know people in the GP and alot of them are well meaning liberals but this does not mean they deserve our support. I am sure that you will find some nice well meaning people among the FF candidates, should we vote for them? Of course not. When deciding who to vote for you have to look at the politics of that person and their party and what their election will mean for the ordinary working person on the ground. A vote for the Greens will do nothing. They have never organised any actions on the ground. They have done nothing against the property speculators or rackrenting landlords. They support privitisation and support the bin tax. In areas they have representation they have done nothing, in North Dublin for example Trevor Sargaent is seen as part of the establishment. Their support for the bin tax is particularly hypocritical. They claim to be for the environment but the bin tax is the first step in the direction of privitisation and inciniration. It will also see the increase of illegal dumping. This bin tax does NOTHING to force the packaging industry to cut down and does nothing to cut down seriously on big business who produce 85% of landfill waste. Instead the ordinary householder who already pays 85% of tax in the country is expected to subsidise big businesses use of landfill. The bin tax is an attack on working people, it is a double tax and is the first step in privitising the bin collection service, which would see a massive attack on the working conditions of the workers. The Green Party do not therefore deserve an anti establishment vote as ultimately they are part of the establishment. People should only vote for candidates and parties that will stand up for working people and organise resistence on the ground. If there is no such candidate in your area you should abstain rather than fall into 'lesser of two evilsism'

by Dave. Kilmacud resident Mon Jan 19, 2004 00:24

How easily we all get distracted by politics....please stick to the issue, this is about retaining Airfield as an amenity for Dublin.

I am very fortunate to live in the area with my family so we regularly visit Airfield. Actually it's probably the only open space we can visit without getting in the car! Family membership is very reasonably priced and the kids love going.

If the Trustees really do believe the future can only be secured by rezoning land for residential use then they have little imagination and should step aside and let someone else take the lead.

I have visited a number of farms in south Wales that have been very tastefully developed to educate and entertain children. They are great fun, great value and profitable. These farms only get business from holiday makers during school vacations. If they can make a profitble business out of it then what excuse do the Airfield trustees have with a million people right on their doorstep, all year round!

Come on Trustees, pull your fingers out and show you give a damn by making a difference for the young people of Dublin.

by Careful Dave Mon Jan 19, 2004 13:21

Dave just don't be fooled at the elections into thinking the Greens, the PDs or any establishment party will save Airfield. They wont their primary loyalty is to the property developer not the people of Stillorgan/Dundrum.

When the councillors vote to stick a motorway or a load of houses on Airfield don't say you have not been warned

by Dave...the Kilmacud resident Mon Jan 19, 2004 13:53

CEO job at Airfield up for grabs! Any takers?

http://www.kpmg.ie/services/ess/opps/curr_56.html

by Cll Barry Saul Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:54

I welcome your comments even if they are posted without your real name.

I support your right to freedom of speech except when it boarders on lies and inaccuracies.

Since being co-opted to the Council in September I challenge you to highlight my voting record when it comes to saving Open spaces in Dun Laoghaire.

by did you object? Tue Jan 20, 2004 22:36

So did Barry Saul object to the planned changes at AIRFIELD?

And will he be voting against them in April and arguing against them in the upcoming meetings with other coucillors?

by Cllr Barry Saul Wed Jan 21, 2004 09:40

I will post a copy of the roll call vote on Airfield.

And yes I voted to keep Airfield as an open space.

And I will be strongly arguing that it should be zoned F open space.

by Stillorgan resident Wed Jan 21, 2004 18:11 Stillorgan

Barry, I chose not to post my name on this site as I have experience of others leaving themselves open to personal attack. But I will guarentee you I am a Stillorgan resident.

You may have a good voting record since your co-option but this is irrelevant really. Firstly, you have the luxury of not being in the balance of power. If your vote was the crucial one would you have really voted against the property developers?
Secondly, you were co-opted in September but you do bear some responsibility for the actions of Fiona O'Malley. You took her seat you should be willing to stand over all her actions, if you did not it would be highly undemocratic. O'Malley voted for bin charges, you support bin charges. When O'Malley was elected in 1999 she said nothing about bin charges, yet 6 months later she voted them in. In your literature you refuse to bring this issue up. Well I'll give you prior notice, the bin tax issue is probably the key issue in these elections. All my neighbours are talking about it and are waiting to have a go at the politicians when ye come knocking on our doors in late May early June.
You are answerable for O'Malleys record, not once has she stood up to the property speculators. She was and is in a government that has presided over massive attacks on the health service, the education system and social welfare. Ansbacher men are allowed walk free while young families are screwed by the speculators and rack renting landlords that your party represent.

Barry Saul, will you pledge to vote agianst bin charges? Will you call for the council to buy up all housing land and to build council houses so as to cut out the speculator? I won't hold my breadth

by one more voter Thu Jan 22, 2004 02:37

Well if Barry Saul did agree to all that he would certainly get my vote and respect. He would join the ranks of the courageous few who havent been bought!

by Saulisasellout Thu Jan 22, 2004 23:30

Saul is a PD!! He will never agree to attack the interests of the landlords and property speculators. The PD's are the party of privilage not of the ordinary person.

by Cllr Barry Saul Fri Jan 23, 2004 09:49

Ok I think we are going well off topic here.
This is about Airfield,not right vs left nor the Bin Charge they should be seperate posts.

I have and will continue to support Airfield.

The councillors of DLRCC needed to hear the peoples voice on this issue,it is important that the FG/FF councillors are lobbyed to change their vote to safe Airfield from Development.

I firmly belive that the state/council should take this into a pubic trust in order to safe guard against future development and keep it as an ammenity for the people.

by Alan Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:36

Will you use your position on the council to take on the property developers? WIll you call for the council to buy up any land for building at pre-zoning prices and then build council houses on it? ? This is the only way that the massive and disgusting profits made by the crooked developers off the backs of young people can be stopped. Will you call for rent controls on land lords. This is not off topic as it concerns development of property in the area.

Even if the bin tax posts are off topic I think as a councillor you should at least give your position on bin charges. It is probably the main issue in the June elections.

by Michael Lemass Sun Jan 25, 2004 17:31 bigears at indigo dot ie

Perhaps here is an opportunity to broaden the debate and look at a root cause rather than Airfield as a symptom.

(Note: What I am writing below is NOT part of the Airfield campaign. It’s a personal interest in understanding the madness that is the current property situation in Ireland.)

While many seem to be able to ignore it I accept that there is a property crisis in this country due to a number of reasons

- a cartel of land owners who control the supply of land and therefore control the price,

- banks overlending, sometimes 5 times the salary rather than 2.5 times

- tax relief on rental income and other tax incentives for property speculation

- more double income couples,

- the way planning permission and rezoning effectively multiplies the value of land. The land (and the planning permission or zoning) can then be sold in one package, benefiting only the owner of the land,

- there are no real rent controls or tenant rights in this country and no long term lease tradition that the continent has. Landlords have total control here which has lead to most people striving to own their own home. Its no surprise to me why there is such a high rate of home ownership in this country.

- Huge profiteering is taking place, property auctions have become like art auctions,

- the mainstream media seem muzzled or unwilling to write in-depth exposés of the situation, some say due to the advertising revenue from estate agents. Please add links if you know of any articles???

- some profits from land development and speculation are given to political parties who have understandably done nothing to change the situation. Why bite the hand that feeds you? Why is it legal? What we are seeing in the tribunals is the tip of an iceberg.

- a lot more people are speculating in property now, due to the massive profits that can be made, pushing prices up further. Property or shelter is no longer just a human right it is now a privilege as the many thousands of homeless people in Ireland will testify to. Its ironic to think that Irish men died in 1916 to free the Irish from a colonial power represented by cruel, absentee landlords. And that now we are all up to our neck in debt or not able to afford a mortgage or sometimes event the rent!

- Most house owners are under the illusion that they are doing really well but the only time a house owner "wins" is if they sell up and emigrate and can buy a property for a fraction of what it would cost in Ireland. By selling their house in Ireland they can sign a cheque for a new property and have no mortgage. In reality a lot of people are up to their neck in debt for the next 30 years, stuck in jobs they aren’t interested in and then there are those who cant even get onto the property ladder. In case you didn’t know the literal translation of the word "Mortgage" is "grip of death". (Michael Rowbotham wrote a book called "The grip of death".)

I think this should be an election issue but so far it never has.

I also believe it is a profound human rights issue.

------------------------------

Some things I would call for would be:

Tenant rights, rent controls and the availability of long term leases would be a start.

Nationalising the banks and letting the government spend money into the economy rather than allowing banks invent money in the form of a debt when their clients borrow money.
(See "The grip of death" by Michael Rowbotham)

Interest free banking. The Koran and the bible outlaw usury but only Arab banks remain interest-free. Did christians forget?

I don’t hold out much hope on the above but one can always dream!

;-)

---------------------------

In terms of solutions that could interest Barry Saul, other councillors, TDs, MEPs and people who are posting about more social housing:

* * * WARNING: This is dynamite! * * *

( which is why you have probably never heard of it!!! )


If the council are looking to generate new funds through rates etc I would suggest another option open to them which is to consider a Land Value Tax. Its not a new idea, its been around for a long time. Henry George was the author of the world's first best-selling book on economics, "Progress and Poverty" (1879). In it he detailed how a land value tax would work.

http://www.henrygeorgefoundation.org

George was influenced by earlier sages such as David Ricardo, Tom Paine and John Stuart Mill, who wrote: "The increase in the value of land, arising as it does from the efforts of an entire community, should belong to the community and not to the individual who might hold title."

Land value increases as more people want to live and carry out business in the same area and when tax money is spent on improving an area.

Very simply, a land value tax can effectively recoup some of the tax money spent on the provision of public services and allow the whole community benefit from the increased land values which the community has been responsible for.

In terms of cartels of landowners controlling land supply and prices, the tax encourages land owners to develop their land or sell it which prevents hoarding of land and control of supply and therefore artificially inflated prices.

Property values along the Dart line increased dramatically as tax money was spent on the rail services. This well known phenomenon is now happening along the Luas line and the M50. The rezoning of land along the M50 near Carrickmines could result in a windfall of up to 3 billion euros for people who were smart enough to buy land along the motorway. But over-development along this stretch could lead to gridlock on the motorway(that’s another story).

One property owner in London, Don Riley, wrote a book called "Taken for a ride". He couldn’t believe how much his property along the Jubilee Line had increased in value due to tax money being spent on the line. He estimated that the Jubilee line in London, which cost £3.5bn, led to an increase in the value of land nearby of £13bn. His property increased so much in value, even though he had done nothing to improve his land, that he started to advocate a land value tax and wrote his book!

A quick google search for - "Taken for a ride" land value tax - gave these links(among many others)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/economicdispatch/story/0,12498,984921,00.html

http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text89_p.html

http://ellisctaylor.homestead.com/henrygeorge.html

A land value tax has operated and is operating in some parts of the world.

Japan had a land value tax for many years but The Marshall Plan required the Japanese to end their land value tax after the 2nd World War. Without the tax they had to deal with a massive property value bubble a few decades later. In some towns in the USA they have a land value tax. Denmark has also successfully operated a Land Value Tax. Its not theory, it works.

It has been proposed that if governments or councils implemented a land value tax that they would be able to pay for all public services from the revenues that a land value tax would generate. This in turn would mean that the government could tax citizens less. Henry George believed it would be the only tax necessary to impose by governments!

Last November, an Irish sustainable economics organisation, www.feasta.org, in conjunction with www.henrygeorgefoundation.org, ran a 2 day conference on Land and in particular looked at a land value tax as a very fair solution for many different groups concerned with the land/property situation in Ireland. It was attended by some councillors and TDs.

For more information about this conference look at

http://www.feasta.org/housing.htm

http://www.feasta.org/events/landconf/landconfbrief.html

For a transcript of the talk given at the conference by Fred Harrison, director of the Centre for Land Policy Studies in the UK

http://www.feasta.org/documents/landhousing/ppleaflet.ppt

http://www.feasta.org/documents/landhousing/ppleaflet.pdf

More on Feasta:
http://www.feasta.org/

I challenge all TDs, MEPs, Councillors and journalists in the mainstream media to start talking about a Land Value Tax and examine the potential benefits and downsides.

I dare you!

Michael Lemass

[email protected]

by Eddie Gahan Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:04

You're right. We're so in the pocket of the rich vested interests that we brought in a minimum wage, the PIAB and are bringing up the OAP to €200 per week. Damm it, how can we ignore the working man like that.