Community Worker to stand for ISN in Finglas

by ISNer Mon Jan 12, 2004 14:37

I would have thought Colm Breathnach was going to be their candidate?

by Labour Lover Mon Jan 12, 2004 15:21

...I hardly think Mary Murphy formerly of INOU is an unknown.

by Capitalist Labour watch Mon Jan 12, 2004 15:35

Mary who?

by LP watch Mon Jan 12, 2004 15:58

She's obviously some Labour hack that has been involved as a bureaucrat in the poverty industry. Like most Labour candidates, she certainly has not been involved in the rank and file workers movement whatsoever.

by ProBlockades Mon Jan 12, 2004 16:15

I wish ISN well in the election. I think that it is a positive thing that a genuine bin tax campaigner stands against that fraud Dessie Ellis. Lets hope that the ISN win the seat off SF and lets hope SF lose out to genuine anti bin tax candidates across the city.

by fingallian Mon Jan 12, 2004 17:13

has spent his entire life fighting for the Irish working class when the likes of this charachter - who BTW is almost unknown in Finglas and will be lucky to get 3 or 400 votes - was a sticky hack. He hasnt a hope of taking a seat and more likely SF will take two.

by Republican Mon Jan 12, 2004 17:20

I think the ISN will be happier to beat the FF, PD, FG and Lab candidates and that ProBlockades is a troll.
If not it could be an anagram of Blockader Ops and we all know who Blockader is and why he is rabidly anti-republican.

by anti bin tax supporter Mon Jan 12, 2004 17:56

Good luck and congrats to John & ISN for standing in the local elections. It would be great if genuine community activists and radical lefts such as John and others like him could take seats in the local elections.

As regards getting a slate of genuine activists and radical lefts together for the local elections, does the ISN beleive that there is a realistic prospect of pulling this together in time for the local elections?

by Mike and the Allenettes Mon Jan 12, 2004 17:59

Mary Murphy formerly of the INOU, formerly a critic of social partnership, formerly in favour of peoples empowerment not coalitionism, formerly vocal but strangely silent on jailing of Finglas anti bin tax campaigners, now full time poverty industry consultant and candidate of the Rabbitte Privatisation Party.

by 2004 Mon Jan 12, 2004 18:44

"An experienced political activist, he played a key role in the success of the Workers Party in Finglas during the 1980s. Unlike some of his former colleagues, John has remained committed to a radical democratic vision of socialism." - Does this mean than the ISN believe that the Workers Party was a radical democratic socialist party?

"He has an unrivalled campaigning record. " - Do you not think this is a major exageration, he is probably one of the least active people on the left in this city.

"He is also an active peace campaigner and was the main organiser in the Finglas area for the massive anti-war demo that was held in Dublin on February 15th of last year." Again another way over the top statement.

"John is making one simple promise; that he will use his position to encourage and assist that empowerment process rather than pretending that councillors can implement change from above." Is this another way of saying that the ISN has no policies?

"In line with its vision of participating with others in building a broad party of the working class, the ISN hopes that it will be possible to put together a united slate of community and radical left candidates in the local elections. The ISN will participate in any such initiative either at a national or Dublin level." The only other people who are standing in the elections who are actively seeking such a slate are the SWP. Can we expect a joint SWP and ISN election slate?

by John - ISN (personal capacity) Mon Jan 12, 2004 18:44

Thanks for the messages of support.

Re the reply of fingallian, yes I was a "stickie hack" for many years but I am no longer a member or supporter of the WP and I admit that the politics of the WP when I was a member were wrong.

I don't know the extent of my support in Finglas but I want to put on the record that I don't agree that Dessie Ellis is a fraud. The real frauds in Finglas are Fianna Fail and they are who the left want to defeat.

On the subject of a 'slate' I don't know if there will be any attempts to put one together but I would personally support any such development.

by Four minutes past eight Mon Jan 12, 2004 18:57

Why don't you say who YOU are. So then we can compare your record with John O'Neill's.
You've a lot to say but hardly likely to get any answers if you can't even identify your own political leanings.

by 2005 Mon Jan 12, 2004 20:10

Oh boy the grown up anonymous trolls will be out in force round here soon - it will not be pretty

by Desmond Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:26

John, you say Ellis is not a fraud, which is right. I'd hardly say that SF stand up for working class people but Ellis does seem to be better than most SFers and to call someone a fraud is fairly serious.

But could you please outline your differences with Ellis regarding the tactics of the bin tax campaign. From what I hear Ellis always played a very conservative role and always argued against blockades and taking a stand in the courts etc.

by Republican Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:39

Either you are a gobshite or a troll or perhaps as trollwatch has said a SP member probably Blockader.
I think the fact that John did two weeks in prison is evidence enough of the difference in tactics employed by John and Dessie.
But the key thing here is that all they were was a difference in tactics.
Perhaps Desmond would like to outline his viewpoint and his political leanings.

by Desmond Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:43

I will gladly tell you my political leanings. I would describe myself as a libertarian. But I am not an anarchist, I am not in any party. And I do not oppose the tactic of standing in elections. I will be supporting any decent progressive candidate in the next election that has a good track record of opposing the bin tax.

by Earthling Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:49

Desmond's last statement
"I will be supporting any decent progressive candidate in the next election that has a good track record of opposing the bin tax."

Desmond's first statement
"But could you please outline your differences with Ellis regarding the tactics of the bin tax campaign. From what I hear Ellis always played a very conservative role and always argued against blockades and taking a stand in the courts etc."

I reckon you are a troll.
Reconcile the two statements.
Either you couldn't read the introduction or you wouldn't know a candidate with a good record of opposing the bin tax if they stood in front of you.

by Desmond Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:55

I don't see any contradiction in those two statements. Maybe I am trying to see if Ellis is an activist with a decent record. I am not on the ground in Finglas so I don't know all I have heard is a few rumours about differences regrading blockades.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN (Personal Capacity) Tue Jan 13, 2004 13:13

While some important issues have been raised in this thread and serious questions have been posed, unfortunately almost all comments have been anonymous. I wont respond to anonymous comments because the primary intent of such comments is to not serious debate but mischieve making. If any of the anon. contributers wish to put there names (and organisations) to their comments I will try to respond as best I can, or if they wish to do so privately they can email the ISN at the above address or email me at [email protected].

Since Desmond's intervention seems to be a genuine one I will address his point. In terms of tactics the ISN has consistently argued for the use of direct action such as blockades, as part of an overall strategy of mobilising people against the Bin Tax. We also saw the importance of other tactics such as mass meeting, demos etc. The important point is that ISN members engaged in all these activities and encouraged others to do so as well.

This positon was not exclusive to the ISN and in the Finglas campaign there was little or no disagreement between ISN,SP, SF and non-aligned members over tactics. In fact the Finglas campaign has been one of the most successful ones because of this unity.

Regarding the difference between the ISN view and SF on the Bin Tax, I would say that SF has clearly articulated the view that the primary way to defeat the Bin Tax is through the victory of anti-bin tax candidates in the elections. This view is shared by some on the far-left. The ISN position is that while it is important to use the elections, the primary way in which the tax will be defeated is through people power. By this I mean the creative use of tactics that involve the ordinary people directly whether it be blockades,returning packaging to supermarkets, picketing FF advice centres, following bin trucks to dump uncollected rubbish etc. Electoral work can compliment these tactics as long as it is not used to stifle them ie 'Oh dont do that it will be bad publicity'. In practical terms for the ISN, this means we will continue to argue (and act on) these militant tactics while participating in electoral work as well.

by Desmond Tue Jan 13, 2004 13:48

Thank you Colm for your reply. It's answered some questions I had. good luck in the election!

Editors - I agree with the post calling for the trolls to be deleted. Personally I'm sick of indymedia being ruined by these idiots.

by Finglasian Tue Jan 13, 2004 14:26

Finglas will elect Dessie Ellis in the local elections. I hope John also takes a seat at the expense of the capitalist parties. Some 'socialiats' would prefer that the SF seat would fall. Dont worry! The SP are irrelevant in Finglas they have only got 3 members. This seems to make them particularly vicious. They have even used interviews in the capitalist media to pretend that the ISN doesnt exist and mentioned John and Colm as being ex members of the WP.

Power corrupts but impotence corrupts absolutely.

by Chekov - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Tue Jan 13, 2004 15:31

I have just gone to the trouble of deleting all the stupid comments about the SP from this thread on the grounds that they are completely irrelevant. Has nobody noticed that this article and discussion have nothing whatsoever to do with the SP???

Then 'Leon' comes in and does his best to restart the troll fest by making the claim that no SP people ever lie or troll on Indymedia and that the QUB allegation (which has already been deleted from this thread as it is irrelevant) is bogus. Merely mentioning the two letters 'SP' here is like throwing a grenade into an arms dump and it is pretty obvious that SP people are involved. There would have to be hundreds of full time provocateurs to keep up this level of trolling!

I don't know whether Leon is a troll or is just stupid, but making such outlandish claims is designed to restart such wars. Could people please refrain from getting drawn into it. If they are interested in the QUB issue, follow the link below. If they are interested in the SP, there are many, many threads devoted to their most minute internal details. But please don't pollute this thread any more.

by john - ISN (personal capacity) Tue Jan 13, 2004 17:25

I think Colm is right and maybe it should be policy of all IMC contributors, to refuse to respond to anonomous posts, however, I would like to clear up the matter of John McCamley and his interview.

I will admit that I was personally annoyed by the article in the "Irish Times" but I have been assured that this was the fault of the journalist rather than John Mc Camley so as far as I am concerned it is water under the bridge. Lets move on please.

by Mickey Tue Jan 13, 2004 18:33

Good luck to John and to other socialists involved in the election.

I am entertained, but sadly not surprised to see that even this thread - which has nothing to do with the SP other than a comment from someone stating that the SP will be calling for a vote for John - has been invaded by trolls.

by Northsider Tue Jan 13, 2004 18:49

As a veteran election nerd, though not a Finglasite, heres my prediction for the four seat Finglas Ward:

Dessie Ellis will top the poll, coming well over the quota and transfer the bulk of his preferences to the second SF candidate.

FF will win one seat but their vote will be greatly reduced with Pat Carey TD not standing.

The last two seats are up for grabs, though the odds are on Labour holding their seat though again with a reduced vote due to Roisin Shortall TD not standing.

The final seat was held by Tony Taafe, a former FFer who isnt standing this time. FG failed to win a seat here last time and are unlikely to make a recovery. The PDs and the Greens wont make any impact in this overwhelmingly working class area. The odds have to be on SF but don't forget that the WP used to totally dominate this area in the 1980's and as an ex-member O Neill could sweep enough of those exWP voters to put in a creditable performance.

by D11er Tue Jan 13, 2004 18:54

I think your prediction is interesting although one thing you haven't factored in - the wildcard. Dr Bill - will he or won't he run.

by Northsider Tue Jan 13, 2004 19:04

Ah the inimitable Dr. Bill!

The maverick former Labour member and consultant, Dr. Bill Tormey did well in the last locals, coming fourth but losing out to FF on transfers. Somehow I doubt if he'll run this time, he seems more interested in writing slightly excentric books and defending the poor hard done by consultants. If he does run I predict a greatly reduced vote for the Finglas Fizzition.

by Stephen Boyd - Socialist Party Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:14

Comments on this thread by some who claim to be informed Socialist Party members are incorrect. The Socialist Party has yet to make a decision on whether it will stand in Finglas. The Socialist Party has not decided to support the ISN candidate, as we have yet to decide whether we will stand ourselves. The list of candidates for the local elections in June is incomplete because our campaign for the Dublin City Council is still under discussion.

by Finglasian Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:18

Would you please clarify Joan Collins position. The July Voice named her as a candidate for crumlin. But in the latest list she has been dropped. What has changed over the last few months to lead to her deselection? Has she offended the SP leadership in some manner?

by Pundit Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:46

I really wish Stephen Boyd would clear things up about the SP and Finglas. Is he really suggesting that John MacCamley is aviable candidate when they have only three members in the area? I am also interested in hearing more as to why Stalins Airbrush has been applied to Joan Collins in the latest Voice.

by Left Unity watch Wed Jan 14, 2004 14:48

God love the poor patsies.
There they are trying to do their bit for left unity. Making a big thing of how they overcame their sectarianism and worked with Clare Daly in the last general election. Go to court with SP members over a dispute in the airport. Go to jail because they agree with the SP's tactics for the bin tax campaign and lo and behold their reward.

Their Masters voice states:
"The Socialist Party has yet to make a decision on whether it will stand in Finglas. The Socialist Party has not decided to support the ISN candidate, as we have yet to decide whether we will stand ourselves."

ISN (Left Unity) = I Suppose Not

by ??? Wed Jan 14, 2004 17:25

Some of Leon's contributions were removed.
Has the Indymedia ed board discovered that he/she was a troll. If so - why leave some of their comments and pull others.

by 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Wed Jan 14, 2004 17:46

- any other queries about deletions on this thread take them to the editorial list through the contact link on top of page or through the subscribe link where you can sign up to the editorial/newswire lists If someone turns up and can prove they are 'leon-sp' and a member of the SP I will eat my fucking laptop with tabasco on top. Any of you trolls who think you have anything to offer the left or indymedia by provoking knee jerk faction fights are delusional spoiled greedy ignorant spiteful and should go and learn that people have a right to have different opinions than you You are the kind of headbangers who would go quiet and blushful and stammering if you ever met for instance - Joe Higgins - Anonymity to protect onesself from googling fine - anonymity so as to be able to decieve /personate / abuse / engender division and mistrust is nothing but cowardice - go away -

by Ray Wed Jan 14, 2004 18:09

If you ask a resonable question once, and it is ignored, people may wonder why the question isn't being answered, and perhaps think less of the person who remains silent.
If you ask a reasonable question every time a person or group is mentioned, it becomes an unreasonable question, and people wonder why the trolls won't shut the fuck up.

by 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group Wed Jan 14, 2004 18:12

It's up to them to answer if they want to - anonymous shitstirrers jumping up and down demanding answers do nothing but piss other users off - Users have enough brains to see when someone is skirting an issue and when they are not. We dont need assholes to constantly shout it in our faces and act like an identifiable unanonymous person excercising their right is some kind of crime. I mean - who are you fucking people who do this - cos I'll tell you what - you are a waste of (virtual) space. (this is a personal opinion btw and not IMC policy )

by 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Wed Jan 14, 2004 18:19

You are either very unable or unwilling to read or you are a troll. Take your question on deletions - which I've kindly deleted for you - to the lists as indicated a few comments above.

by Militant Wed Jan 14, 2004 20:37

There he goes again. The Editor of the Voice and SP Union organiser intervening on indymedia over some obscure local issue. Surely there are more important things to do? For goodness sake Stephen stick to your real responsibilities. This issue of the Voice was an improvement on the last one but there is still a long way to go. In the Unions there is simply no organised left and the SP have'nt even a tenth of the influence Militant used to have.

You are paid by party members to do a job, so leave indymedia to others and get on with it.

by Mr Disco - SA Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:41

Hope it all goes well.

(show me someone on the left who has'nt been in a dubious group at some time in their lives)

People should stop trolling, as was said, the real problem is the power crazies in FF FG Labour.

by Old Moore Thu Jan 15, 2004 15:39

Heres my prediction for the three anti bin tax candidates in Finglas:

Dessie 'I was just repairing a tv' Ellis (SF) will get half a million votes cos he's the only counsillor in the City active in the bin tax campaign.

John 'I used to be a sticky but now I have a dose of the trots' O Neill (ISN) will get a few hundred votes for doing a fortnight in the Joy for blocading a bin truck.

Stephen 'Haddens little Hamster' Boyd will stand for the SP and get one vote cos he gave a commitment to the City Council that he would'nt obstruct bin trucks so that he could avoid court and jail (Check with DCC under the Freedom of Information Act if you think thats not true) and two out of three average SP members know a plonker when they see one.

by truth Thu Jan 15, 2004 20:30

"Dessie 'I was just repairing a tv' Ellis (SF) will get half a million votes cos he's the only counsillor in the City active in the bin tax campaign."

Who is really guilty of using stalinist airbrush methods? From what I remember Clare Daly and Ruth Coppinger were very very active in the campaign. They are both councillors.

by You can't handle the truth Fri Jan 16, 2004 09:59

Are Ruth and Clare city councillors?
Keep up at the back.

by truth Fri Jan 16, 2004 13:15

"...he's the only counsillor (sic) in the City active in the bin tax campaign"

It says nothing about a City Councillor, it says Councillor IN THE CITY. Most people view most of Fingal as being part of the greater Dublin city area. Actually there are parts of Finglas that are in Fingal. 'Old Moore' is trying to mislead and downplay the role played by Ruth and Clare.

by You can't handle the truth Fri Jan 16, 2004 14:08

Back in your kennel.

The world doesn't revolve around the SP.
It was clear to anybody of a reasonable IQ that Old Moore was talking about the city council. Finglas being in that council area.

Why not have a look at the recent Voice. According to recent SP input here they consider the city as a whole and that is the reason why Joan Collins hasn't been named as a candidate. They are waiting to name all the city candidates.

Its amazing the way SP people change the rules to suit themselves and you and your last contribution are prime examples.

by Old Moore Fri Jan 16, 2004 14:12

Struck a raw nerve there eh?

Well most people know that when you say city, you mean city council area.

Just to sooth poor Truths raw nerves Old Moore predicts that Clare (and Ruth) will get half a million votes cos she's the leading activist in Fingal and she went to jail for her principles rather than avoiding it through a legal sneakhole. Oh and two out of every three SP members know a principled socialist when they see one.

PS The Truth is out there somewhere, its just that we dont see him on the frontline cos he's so busy doing the really important work in Head Office.