Tim "Wipe Them Out " Collins quits army?

by Drbinoche Sun Jan 11, 2004 22:21

"now regarded very much by all as a man of shame" I don't view him as a man of shame, so theres your whole viewed by all as a man of shame. I believe he is a very noble and resourceful man. I think he fought for his country and deserves respect from you guys. I don't think you can hold anything against him as he has help to aid your freedom to comdemn him. Why don't you all join the army and see if the experience does not open your eyes a little bit, maybe helps you see things a bit more clearly than you do now.

As for his past, its just that his PAST. Do you honestly intend on holding tese things against him for the rest of his life. Fuck you guys don't half hold grudges. You must have very few friends if you can hold grudges against a man you know NOTHING about over something that has not affected you.

Finally, I thought you guys would be happy hes leaving the army. Armies are used in wars, you guys are anti-war, no armies = no wars, so I would think you guys would be more in favour of as many people leaving the army as possible. As for flights home, OK they should get flights home and all you guys who love Iraq and Afghanistan soooo much should get free flights to the countries, so maybe you could see reality and then make your observations about the occupation.

by observant Sun Jan 11, 2004 23:00

You are correct in opposing the statement of " regarded very much by all as a man of shame". So in regard to the opposition that began your response was merely pedantic.

How ever I suggest to you that you speak to the family of Paul Cochrane who may tell you from experience that noble is not the correct adjective to use in the same sentence as Collin's name.

Because he fought for the British army - It does not achieve automatic respect - more likely to result in automatic disrespect for a force that wrecked and continues to have a presence in Ireland. Inreference to joining the army - why would any intelligent person become part of a machine that benefits only those corporations that back their relevant governments.

When a person serves according to your respects his country - should his actions not be transparent to that country - something that the parents of Paul Cochrance did not get when asking for a thorough investigation into the facts surroundinfgtheir sons early death -
In regard to asking if the past really matters ask Paul's parents or ask the young soldier who was raped on the night of cochrane's funeral while collins' was fully aware of the rapists past actions under his command and did nothing.

In regards to holding grudges - If any of my friends commited " war crimes" I doubt I would regard them as friends again?

The first comment from myself was not in elation nor disregard for his leaving the army it was to question the politics behind his move. But i grant you one relevant point that as an anti war activist I am glad to see anyone leave an army engaged in illegal occupations or otherwise.

And to conclude my response to your article - I would like to say that if you offered free flights now to the regions of both Afghanistan and Iraq many activists would be more than willing to go their an bear witness to the crimes against humanity that are occurring on a daily basis.

by hooded idiot Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:27

"I don't think you can hold anything against him as he has help to aid your freedom to comdemn him."

Oh was Saddam gonna invade Ireland and deny us our free speech? Is that what the war was about? Really?

Wow, god bless the Americans and British for looking out for us like that! What would we do without them?

by righteous pragmatist Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:52

"I don't think you can hold anything against him as he has help to aid your freedom to comdemn him."

Oh was Saddam gonna invade Ireland and deny us our free speech? Is that what the war was about? Really?

Wow, god bless the Americans and British for looking out for us like that! What would we do without them?

As a result of the war in Iraq millions of Iraqis are no longer under the thumb of a the fascist dictator Saddam Hussein. Tim Collins was part of that great victory and so should be called a hero not a war criminal.

Saddam Hussein murdered more than two million Iraqi Kurds, Shites, Sunnis, Turkomen and Marsh Arabs, Iranians, and Kuwaitis by torture and execution.
He can no longer torture and kill anyone from his prison cell.

Saddam developed chemical weapons, tried to develope biological weapons and very nearly developed nuclear weapons. He used chemical weapons against the Kurdish town of Hallabjah during the Iran-Iraq war killing 3000 people and used chemical weapons against Iranian troops.
He had the intention to develope more WMD although in 2003 he may well have suspended his weapons programmes and destroyed stockpiles. However given the chance he would revert to past habits.
The Americans were not going to risk any chance that Saddam would use his connections with terrorist groups around the world to distribute WMD for use against civilian targets in the U.S. and E.U. the two political groupings which were prepared to stand up to him in the UN.
The very fact that France and Germany became weak at the knees in the face of the threat of Saddam Hussein proves the danger of appeasing him.
Ireland would have been among the nations of the world who would be blackmailed with terror by Saddam if he achieved his goal of acquiring a huge stock pile of WMD.

So free the Iraqi people and to remove the threat of WMD and Saddam Hussein's capture were the goals of the war in Iraq.
Sadly a few thousand people died but as a result millions of others can now live free from Saddam's murder squads and rape and torture and execution chambers.

That is what the war was all about! Really!

Tim Collins a fighting Ulsterman was one element which brought about this wondrous and glorious victory for peace and democracy!
WHO DARES WINS!

by Canteen Kevin Tue Jan 13, 2004 14:28

The striking thing these right wing throwbacks all seem to have in common is their snivelling sycophancy which must have come from some form of voluntary lobotomy. No matter how many times their pathetic irrevevancies and deliberate distortions are discredited, they persist in coming back with idoitic spin about the world being safer without Saddam, freedom in Iraq (the country is being pillaged, elections will only be held when the US already knows the outcome)and macho posturing over Germany and France.

This Collins scumbag is an Irish renegade who chose to side with foreigners against his own people and whose "humanitarian" speech to his troops about to unleash war on Iraqi people was a pre-conceived and cynical attempt to dazzle the media who, being lickspittles for the most part, naturally wet themselves.

Collins is no doubt retiring in a flurry of publicity to pave the way for a career in the media. He leaves behind troops who, only last week, (report in London Independent 2nd Jan) were responsible for the beating to death of at least one Iraqi in custody and continuing torture of many others not to mention the murder of unarmed demonstrators. I wonder where they learnt to treat natives like that?

by Drbinoche Tue Jan 13, 2004 20:56

I find it amazing how the anti-war people continuously bring up the lie spread about Tim Collins assaulting Iraqis. Even though the man was proven to be innocent by an independent group of investigators, you still bring up this lie. Even though it was proven that the lie was started by a US Army reservist who had a beef with Collins over some issues, you still bring it up. I thought you all believed in Innocent until proven Guilty and since he has not been proven Guilty, its not very fair of you to continuously accuse him of something he did not do.

You accuse us of rehashing old 'lies', yet you guys are as guilty. Before the war started you claimed that upwards of 50000 people would die in the war. At present the figure has not even reached 10000. You claimed that Saddam Hussein would never be caught and yet he was. On other topics you go on about how some technologies produced in Ireland are used to Kill innocent civilians around the world. Yet today Amnesty International stated that they had NO PROOF of the systems created here being used anywhere where innocent people are being oppressed. So if we are guilty of rehashing info again and again, I suppose you guys are as bad.

by cabhog Tue Jan 13, 2004 21:07

Interesting to note that Roger Cole ehen asked if he thought Saddam Hussein was guilty of crimes against humainity and war crimes in the Sunday Tribune two weekends ago, Roger said he could not come to a verdict, therefore he found him not guilty. This is an attitude one finds amongst many members of the left in this forum.

However a baseless allegation against a decent man, Tim Collins, keeps being brought up. Probably, because USA/UK=BAD Everyone else (except democarcies)=GOOD

by kokomero Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:01

Leave the cheerleading jingoism to one side and admit the Americans and their English lapdogs did not invade Iraq to get rid of WMD.

There were none and they have admitted they have not found any despite thousands of inspectors scouring the country for a year.

If WMD was really the motivation why don't they invade any of the following:

Israel
North Korea
Pakistan
India
Iran
Syria
Lybia

or in the past:

Argentina
South Africa

The answer is the reason they invaded Iraq was:

a) Iraq has vast oil reserves they wanted to get their hands on
b) it was an easy target
c) it was a convenient scapegoat for the Americans other problems

On the subject of Collins it is important to remember that both the Brits and the Americans have a history of systematic abuse of prisoners (Northern Ireland, Guantanamo), and evading international justice (rape in Okinawa, cable car with 30 dead in Italy) so don't try to lecture us as if they occupy the moral high ground, they don't!

Collins is certainly due a fair trial but it is pretty obvious this will never happen, one possibility that springs to mind is that he will never be prosecuted on the condition he leaves the army?

by Canteen Kevin Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:12

I did not not once, nor repeatedly, bring up the allegedly disproved charge that Collins assaulted Iraqis. I merely refered to a report in the London Independent which reported the Brits in Iraq having grudingly admitted that one Iraqi was beaten to death in their custody. The story only came out when they were forced to send at least two others to hospital before they would also die from receipt of similar treatment. The torturers involved would have been under Collins command.

You moan of repeatedly bringing up "lies" by repeated use of the word, I counted use of the word at least 4 times. Parroting halftruths and misquotes, another classic right wing tactic. Oh and only 10,000 died since Amerikas revenge on Iraq began,not 50,000, (btw the US/CPA rarely stop to count Iraqi casualties civilian or otherwise and this death toll is regarded as a serious underestimate) I can't wait for Bush to use that excuse in some beautiful day in the future when the little chimp is called to account for his crimes.

by Drbinoche Wed Jan 14, 2004 20:45

"The torturers involved would have been under Collins command."

So you can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the troopers involved were under Collins command. Definitely, they were not under anybody elses command. Can you provide some evidence to prove this?? Maybe give me some unit names and commanding officers names??

"You moan of repeatedly bringing up "lies" by repeated use of the word, I counted use of the word at least 4 times. "

Yes I do bring it up alot, because quite frankly there is not one side involved in this wat who are telling the whole truth and you know it. No one is telling every single truth, because everyone in some way or shape is doing something contradictory.

"Parroting halftruths and misquotes, another classic right wing tactic."

Moaning like a Bitch with a skint knee, another typical Left-wing tactic. When in doubt, moan until someone pays attention.

"Oh and only 10,000 died since Amerikas revenge on Iraq began,not 50,000, (btw the US/CPA rarely stop to count Iraqi casualties civilian or otherwise and this death toll is regarded as a serious underestimate)"

No it still has not reached 10,000, so your wrong there. Also America is spelt with a 'c' not a 'k'. I know less than 10,000 have died, I was saying how the Anti-war people were spouting out fcats that 50,000 would die if the war went ahead. Well the war went ahead and less than 10,000 have died to date. Maybe the main reason they don't stop to count the dead is because they are under attack and stopping during a Firefight is like painting a big red bullseye on yourself. As for the countless Iraqis that are getting killed everyday, I believe someone once stated that it was averaging out at 44 per day, could we please have photos and dates and names, and all of the other EVIDENCE that such attrocities are going on. Otherwise it is purely hear-say and conjecture.

"I can't wait for Bush to use that excuse in some beautiful day in the future when the little chimp is called to account for his crimes."

Ah the cry of someone living in his own little idealistic world. Do you honestly think that Bush is going to end up at some futuristic Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Please wake up. To start with the chances of anyone ever trying to get the President or even the former president of the USA up on War Crime charges are pathetically small. It didn't really work against Pinochet, you got nowhere against Cowan and Ahern. I would advise you guys giving up on this beliefe that one day you'll have em all up on charges. Aint gonna happen. Secondly, lets just say that Bush is this evil a man, and he is the anti-christ himself etc, do you honestly think he is gonna get caught. He has enough backing and enoguh dirt and enough people ON his side that he will NEVER get charged. And that is something I would be willing to put serious money on!

by ec Wed Jan 14, 2004 21:40

Nobody counts civilian casualties since the 'hot' war and journalists are kept out of major hospitals by USK troops.

by kokomero Thu Jan 15, 2004 15:42

Collins was the CO of the RIR in Iraq!

“The height of his ambition was to command The Royal Irish Regiment on operations, something he achieved during the Iraq campaign. It’s time for a fresh challenge.”

by Canteen Kevin Thu Jan 15, 2004 19:27

This Drbinoche has all the perception of a soggy mass of shit paper.

"Do you honestly think that Bush is going to end up at some futuristic Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Please wake up. " - Thanks for pointing that out to me and presuming that everyone else is as dense as yourself by taking things literally.

"Also America is spelt with a 'c' not a 'k'.", -again, full marks for perception, maybe I should have spelt it Amerik@.

"Maybe the main reason they don't stop to count the dead is because they are under attack and stopping during a Firefight is like painting a big red bullseye on yourself." -

Yes indeed it is a disgrace that the time honoured tradition of only counting casualties DURING fighting appears to be dying out among the American occupation forces.

As for demanding evidence of the uncounted tens of thousands of deaths caused by Amerik@'s 2nd war of revenge - go check for yourself something other than "Young Patriot" or "Kickarabass.com". If you want to wallow in narrow-minded ignorance and reaction, that's your problem.

Anyway more on Collins, turns out he's a child beater as well.

by Canteen Kevin Thu Jan 15, 2004 19:44

Wrong link before; This is from British Helsinki Human Rights Group;

"The most extraordinary, nigh inexplicable aspect of this strange tale is the response of Murdoch’s own Sun newspaper. On 22nd May, The Sun went to town, not only did it report the story, it also published some highly unflattering ‘pen portraits’ of the Colonel from people who did not seem to share Ms. Oliver and Prince Charles’s love affair with the Sun’s former pin up boy.

'He snubbed suicide son'

By NEIL SYSON

NOT everyone agrees with Col Tim Collins’ forthright style.

And four cases brought to The Sun’s attention yesterday show that at best he might be heavy-handed and at worst is a bully.

CASE 1 came from a grieving dad whose squaddie son committed suicide in mysterious circumstances while under Col Collins’ command.

Royal Irish Regiment ranger Paul Cochrane, 18, fired his gun into his mouth while talking to dad Billy on the phone in 2001.

Belfast cabbie Billy told how the desperate lad begged Col Collins for help in a letter he wrote three weeks before his death. But the dad said: “Collins did nothing.”

An Army welfare officer tried to discover Paul’s problems but was told he was a happy lad.

All that is known is that he was suffering from a serious ear infection while serving at Drumadd barracks, Armagh.

But senior officers would not let him take home leave urged by doctors.

Paul told his parents he was getting “hassle” and told Col Collins he felt “deserted” by the regiment.

On the day he died he wrote a letter to his family referring to a secret tape he made of a meeting with senior officers.

The tape was found destroyed in the barracks grounds three days later.

Billy is convinced senior officers know its contents. But he says the Army has refused to give him details of an internal investigation into the death.

The dad said: “I’ve met Collins since. He is a law unto himself, no one can question him. He acts like the Terminator.”

CASE 2 concerns a chaplain who left Col Collins’ unit a year ago after claiming the CO bullied him relentlessly.

The cleric, in his 40s, lodged a formal complaint saying Col Collins screamed abuse at him while waving his fists.

A source said: “The chaplain got sick and tired of the bullying. His replacement lasted just a few months. I think he ran into similar problems.”

Military police probed the complaint but no action was taken.

CASE 3 came from an Army wife who called The Sun to tell how Col Collins thumped four boys aged 12 and 13 after they set fire to leaves near regiment homes in Canterbury.

She said: “He put his hand into a fist and swiped each one around the head. The force of one blow made two boys crack their heads together.”

The wife added that Col Collins then summoned the boys’ fathers, all soldiers.

When one dad threatened to alert the press, the colonel allegedly said: “If you want your life, don’t.”

CASE 4 involves a senior officer who served under Col Collins in Ulster.

He said the CO ruled by creating “a climate of fear”.

And he added: “He loses his rag so quickly and violently there were bound to be problems in Iraq.”

BHHRG turned to the paper’s leader page expecting to find a rousing 150 word defence of The Sun’s own desert hero. There was nothing there.

What can have caused this amazing fall from grace? Apparently, Lt.-Colonel Collins was ‘shopped’ by an American major, shocked by his treatment of POWs and local Iraqis. Apart from The Sun, all British news outlets have put this down to ‘sour grapes’ and the US army’s ‘jealousy’ as its British counterpart is constantly praised for its sensitive, experienced way of handling peace-keeping compared with the Yanks’ ‘shoot from the hip’ approach. Maybe the boot is now on the other foot and we might find that the preening, self-regarding Brits are no different – maybe, dare one say it, they might occasionally be even worse. Not impossible, according to the people interviewed in The Sun.

Whatever one’s response to a possible falling out between the (two) members of the famed ‘coalition’, the whole episode is very mysterious. As veteran war correspondent, Bill Deedes pointed out after hearing Collins’s speech in The Daily Telegraph: British commanders rarely if ever talked of death, and breaking that spectre broke a long military tradition. Perhaps Colonel Tim Collins’s high-profile trip into the limelight, complete with cheroot and Ray-bans, will also be the last for some time to come. "