"Prime Time" on RTE last night - nothing new here.

by M Clancy Fri Jan 09, 2004 13:18

The Primetime programme has lost a lot of credibility due to the fact it was clearly biased. Virtually all the air time was allocated to persons making allegations. Journalism needs to be more balanced in all situations.

I agree that there was nothing new in the programme. It is unfortunate that Brendan O’Brien wasted viewers time with old cases most of which we read about in the newspapers two or three years ago. How come he couldn’t get any new cases? Any exclusives? We were lead to believe by the RTE PR machine that this was an explosive ground breaking programme. Nothing of the sort.

Even Pat Kenny today said the reconstruction of the Tallaght tape was a farce! Kenny said how could any police force interview suspects in a nice ,polite quiet spoken manner? Barristers in court are allowed to shout and be like rothweillers to witnesses and nobody objects!

We also need to know why several interviews with individual Gardai were dropped from the programme by RTE (as stated on Morning Ireland today). Who were these Gardai? What did they have to say? Why did RTE exclude them? What else did Primetime exclude? Why were viewers not told this?
It also beggars belief that a Judge who said he had evidence about the crime of perjury right in front of his eyes, took no action whatsoever. Why did he not report the crime? Why did O’Brien not ask him that on the programme? Surely if he wanted those Guards dealt with he should have notified the DPP? Corrupt Guards will never be sacked if people like that Judge sit back and do nothing.

I am not saying the Guards should not to be scrutinised by the media – they most definitely should be, but Primetime have yet again wasted an opportunity to do a good job.

by Deirdre Clancy - Pitstop Ploughshares Fri Jan 09, 2004 14:10

I actually found the Primetime programme to be one of the fairest they have ever done. Far from being biased, it focused on the victims as much as the traditional authority figures, giving both a chance to air their opinion. This cannot be defined as bias, when a lot of RTE broadcasting otherwise focuses on the prosecution and Garda point of view on crime.

The cases they mentioned may have happened a while ago, but the point was that they were highlighting the fact that no disciplinary action had been taken against many of the Gardai concerned, something which is clearly problematic and wrong. It is also clearly contradictory, when several of the victims have received hefty compensation settlements. The programme also emphasised the pharse that is the investigative processes regarding complaints of assault against the Gardai. Very few other bodies I know of investigate themselves when complaints are made against them. Clearly, this has to change.

This was indeed a ground breaking programme, because finally the national broadcaster looked in a critical way at the processes of "law enforcement" in our country. Prime Time is overall one of RTE's better efforts, and deserves credit where credit is due.

As for Pat Kenny ridiculing the reconstruction of the Tallaght tape - is the previous poster saying that Kenny can never be wrong? How could the reconstruction have been a pharse when it was already available on video, meaning that RTE could not diverge verbally from what was on that video? What came out was absolutely appalling - does the previous poster think that interviewees should be regaled with stories of how they will be raped and sexually assaulted in prison? What an extraordinary suggestion!

Another interesting point the programme made was that it was mainly people in working class areas who had been subjected to these assaults. This is a very important and telling point, given the role that social deprivation already has in people ending up in the prison system.

As for not getting any new cases - there are plenty of new cases around. I know a couple of people who've been assaulted myself. However, no TV programme is going to risk delving into new cases of assault that are not yet in front of the courts, for fear of prejudicing the cases. They have legal advice against doing things like this, so the reason for this is obvious to all with half a brain.

I would be the first to admit that the guards do a very difficult job. I have argued on Indymedia before against the childish and dehumanising "guards are pigs" mentality, and I think that activists should think twice about this type of kneejerk thinking. No one profession should be stereotyped in a blanket way, and during my own interrogation and arrest, I met guards with integrity and guards who I didn't particularly like in terms of how they wielded their powers (though this was merely verbal and not physical). Many guards are subjected to violence on the job (injuries that can affect them for life - I know this for a fact), and they often take risks that those working in office jobs don't take. However, like most jobs which have a modicum of power attached to them, you'll always get certain individuals who go into the job for the wrong reasons (it's the same with professions such as the prison officer, priesthood, medicine, psychiatry/pshyciatic nursing, teaching, management, etc., etc.). It's a small minority of guards who perpetrate this brutality, but that minority can do much damage to people, so I think it's great that RTE gave the victims of assault a voice, finally. It's been a long time coming, and it is a sign that we are maturing as a country that this programme was broadcast.

What was shown may not be news to the activist community or to the homeless people who are harrassed and kicked around, but it's a significant development that a mainstream current affairs programme like Prime Time has broadcast this material.

by iosaf the ipsiphi Fri Jan 09, 2004 14:35

An independent Police complaints system with full investigative powers in every seperate judicial state or state component.

Thus Ireland needs two.

For too long, the European Ministers of Justice have sought to treat the problems in our society by giving their respective Police Forces more powers, more equipment and less scrutiny.

It is very apparant that Police recruitment patterns in the European States has not reflected either ethnic or socio-economic diversity.
It is also unarguable that a "Police sub-culture" has developed. Our modern European Societies offer above average salaries excellent benefit packages and such to the professional Policeman or woman. Yet only a certain type have been drawn to teh job. That subculture has been linked throughout the European States with racism, sexism, and ultra right tendencies. The expanding international role of certain European Police forces offering temptations to such very undesirable elements. The borders of Europe are being policed by men and women in whose ranks are found racists and fascists as well as decent workers.
European Police forces are now stationed in countries as diverse as Iraq, Bosnia and some of Western Africa, they have clearly been selected as playing a role in contemporary Conflict Resolution, without proper discussion of the training being offered or the psychological profile needed to play such a role.

Bowing to the pressures of those corporations that sell the machinery of the urban state, European citizens now live part of their social existence under CCTV surveillance, and are subject to information collation if they engage in political activity. The police man or woman now consistently wears and thus internalises and projects an image of such fearsome intimidation that I hold little hope of "cheerful little lads and lassies" wanting to grow up and "be one of them". And have these billions of Euros helped?
The figures for violent acquisitive problem drug use related crime have not gone down.
Nor have the incidences of violence against women, or exploitation of children.


If the Police "come" from our communities, then why do they in the 21st century seem so far? If the police "serve" our communities then why do they appear "immune" on so many cases of unwarrented violence against those who were only exercising their civil rights to protest?

by Lone gunman Fri Jan 09, 2004 14:49

Nothing very much new. Primetime as usual didnt do the job too deeply.Why wasnt Abbeylara mentioned?the worst sort of "killer cop"mentality was displayed there. The SB boys are never mentioned either.All old hat news. It is however to be expected that sooner or later you will get bad cops in any force.it exists in any police force.
Give somone a badge and a gun and the right to authority to rule your life and you have given them ultimate power over you and your life.
Cops are however human,cut them they bleed red as well.So it is to be expected if you are dealing with scumbags of all sorts all day,you might loose the rag as well.
good book on this is
Killer cops,a study in LEO corruption
or simply COPS,their story in their words.
gives the other sides of the story.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Fri Jan 09, 2004 16:12

Mr Clancy: The Primetime programme has lost a lot of credibility due to the fact it was clearly biased. Virtually all the air time was allocated to persons making allegations. Journalism needs to be more balanced in all situations.

Me: ALL media is biased /ALL reporting is biased - how can it not be?
– This concern with balance etc – “balanced” from who’s perspective?
– There is no unbiased reporting
– The most honest reporting, at least, states it’s bias first

(This would be a good laugh actually - this is Brendan O Brien of RTE reporting under the restrictions of the broadcasting act, my own personal political biases which are (x,y,z), what my editor told me I got get away wiith, the liable act, RTEs major advertisers including....etc)

That having been said the programme repeatedly (and incorrectly in my view) went out of its way to say that the majority of guards were excellent (like fuck!). they obviously were aiming for what they regarded as "balance"

– They also continuously (after each case) referred back to a garda representative who absolutely useless but that’s hardly primetime or RTE’s fault !

The power and attitude of the ombudsman up North was one of the few encouraging things in it - 100 full time staff, power to make arrests, no warning raids, cops never allowed to investigate them selves - more of that sort of thing

Conor

by Mags Fri Jan 09, 2004 17:04

I thought that copper with the tash who was trying to put their point of view was great :)

but as Conor said every time the reporter gave details of a case and interviewed the people assaulted he then went to the copper for a comment. The fact that the copper was either a) too thick and arrogant, or b) genuinely badly briefed on the lies to tell, is hardly RTE's fault.

However it could be that it did not register with people that this balance was being implemented, ordinary people speaking on TV are more noticeable than the standard talking heads and authority figures we normally see so people can mentally switch off when they appear.

Also the programme both started and ended with nice pics from Templemore and a little voiceover homily about how great the Guards are.

It should also be pointed out that at almost no mention was made of the years of harassment of Republicans, and people on here have barely touched on it either. It is the repressive laws and abuse, court fit-ups, etc meted out to Republicans over the years which have provided the Guards with the invulnerability they are now using against anyone who looks crossways at them. There was slight comment on the abuse of working class people, namely three young lads who were charged with assault after the cops had attacked them. But the main cases highlighted laid great stress on the fact that the people attacked were graduates of various colleges. The suspicion arises that it was because of this factor, and the TD and the Judge's comments, that RTE bothered at all. After all the Guards are not supposed to attack 'people like us'.

by P J Stone - GRA Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:05

Primetime is famous for it's anarchist anti-state bias, and this was clearly a hatchet job on the gardai.

by Tim Fri Jan 09, 2004 19:07

I was surprised to see it, but I thought it was fair and balanced.

I was glad to see Indymedia's RTS footage being used. You could clearly see Garda Corcoran scanning for targets and beating people while Inspector Keenan stood by in silence.
And of course I recall PJ Stone on the Late Late making lame statements following the May Day "baton-fest".
Some of the audience of course immediately sided with the Gardai regardless.

RTE went out of its way to remind us that the Gardai have a hard job, like dealing with criminal gangs, and the weekend drink fuelled violence.
Imagine a man in court charged with assaulting a stranger, trying to excuse himself by saying that he gets harrassed by other people?
So why should the Asst. Commissioner expect us to be satisfied with an admission that sometimes some Gardai make mistakes?
Mistakes are one thing, corrective measures are another thing.

I was assaulted by a uniformed Garda in Cork while taking a photograph of Henry Kissinger getting out of his car (I was standing still on the grass with both hands on my camera) the Garda didn't wear his number and didn't give his name, so I couldn't even make a complaint.
I don't know if the Garda was just freaked out by the angry crowd shouting at Kissinger or if he is generally heavy handed.

Of course, along with the other peace campers we got harrassed by the Gardai at Shannon too, but it was nothing like what the Walsh sisters or Christian Coates endured.

The Asst Commissioner Nacie Rice, was either missing the point or avoiding it when he said that the Gardai have apologised to the Walsh sisters. The people who assaulted them are still walking around in Garda uniforms. The 'internal investigation' didn't even seek statements from the victims, as one would expect in any other case of assault.

It's a pity PJ Stone and the GRA are just putting the heads in the sand about this.
I believe that the majority of Gardai do a hard and fairly thankless job.
Some of them risked their lives last year, including a cadet who jumped into a river to save a stranger.
Some of them lost their lives, like the two Gardai killed by joyriders. (and the govt won't fork out for re-inforced patrol cars)
It's not good enough to emphasise the good Gardai and ignore the bad ones.
Resorting to PR spin when ever a corrupt Garda brutalises somebody or stitches them up is counterproductive.

The bullies, the liars, and the others who protect them are doing the Garda Siochana no favours whatsoever.
Anyone, in any job, if they see repeated misbehaviour go unpunished, will be more likely to break the rules themselves.
If I can make 'progress' by throwing my weight around, or cutting corners, then why not?
Of course this affects public perception and trust of the Gardai, at a time when they need it most.

It's not unreasonable to expect a few corrupt cops, bribe takers, thugs, planters of evidence in a force of 12,000.
Like Deirdre pointed out, any large group will have its troublemakers and its heroes.
What is obvious is that not enough is being done to root them out.
Without accountability, what starts off as a few rotten apples, can become an accepted practice, -and in some stations - a culture.

Until there is proper accountability to accompany the power the 'rotten apples' argument won't have any credence.
Only when the Gardai, Judges, Politicians etc are held to the same standards as the ordinary citizen will the problem be sorted out.
It was good to see the judge recognised that the Judges and others need oversight as well.

The GRA should stop stonewalling and start
dealing with this.
They can't bask in the good publicity and then curse the bad.
Behind the uniform they're flesh and blood like everyone else and should be rewarded or punished accordingly.

by think of Grainne Ni Mhaoil - lovely little pirate. Fri Jan 09, 2004 22:47

the links to RTE follow up today:
Kathleen McMahon canvassed opinion on the streets of Dublin this
morning
28k - http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0109/newsatone/news1pm2a.smil
Pat Rabbitte, Labour party leader, says we need an ombudsman on the
Northern Ireland model
28k - http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0109/newsatone/news1pm2b.smil

In addition, all newsgroups in both English and Irish (gaeilge) have seen some reaction.
Now Deputy Pat, the NI ombudsman model might not be the best one to apply to the Irish Republic, and like there _are_ lots of options.
It might be timely to start looking at how other states have dealt with similar problems, rather than just trying to copy the methods of hiding the shite under the carpet which normally appeal to the Irish leadership so much.
(must have been their parents. Yes quite I blame the parents).

by ec Sat Jan 10, 2004 16:13

.

by pat c Tue Jan 13, 2004 19:54

This might help the porkers win back some respect. Worth a try lads. You could get a tache allowance as well.

"Indian police given moustache pay

Police in a district in India's Madhya Pradesh state are being paid to grow moustaches because bosses believe it makes them command more respect.

Ten policemen in the northern state are already receiving 30 rupees (66 US cents) every month for their efforts. "

More at

by jon doe Sat Feb 07, 2004 21:28

London police have no difficulty recognising their colleagues. Two policemen in London have been charged with rape. Mark Witcher, aged 29, and Andrew Lang, 30, were charged at Aldershot Magistrates' Court with the rape of a 23 year-old woman. They were suspended two weeks ago and arrested last Thursday.
They had been reported by some of their own colleagues, which would be very unlikely to happen in our own police force, the 'Garda Siochana'.