And Again Israel and Again Israel

by kokomero Thu Jan 08, 2004 19:54

Avi will regale us with tales of how 18,000 Ethopian Jews are being "saved" by resettling them in Israel.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0108/mideast.html

No doubt they will face an uncertain future as second-class citizens in their new home, and will be sent as cannon-fodder to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank and Gaza.

by avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:06

Ask Dr. Road Map why the PA didn't meet its primary initial obligation under it which was to stop terrorist murders of Israelis. This is what caused it to fail, as Israel met all its first stage obligations.

by Jim Monaghan Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:31

All the road map allows is a glorified bantusan and the Sharon government would not even give that. The role of the PA under this map and Oslo is to act as a police force protecting the Israeli state from the angry , dispossessed Palestinian masses.
A one state solution would give a Palestinian majority. Even in the confines of the original Israeli state there would be a Palestinian majority in 10/20 years and now if the right of return existed.
Sharon hopes to break and totally demoralise the Palestiniian people and make a "peace" with a broken PA leadership.
At this stage the PA is practically broken and lacks the means to either resist effectively the Israelis or perform the work of a Vichy type regime.
The acts of resistance deplored selectively by Ari and other Israeli apologists should be seen in the context of the desperation of a supra oppressed people abandoned and maybe in despair. The guilty ones are those who dispossessed them and drove them from their homes.I find it hard to blame them for lashing out at their oppressors even if I disagree with their tactics, leadership and startegy.
The crusader states lasted for a long time but were eventually eliminated.
If the Palestinian people were given justice even after all that has happened there might be a possibility of a democratic sate with equality and respect for all it's diverse population. The alternative is oppression for as long as there is a Palestinian people no matter how downtrodden. The current victors are left with a vista of constant security needs and reliance on American aid to pay for it. A real peace with justice (predicated on a right of return of people and return of property) might allow a vista where endless oppression might be a thing of the past.

by Avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:45

The Palestinians would have received a perfectly viable state under the Road Map, which is why Dr. Road Map Nabil Shaah was in favour of it.

The Arabs are just so greedy: as if they don't have enough land already, they want to push the Jews out. Look at the size of all the Arab territory in the Middle East!

A unitary state is a total non-starter. The Arabs would be a majority within ten years, so it's just yet another way of trying ot destroy our country. In any event, Israelis would never agree to it, and even more so after the Arabs have been committing all these suicide atrocities against us.

by Aaron S Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:42

Israeli historian Benny Morris has finally recognized that the nascent Israeli state did, in fact, deliberately and violently expel the bulk of the Palestinian Arab population -- something he had denied in his earlier work. But he has also decided that it was a good thing to do, and even that it should have been done more thoroughly!

For the Ha'aretz interview with Morris and, I hope, a rather interesting discussion of same, click on this URL:

by avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 13:39

I agree with him. What's your point?

I mean, isn't it better to separate two hostile populations by force rather than leave them to murder each other? Isn't that what happened in India and Pakistan at about the same time?

by the cleanser Fri Jan 09, 2004 16:48

Exactly what Adolf was trying to do in Europe as well, but of course he was not quite as successful as you chaps ....

by avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:27

The Jews posed no threat to the Germans, nor do they pose any threat to the Arabs.

by Me Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:33

"The Jews posed no threat to the Germans, nor do they pose any threat to the Arabs."

But Israel surely does.

by kokomero Fri Jan 09, 2004 19:04

leaving Kashmir (muslim) under the control of India has led to decades of strife and a full-blown nuclear arms race.

Whereas there is a balance in the Indian sub-continent the Israeli terror state is not content with having won the nuclear arms race against their Arab neighbours but continues to build more and more when the Iranians, Iraqis and Lybians are giving up theirs.

The simple reason is Israel wants it's own nuclear umbrella to squash all resistance to its ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza and mass murder and persecution of Palestinians.

There is only one aggressor in this picture and its Israel!

The Palestinians are simply reacting by fighting back against oppression as the Jews did in the Warsaw ghetto!

Boycott Israel until they go back to their pre-1967 borders!

by avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 19:29

In reality, Israel has no designs on any sovereign Arab country. If it did, it would never have returned territory conquered in wars that it didn't have to.

Israel is a democracy. The Arab world, including the Palestinian authority, is not. Do you understand what that means? It means that people like Indymedia people (i.e. those whose views differ from the government-decreed norm) are arrested, tortured or killed; and that ethnic minorities, such as Jews, are persecuted.

The Arabs hate the Jews, not least because they are a persecuted people that escaped the subjugation and slavery to which the Arabs subjected them for centuries.; not least also because their developed state is a success in a way that no Arab country is, and a historical comparison between the relative achievements of the two peoples is deeply shaming to them.

by the cleanser Fri Jan 09, 2004 19:43

Quite right Avi ....

However, let's not forget that the state of Israel, a veritable regional mini-superpower armed to the teeth with WMD, would be a lot less developed if it weren't for all those tasty dollars milked from the USA ....

by avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 19:53

The Arabs have a lot, lot more of these than Israel ever did, and they just squandered them.

by the cleanser Fri Jan 09, 2004 20:09

Whereas the Israelis have wisely invested them in the finest military hardware money can buy ...... not to mention the nuclear arsenal ....

by kokomero Fri Jan 09, 2004 20:18

In reality, Israel has no designs on any sovereign Arab country. If it did, it would never have returned territory conquered in wars that it didn't have to.

>> You do have to return the West Bank and a series of UN resolutions starting from 242 will eventually force you to!

Israel is a democracy.

>> Democracies do not practice apartheid, assassination, ethnic cleansing and torture or make a virtue of it!

The Arab world, including the Palestinian authority, is not. Do you understand what that means? It means that people like Indymedia people (i.e. those whose views differ from the government-decreed norm) are arrested, tortured or killed; and that ethnic minorities, such as Jews, are persecuted.

>> You mean just like Palestinians are murdered, tortured and dissappeared, and persecuted by the Israelis?

As for Israel being such a "success" it's economy has been crippled by the load of the military and would collapse altogether were it not for the American bail-outs!

Finally stop referring to the "Arabs" as if they were one people ... they're not!

It makes as much sense as calling the Irish, English, Scots and Welsh the same because they share a language and live in the same corner of the planet and only demonstrates that you have no understanding of your neighbours!

by avi H. Fri Jan 09, 2004 20:49

about the Middle East, which is NOTHING. Actually, the Arabs are one people, although they are divided tribally throughout the Middle East. However, there are many Middle Eastern peoples they have oppressed - the Berbers, Bedouin, Kurds, Circassians, Jews, etc. etc. Even the Palestinians are not a separate people and have no separate history or existence as 'Palestinians' before 1967. In the 1930s, for example, the term 'Palestinian' meant a Jew.

by your little pirate dude. Fri Jan 09, 2004 22:41

Bertie says (*)

The Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ireland, Brian Cowen TD, today held talks with the Palestinian Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dr Nabil Shaath. Dr Shaath was in Dublin, as part of his European Regional tour, to discuss developments in the Middle East Peace Process.

The Minister and Dr Shaath discussed the current difficulties facing the Road Map, the attempts to restore the Palestinian militants' ceasefire, the EU concerns over the continued construction of the Israeli security wall, the expansion of the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Territories and the Minister's visit to Israel and Egypt next week.

Following the meeting the Minister stated:

'I am going to the region next week and it is very important that I meet with the Palestinian Foreign Minister as we engage again in the consultative process with all the parties, both as a responsibility as a member of the Quartet group, where my job as Presidency is to see the implementation of the Road Map as quickly as possible, and to ensure that the international community takes up its responsibility to assist the parties in trying to advance these issues as a matter of urgency.

Also, I indicated to Nabil that we will remain in constant touch in this semester, throughout our Presidency… We are looking to see what way we can encourage movement so that we can try and resolve the beginnings of the implementation of the Road Map…

Inaction is simply not an option…It is important that we work politically and diplomatically with the parties…I am going to Israel next week and will talk with the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister.

We have seen an escalation … on all sides. It is imperative, as democratic politicians, that we confront these issues with the seriousness and united purpose that is required.'.

During the course of his visit Dr Shaath was welcomed to Dublin by the Taoiseach, Mr Bertie Ahern TD. At Leinster House he met with Dr Michael Woods TD, Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and with Senator Mary O'Rourke, Leader of Seanad Eireann. In the afternoon Dr Shaath had the opportunity to meet with the Parliamentary Friend of Palestine.
ENDS

(*) ="my taoiseach & the supreme little rascal of Ireland to whom I give sloppy hugs, in this honeymoon period before getting really serious on exactly how much of the 25% of Global GDP shared by 450,000,000 other European hopefuls you and your mates ripped off from us"

by David C. Fri Jan 09, 2004 23:09

The Avi/Likudnik position that a unitary state is a total non-starter for demographic reasons, when combined with their violent opposition to a viable 2-state solution, shows that the end game for Israel's leaders is the extermination or ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people from their own land. That is an inevitable conclusion of Israel's position, just as the holocaust was the inevitable conclusion of the Nazi position in the mid 30's. This is often spoken openly by senior Israeli politicians - as occured just a few days ago.

Avi - the soul of you and your people (i.e. Likudniks, not jews) is with the Nazis.


Some facts on the above discussion:

The Road map, like the Wye River accords offered to Arafat, is a deliberately vague and fuzzy set of possiblties intended to drag out the clock some more so that Israel can build or consolodate more 'facts on the ground'. No maps. No promises. Nothing real. In general Israel wants a vague, drawn-out process, while the palestinians want a pragmatic, detailed process. This is why the Likudniks hate the Geneva Accords so much. Israel wants land much, much more than security - this is central to understanding the conflict.

Israel is *not* a democracy, because 4 million people under occupation can't vote in Israeli elections. There are also many ways in which arab Israeli's are prohibited from participating in politics. It is a place in which religious/racial discrimination is build into its political structure.

Avi's argument that "arabs have lots of land so why can't we steal some" makes as much sense as "israeli's have lots of money so why can't I have Avi's". Avi - have you ever looked honestly at the roots of your arguments? Don't you feel an irritating itch from your rational or moral mind?

Israel is the South Africa of our time - evil, defensive and with a limited future under its current polocies. The rise of the Internet, global TV, international travel, etc has eroded Israel's ability to 'manage' its image, and the world now understands the truth about what is happening. And that is bad news for you and yours, Avi...

by avi H. Sun Jan 11, 2004 20:50

That just shows your purile reductionism: Israel is a square peg, your brain is a round hole.

by David C. Sun Jan 11, 2004 23:30

(BTW, 'Purile' describes your response nicely...)

When the world woke up to what was happening in aparthied South Africa in the 1980's the result was swift and certain:

-The nation became despised the world over.
- It's citizens became ashamed of their citizenship. Many sought to leave.
- Its economy shrank steadily under formal and informal boycotts.
- Its politicians, cultural figures, sporting figures, etc were met with protests and opposition wherever they went, and rapidly learned to stay at home.
- Its internal opposition figures were revered and supported internationaly.
- It was diplomatically rejected by civilized governments throughout the world and was left with a shrinking circle of allies drawn from fellow-pariah nations.
- etc. etc.
Sound familiar?

Do you remember that famous terrorist, Nelson Mandela? Whatever happened to him? Did the racist white South Africans succeed in bring security to their country by defeating the terrorist ANC?

Sick, twisted, evil little facist Israel will, with certainty, shrivel and die. A decent, tolerent, hopeful, secure and prospersous Israel will rise from its ashes.

by kokomero Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:42

If there is anybody guilty of purile reductionism it is Avi. It is a central tenet of expansionist Zionism that the Arabs are "one" people (against Israel), which they are quite obviously not.

To admit that the Arabs are many peoples/states (several of which have independently reconciled with Israel or at least have ceased hostilities) would be to admit that there is no conspiracy against Israel and would thus remove the rationale for Israels expansionism, paranoia, nuclear deterence etc.

Israel will use any and all means to brainwash the ignorant into believing this hogwash, some of them incredibly sophisticated such as the Trojan devices (hidden transmitters planted deep inside Lybia which relayed false "terrorist" transmissions destined for interception by US NSA spy-ships and satellites) used to create a pretext for the US bombing of Lybia in 1986
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-09/25/content_267303.htm.

As such any such intercepts or "chatter", which often form the basis for US and American action, from mobile phones, radio transmissions or the internet relating to Arab states and/or terrorism is highly suspect and should be treated with extreme caution.

A commercial spin-off from Israels spying activities (many Xacct employees come from an elite Israeli army communications and espionage unit) called http://www.xacct.com ensures that they could even be watching you in Ireland http://www.xacct.com/NEWS/PR/xacct_release_030915.htm

"Israel-based Xacct Technologies has won numerous awards during the last
three years for its intelligent business infrastructure platform and
data gathering technologies. For example, Red Herring has named it one
of the "Top 50 Companies Most Likely to Change the World."

A closer look at Xacct's technology reveals some startling implications
and opportunities for abuse. Promoted as a comprehensive, real-time data
collection, correlation, aggregation and account provisioning solution,
Xacct's technology uses "smart agents" to record information and
transmit data to a central event manager, storing the usage data in a
commercial database. Direct access to servers is not required, and Xacct
claims that more data often can be gathered by interrogating traffic
near the device than what the device itself provides.

Xacct's carrier-class technology is deployed as a business
infrastructure solution that provides multisource, multilayer data
collection, as a convergent software platform that captures and
transforms raw network data, such as that from GPRS, UMTS and IP
networks, into actionable business and intelligence information. Because
protocols such as GPRS are always on, it's possible for a carrier to
offer information back to a user based on his or her location and
previous behavior. Going a step farther, Xacct can collect and process
this data in real time, combining behavioral events with positional
events. With the upcoming penetration of third-generation wireless
standards, this presents some interesting legal perspectives as to how
the information should or should not be used."

by kokomero Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:52

which you seem (pretend) to know very little about, Avi.

The Ottoman Turks, NOT the Arabs, ruled over the modern middle-east for 400 years from 1517-1917 so if you have an issue with oppression you should take it up with them and their British successors 1917-1948, not the Saudis, Palestinians, Syrians etc.!

On the basis of 400 years of Turkish oppression why is Israel so friendly with Turkey?

by David C. Mon Jan 12, 2004 17:37

2/3 of the population of the EU and probably 3/3 of the population of the rest of the world (non-US ) think that Israel is a facist state that is a serious danger to world peace. I'd say your propaganda has run its course, Avi. Maybe its time for you likudniks to start thinking of a different approach?

(Although, on the other hand, imagine what Israel's image would be like if they *didn't *spend $800 million.yr on propaganda! Ha!)