What is the Irish Secret Service?

by Irish SS Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:30

...the only part of "what is the Secret Service? Where is it? What does it do? Who's in it?" that I know something of is the where. A senior civil servant once told me that there IS a section in the Dept. of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (contrary to what McDowell said...defys logic to have a budget for something that doesn't exist...but its a secret!) but that even people working within the department know very little other than its existence (back to the secret thing again). A comment by Mr R Quinn once went similiar to this: if you ask someone in the Dept. of Justice, Equality and Law Reform for the time they'll have to get back to you once they've figured such a query passes various checklists. McDowell runs a tight ship you know!

by Hush Puppy Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:37

Why would they know anything about a Secret Service in their own department, considering that they don't know much about justice, equality or genuine law reform?

by culture vulture - %-) Tue Dec 02, 2003 13:16

To properly serve the international image of the Irish Secret Service? Will Minister Mc D. approve a English type to play the Irish Secret Service agent as a thank you for all the Pierce Brosnan years?
And when some stage down the line the Irish secret service agents start getting gunned down in Islamic countries will Mr Ahern ask why were they stationed there? And will Irish troops be photographed the next day handing out leaflets asking the "Iraqi/Iranian/Syrian/Korean¿?" people to help catch the culprits who have undemined democracy by killing spies in thier occupied country?
Or will it just be phone tapping?

Do good phone tapping the Irish, great stuff though they could probably just pay the British/US for the juiciest bits.

by lone gunman Tue Dec 02, 2003 13:23

to a secret service we have is G2 Irish army intelligence.There is no "sercet service" per se. it is usually a conglomeration of various depts of the Gardai and Army tasked to a specific mission.

G2 is mostly tasked with gathering intelligence on subversive groups and individuals likely to be a threat to the state. [that now includes the Irish anti war movement and associated munchkins!]
They are VERY respected by the big players Ie MI6,CIA,Mossad,KGB,BND, BOSS etc. Why?cos all these groups of spooks have played here in Ireland over the years and run foul or cooperated with our local boys.
Garda SB and some of its "quiter" depts then make up the remainder of the irish secret service.
might explain the smallish amount of money [by govt intelligence agencies]being used by these groups

by Vic Tue Dec 02, 2003 13:48 vic at vodafone dot ie

I think its fair to say that the present government (and indeed some of its predecessors) falls into the category of Secret Service after years of denials and blatant lies. Although Inspector Clouseau would be a far more fitting comparison than James Bond.

by Eoin Dubsky Tue Dec 02, 2003 14:13

State funding for "Secret Service" has been discussed on Indymedia before:
1. "Ireland's 'Secret Service' Boom"
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=45130

2. "Huge Increase on 'Secret Service' in Ireland"
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=17950

When I put it to an Irish Times journalist last year that there was a story here, they parroted the Party Line ("Secret Service" was the only item in last year's Estimates to get a large hike, 85%). They said that there was nothing strange about it, nothing worth investigating. Surely "Secret Service" had been neglected in previous years, was only a tiny amount of money, and so 85% of very little wasn't important enough for Ireland's Newspaper of Record.

by a guy called satan Tue Dec 02, 2003 14:42

Irish military intelligence might well be held in high esteem by M16 seeing as , for all intents and purposes , M16 has been running them for the last 20 years.

by Janus Tue Dec 02, 2003 15:06

G2 is very much the poor relation of the Branch and the Gardai who were given primacy in tackling subversion, of whatever political stripe, well back in the 70s. Garda primacy has been jealously guarded by the boys in blue from any attempt on the side of G2 to encroach on it and they have consistently used the Arms Trial and thefts, alleged or real, of Free State weapons by militant republicans.

The Branch, along with other more secretive elements of the Gardai surveillance units, are the people dealing with suubversives. G2 don't get much of a look in and while they might be respected as Intelligence officers in a conventional military sense from their actions in the Leb and elsewhere, they're not seen as significant in a domestic sense.

by Eoin Dubsky Tue Dec 02, 2003 15:21

I have a feeling that the money is used for stuff like echelon, which Ireland joined in 2000 according to The Phoenix mag (http://www.politrix.org/foia/echelon/echelon-ie.htm). G2 and the Special Branch (the armed goons who guard US warplanes at Shannon Airport while the pirates go for a nap in nearby hotels) are too well known surely to have such a secretive budget. The Minister could have just said that the money is for them, but he didn't.

by inspector clouseau Tue Dec 02, 2003 20:40

There is a similar sort of "discretionary fund" arrangement in France (though probably a bit more lavish budget) ... it was in the news a few years ago .... probably similar arrangements in most other "democratic" countries ... all no doubt put to good use .....


"Secret Funds for Defense
Nathalie Raulin
The French Prime Minister controls a secret discretionary fund that has grown to 395 million francs in 1998. In 1995 a judge investigating the Republican party discovered a coffer of 2.4 million francs in denominations of 500 francs. Each year the parliament votes for the funds, without discussing them in detail.

Some of the funds are used to finance more or less acknowledge operations, such as actions against the Rainbow Warrior in 1985 or telephone tapping devices. Because the funds are under the discretionary control of the Prime Minister, their use is not controlled by the Parliament. Deputies who submit written inquiries about the use of the funds never receive a response. Governments might be tempted to use the funds for their political allies, but ethical guidelines forbid the use of funds to help political parties. A prime minister who is found to use the funds for partisan political purposes risks up to a year in prison.

But the Matignon has found a way around the curiosity of judges: defense secrets. In 1995 the Juppe government declare the funds to be a defense secret, and the investigation was halted.

Now the judges have struck back, seizing the right to put investigations before a consultative commission that can rule whether or not funds are indeed being used for secret defense purposes. "

Libération 9 August 1998


http://www.ttc.org/fed/s980809.htm

by inspector clouseau Tue Dec 02, 2003 20:54

The attached link is to an OECD document comapring secret funding and auditing practices in some European states (the big boys) ... the Oirish system is probably a sort of a copy of the British one ... or maybe it has become more "European" as a result of EU membership .....

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/nispacee/unpan006708.pdf

by lone gunman Tue Dec 02, 2003 21:24

To the Echelon story.[Proably knocked out in an evil CIA plot].
Echelon.Well we proably loaned them some radio or microwave masts somwhere. dont think we would have the dosh to throw it into such a programme,especially since the Brits have been listening into us via GCHQ in Cheltenham for the last 15plus years.And with their new HQ in the "donut"where they have been listening to near enough everyone.We really are small fry in the Echelon programme

You would be hard pressed to name where even G2 has its HQ.No they dont gaurd anything,they could have been the nice old fellow /woman who chatted to you about your views on a demo,etc.

Pirates in Shannon?Men with wooden legs,hooks for hands,cutlasses, eye patches and talking parrotts? Lads saying "Arrr Jim lad.There be plenty O gold in me sea chest."
Either the anti war lobby is going to give us a Xmas pantomine on Dec 6th or Eoin is smoking some VERY potent recreational vegtable matter

by techn9ne - Politrix dot Org Wed Dec 03, 2003 00:07 fsck at off dot org

IRISH AGENCIES
The Irish Intelligence Services are comprised of the following:

Two dedicated units are within the Irish Defence Forces - Óglaigh na h-Éireann.

1. The G-2 Military Intelligence Branch of the Irish Defence Forces Military Intelligence. The most secretive unit, it is known to have a liaison relationship with Britain's SIS and MI5 and the United States' FBI and CIA.

2. The Army Ranger Wing. This Unit is officially designated 'Sciathán Fianóglach an Airm'. The missions of this unit are multiple, including long range patrolling, training of other units, VIP security, anti-hijacking, hostage rescue, and counterterrorism (CT). These duties, specifically as they related to CT, are considered supplemental to Ireland's primary response unit, the Garda Siochana.

An Garda Siochana. This is Ireland's National Police Service which has primary responsibility for law and order, including the protection of the internal security of the State.

The Deputy Commissioner of Operations is responsible for the following units:

Special Services

Security & Intelligence

Special Branch C3 Section (dealing with terrorism and subversion)



Irish Defense Force
Army Ranger Wing

Within the Irish Defense Force there is a unit known as "Cciathan Fhiannoglaigh an Airm" or by the english translation as the Irish Defense Forces' Army Ranger Wing. Formed in 1980 from Ranger-trained Irish Defense Force personnel, the Irish Army Ranger Wing (ARW) is the Republic of Ireland's military special operations, and counter-terrorist (CT) force. The unit is based at Curragh Camp, in County Kildare.

Between 1968 and 1971 a small group of Irish military personnel were selected to attend US Army Ranger training, at Ft. Benning, GA. The group was drawn from senior NCO's, and officers of all branches of the Irish armed forces. Upon their successful completion of training, the group would be used to establish a similar training program in Ireland.

This group formed the initial training cadre at the Irish Ranger school at Curragh Camp. The training course is open to all Irish military personnel. Personnel who successfully complete the demanding course are awarded a black and gold "Fianoglach" , or Ranger tab.

With terrorism on the rise, the Irish government felt that it would be prudent to have members of the military receive more specialized training. As a result several members of the Irish Army Ranger training program received CT training from the RNLMC.

After conducting a review of international hostage rescue teams/counter terrorism (HRT/ CT) units, the Irish government directed the formation of a new military special operations force. The force was to be composed of 100-150 Ranger qualified personnel, and would operate under the direct control of the Irish Army Chief of Staff. The initial group of volunteers were selected from serving Ranger qualified members of the Irish Defense Forces.

Volunteers are required to pass a grueling four week selection course. Survivors of the selection course then advance to the six month long basic skills course. The course provides instruction in combat medicine; weapons and explosive handling; hostage rescue training and tactics; CQB and precision shooting: survival training; mountaineering; Long Range Patrolling; and a basic parachute course.

Upon completion of initial training the Rangers may progress on to more specialized training courses conducted by the unit and other services. Rangers can receive instruction in HAHO and HALO operations; EOD; fast roping and rappelling; a combat diver course including training in small boat handling, and amphibious operations; and a sniper course , with approximately half the unit qualifying as snipers.

The Rangers are tasked with conducting several missions. There more conventional military tasks include: conducting raids, ambushes and sabotage operations; conducting Long Range Recon Patrols in support of conventional units; intelligence gathering; VIP protection; capture of key enemy personnel; counter insurgency operations. The Rangers are also tasked with conducting CT operations in support if Irish law enforcement organizations.

The ARW has at its disposal a large amount of modern technology to help it execute its designated missions. Weapons available to its personnel include Sig P-226 pistols, HK MP-5 Series submachine guns, Remington 870 shotguns, HK SG1 rifles, and Accuracy International (AI) A1 96 sniper rifles.

by JMcK Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:16

The fact that these state agencies, organisations, loose associations or gangs, as we may call them, are at the service of Britain and the US is both beyond dispute and dispicable. What traitors!

Have they ever "saved the state from attack ? No, not once!

And who are they "targeting" ,or rather intimidating ,now? Muslims, anti-war protestors and generally anyone who expresses a view that is at odds with the general sense of fascism and global rape that their masters espouse, that's who.

As "gunman" says, the "secret service", is a loose association of Gardai, business people, Defence forces, politicians, civil servants and generally anyone else who can be if use in their attempt to play "Big Brother".

Who are they? What sort of person persecutes their fellow citizens for a foreign power? Ones who have been bred and conditioned into a certain mindset and who shares a complete apathy for the mass suffering of others . Those who learned the programme well and have been rewarded, like their ancestors, with the same position in society - Judas!

People like the Guinness Lady who died recently. From an early age she was trusted to carry messages from "No 10" to her cousins at MI5/6 and even into Buckingham palace without appointment or fuss. Just a young lady nobody would notice carrying the will of the emperor in secret.

When she came to Ireland she was appointed a Senator so that whe could as easily move in and out of our Government buildings with British and US orders and to supervise the Governance of the Irish people. She could strole into the British Embassy , before it was burned, and have tea with the Embassador and drop into the Mount Clare to have a chat with the Garda Comissioner, just like that, in a few brief minutes, and what would Mick or Mary in Manorhamilton or Monkstown know about it?

In August 1986 the Director of Irish Army Intelligence, Colonel Desmond Swan, detalied Garda links with British Army personnel. Detective Garda John McCoy, stationed at Monaghan Garda Station was an MI5 agent codenamed "Badger" for years and was know to have been actively recruiting agents for British/Irish intelligence around the time the FRU and the British Government carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and later. He tried in the company of a British agent to recruit an army Commandant from the EOD at his home in Castleknock and claimed to have the authority of his superiors. Garda Commissioner Edmund Garvey was later to help cover up British and Irish Government/Intel involvement in the mass murders. The purpose? To bring in Section 30 offences against the state act in the wake of the public outcry !

Sound familiar? Like the Omagh bombing ? As yet Garda Headquarters have not explained why they did not pass on tip offs to the RUC that could have prevented Omagh.

Nothing changed when the British left this part of the island. They just change flags. The Church of Ireland stopped bossing us around and the Catholic Church took it's place and ran amok.

Whoever said , " I dream of an Ireland of frugal values where material wealth is valued only as a means for good living", would surely find themselves under surveillance today. But in face of the Church calling him a Commie, De Valera backed down on such a vision and kissed the Archbishops rings. No more settling down in the evening after a fair days work to cast our minds to things "artistic and spiritual" or going for a local community dance at the crossroads with the comely maidens! Not much profit for the bosses in that. I hope they are proud if the country they have created or rather the country whose development thay have stiffled.

by Glen Wed Dec 03, 2003 13:20

Around the time that bit of news broke, the story doing the rounds was that the "secret service" money was supposedly the fund used by the gardai to bribe sources - a sort of expense account for less legitimate costs incurred.

by lone gunman Wed Dec 03, 2003 15:50

Deep breath.... Better?
NO the irish secret service is not in the service of theUS &GB.it has cooperated with them in dealing with an international terrorist problem revelant to their and our countries .[Called Northern Ireland.With its various hues of idiots and killers on both sides of the divide.]
No
they dont persecute their own for a foregin power.
Well.....maybe they take a great intrest in those who make themselves very obvious to them in their words and deeds[Hint Hint James!!]
Maybe they are intrested in seeing who is behind these So called "peace groups".lets not mention CND in the Eighties and its remarkable crew of East block "advisors."
No
Idont think the Irish secret service is at the stage of the Isreali "KIDON"[wrath of God] hit teams.So you can still sleep safley in your bed and mouth off James. Unlike of course some nice places that everyone seems to think were the Garden of Eden. like Iraq pre liberation, the former East blocks,Ghanistan,etc.
Post 9/11. The West finally woke up to how to fight the terrorism inflicted and in some cases self created.use their own tactics andmethods against the terrorists.
If that means spying on your own so be it.

The saying goes .Lie with the dog .Wake up with fleas[or bugs]. Get involved with nutcase groups,radical politics,terrorists or their supporters.Expect to be observed,watched,etc.Get over it ,and grow up.

by Douglas P Gunne - Rangers Motorbike School Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:07 Clonmel T C

Well done to Aengus O'Snodaigh for asking questions about the Irish S.S.

It appears they operate at present to intimidate and harass Muslims and political opponents using the state agencies at their disposal. This is unconstitutional and illegal and it's about time a stop was put to it and this secret police state. If indeed a real "threat" did exist, and not the pathetic lies they are spinning to try and make us live in fear of an "attack" , I suspect they would be useless.

Perhaps the IRA would be able to clean up the shop for the people of Ireland as they seem to have been a step or ten ahead of these bozos all through their war against Britain. See what I mean about useless?


The IRA lured a key British intelligence officer from his home in
England to Dublin in 1987 in a bid to identify the planners of the
Dublin and Monaghan bombings

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/99cov/SBP_Revealed:__How_IRA__publishers__lured_Holroyd_to_Dublin_


The Monaghan Dublin Bombings
by Joe O'Neill

http://www.g21.net/irish25.htm


Unprecedented cooperation developed between military, police and intelligence agencies from Britain and Ireland, and in particular between MI5 and Irish military intelligence (G2). For most of the war British intelligence pursued this joint strategy of covert activity and official collaboration, and MI5 and SIS shared responsibility for Ireland. However, there was a gradual shift of emphasis towards cooperation and it was eventually concluded that the MI5-G2 link could serve all Britain’s security needs.

http://www.frankcass.com/jnls/int_18-1.htm


http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/high_comm.htm


A British military intelligence officer who may have vital information about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings has taken up a new job in Whitehall. Colonel Peter Maynard was appointed to the hush-hush post of Head of Special Projects at the Ministry of Defence earlier this month.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2000/07/30/story291480.asp

by avi H. Thu Dec 04, 2003 15:58

One of the things that G2 has started to do of late is surveillance of the nascent muslim community in Ireland, on the premise that Al-Qaeda et al. is probably using it to hide in.

by rogue element Thu Dec 04, 2003 19:40

Hopefully they're keeping an eye on the Mossad spooks as well ....

by jabotinsky Thu Dec 04, 2003 19:58

Whatever can you be talking about .... ?

by jeff Fri Dec 05, 2003 15:37

Both Avi and some other chap stated this is happening on behalf of G2. How do they know? Source of information.

It seems on indymedia that (though this in no way refers to the moderators of this site!) whetether your a right winger like Avi or a leftie that foams at the mouth, you can write or state or declare something to be "fact" without backing it up.

This is acceptable if you are failed comedian Brendan O' Connor writing for the d4 grannies in the Sunday Indo, but indymedia deserves better...

Indymedia moderators, keep up the good work. You allow, despite your leftist credentials, all shades of opinion in. Indymedia's readers should at least try to be a little less lazy. Perhaps what you are sayiing is true, but c'mon, make an effort! :0)

The exception to the above is the HUMOROUS rant. This is the sorta craic I excell at (well, I think so anyway-any you remember my rant against reclaim the streets 2000?) Humour is very important for us all and while it is annoying when people do what I was just giving out about, a humorous qupi beats a Cuban soapy tit wank in Amsterdam's red light hands down!

(Woahhh...well...almost.. ;0O...ooohhhh yeahh...)

by copwatch Fri Dec 05, 2003 16:18

The secret service have been keeping an eye on the bin tax protesters especially some of the organisers. In West Dublin in the first couple of weeks there were on many occasions unmarked cop cars following bin trucks as well as in meeting places where people met prior to blocking trucks.

They are prob looking at this site too. If so I'd just liek to say, we are not scared of you. You are a shower of bastards that are too chicken to do the honourable thing and join a uniformed force. I can't wait until after the revolution when we know who you are, if i have my way you will all be taken out beaten and executed without mercy. You are nothing but filth

by jeff Sat Dec 06, 2003 14:47

...can't tar everyone with the same stick, boy. Besides, they are out of uniform because it pays more. Anyway, a detective is a detective, you do not know whether those guys are secret service or ordinary plainclothes Gardai. My point; more of the same. Next thing will be someone claiming they are actually lizards, a la David Icke...

by david icke Sat Dec 06, 2003 20:11

You are merely in a state of denial about them being lizards due to the heavy social conditioning to which you have been subjected .....

Open your eyes before it is too late ......

by the_syco Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:56

The G-2 Military Intelligence Branch or the The Army Ranger Wing.

by Cabhog Wed Mar 31, 2004 21:50

It ahs absolutely nothing to do with G-2 or any other Army-Gardai liasion office, or actualy anything to do with intelliegence. It is money used for two puroposes.
1) To cover informers expenses (if you followed the McKevitt trial, you'll see the Gardai are incredibly stingy with this money).

2. To cover the post trial expenses of informers whom it is beleived lives are under threat e.g. Boland in Australia.

The reason this money is kept seperate from the general budget, is that it is not at the discretion of the Gardai themselves, and needs approval from up high. This is mainly because it is considered difficult for the gardai to provide receipts when dealing with informers, and also, when a person is being relocated, it is considered bad form if the invoice for accomodation goes back to the Phoenix Park

by Sean Barry Mon Apr 25, 2005 23:31 seanbarry01 at yahoo dot ie Newry, Co. Down

So what if the state has a secret inteligence unit. All modern democrcies who value their continued existance have one...or more....(G-3 for external opps?). all this hysteria seems symptomatic of the 'taboo attitude' all too prevelant in Ireland today towards the broader scope of security / defence matters. I for one support our security and defence forces and if the odd euro or two needs to be stashed away for inernal or external intel opps then so be it.

by jsr Tue Apr 26, 2005 00:32

Ireland has several terrorist groups and one (I.R.A.) with many contacts on both sides of the border, and if some are to be believed international connections with other paramilitary groups. I hope to Christ that the State has something to monitor /counteract these elements. What’s the fuss about, if they told us where the money went ,published the accounts and named names it wouldn’t be much of a secret anymore.

by sgt-tommy Wed Apr 27, 2005 00:21

Part 1
On March 17 2002, 3 men in 'smart-suits' drove up to the gates of Castreagh Barracks in Northern Ireland. They allegedly spoke with "British accents" flashed some military ID and were allowed to proceed. They were then escorted by a police officer into the core of arguably one of the most heavily fortified Intelligence gathering operations in the world ......

What they left with is what we are concerned here.

by Al Thu Apr 28, 2005 01:48

Oh dear sweet jesus people, just what is it you all want? No intelligence? No police? No military? No prisons? yeah, Ireland would be a safe place to live then.
And can anyone here offer any proof to back up your claims? Oh it was an unmarked car, well must be a secret covert organisation then. And the minister wouldnt give an IRA puppet all the info? Now I wonder why he wouldnt do that.......

by Deller Tue Sep 27, 2005 01:57

There is an Irish Secret Service. The dep't is called "G4" and they do exist.........

by moriarty - "on constitutional issues" Tue Sep 27, 2005 02:22

* the budget.
* the director.
* past operations (on release of state papers usually staggered at 20 - 50 - 60 - 100 years)

and in most EU states they even know some of the current activities or are made aware of recruitment needs.

this is called "transparency", an important part of modern democratic states all the more important as on the scant evidence available it seems that the Irish "secret services" are not civilian based but drawn from the police and armed forces. This is not desirable and generally doesn't even make for good intelligence work or organisations. If they are engaged in monitoring suspected members of international crime or terrorist networks in the Irish state, they are most probably contracting non personel to translate material or else they are passing over "macro-intelligence" material to other extra-state agencies.

This is an issue of transparency and sovreignty.

by Devil Dog Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:03

"There is an Irish Secret Service. The dep't is called "G4" and they do exist........."

I think you mean "G-2", Army Intel - G-4 would be logistics & facilities.

by Al Tue Sep 27, 2005 14:38

Intelligence on criminals and terrorists should not be in the hands of the police/military? Are you mad? It should be with civilians? Gardai are civilians, we arent a military organisation.

It should be obvious to anyone with a decent IQ that intelligence gathering needs to be secretive. That should be bloody obvious.

Should I call in and let the suspect know in advance? "Hey Martin, were gonna be watching you for the next week so dont do anything illegal until I give you the nod that we are leaving", thats bloody inspired!

by plop plop Tue Sep 27, 2005 14:44

we know - there's a Irish army unit.
we also know they share training resources with the SAS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army_Rangers

we know there's a Garda office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

we presume they contract translators.

They can't be doing a good job of monitoring Al Q or trans-national mafia if they just expect to hear/read/decypher english or gaeilge or shelta - can they?

if they don't then either GCHQ in the UK or some other state gets all the phone calls, fax and other surveillance material, and is in effect
"the Irish state secret service" and the garda are just plod to stick on some types like flies on shite.

Which brings us to-

Accountability
Transparency
Sovreignty

by plop plop plop Tue Sep 27, 2005 14:53

You obviously know very little about intelligence work or intelligence agencies.

The best intelligence agencies on the planet are civilian services. The ones the paranoid talk about are the military ones. Its like this, you take a copper or a soldier and give them covert jobs, they look like coppers or soliders doing a covert job. Military intelligence do covert jobs. But you can't do a covert job without pure intelligence first.

just like Dublin in the 60s to 90s-
"oh! look over there, at the man with a moustache in the sports jacket, and the big plod shoes, he's too fat for a criminal isn't he?"

And you (the gardaí) not only told Cahill you were following him, you let the whole state know, (jayhus who's the man with the mickey mouse boxer shorts on his head?) and now anyone with an interest in Irish culture has seen Kevin Spacey & T.O'sullivan portray him as a "robin hood" when in fact he was a violent psychotic piece of filth.

And your job as a police service was to stop him.
YOU FAILED.

Our state and Our citizens
deserve

Transparency
Accountability
Sovreignty.

by Al Tue Sep 27, 2005 15:06

Yes Cahill was aware but that was NOT, I repeat NOT intelligence or covert survelliance. It was not performed in any sense, by a covert or 'secret' service.

That was done by detectives to stop and frustrate their activities. It worked very well, the films are not reality. All those followed went to jail except Cahill who was shot. their crime sprees dried up during that campaign so how did it fail? Prevention being the best cure. Still at least you didnt fall for the nice guy image in the movies.

As for intelligence agencies, I will say it again, Gardai are civilians, we arent a military organisation.

Considering the amount of IRA/terrorist groups in and around Ireland and their activities I think the Gardai have a good record. Of course as its covert and secretive the successes arent well known, only the failures.

The commenst made by you and Moriarty are of the ignorant (on your part I dont think thats intended) but its a reality. you arent involved in intelligence gathering in any form so have no experience to base your opinion.

But again, you probable still believe that theres isnt a Dublin Garda based in Dublin. "Sure dont they send you lads down the country and bring them up here?" No, they dont.

I would be interested to hear about these transparant agencies successes though.

by Devil Dog Tue Sep 27, 2005 15:10

Hmm, wikipedia - if it's on there, it must be true, eh?

What have the ARW got to do with intel anyway?

by plop plop plop squelch Tue Sep 27, 2005 15:16

it is challenged through the wikipedia foundation editorial process.
Have you checked the challenges?
Is there "disputed" or "neutrality" banner on the article?
No.
Therefore we can presume its true. Wikipedia has long gone past the "is it true?" stage. Its the largest free online encyclopedia on the net, and used by happy schoolchildren and journos as a source the world over.
If you have a challenge for any information on these pages propose the change-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army_Rangers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

by Al Tue Sep 27, 2005 17:06

wikipedia can be edited and changed by any users therefore it cannot be considered a definitive source of information. It even states that in its own guidelines.

Its not written by experts in the field but any person that feels they can contribute.

For example, you can enter the page about the Gardai and change the various parts around.

by yawn yawn yawn plop plop plop itch squelch Tue Sep 27, 2005 22:25

lets get this straight - I am a member of the wikipedia foundation, we are engaging in the ardous process of creating an online open source learning resource in over 5,000 languages.
You alter the wikipedia page on Gardaí after you register with the foundation -
your alteration will only be approved if it is not challenged-
You may join us, and see all the challenges that have been made to that page. You have interestingly not scribbled in the comments to this article any point of contention with the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

I am very proud of the sources I use, and only link to verifiable information in the open domain.

That article is factual, accurate, and not to be contested.

You are distracting as usual Al, from the content of the "moriarty" comments whilst continuing a near troll exchange with republicans (/as is your pet hate) across the newswire.

The absence of

*Accountability
*Transparency
*A named public director answerable to the legislature
*a known budget

means the irish citizenry can not be sure that secret service activities by either the Irish army rangers or Gardaí are-

*value for money
*in keeping with our sovreignty.

I feel quite disappointed that the security of the state of ireland relies on some plod in a unfashoinable sports jackets with unsuitable guns they all to often lose, backed up by a network of expensive criminal informants whose information can not be justified to the tax payer in the Dail.

by Al Tue Sep 27, 2005 23:24

Yet I changed the page on both the Gardai and the Rangers without even registering, how strange.

Now, would you like a list of all informants and how much they were paid to be put on the internet for your convenience? How about a full list of expences?

BTW, how can you make these claims and then also state they are overpaid? How do you know how much they are paid?

by yawn yawn yawn Tue Sep 27, 2005 23:34

You are now debating wikipedia Al. (check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na&diff=24161829&oldid=24161572
for the last revision) Like Al honestly why don't you leave your email and we can exchange emails instead of abusing the comments?

The absence of :-

*Accountability
*Transparency
*A named public director answerable to the legislature
*a known budget

means the irish citizenry can not be sure that secret service activities by either the Irish army rangers or Gardaí are-

*value for money
*in keeping with our sovreignty.

I and many are not convinced the Irish citizen is getting value for money Al. Either in stopping organised crime, fighting a terrorist threat since the foundation of the state. You seem to be able to say nothing to counter that.

by Al Wed Sep 28, 2005 00:00

Ha ha ha, thats funny. Kinda proves my point about Wik. I changed it and then you changed it back, I wont bother doing it again, thats a waste of time.

As for secret service, answer my questions, what and how should this accountability be delivered? Do you want a list of informants names and how much they were/are paid? Do you want reciepts for travel, food and accomodation for witnesses? What hotels they used, where they are now, what name they are now using?

Your alive and well, is that not proof that we are doing our jobs? Ireland remains one of the safest countries in the world, does that not prove we are doing our jobs? We have one of the best detection rates of crime in the world, does that not prove we are doing our jobs? Over 5 terrorist organisations in and around the state including one of the biggest worldwide yet one of the lowest rates of terrorist attacks, does that not prove we are doing our jobs?

Your arguement is "the guards dont solve all crime so they are crap" Well maybe you should look at the restrictions placed on us by yourself before complaining about crime rates. You cant have it both ways. As for Veronica Guerin, how could we have stopped that? He had a gun for starters, I dont.

Possible Guerin could have been saved using intelligence gathering, the very thing your complaining about. I might also add that Gillegan is currently serving a very lenghty sentence thanks to the Gardai that investigated and solved the crime (using intelligence amongst other things).

As for Shergar, well damn it all to hell if we have failed there. Maybe we should use your brand spanking new method, lets walk upto people and ask them a few questions.

"Hey, are you in the IRA?"
"No? Well even so, do you know who killed Shergar?"
"You ARE in the IRA? YOU killed Shergar? You buried the body in your back garden you say? Can I have a look? Gee thanks mister"

Your right, thats far more practicle and realistic. Why didnt we try that?

Bottom line is simple, in order to track and watch criminals without tipping them off you must be secretive. You cant be secretive if everything you do is open to the public. Its simple, its kept secret because allowing access would be allowing access to those that we are watching.

Now you trot off to sleep now safe in the knowledge that old Al here is keeping the bad men away.

by yawn yawn yawn plop plop plop itch squelch Wed Sep 28, 2005 01:23

Al, once again I have to reply to you through the comments because you refuse to offer an email address, either to the indymedia editors or the site moderator or the general list. Are you scared of us? Do you not trust us with your ISP???

It ought not surprise anyone that your change to the wikipedia amounted to "gardaí attacked a rts" to "rst attacked gardai", its what we've come to expect from the "wannabe garda". Just to think you had the opportunity to expand the article, get your suggested edit through the process (coz yes you don't just change it that easily - you give wikipedia your ISP unlike of course indymedia which encrypt it) and the proposed edit is screened=.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na&diff=24161829&oldid=24161572
You could have expanded it "garda Al" , to praise your "wannabe job".

You could have listed all the men who died in the course of their duty in the Irish police forces covered by that article, starting off with the Eden quay fire of a hundred years ago, including of course the templemore recruit who was sent untrained to capture kidnappers without availing of proper armed forced assistance.
But then you'd be repeating what others before have tried. "distorting" a wiki of public record.
How many times do you think someone has tried to edit that page and just leave something to the effect "they're wankers"?

That article is clean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na
The unproven allegations against the Gardaí have been removed and will be in future. And quite a few remain.

***************

Now I and Moriarty made several points :-


The absence of
means the irish citizenry can not be sure that secret service activities by either the Irish army rangers or Gardaí are-

*value for money
*in keeping with our sovreignty.

************************

No-one on this thread has asked for a list of informers to be left on the web, like the ISP addresses of those who abuse wikipedia.
We have asked for what other EU states enjoy.
Accountability and Transparency.
At not stage did I say "you're not doing your job plod" because as I seem to need to remind you again, I'm not talking about garda plod. I'm referring to secret service operations by both Irish police and military. I've asked that proper legislative measures be made to answer the problem especially on "sovreignty issues".
We could indeed make a long list of "failures" of the higher echelons of Garda Lane and Garda Whiteacre of Harcourt St and the Phoenix park, but I'd leave you and most readers out of the loop.

At present.
Ireland is unique in the EU in relying on foreign intelligence services for simple information. This may be presumed fact till it is proved otherwise. If it is not fact, then the Irish state is employing translators of Urdu, Arabic, Chinese, and many african languages. The Irish state doesn't have enough of those graduates. The Irish state doesn't even have a black garda. So where do the workers come from? Rather it seems obvious that the established relationship with GCHQ cheltenham on monitoring of Irish telecommunicaitons serves that shortfall.

Now quite a while ago, when your online personalty was still a novelty Al, you suggested that most of the suspected budget of the "irish secret services" was for paid informers and witness protection (only available since Veronica Guerin's murder). Thats what you believe, the man on the beat without a working radio, and yet your loyalty to Whiteacre is so great that you can't agree the Irish citizenry are being ripped off and their sovreignty undermined.

Is it coz u think I'm anti police?
Or you just feel inadecquate?

As an irish citizen I object to such a large amount of money being paid without the facility to challenge that through the elected legislature by:-

A Named director of national intelligence.
A fixed budget.
Accountability
Transparency
and information release
over 20, 30, 40, 60 or 100 years.
A Dail intelligence commitee.

Maybe that goes over your head, garda Al, which is why I seem to have to repeat it for your benefit and the boredom of the respected reader.

let us put in Big letters.


*ACCOUNTABILITY
*TRANSPARENCY
*A NAMED DIRECTOR ANSWERABLE TO THE LEGISLATURE
*A KNOWN BUDGET
*YOUR ISP.

by rooster Wed Sep 28, 2005 17:38

Things which have no place in an intelligence agency/secret service, their whole raison d'etre is that they remain secret and uncompromised.

Those people who call for an open caring sharing organisation that is accountable and all its operations remain transparent are either deliberately trying to hinder the agency's progress in the war against terrorism/drugs/organised crime or they are just naive.

by ex soldier Wed Sep 28, 2005 20:14

Irish army(p.d.f) mil int is G-9 not G-2, also it is based in that big white building in the phoenix park, the one beside garda hq.

The secret service is part of the dept of foreign affairs as i understand and is a very small operation.

by ex soldier Wed Sep 28, 2005 20:40

Jonah, G-9 mil int are the people responsibile for surveillance and infiltration of the anti war movement. The Garda are only the visible element. There is widespred sentiment that the anti war movement and other "subversive" groups are infiltrated, in some cases up to the highest ranks. Mil -int is estimated to be a 100 person or thereabouts strong unit. Their cmd centre is in the Phoenix Park. It is believed that "operatives" are made up mostly of Irish army officers who recieve overseas training, from among others the U.S. This has been the case since De Valeras time.Some are highly trained soldiers capable of deep infiltration. Given that we know approx their strength it is reasonable to assume that they have up to 50 operators when you make allowances for their tech, admin, logistics and command staff. It is believed that there is virulent opposition from army brass to recruiting outside contractors and therefore it is unlikely that there are any non nationals in their ranks. That is where special branch come into play, because the Garda do use the services of non gardai, their accounts would really be worth examining.

The Secret Service operates under the control of Dept of Foreign Affairs, basically spying on other nations. It is believed quite successfully. The seat at the U.N high table being a recent diplomatic success of theirs. Really they are diplomatic spies. Nothing new in that.


Given that one must assume that O'Snodaigh has access to other "mil int" you would think he should know all of the above. So either the boys have no intel, highly unlikely or the S(h)inners are on a deliberate red herring buzz.

by moriarty Thu Sep 29, 2005 00:32

transparency
accountability
declared budget
director answerable to parliament.

Despite Rooster's thoughts, these four elements are present for all the UK's intelligence agencies, and were credited with the improvement of their efficiency and ending the notorious feuding between "home" and "special security foreign" services. From the creation the national crime database and opening of recruitment the UK simply moved closer to the model in other states such as France and the USA. (where we must remember there are 16 distinct intelligence organisations not just the CIA, FBI and NSA.

& since we are speaking about the lack of * transparency * acountability * declared budget * known director answerable to parliament (at inquiry level at least) we might look at other EU states who have had dificult histories, as both their populations and states mature to accept modern social realities, and the dynamics of cold war covert operations and espionage ended.
Spain saw its intelligence agencies almagmated, and the resulting entity played a crucial role in the Madrid 11 bombing by refuting the first statements by the then Aznar government placing blame on ETA. They have since played a role in fighting the new threat of international terrorism and organised crime, * transparency * acountability * declared budget * known director answerable to parliament (at inquiry level at least) did not seem to stop them doing their job.
Germany from 1990 onwards had to deal with several competing agencies and infrastructures, the dissolution of the Stassi and other former east german organisations and the changing of western military covert operations. italy has been roundly criticised for its non-transparency and accountability which led to the exposure of a "rogue secret service organisation" (pretending to be the real thing but in fact a near cabal of far-right extremists) in early 2005. The activities of that group undermined the legitimate security activities of the Italian state. Activities of such importance as they have led to the 4th highest success rate after Spain, France, Germany in fighting Al Qaeda and salafist related terrorism and balkan / eastern european related organised crime.

There is no good reason, why Ireland ought not have a
* transparent
* acountable
* declared budget
* known director answerable to parliament (at inquiry level at least) security service.

There are though many bad reasons why this is not the case.

by duckula Thu Sep 29, 2005 01:47

THe reasons why
*accountability
*transparency
are resisted, are often linked to the fear felt in some quarters of society, (especially those societies that have lived through repression or tyranny) at release of historical information.

This is an inablity to approach reconciliation, and at the same time a be-littling of what occurs when accountability is impeded. And the history of many if not most european states show us clearly what happens - we call them "dirty wars" at worst and at best we become used to unsubstantiated public statements by career politicians in certain ministries on the presence of a subversive threat.

No-one can pretend that the practise of the state assasinations in Ireland helped the peace process emerge, or effected reconciliation between the communities of the island, or moved them forward to talking the same language. Rather, to the contrary it seemed to bring about an "acceptable level of violence". As indeed no spaniard can really think the GAL stopped ETA, it was obviously from the trial proceedings at the end - a return to franco era *unaccountable * non-transparent *dirty operations which together with political corruption undermined democracy, the electorate's answer - was to bring in Aznar.

In Ireland we all too often hear statements which are made in a political rather than objective intelligent context, for example, if a named director answerable to Irish parliamentary inquiry had asserted the presence of ten members of Al Qaeda in the state it would "mean" something slightly different to Ahern's post July 7 soundbyte. Or if such a figure had said in proper context that "a thousand Irish citizens" were members of the proscribed organisation the IRA instead of the progressive democrat TD currently heading the department of Justice it would "mean" something else.

A known director of intelligence doesn't stand to make political capital from their statements, because they are usually not members of political parties. This has been one of the "industry" reasons for disquiet at the appointment of John Negreponte by Bush as "overseer" of the US agencies. Though others giggle thinking the poor man must deal with daily conflicting reports along the lines of "we just guaranteed production of opium and cocaine to stave off inner city problems" with "we just stopped production of opium and cocaine to stave off acquisitive crime in the suburbs" with "we just paid this warlord to protect our interests" with "we just killed said warlord to protect our interests" with "we can't break that code" with "we just broke that code" with "the blue grey aliens want us to talk climate change" with "the greeny grey aliens want us to nuke antartica" with "we did kennedy" with "we didn't do kennedy but we did marylin".

This is why traditionally such directors are portrayed in post-Forsyth fiction as alcoholics in dresses _at the very least_. Its a very hard job. And Mc Dowell or any such comparative figures from any party in the Dail wouldn't really be able to get their heads around it.

Meanwhile, no-one can argue that the arrangement we have at the moment serves the needs of the Irish state or citizens. And as the Irish state moves closer to establishing a de jure european intelligence agency, its time to discuss these issues, they are neccesary to our process of maturing as a people, state and nation.

by rooster Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:11

Despite Rooster's thoughts, these four elements are present for all the UK's intelligence agencies, and were credited with the improvement of their efficiency and

by the wicked watson Thu Sep 29, 2005 13:07

The british government were told London was going to be bombed over summer 2005, and it was pretty obvious that several days were "unusually high risk". Those days when the world's leadership were in Gleneagles talking about Geldof, and Netanyahu was in London seemed pretty likely. The british government downgraded the threat at a meeting chaired by Ian blair the recently appointed police chief.

The same thing occured in Spain, the public know from the official inquiry that the CNI advised aznar that madrid would be bombed. Aznar disregarded the threat.

There is no good reason, why Ireland ought not have a
* transparent
* acountable
* declared budget
* known director answerable to parliament (at inquiry level at least) security service.

There are though many bad reasons why this is not the case.

by Al Thu Sep 29, 2005 22:26

For starters I will say it again, 5 (minimum) terrorist organisations (one of the highest in the world) yet have one of the best success rates in combating terrororism so while you can claim this and that are better the reality is we are the best. You dont like it but its reality. Now I cant take credit for that as Im just a 'wannabee' (the age old call when you cant face reality'.

As for
transparent: secret service, isnt the name ahint? How transparant? What is it you want? You want lists and names, well thats putting Garda lives in jeopardy, its putting informants in jeopardy, its putting witnesses in jeopardy and its putting innocent people in jeopardy as it would restrict our abilities.

acountable: In what way? Again its the same as transparant.

* declared budget; Ok, I have no problem with that but how detailed? A simple end figure? Sure thats workable.

* known director answerable to parliament (at inquiry level at least) security service: he's called the Garda commisioner.

BTW, there are black Gardai. Ireland has had black nationals longer than 5 years.

by not al Thu Sep 29, 2005 22:38

The secret service is a diplomatic spying operation.

by yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn yawn - its the encyclopedic guard again oh well give it 8 hours and we'll have daddy opus dei online too. Fri Sep 30, 2005 00:47

I'm so glad to hear there are black gardaí for five years as well, they probably all went to college too. I wonder have any other readers noticed them. Maybe they're at the desk translating more than 60 languages instead. & I suppose you have chinese gardaí and did all the chinese triad investigation stuff yourselves?

cop on plod.
You're not up to the job.

You outsource, and have outsourced for the last 40 years, and there has been no accountability for that fact. This runs counter to Irish sovreignty. When was the last time the garda commissioner answered a public inquiry in the Dail?

The sensible changes which are needed don't mean the gardaí have to stop playing coppers. They do such a brilliant job they have less than 50% of the confidence of the population. So don't get upset. You might help out society by controlling arms dealing. Or building an atmosphere where journalistic freedom means criminality does not go unreported due to intimidation. & we'll forget about Shergar.


Ireland and her citizens need as all others in the EU
* transparent
* acountable
* declared budget
* known director answerable to parliament (at inquiry level at least) security service.

by Al Fri Sep 30, 2005 18:16

Hmmm, I would like some proof of this 50% comment, is it the same source that states there were no black Gardai? The last person to use percentages when discussing the Gardai was Darragh and his showed an 85% support rate.

Now, please explain why we are not up to the job? I have pointed out why we are, you have not refuted my comments so do you accept them? Oh it must be because Gardai arent busy translating every language in the world but then again if we were how many would be on the beat/patrol? You would probable be moaning about that instead.

And finally, working with other agencies has been happening for years. Its called co-operation and works pretty well, would you prefer someone to be able to leave the country and then never have to face prosecution or to plan an attack from a different country and not get a warning? Oh I forgot, you dont think we need a police force at all, do you?

Would you care to comment on the planned kidnapping of a certain millionaires son? The fact that it was Garda intelligence that stopped it? Would you lik a receipt and the informants name?

Finally, would you care to comment on the latest recruitment drive and the requirements? the last one got over 10000 applications (2000 accepted and 1000 recruited) and this one is expecting twice that. Not bad considering the public dont like us according to you.

by moriarty yawn shergar yawn subversives yawn paid informers - yawn black gardaí yawn never heard of the rangers yawn triads yawn urdu arabic Cheltenham GCHQ co-op Fri Sep 30, 2005 19:35

The lack of
*transparency
*accountability
*a known budget
*a known director intelligence answerable to the Dail or parliamentary comittee means Ireland (yet another time is unique in the EU). Non-declared and non-accounted "co-operation" [meaning out-sourcing] of intelligence and security matters by the national police force challenges both sovreignty of the nation & the individual civil rights of citizens.
Compared to many other modern democratic states of similar size, Ireland's situation of normal and secret police duties being kept under one institution which is not properly open to independent complaint procedures ought be a cause of worry.

The call for an accountable, transparent Irish intelligence service is not a call for the gardaï to be undermined, but for a more efficient spending and allocation of resources.

The only "success" in Irish intelligence matters of the last ten years was the creation of the criminal assets bureau as the direct result of the murder of an investigative journalist, popular outcry, and a parliamentary emergency session.

Despite the protestations of the garda in these comments above, the security of the state and its citizens is not the function of the gardaí alone, and his attempts to distract attention from knowledge of covert operations by our military service is disingenious.

Now let's leave Al the rank & file Garda alone, so he can tell the Rossport 5 he was right about their purging all along, (he's a supporter).

But of course if you see a black Garda of african or carribean ethnic origin _do tell us_ Please note though you won't win a t-shirt if he's just well tanned and back from holliers or "special bring them home escort deportation duty".

Meanwhile lets point out to Al, that there have been black citizens in ireland since its foundation, not just the last five years. One of them educated at Raheny's boy school, ran a well regarded acoustic music session in the city centre, was/is well known amongst the inner city "chattering classes hate the guards crew" and appeared on telly for his "funny dublin accent" in Father Ted and was regularly stopped and searched by the white honky guards who dreamt of doing surveillance duty outside the general's (a.k.a. martin cahill's) house. Apparantly their institutional racism has not yet been adressed.
But this article and the comments were not meant to discuss the Gardaí. They were rather to stimulate inquiry into the nature, funding, accountability, transparency, history & future of the "Irish Secret Service"

(((the garda just can't resist seeing his nickname in print, I bet he goes back to the photo of himself too regularly to have a look at it.- But the good news is he hasn't tried to edit wikipedia in the last 100 hours. don't worry garda troll, you'll get your chance to chat again. Give us your email and we could all send you our thoughts personally everyday)))

by Al Fri Sep 30, 2005 19:59

What photo? What nickname? Am I famous?

I edited to point out it can be done, no more, no less. The point that you decide what stays and what goes proved the point (which wasnt mine)

Ok, you run along, you couldnt come up with a counter arguement. thats OK, Im bored anyway and was only interested in this thread.

As for Rossport, I didnt say a thing but thanks anyway for finally admitting Im right.

by Barry Fri Sep 30, 2005 20:18

I posted this before but I was tailed by this charachter one afternoon in Dublin . Rumour has it hes either Cuban or Haitian in origin , I prefer the Haitian theory meself . Big bad mofo , tall strapping specimen of a man , unlike the usual wee pot bellied red faced Branchers we,re used to . Or the spotty yuppie types .

As for Als boasts on the Gardas effectiveness against terrorist its only against ones of a republican persuasion . For some strange reason the guards have only actually successfully apprehended ONE loyalist terrorist in the last 35 years and havent prevented any attacks from that quarter , not a single one . As for the one they caught ,an incendiary bomb he was carrying in his pocket exploded . This was in the early 90s and ordinary Dubliners who witnessed it handed him to the guards , so thats neither down to detective work or intelligence . One way street this intelligence lark apparently . But as there is neither accountability , or indeed any notion of actual sovereignty in this process , the Irish citizen is not allowed to know why , or even to ask "why?" .

by Barry Fri Sep 30, 2005 20:52

What does IR £115,00 in 1976 convert to in todays funny money (euros) ?

Well thats what it cost for Garda Special Branch to hijack the dead body of Mayo Hungerstriker Frank Stagg and bury him under ten feet of concrete . Frank Stagg was a brother of TD Emmett Stagg .

Can anyone do the math and calculate the cost to the Irish taxpayer of protecting the people of Mayo from a dead body ?

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0301/D.0301.197711150055.html

by Joe Reid Sat Oct 01, 2005 15:53

Barry,thanks for your comment elsewhere re: the death of my sister Mary.Unfortunately,this was not the only occasion that my family were deserted by the protectionof the Garda.You may not be aware of the arrest and jailing of a loyalist bomber by this state in 1975.His name was George Samuel Farrell, he was a serving member of the U.D.R. .He and eight other loyalists were involved in the bombing of our family home in the County Donegal border village of Pettigo on 28th September 1973.The no warning bomb of 200lb.of commercial explosives destroyed our home and most of the narrow street.Farrell during his trial in the Special Criminal Court named his accomplices,they were all serving members of the U.D.R. and the R.U.C.reserve.No attempt was ever made to have any of these individuals extradited for this offence.What is more relevant is that Farrell specifically stated that the British army supplied them with the bomb.I know "AL" will say we deserved it and he is entitled to his opinion.However, my late sister Mary had asked for this bombing and information to be investigated under the remit of the Barron tribunal.Her request was denied because there was no loss of life in this incident despite verbal confirmation of cooperation between "loyalists" and "british forces". In this case, we did not need a secret service, the Garda had received information on this bombing 48hours earlier but took no action to prevent it. Action at that time in 1973 may have prevented other loyalist attacts in the following years.

by Joe Reid Sat Oct 01, 2005 16:03

Forgot to add that George Samuel Farrel served less than two years of his prison term and was released without publicity to return to his peace keeping role in the U.D.R.

by Joe Reid Sat Oct 01, 2005 17:31 joereid at eircom dot net

this comment is a response to a hidden post - IMC Ed Joe Public, do you believe that Mary Reid was murdered?Did you know my sister? For your information, my sister Mary was proven innocent of all charges against her in the French courts.She fought a campaign against the French special services for twenty years,they failed to intimitate or frighten her.Her personal attempt to expose the French secret service died with her.There remains only one important question- if Mary Reid was murdered,who killed her?

by rooster Sat Oct 01, 2005 20:04

A more relevant question would be to ask why rather than who!

by Al Thu Oct 13, 2005 15:34

Auditor general states that the secret service was one of the most efficient organisations in the country after it returned 60% of its budget.

I notice this isnt mentioned anywhere.

So the auditot general is happy that the accounts are in order. He thinks they are using the cash wisely and wishes all government funds were in such good order.

Everyone happy now?

by Damien Thu Oct 13, 2005 16:35

I would have thought the secret service would be well.....secret. So its hardly reasonable to expect to know all about them.

It is standard for secret service not to make their accounts publicly available. If anyone disagrees I'd be very interested in a link........

by gurggle Thu Oct 13, 2005 22:06

First off Damien :-
you're sort of right, no secret service discloses its complete budget. But most do ask for funding to be approved and estimate budgets are available. We call these figures in the public domain "the minimal budget".
So, you could go to SIS/MI6 today (whose website has been launched) and read that their "minimal budget" (with the other British intelligence agencies) is " £1.355bn for 2005/6 and is expected to rise to £1.553bn for 2007/8. Like any other public authority SIS is subject to stringent financial controls and oversight"

In the case of something a bit more jucier like the NSA; minimal budget is in billions and billions of dollars!! & when you consider the electricity bill the US taxpayer forks out for the NSA it goes "mega". [the NSA are known to be the biggest users of electricity in the US state of maryland.]
The NSA is one of the pethates of a US republican lobby who campaign on mis-spending of federal tax.

Al :-
You have previously said, in this very old thread that the "director" of the Irish secret services would be the Garda Commissioner when challenged over the fact that the Irish body does not have a director who is publically named and answerable to the Oireachtas. Thats coz you're a cop. Consider this, on the day before Sean Garland was arrested in Belfast in connection with the ongoing investigations into PN 14342 a copy of a US100$ note, who made the joke to RTE on government time about counterfeiting?
was it the Garda commissioner?
or was it michael Mc Dowell?
It was mc Dowell. He's quite a good candidate for the job we don't know who does. & he stands to make political capital from any joke, or bluster he airs to the state media provider RTE ¿is he not?

Anyway, you've re-opened the thread.
Be a Good contributor Al, source your assertion on the auditor general.

by Al Fri Oct 14, 2005 00:34

I shouldnt have to quote, its been in all the newspapers and on TV for the past couple of days.

Also have to point out that the budget was less than 1 million, yes 1 million. How do I know this? Its freely available in the budget as it will be again this year.

Now, they have back 475,000 out of 718,000 which means not only was the secret service the most efficient department but you know A, how much money they had and B, how much they used.

So they give you more information than any other secret service and use far less than other services.

Accountable and transparant. As for the head honcho, what difference does it make if its the commisioner or the minister?

by Damien Fri Oct 14, 2005 13:55

I'm afraid I still don't understand the problem .....you seem to be quoting the american and english secret service budgets as if the irish figures are not in the public domain....when in fact they are.

Doesnt seem to be anymore information in the UK\US figures than we divulge

by !! Fri Oct 14, 2005 14:06

where are the irish figures? just a link please.

by rooster Sun Oct 16, 2005 03:17

details of IRSP
workers party
Sin Feinn/IRA
or Indymedia's budget!!!

Leave the secret service alone or lets have some consistency!

by Anthony Sun Oct 16, 2005 19:26

There's no lack of consistency. If a member of any of the above organisations wasn't being told how their dues was being spent, they'd be perfectly entitled to query those who decide how the money is spent for the relevant information.

by I wonder sometimes Mon Jan 02, 2006 23:10

I just have to wonder about people who trash governments for having secret agencies to ensure national safety. Would we all rather a murdering group of organised thugs claiming to be the real oglaigh na heireann, or some loon islamic militant running this country? Ill tell ya one thing if these people were runing this country websites such as this wouldnt be long disappearing. If you like your freedom, and the ability to speak freely then at least make credible arguments/comments and stop trashing democracy, its about the only form of government that works.

by i.s.s.a top - i.s.s.a Tue Mar 21, 2006 13:59 goldsnake at emailyou dot co dot uk

AI, as much as you think you know. ignore the movies, ignore what you think you know.
apparently every country has an (s.s) funds enevitably then must be recieved. the fact that you people have not the slightest comprehension about the subject, it is clear that you all just speculate. If you know so much it wouldn't be secret.

by Liam Fri Sep 22, 2006 02:01

What's all the fuss about?
Sure we'd all like like to know what the secret service does but this could put the lives of agents or their activities in danger so who cares what they do as long as their intrests protect Irish lives. Mnay people here are quick to attack the the state and it's agents on the various forums, be thankful that there were and still are people who are willing to put their life on the line to protect Irish citizens for the price of a government wage. God knows how many loyalist attacks on Irish soil were stopped by Irish government Intelligence agents. they recieve no public thanks for the job they do. Show a little respect and loyality to your fellow countrymen and citizens.
That's my two cents as a patriot.

by knight_eo - never mind Mon Jan 01, 2007 22:40

much to my amusement of people on this site i would like to point a few people in the right direction

The Irish Secret Service is under the authority of the gardi with its head being the assistant comissioner
its title as someone correctly stated is c3 it is part of the crime and security division

it has had some major sucsesses in recent years in bringing down real ira units especaliy in wexford when undercover agents infiltrated and destroyed this cell

army intel is also a secret service but unlike thier counterparts across the pond is a military intelligence where mi6 is controlled by the foreign office thier perogitive is foriegn threats to ireland eg al q where as c3 is a domestic service for intel gathering and distribution and certain operational elements

Ps IM not a gaurd or connected to Uk/Us/Irish orginisations

by 24601 Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:34

What do you do if members of the Irish Secret Service, have the ability to conduct intelligence gathering over private landlines, of non-criminal, and non-subversives, and if private details like family conversations to American relatives, are leaked to non-intelligence Trolls, with limited IQ's, with friends in the publishing industry?

by Really Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:59

The Irish secret service is actually not part of the Dept of Justice or Gardai,but the dept of Finance!! It has beeen since it was founded in the Irish free state by Mick Collins and it was the finance dept that had to authorise funds for the various ooperations,and it has stayed there ever since.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jul 17, 2012 13:47

..they Irish state will protect itself and its wealthy ..and anyway is increasingly just a franchise of Nato/EU/Anglo-US interests..recent raids on anti-war activists indicate the targets in mind.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=31899

The irony of our celebrating a decade of centenaries of independence get increasingly Orwellian. William Martin Murphy would be well pleased with our unquestioning forelock-tugging to the global mafiosi of imperial white-collar criminal finance.

by 24601 Sat Jul 21, 2012 13:16

Lets see, no posts since Jan 1, 2007 and now two in the same hour...about those lizards...Seriously, I have no problem with legit security interests, they are crucial, and I think that it's high time that we armed them, I doubt Joe Citizen would take a bullet for THEM... BUT...phone hacking by morons with friends in publishing undermines any idea that information would be kept "confidential", and organized community harassment is as destructive to a country's reputation as traditional "crime"...time to plug those leaks(if they exist)...

by 24601 Wed Aug 01, 2012 09:30

What do you do if Big Brother has screwed- up and is embedded with local grafters who publish surveillance photos in pornographic type images for their own amusement? Billion dollar budgets could be better directed away from the contents of the lint in middle- aged belly buttons.

by 24601 Thu Aug 16, 2012 09:14

No more recent 9/11's so the professionals are a class act. Hope that they check for unfriendlies on every project, wouldn't want to wake up with Ovtcharka ant poison in any bottled water from some selling to both sides.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:28

..of the approaching anniversary..and your friendly agencies..here's a little historical info..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=32323

on the cross-ply put and call options

by Pharoh - Whiskers Sun Dec 30, 2012 04:17

This unit is no more than a laugh