NIPSA Walkouts

by Red Block Sat Nov 29, 2003 17:07

The pay dispute within the Northern Ireland civil service has been brewing for a long time, and all documents from the NIPSA (the north's version of SIPTU) are filed here:
http://www.nipsa.org.uk/CS03pay.htm
NIPSA is presently headed by Carmel Gates, a workers activist of long experience in Northern Ireland, a member of the SP, who shined during the firefighters debacle.
She was elected on 37% of the ballot, being supported by the alliance of northern worker and rights acivists who colloborated under the title: "Time for Change".
Out of a total vote of 12,302, she polled 4,755 votes against the then Deputy General Secretary. It was felt by the northern "left" that her election represented a significant degree of discontent with the conservative leadership of the union.

by Davy Carlin - NIPSA {BRANCH 8 - PC Sun Nov 30, 2003 14:38

'Branch 8 of Nipsa {its largest branch} leads mass unofficial walkouts'.


The time for change campaign while a worthy enough cause has had limited effect and holds a different strategy to others. Rank and file activists in Nipsa initiated the mass unofficial walkouts in Belfast. It brought a 1500 work force to a standstill and won other solidarity walkouts from all around Belfast to an extent that it moved that minister for N' Ireland to personally condemn branch 8, such was its impact.

This militant action in a few hours has had more impact than years of talking within various groups as it brought 'business management ' to a standstill and more importantly sent out a clear message that workers will not take this treatment by management and if needs be, if the union Bureaucracy won't move on this issue, or doesn't move quickly enough - then quite simply - we the workers will do it. As my close colleague Ryan {the walkouts spokesperson and a leading member of NIPSA stated while doing the BBC and ITV and other press issues 'workers will stand up for their rights and a fair deal'. SWP rank and file NIPSA activists {as has been shown} will be at the forefront in fighting for that fair deal.

Davy Carlin SWP and NIPSA {Branch 8 - PC}

by black block Sun Nov 30, 2003 15:03

And for the moment NIPSA "section 8" is _very important_. But I felt it neccesary to remind readers and perhaps northern and other politicians that worker affairs in Northern Ireland have been bubbling for a while. It is now "significant" that workers in beurocracy of the northern ireland state, are crystalising attituted on tactics. I think it is very welcome to see this type of "direct action" being taken, and welcome it as a postive step forward by NIPSA, and it's members be they SWP or SP or of _any_ political party background or _none_.
& I can't but help find it slightly ironic that the northern irish "red block" by adopting "black block" tactics, are in the position of effecting the "constitutional debate" which as we all know is presently hampered by "impasse" in the Assembly, for let's be _very honest_ the workers in the Beurocracy of the northern ireland state are in the position to switch off the xerox, unplug the computer, close the blinds and put the "out of order" sign on not only Stormont, but all northern ireland beurocratic institutions.
Thus I commented above, - we ought now be very "candid".

solidarity from @ least one black blocker to the workers of the northern irish state!
%-)

by ? Sun Nov 30, 2003 18:11

The biggest branch??????

by DAVY Mon Dec 01, 2003 09:51

I stand corrected


I had to go and check that one myself.

Branch 8 is in fact the largest branch in the N.Ireland civil service and 'one' of the largest branches in NIPSA.

It is though I believe the most active and as the General Secretary of NIPSA recently stated 'the most famous', branch in NIPSA, which will of course become hightened due to the recent initiation and leading of the mass Belfast walkouts.

by Hmmm Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:55

In recent elections the true level of support for SP Trade Union Mandarins has been exposed, 167, 176. I wonder who counted the votes for Carmel Gates?

by Davy Mon Dec 01, 2003 19:07

To SP member who E-Mailed me cannot return to that address? But will print here as I know you read this site.

1} No the SP are no longer involved in the Belfast Anti War Movement.

2} No despite letters {even hand delivered }and numerous e-Mails to do so, they have not had any involvement what so ever in the ARN. I would presume that they are putting Party before class. That is, they would hold a stall with two people collecting signatures against racism {fair enough} but would not get involved in a increasingly high profile campaign which holds all the minority ethnic support groups amongst others within its support base as well as trade unionists, trades union councils, working class communities organisations etc. They do this I believe simply because the SWP {who with others} are to the fore in it. I can think of no other explanation as to why an organisation so against racism would not participate in a growing and high profile campaign also against racism, one would have thought they would have welcomed such an opportunity to get involved, but it could seem the anti SWP politic unfortunately overrides the fight for them to participate in a united campaign against racism.


3} As I stated it was SWP rank and file Nipsa activists with supporters, who due to the respect won with workers, lead the mass walkouts. As spokesperson Ryan above who is also the Secretary of the South Belfast anti water charges campaign of which Jim Barbour is a member stated,' workers will stand up for their rights', so that’s why then they took such action.

To be honest I would like to see {despite my many differences and bad experiences } the SP working on such campaigns in Belfast

Yet to be frank while I would like for them and again publicly ask them to get involved in ongoing united campaigns, such though is my understanding of their leader's mindset that I believe that they will not.

Yet the difference to us the North and presently is that if the SP do not get involved it may be disappointing but in reality it will have absolutely no impact on the campaigns. Last week we seen a revolutionary Socialist poll thousands of votes, without the SP, we then seen NIPSA members walkout on masse on unofficial action from below, without the SP, that same night the BAWM on a miserable Friday held a decent protest at Queens University, without the SP, next week the ARN will mobilise for an event at Belfast city Hall, without the SP, Feeder marchers first of workers and community activists and then students have marched from working class communities {from all over Belfast}, without the SP etc etc.

For me in Belfast the days are gone now when 'us' and 'them' and a few others fought it out over a table, we {the SWPin Belfast} have moved on to attempting to work on larger and more representative campaigns with more representative forces for the benefit of the working class.

Our history over the last year speaks for itself from the termed ‘historic ’Falls and Shankill march this time last year to the now masse unofficial walkouts one year on almost to the day and {not forgetting all that went in between} Yes as you state we have a history much if not all of it before we were active or indeed which we had no control over. As I had stated to your comrade previously but two points, don’t believe everything you are told, look outside the blinkers, and secondly if you must judge us judge us on what we do now or have done recently.

The great thing about Indymedia is that organisations can be held to a/c in the sense that serious questions can be asked. Of course there are those that will not reply but I believe such organisations will always hold some members that are prepared to engage, debate and discuss other ideas. On that note I must add Congrats to the new look site and offer my thanks for providing such a space. I write and will continue to contribute to two online sites the Blanket and Indymedia. I would urge others that have so far not felt they could contribute to do so and let your ideas run free.

Finally if the SP want to get involved in any of the campaigns they are more than welcome, if not as I stated it will have no effect as we with many others will move on in an initial modest way to attempt to effect change


We can carry on this debate via my e-mail if you do not want to do it here. Hope this covers your points and have been honest and frank as you had asked. Fraternally Davy

by Eoin - SP (personal capacity) Tue Dec 02, 2003 00:06

Davy, your constant pairing of silly sectarian swipes at the SP with protestations that the SWP in general and you in particular are "trying to get past" that kind of bickering is hilarious.

The SP are involved in innumerable "broad" campaigns and bodies, from the anti-water charges campaigns to NIPSA's left body. You know that. We know that. What on earth makes you think that you can get away with brazenly claiming otherwise?

Next week: Davy talks about how the SWP in the North are wonderful and the SP are really nasty. Again.

Get a new record.

by sp member (personal capacity) Tue Dec 02, 2003 09:20

In the teeth of an attempt by the government to break NIPSA in the civil service and a full scale retreat by the right wing of the union who control the union davy picks this moment to have a go at other lefts in the union.

This is the time to discuss tactics to win the dispute and to build the left in all parts of the union not have a go at everyone else.

by Barney - Fuck the Unions Tue Dec 02, 2003 09:34 Fuck the Unions Fuck the Unions

They're nothing but parasites. They fucked up the Irish economy for decades with their "class war" bullshit, while the Union top brass pocketed a fortune.

It wasn't until the non-union IT sector came in that we managed to get our economy going,

Just look at the salaries of the Union top brass.

by Davy Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:21

I do and will continue to reply to concerns raised both against the SWP and any others, however difficult. I do incidently have quite a lot of discussion with various persons including SP members via my E-Mail but could not on this occassion reply to the address sent.

And as we know of course there will be persons that will not like frank and honest answers, but hey thats politics.


So on the meat of the points firstly Eoin. Firstly there is a difference between sectarian swipes and providing facts to questions posed or raised. If I am wrong then I will be the first to go and check it out and then state that I was mistaken as I have already done above. So on that I must say that I am being honest when I say that I do not know of the 'innumeral broad campaigns' and bodies as you state that the SP in Belfast are involved in. Yes there is the Anti Water Charges campaign. But it as a united campaign has not met in a while and has did very little in the way of mobilising due to it being controlled by ICUTU The SP have called some meetings and fair play to them. Although poorly attended {3 persons} in W/ Belfast ten or so in East, but when they worked with ourselves we collectively mobilised fifty to the S/Belfast meeting of which I stated my comrade Ryan is the Secretary.



Yes the SP are involved in Time for Change but as I stated it was the move from below with the mass unofficial walkouts which had more impact than in the main sitting around constantly talking. These two are the only united fronts I know that the SP are involved in. They did the low pay stall {since dropped} and some anti racist stalls but these were purely SP.


Eoin 'the you know it we know it' stuff I cannot agree with. This is what I know so can you tell me and the viewers of the 'inummerable united fronts' that you are involved in in Belfast? As I have always stated there is a difference between perception on what one is told and the hard facts.


Again my facts are not 'brazen' but simply the facts as I know it, if I am wrong then give me the facts to prove otherwise. But I believe I do have a firm grasp of most of the united campaigns ongoing, but I wait your reply on that one.


As for SP member on having a go at the NIPSA left ,again I was but answering points raised to oneself, but putting that aside the discission on tactics is important. On the issue of Nipsa - stating that the mass unofficial walkouts of workers had more impact than siitting around a room in the main talking for years is in fact discussing and raising my agreements and disagreement on differing tactics. If I disagree with Time for changes strategy, although I stated it was a worthy enough cause then I will say so. If by stating a different opinion on a different tactic is in your opinion having a go at the left then I would state quite simply I do not agree with you. As by discussing tactics and strategy within a campaign where one can agree or disagree but search for the best way forwards I believe fundemental to that successs.

To Eoin I believe your reply for me fits into the politic of political inevitablity and therefore my points will not convinve you, to the SP member all I state is always check out the facts for oneself as I have learnt that overtime.


Whatever the difficultly it may raise I will continue to raise points and shall raise but the facts. Much of the time I have discussions via my e -mail although I would personally prefer to be open on such matters, yet I understand the difficulties that that would hold for some within various organisations.''

Finally it is not about SP bad SWP good in the North but about raising the facts and letting others judge. I constantly hear about the bad things persons raise about the SWP and I believe everyone should not be tarred with the same brush on such perceptions. So I put but the facts as I know it in an open and honest way.

The wonderful thing about indymedia is that there is no hiding place, For me as an individual I am confident enough to take on the arguments and will also hold up my hand if proven wrong. Above I give but my understanding of situations based on facts but will gladly debate and acknowledge wrong if proven wrong.

by Eoin - SP (personal capacity) Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:25

Repeating yourself in a more long winded way doesn't make your points any more true Davy.

You have one of the funniest fixations I have yet seen on Indymedia. Your postings here consist almost entirely of either meeting notifications or claims that the SWP in Belfast are just wonderful and the SP are awful awful mean sectarians. What makes it funny is that unlike most of the other people who are fixated on having a go at some other left wing group on this site, you are so lacking in basic self awareness and honesty that you always combine your sectarian swipes with pompous claims that you and the SWP in general are trying to get past all the petty sectarianism.

For a long time your postings used to be about how the SP in Belfast consists of three people, two of them fulltimers. You seem to have got bored with that idiotic claim, so you have moved onto some new ones. Your lies are just as brazen.

It is a matter of easily checked fact that the SP are centrally involved in both the broad anti-water charges movement and the left bodies in NIPSA and other trade unions. The "talking shop" left in NIPSA that you so crassly sneer at came to prominence because it's members led the term time workers dispute to victory - by some distance the most effective industrial action taken in the North for a decade.

As I said before, you know this, and we know this. Now get a new record.

by Davy Tue Dec 02, 2003 13:17

I am a liar, long winded, sectarian. pompous, fixated, lacking in basic awareness, dishonest - Blah Blah Blah Blah- all in four sentences , one would think I had touched a sore point.

Now I hope that we have got some of that political inevitability of your chest, once again, for the viewers

You state - the SP are involved in ‘innumerable’ broad campaigns

I state - the SP is involved in 'Time for Change' {worthy cause} but I disagree with its tactics and have a right to state such. This because I believe the mass walkouts had a far larger effect as stated above at original posting.


Secondly I had stated that the SP are involved in the Water charges campaign as are the SWP{and also stated fair play to them} but again stated how I feel that the campaign is progressing or not.

As for the years 'time for change' was up and running yes there was the term time workers dispute and again well done to 'all' involved, but by and large those whom I spoke to outside the SP involved in Time for change where and have been dis illusioned by its - by and large inactivity and its concentration mainly on trade union electrolism. I presume the mass walkouts could give time for change a wake up call - or maybe not.

So once again, Eoin -

what are those 'innumerable' broad campaigns you state so forcefully that you are involved in? I would presume the viewers can look past your political inevitability and rhetoric and search for the facts. So give us the answer and provide the facts to such a huge statement, if not then well, what can one say, - quite simply -

maybe because he just can't.

Looking forward to an entertaining reply

by Eoin - SP (personal capacity) Tue Dec 02, 2003 13:58

At last we have a bit of honesty from Davy.

He has finally dropped the pretence that he is doing anything other than attempting to score some sectarian points. No more are your nastly little remarks accompanied by pompous lectures on how you and the SWP ("despite bad experiences" at the hands of the evil Socialist Party) are trying to rise above all this bickering.

Instead you are getting right to the point. You are obsessed with attacking the SP and extolling the wonders of the SWP. Unless your postings are meeting announcements that's about all you have to say for yourself. You aren't trying to rise above anything. You wallow in the worst elements of the petty sectarianism that is all too common on the left.

As for the broad bodies that the Socialist Party is involved in - anti-bin tax movement, anti-water tax movement, IAWM, the left bodies in every trade union almost without exception and that's just for starters.

Are we perfect? No of course not. We make mistakes like everybody else. But to be lectured by a member of the SWP on the need for people on the left to work together cooperatively is just too much to take. Your organisation managed to issue a hypocritical appeal for "left unity" on the very same week that it tried to cut across the left candidate in the biggest union in Ireland for the crassest of sectarian reasons. Your combination of laughable claims to be above sectarianism with the most vicious attempts to put down other organisations is truly in that fine tradition.

The SWP contains many fine, well meaning, people although I disagree with their politics and methods. Like any group, it also contains some people who are arseholes. You can decide which category you fall into.

Come on Davy, why don't you retort with a return to claiming that the Socialist Party has three members in Belfast? You know you are itching to. Now, unless you have something more interesting to say, I'm afraid that I have better things to be doing.

by Puppy Watch Tue Dec 02, 2003 14:33

Looks like the puppies can't comment on the south anymore and are focusing on the North.

Should have done that more than a week before the election. Who knows your old Labourite might have done a bit better in South Belfast.

by Davy Tue Dec 02, 2003 15:07

Well maybe it is just me but I do think that I have had very lengthy debates with SP members, anarchist, SInn Fein members and many others on an array of topics, on Indymedia { Nudge with the arm} - { Go on Eoin you are such a wee fibber}

'Attempting to score sectarian points '

Yawn - once again I am but answering questions and raising the facts.

As for meeting notifications - another great part of Indymeida - access to freely advertise. I could suggest that you do use this facility for anything that may be ongong in the North - you know any of those innumerical campaigns etc.

As for the broad bodies - come on we aren't all that naive. You were refering to the North.

So once again we go to what I have repeatly stated,

ZZZZZZZZZZZ - Who are the 'innumerial campaigns' and bodies in the North you are involved in?

That is a huge statement and if thats what you are telling people then give us the facts. I would argue that you can't so back up your statement, the viewers are watching.

Again I have to repeat myself also on this issue -don't attempt to tar all with the same perceptions - this debate is about the Northern SP and SWP as you well know. - I believe the Southern attacks attempt could be interpeted as desperation.in finding the inability to produce that facts on the North - for such a huge statement

snnnnooooozzzeeee - So again in the North {the debate} what are those innumerical campaigns. I would state that I have stated the reality in the North, those are my facts, so I give you the final opportunity to prove those facts wrong.

To make such a statement without any facts is very worrying. Concrete politcal and practical leadership should be based on fact, not myths, perception or worse. I have no problem with individual SP members [hs -sp for example at least offers both a poltical and pratical debate} but I have a fundemental position that if a leadership { whatever leadership} wishes to lie to their members then that should be dealt with by their members {as there is no other real practical way to deal with it} but to lie to the class - through such public statements - then Indymedia offers the perfect opportunity to ask for evidence.

Unforunately you sadly have not provided it - and I believe you cannot provide it - but an interesting debate nevertheless giving again an interesting insight to a mindset. Lessons again learnt. Back to work.

So again in the Noth what are those innnnummmm -------------------- {Nodded off}

by SPWatch Tue Dec 02, 2003 18:06

Wake up and smell the coffee. The SP are a Micro Grouplet in the North who have no base in the community. They dont win union positions by standing on a platform of revolutionary socialism, its always reformist dishwater.

by SWP watcher Tue Dec 02, 2003 22:10

"I have a fundemental position that if a leadership { whatever leadership} wishes to lie to their members then that should be dealt with by their members {as there is no other real practical way to deal with it} but to lie to the class - through such public statements - then Indymedia offers the perfect opportunity to ask for evidence."

What have you done when the SWP leadership lied to their members and the class? (or I should say - told the truth, something that is far rarer)

by Davy Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:05

Try and understand what I am Saying

So I repeat


I have fundemental position that if a leadership { whatever leadership} wishes to lie to their members then that should be dealt with by their members {as there is no other real practical way to deal with it -


but to lie to the class - through such public statements - then Indymedia offers the perfect opportunity to ask for evidence,

But to spell it out in black and white,

If I believed that in any organisation I was in that they had attempted to lie to their membership or even attempted to be economic with the truth or attempted to make a reality out of a percepition then I would within that organisation attempt to hold them accountable, which I have done on many occasions within the structures of various organisations.

As for the second point if any organisation was to lie to the class {including SWP} and if I genuinely believed that they did {while as a member} then I state openly that it would be simply wrong - But again

and as I stated Indymedia is the perfect place to ask whatever leaderships for replies and if they do reply then one should ask them for the evidence and the facts, as I had done above - but in this case the facts where not given in support to that huge statement- simply because that I know that the facts to back up such a statement could not be given.

Not being an elected person on any leadership bodies I believe 'leaderships' should be held accountable. Such is the nature of tight democratic leaderships of long experience in relatively small organisations that of course could be hard but nevertheless it has to be attempted.

Finally I do enjoy the debates and discussions via my e -mails with SP, SF, greens and various other organisations members and individuals including many of my comrades North and South of this divided island and will continue to do so {and others are welcome to e mail on issues although I would prefer the debate to be open - but I understand concerns} Such discussion though from whatever quarter and through whatever format helps onself and others get a better understanding all round, - which can only be a good thing

Signing off on this one, Davy Carlin

by black block Wed Dec 03, 2003 15:54

This week you might like to know, the workers of the second largest diplomatic service in the world [that of France] went on a one day stoppage, unplugging the photocopier, the minitel and saying "plus d'argent si vous plait!". It occured the day after the comment above.

=Solidarity with these civil servants as well.

%-)