Socialist Party election results

by Counter Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:33

McCann got 2300

by Wise Up Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:35

That this might make some SPers think again?

by Had again Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:40

Dump the cryto-loyalists!!!!
Hadden and his son.

by I didn't Thu Nov 27, 2003 18:55

Jim got less votes than the Transcendental Meditation Party that stood in South Belfast a few elections ago. They got 0.6% in the South Belfast election. They believed in yoga flying and said if elected they would levitate Stormont against sectarianism and still they got more votes than the SP.

by Curious Thu Nov 27, 2003 19:03

Oisin, Finghin, Shane, McCamley, Boyd, O'Brien, HS? Dont they have anything to say about their wonderful victory? Wasnt it great how all those hundrds of people they recruited recently turned out and canvassed for the SP?

What a pathetic bunch!

by Well Done Thu Nov 27, 2003 19:12

Well done to the SEA and McCann I am not sure how long it has been since a radical and revolutionary Socialist polled thousands of votes against the Sectarianism and the one sided, us and them politics. Although I can say it has been a long long time. This is a breath of fresh air and a bit of history made in the process. Again well done to the SEA and the SWP and I hope things can develop from this.

by observor - SWP Thu Nov 27, 2003 19:21

The small but impressive unity displayed in Derry shows what was/is possible if the left unites. Fair play for Marion Baur of the CP to give it a go in East Derry.
Lets hope the left will now unite on an anti-sectarian ticket - for the next time - Euro elections pehaps?
Divided we are but pinpricks. United we can begin to make a small dent.

by sp member (personal capacity) Thu Nov 27, 2003 19:58

Well done the sp candidates and the election teams.
The result was as expected and the chance to fly the flag and spread ideas was well used.

by will you lead us? Thu Nov 27, 2003 20:09

How come no-one thought of that before, here's us with all our little splinter groups, maybe we should unite and put aside our petty principles.

by Tommy Thu Nov 27, 2003 20:44

West Belfast: John Lowry 407 (1.2%)
Upper Bann: Tom French 247 (0.6%)
Mid Ulster: Francie Donnelly 230 (0.5%)
South Down: Des O'Hagan 115 (0.3%)
East Belfast: Joe Bell (0.4%)
Lagan Valley: Frances McCarthy 97 (0.2%)
South Belfast: Paddy Lynn 96 (0.2%)
North Belfast: Marcella Delaney 90 (0.3%)

by marxist Thu Nov 27, 2003 20:55

I think that the 'non sectarian' parties and candidates in these elections didn't do as well as they had in previous elections. This is because of the deepening sectarian divide that has increased, even since the last elections. The Alliance, Womens Coalition, Greens, etc have not done as well as they have done in the past.

The results of the HOPE (anti Hospital cuts) candidate Kieran Deeney was very good news. He topped the poll and got elected. Eamon McCann's vote was also very good.

It would be wrong to say that McCann's vote is because of 'socialist unity'. It is largely due to Eamon's prominance around the Bloody Sunday issue and his profile as a journalist,. It's got very little to do with the work of the SWP- in fact McCann has very strained relations with the SWP. The other SEA candidate had a performance similar to the SP candidates- which in my opinion was good given the circumstances of an increasing sectarian divide.

PS
Is it true that Monica McWilliams is a member of the Communist Party?

by Steelie Thu Nov 27, 2003 22:06

The hospital service in the North is sure to improve greatly now. After the great result of the health alliance TD's in the free state, the hospitals have improved soooo much.

by Mockle Thu Nov 27, 2003 22:47

Jeez but there's some work to be done on your political education comrades if you think that McCann's vote was a socialist vote, not personality. If you think it was a left vote, you reckon you'd have got the same number if you put up another SWP candidate? Catch yourselves on and recognise reality before you've any chance of progress.

by Abelard Fri Nov 28, 2003 06:38

Looks like the Workers didn't get the message this time.

We will have to do more to educate them about the wonders of marxism and the evils of capitlaism.

Never mind comrades, we'll soldier on!!

Hee Hee!!!

by Communist Party Memeber - CPI Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:37

Monica McWilliams is not a member of the Communist Party of Ireland. I'ev heard this rumour a few times on the run up to this election. I'm not sure if she was in the party in the eightys but not in the last fifteen years.
The rumour probably started because a CPI member did run on a WC platfrom a number of years ago.
Marion Baur who ran for SEA with Eammon McCann is a memeber of CPI.

by Wise Up Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:17

'the result was as expected'?

Jim Barbour stated numerous times to numerous people that he expected to get over a thousand votes anything less and he would feel devastated. Which the SP are now feeling, but are now trying to convince their members that the leader of the fire brigades union in N Ireland and the SP expected him to get less than 0.5 of the vote. The funny thing is that the SP members will propably believe this.

by Concerned Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:31

The SP dont just have questions to answer about their election performance. There are also serious matters to be addressed in Dublin. The SP called a demo to oppose Aine Ni Chonnaill in TCD, then they failed to appear. Only UCD anti racists and a couple of AFA members turned up.

Would it be expecting too much to ask for an explanation?

by Socialist Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:57

The votes in the elections for socialists are a simple indication of the lack of activity of these people BETWEEN elections. You cannot just arrive into an area and say hello everybody, Im here to cure all your ills with a magical potion , socialism, and be dumbfounded when you get the standard monster raving looney party 100 to 200 votes. Organisations will get from elections what they put into grassroots work and activity in communities, not in the TU movement or any other activity that is not based in the community.

McCann is an exception because of his national profile.

The WP vote isn't surprising as they have insulated themselves from reality in their drinking dens and only leave them a week before the poll to stick up posters. Anyway, why would you vote for the WP when SF are bigger and now seem to argue the same position?

We are going to hear the usual excuses for the poor socialist vote, consiousness is at an all time low, sectarianism, tribal politics etc. the fact is if you dont work between elections for your community then you will not get votes.

by Nordy Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:05

"Anyway, why would you vote for the WP when SF are bigger and now seem to argue the same position?"

Why vote for Barbour when you can vote for the DUP or the PUP.

by matt Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:40

The SP vote was pathetic. That's all that needs to be said. The nationalist working class, with 30 years of struggle behind it and the instinct to recognise opportunists and collaborators, voted en masse for Sinn Féin. If McCann stops SF getting a third seat in Derry he'll have done his job and can go back to writing crap for the bosses newspapers.

by John Meehan Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:00

Matt,

This personal abuse directed against Éamonn McCann won't do.

The essential political point is this : why vote for a minor cabiner reshuffle?

That is what SF's increased support at the expense of the SDLP will mean, if the four main parties finally decide to form a government. And that is not even guaranteed - I suspect we are in for a period of prolonged British direct rule.

I suggest that voting for pro-agreement parties is only a "choice" between tweedledun and tweedledee, much like the "choice" of a Fine Gael led coalition or a Fianna Fáil led coalition in Dublin.

The practical alternative?

Do not, on principle, join capitalist coalition governments - the added poisonous ingredient in the six counties is that the four main parties (including SF) are implementing "institutionalised sectarianism".

These politics are definitely popular with SF voters - and obviously with you - but that does not make them right.

A last word - when you have the time, take a look at the anti-trotskyist venom directed by the leadership of Official Sinn Féin towards its left wing critics in the 1970's - people like Eoghan Harris, Tomás MacGiolla and company - and observe where they ended up.

by FI watch Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:04

"Do not, on principle, join capitalist coalition governments"

You could perhaps have told your comrades that in Brazil.

by matt Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:40

Accept the fact that you have backed the wrong horse, or maybe mouse. Try the vote for yourself party next time. Or maybe apply the cunning trotskyite tactic of entryism to the Natural Law Party. And don't be so condescending. I would wager I know far more about the history of OUR movement than you so that stuff about the stickies doesn't wash. Trotskyism is the political equivalent of sevent day adventism and has absolutely nothing to do with the real world. Anywhere it has deluded people into following it it has only succeeded in spreading disillusion and betrayal. The SP vote ought to convinve them to give up and go home. No-one is interested. Not even the loyalists who they tried to hoodwink into voting for them.

by Jimmy Breslin - none Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:47 Drogheda

A point has been raised which is worth discussing: why is it alright for the USFI Section in Brazil to enter a Capitalist Government but wrong for SF to enter Government in Stormont?

by a guy called satan Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:52

The vote was more than a minor cabinet reshuffle .This is despite the fact that any executive that emerges will be as impotent as the last one. People aren't stupid .They recognize that all major policy decisions will still be made in London and either voted to endorse the status quo or to reject it - along pro and anti imperialist lines.That's why the small unionist and loyalist parties like the PUP ,UKUP,Socialist Party and NIUP were squeezed out by the DUP who are seen as the best garauntors for a continued union .

by Sf watcher Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:53

SF when in power put term time workers out on strike after McGuinness slashed their pay and conditions. They also favoured the Hayes report in Fermenagh whil oppurtunistically opposing it in Omagh. Well the people of West Tyrone have seen through SF and voted for a genuine anti cuts candidate. SF when in power implemented Blairs cuts instead of using their power in the assembly and the massive support on the ground to initiate a real fightback against cuts. Look at SF in the south, SF cllr Mark Daly supports bin tax as do the party in Sligo. SF in Dublin were always opposed to blockades.They also take massive donations off big corporations in return for doing their dirty work, look at SF and Ann Speeds role in the UCD Coke referendum.

SF are not a party of the working class, they are a right wing sectarian party that has nothing to offer people. They may have got a good vote today but they will be exposed eventually

by Puppy Watch Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:55

One of the puppies has broken out of quarantine.

by SP watcher Fri Nov 28, 2003 13:59

The SP first mentions the good doctor after he is elected! It could be said that the SP are a Pro Loyalist Party. But why bother? Everyone knows it already!

Well done puppy! Instead of dealing with your miserable vote you attack SF!

Any views on the SP not turning up for their own protest in Trinners?

by John Meehan Fri Nov 28, 2003 14:39

Thanks for that Jimmy - it is a valid question.

I will post a more extensive comment on that later, with relevant information.

In the meantime you might check out the fact that the PT (Workers' Party) leadership in Brazil is conducting a campaign to expel Fourth International supporters from the party for voting against right wing measures on pension reform - a petition is in circulation that has been signed by several left-wingers across the globe - including, I am happy to report, Joe Higgins TD, Scottish Socialist Party parliament members, Ken Loach, Noam Chomsky, etc etc

Looks like Matt is only interested in swapping insults - a pity.

The difficulty with your approach is that when your own party is in trouble -as the republicans were many times while pursuing an armed campaign - and then you seek support from others on the left - it is not so easy if you have been denouncing the same people with that kind of politically sectarian style.


What goes around comes around.

by JJ - non-aligned leftie Fri Nov 28, 2003 14:53

This thread is pathetic. Whether the SP got 50 votes or 5000 is not a measure of whether their analysis is right or relevant. Let's not forget that FF and FG take the large majority of the votes in the south, and very few here would argue that this makes their arguments or policies or approaches valid. Aside from McCann the left vote got squeezed - no shock to anyone, and anyone who believes that McCann's vote was down to the northern electorate musing "hmmm....I reject the SP version of trotskyism, being more attracted to the state capitalist interpretation of the USSR and the need to have more marches" is pretty well out of touch.

This election was a sectarian headcount, just like all the others.

by Huh! Fri Nov 28, 2003 14:57

The figure does matter. The SP and Barbour in particular expected to do a lot better. To say that its just a sectarian head count is a cop out. But its what I expect from the SP?

by Worried Fri Nov 28, 2003 15:31

Will the SP condem this sectarian attack on Sinn Fein members?

Loyalists threaten SF candidate
A Sinn Fein candidate has been threatened by loyalists at a count centre in County Down.

Paul Butler, who is standing in Lagan Valley, said loyalists entered the count at Dromore leisure centre on Thursday and threatened him.

"What I can only describe as a loyalist mob made their way into Dromore leisure centre," he said.


"They actually got in on the count and started threatening people, pointing at people like myself and other Sinn Fein members," Mr Butler said.

"We left the building, other police came on the scene.

"But then we were attacked in the car park, this loyalist mob was allowed to got around my car, shouting sectarian abuse, trying to stop the car getting out of the car park."

Mr Butler said the attack was an interference with the democratic process.

"If this happened somewhere else in the world, the British Government would be making a hue and cry about it," he said.

Mr Butler said he had raised the matter with the electoral office and would also be in contact with the Police Ombudsman about the incident.

"I felt under threat, nobody was doing anything about it," he said.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/northern_ireland/3246208.stm

Published: 2003/11/28 11:29:10 GMT

by Anti-Capitalist Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:14

From what I've heard the SP attended a meeting of the group European Anti-Capitalist Left.
Will your European candidate be alligned to this group for next years election?

by Another Anonymous Moaner Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:20

With the solitary exception of McCann's personal vote, the results of every candidate who tried to stand on a socialist platform were low. From the SEA in East "London"derry through the SP in Belfast to the Workers Party all over, the results were fairly uniform. I suspect that even McCann's personal vote was squeezed and his total will come as a disappointment to those who had imagined that he had an outside chance of a seat.

That was predictable in advance and doesn't make the decision of the people involved to stand against the sectarian tide in very difficult circumstances any less admirable.

This being Indymedia, we have just seen a succession of anonymous moaners attack them for it. That truly is shameful.

Congratulations to the HOPE campaign on its victory. I don't know the candidate or how good he will prove to be if the assembly ever sits again but the result is welcome at least in so far as it shows that people in the North aren't always doomed to put sectarianism first.

by anti-sectarian Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:23

The Socialist Party condemns ALL sectarian violence and attacks, no matter what side of the divide they come from.

It's a pity Sinn Fein could never bring itself to condemn the sectarian violence and attacks of the IRA.

NEITHER ORANGE NOR GREEN - BUT RED

by Hebe Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:26

Is on those who refuse to assess the reasons why the SP and WP got such derisory votes. Its because their Loyalism Lite and Milk and Water policies offer no alternative.

The SP & WP deserve no congratulations. I expect the WP will learn nothing. But hopefully the SP will have a genuine examination of why a Trade Union leader only got 167 votes in a largely wWorking Class constituency.

by Worried Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:29

What do you have to say about the election results?

Its a pity you couldnt condemn the Loyalist Picket of Harryville Church. The SP actually called the SWP sectarian because they staged a counter picket in support of the Parishioners. Even Robert Saulter of the Orange Order came to support the Parishioners at Harryville but the SP would not.

by Steelie Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:38

2586 votes
554 - Nelis (SF)
501 - Ramsey (SDLP)
498 - Bradley (SDLP)
441 - McCartney (SF)
55 - Hamilton (UUP)

Which is easily enough for the SDLP to hang on to their second seat at the expense of SF.

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:39

what do you expect people to think? but on the other side it was the first time out, the election (relative) successes didn't come in the south over night either. Can't help but notice the fact of people very being happy the fact that a non sectarian left candidate did badly. this is very very worrying for indymedia. Has it gone so badly that people prefer to see a victory for outright (religious) sectarian parties rather than socialist candidates? Seems to be that th (political) sectarianism is getting deep rooted here.
As for the result of course questions will be asked and discussions but its very sad to see the delight in the lefts bad showing here very very sad. And almost guarentees these discussions won't take place on indymedia which is a shame.

by Hebe Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:43

I take no joy but you reap what you sow. Sucess doesnt come overnight but if you are honest then you will admit that both the vote gained by CWI candidates and CWI membership has shrunk drastically in the North over the last 20 years.

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:46

Whaich candidates are those excatly?

by Major Woody Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:55

HS the delight in the poor SP showing comes from previous SP comments on indymedia. SP members have taken the piss out of the SWP for running in elections without having a base in the community. They have been also using the term micro left for some of the other organisations likely to run in the local elections in Dublin. The election results show the northern SP to be a micro left group without a base in the community and people are now throwing back previous SP rhetoric in your face. Sectarian, of course, but sectarian in the CWI tradition. You only seem to have a problem with it when others do it.

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 16:58

As far as I'm aware the rifondazione communista amongst others are trying to organise a european slate for the euro elections. I would strongly support the sp joining.

by Hebe Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:03

Then check how CWI candidates did in elections over the last 20 years. You could use old copies of the Militant as a guide.

by a guy called satan Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:08

The people who seem happy that your party didn't do well are the same people who are pleased enough to see other pro- imperialist parties fare badly.You call yourselves a left , non -sectarian party but other people don't see you that way . If you support the Harryville picketers and the orange orders "right" to march down the Garvaghy Rd that means you are on the side of the bigots. When you start opposing the bigots genuine leftists will support you .Get it?

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:13

I don't know about that, we refused to go into alliance with the swp for those reasons, (amongst others) but we never opposed any of their candidates. i don't remember attacks such as this. And the term mirco-party as far as I remember being introduced by iosf, about us amongst others. the problem here is alot of people talk about the sp as if we are some sort of major "official" communist party and forget we are still tiny. As far as the swp I congratulated them after the last election and as far as I remember the vast majority of spers who named themselves weren't so nasty. Anons are anons and I don't defend any of them because I don't know who they are or what party they are in (if any). And anyway RBB did quite well. Still whether its spers or swpers taking delight in each others bad elections is still very sad and makes open debate on indymedia much more difficult. its more entertaining maybe but definitely not very useful. This is the point all indymedia is now is people attacking each other with very little actual debate. Its point scoring generally with a few exceptions. And as I said makes actual useful debate much more difficult. And I include activists from all groups including the sp and the anarchists in this.

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:17

This is excatly what i'm talking about, stop talking shite and tell me what candidates. or at least something general, tell me why you believe the vote has gone down and what should be done about it. How has our policies changes in the last 20 years and/or activity on the ground. Stop point scoring and say something useful.

by Hebe Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:23

I am not going to do your research for you. You seem to know a lot about the CWI and its history in Ireland. I find it hard to believe that you are unaware of the various guises under which the CWI stood in the North over the years.

If you dont then you should consult some of the few remaining CWI oldtimers in the North. However I think you would be well advised to do your own research, its the best way to learn.

As for how your policies moved more towards Loyalism - I think John Throne has covered that quite well in his 2 open letters and his comments on the previous election thread.

hs - Stop acting stupid.

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:28

Hebe you're point scoring, i asked you to say something and all you say is "i'm not doing your research for you". Now you mentioned John Throne he while critisising us always puts points forward and suggestions. That is the difference between point scoring and debate. if you believe what you say back it up, one liners are pretty useless, if you have a point make it.

by C'mon Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:29

John Throne, Denis Tourish or Marc Mulholland would enlighten hs and the young puppies about past CWI results in the black north. Some did better than Bill Websters 73 votes in 1981.

by mel Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:30

Just wondereing whether he didn't bother attending the dail for a vote to send UN troops to help subjugate another country or... worse?

All I know was he was in the Dail before and after the 'debate' on Liberia -- where was he during it?

by Hebe Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:30

You are the one who needs to make points. Its the SP who have suffered derisory results. Are you really ignorant of the CWIs history?

by hs - sp Fri Nov 28, 2003 17:37

look if you want to debate what you think is wrong with our policies etc fine i'll discuss it with you anytime, but you still haven't actually said anything. Which is all i'm trying to say. Critisise us yes, but actual say something! And I may or may not agree with you. I have to go to work now but I'll come back in a day or two and check the thread. If you just want to gloat fine thats your choice. If you have any points you'd like to make i'd be happy to hear them. otherwise there's not much point is there? In reality you just drive sp members away from your point of view (which i still don't know by the way). Anyway i'm trying to discuss with people over indymedia so if you're interested in debate please tell me what you think. if not gloat away.

by Anti-Capitalist Fri Nov 28, 2003 18:05

"As far as I'm aware the rifondazione communista amongst others are trying to organise a european slate for the euro elections. I would strongly support the sp joining."

Are you not aware that your party was represented at the last meeting of this body?
Has this not been discussed in the SP?

by matt Fri Nov 28, 2003 18:26

If I stood as Mickey Mouse in my home area and delivered enough leaflets I would do better than the SP. Your're a joke. And save that crap about sectarian parties because that's not what you were telling people in East Belfast. Or don't the UUP, DUP and PUPcount as sectarian parites? And to make matters worse you have to drag in nonsense about petitions in Brazil!! Who gives a fuck. Did Higgins ever open his mouth about repression here? No. So save it for your adolscent masturbatory fantasies about the world revolution. Now I'm off to have a few pints with real people living a real struggle and we'll be spending our "vast corporate donations". Get a life boys .....

by sumdumguy Fri Nov 28, 2003 18:55

As an imdy leftie I am saddened each day here, shouldnt we be more united as left wingers instead of attacking a party for trying to get elected, I couldnt even read all this thread it turned my stomach.

Sad.

Well done to SF and commiserations SP but well done for trying.

by sp member (personal capacity) Fri Nov 28, 2003 19:55

The vote for sp candidates was not a suprise to members in the north our guess at the vote would have ranged between 50-250 this was based on past left votes, the conditions that the election was held in and our electorial base in the areas.

Our target in the election was to raise ideas on the door step, run a high profile campaign in the areas and sink roots for the future. All of these where acheived so from that point of view the campaign was a success.

I would point out that we are extremely proud of the fight we put up and off our candidates, both have a long record as fighters for their class and will no doubt continue that fight.

Lastly can I thank all those who helped in the campaign all your work was great and has layed the basis for the development of a socialist alternative in belfast.

by SP - you i termed long ago : the "red" block. Fri Nov 28, 2003 20:25

don't worry about a thing, it was just one of the HMG designated elections that occured this week, you are along with the SWP and SEA on the "red" block.
And for the moment, we don't have a place for you in northern ireland /Northern Ireland/Ulster/wee six fortified counties assembly institution thing. But you are very much in our "assembly". And like we decide @ the end of the day, what goes where, and who goes where on the big monopoly board of your democracy. Remember we never clarified where either SF or DUP were. We sort of fudged it all by allowing SF to be "green" and watching how they promoted their "left turn", and generally saying very little about the DUP.
We have not forgotten ye "red block", and you too, "will have your day". Meanwhile, my friends watch what happens next.

by John Meehan Fri Nov 28, 2003 21:50

J Breslin enquired about Fourth International supporters in Brazil who are members of the PT (Workers' Party) -

(note to editors - I realise this a little "offf topic", but I am doing my best to answer a legitimate question on what to do about political parties which are implementing right wing policies - especially if you happen to be a leftwinger opposed to thos policies)

The interview below explains what is happening because of Senator Heloisa Helena's refusal to endorse right wing measures being carried out by the administration headed by PT President Lula.

I have no wish to open a diversionary thread on this issue here - what I will do soon is post a few links with information for those interested in pursuing the subject.

Again an ivitation - take a look ath the petition defending Helena Heloisa nad others, consider signing it, and asking other leftwingers to do likewise.

PT RADICAL STAYS AND FIGHTS

At the very end of September, Heloisa Helena, the senator at the forefront of opposition to the Brazilian government’s right-wing economic policies, announced she had no intention of walking out of the governing Workers’ Party (PT). If the leadership really wanted to silence her, they would have to pay the price of expelling her. Heloisa, who is a member of the Socialist Democracy Tendency (which organises supporters of the Fourth International in the PT), has been under pressure to stand in next year’s local elections for Mayor of Maceio, the capital of her home state of Alagoas. The PT leadership postponed until the end of October the meeting that was to decide whether to expel Heloisa and three other members of parliament. This would be after the deadline for registering as a candidate in those elections and was widely seen as a manoeuvre to persuade Heloisa to leave the PT of her own accord in time to register under the name of another party. At least two other parties on the left had offered her their ticket. But the former teachers’ leader whose term as senator is now coming towards its end, has decided to stay and fight within the PT.
Heloisa spoke to Brazil’s biggest daily newspaper, the Folha de Sao Paulo, about her decision.

Folha: By staying in the PT, have you given up standing for Mayor of Maceio ?
Heloisa Helena: I am not going to be dictated to by the electoral calendar. I’m putting my name down for the PT primaries, I want to stand for mayor, but I’m not going to do what they want. As a girl growing up in a poor family, I often had to enter by the back door. I’ve no intention of leaving by it. It’s not my style. If they want me to leave, they’ll have to go through with their show trial and point their totalitarian, neo-stalinist finger at me.

Folha: Aren’t you afraid of expulsion ?
Heloisa: I was brought up out in the drought-ridden backlands of the Northeast, where you learn to live with solitude and hunger. The presidential palace cannot punish me for voting in favour of the positions we’ve defended for so long in the PT, and which have now been changed without any democratic debate. Those positions were decided by our last national conference.

Folha: Do you still believe in Lula’s government ?
Heloisa: In the first nine months the economic policy has been conservative and subservient to the markets, continuing that of the previous government. This could change. Not because the government itself decides to change, but because of the pressure of objective reality, because of pressure from the social movements and from many of the party’s members. It may be forced to change.

Folha: What are you most disappointed about in the Lula government ?
Heloisa: Being submitted to a process of expulsion while the government licks the boots of some of the biggest crooks in Brazilian politics. That really hurts. And I’m depressed by the huge chasm that has opened up between what we promised people when we were in opposition and what we are doing now in government.

by John Meehan Fri Nov 28, 2003 21:56

Petition defending Brazilian PT militants can be seen at the link below -

you can also, at this site, look at the International Viewpoint link, and read loads of material on the Fourth International and the PT government

http://www.isg-fi.org.uk/index.htm

by Stephen Redgrave - Trinity Socialist Party Fri Nov 28, 2003 22:04 socialist_tcd at hotmail dot com

It has come to my attention that some one posting under the SP claimed that the Trinity Socialist Party had organised a protest to meet Aine Ni Chonnail (I may have spelt her name wrong) speaking at the Hist meeting.

The Trinity SP called no such event, I can assure people of this. Shane recieved a number of phone calls on Wednesday night from people asking him about a protest which neither he nor I knew nothing of.

Therefore may I clarify that the TSP had nothing to do with calling any protest in Trinity nor so was the protest ours. Whomever placed the notice on this thread is not a member of the Trinity Socialist Party. The TSP had made no decision to call a protest or otherwise we had not been contacted about any such event and were generally unaware of any protest. Anything else is not truthful.

For more please contact the TSP at [email protected]

I apologise to anyone who went along to the protest under the intention of taking part as the TSP - the posting on this forum is clearly someone with an agenda against the TSP.

Stephen Redgrave
On behalf of the Trinity Socialist Party

by Waldo - Socialist Party Sat Nov 29, 2003 12:00 omaghsocialist at hotmail dot com

I am the Secretary of Omagh Branch of Socialist Youth, and to the idiot that says we only opportunistically mentioned Deeny after he got elected, got your facts straight. As with many latent bourgeois defeatists on this site, you have spoken without actually knowing what you're saying.

My comrades and I were out on the streets every week for hours for a month before the elections, urging to people to vote for Deeny and leave the sectarians behind, putting forward our viewpoint and wider programme. We used the local media to support him, and I was interviewed by the Ulster Herald. Dr. Deeny personally thanked us for our activity and whatever small contribution it made to his success.

People on this site may be better employed on the streets doing something, rather than initiating pointless sectarian arguments on the internet, the land of make-believe.

by Chris Henry (personal capacity) - Socialist Party Sat Nov 29, 2003 12:29 lavosfanfiction at hotmail dot com 07743478920

I think this myth that the SEA somehow shows the way forward in regard to left-unity was shown up badly in regard to Marion Baur's performance in East Londonderry. Formerly my own area, a vote of 137 simply consolidates the argument that McCann is a public figure, and his 2,257 votes showed this to be the case, apart from any uprising of the working-class in Foyle.

Saying that, I personally encouraged my friends in East Londonderry to vote for Baur, and I was genuinely pleased to see McCann's vote; it was certainly an important step forward, if not quite the step forward that some of the supporters of the SWP/SEA appear to believe it was. I never believed that Marion Baur would gain any sort of vote in this constituency, but she was the only alternative avaliable apart from the usual breed of sectarian political parties we have to deal with in this country - Nationalist AND Unionist. This loyalist argument thrown out is an interesting one, considering I've never seen it in my two years as a member of the SP and over the years also in regard to my parents, who were both members of Militant. But I'm sidetracking.

In regard to this claim that we expected to get over 1,000 votes, I've been working on this election for weeks in South Belfast (since I'm living there now; I'm at Queens) and the first time I heard it was here. I'm not going to go into specifics (I don't have a lot of time for Indymedia and therefore I think it's the wrong place for such information, littered with "cyber class-warriors" as it is) but this was certainly not the case. The result fell into parameters expected by many of us.

As for the "left-unity" claim, the SWP are one matter, but in regard to the Workers Party, if you ever see me participating in a "socialist" electoral block with those guys, please shoot me. The Workers Party are post-Stalinist class traitors, and have no place in the left with their own brand of counter-revolutionary reformism. If anyone had a glimpse of their election material, you'll have to agree with this consensus. It may not "work without the Workers Party", but I'll certainly not be intending to work with them in any sort of left alliance in the near future. Call me politically sectarian, but I'm a revolutionary - that's the long and short of it.

Anyway, we gained what we set out to acheive during the election; a campaign to make a left-alternative known in South and East Belfast. The result, in my own personal opinion, was always the secondary factor - the factor was building the roots for class struggle on the ground. Disagree with me if you will (and you will!) but I believe that some things are more important in regard to the left in this country than the result of this election.

by Darren C - SP(personal capacity) Sat Nov 29, 2003 13:38

Sorry for the delay in replying to your 'question' Concerned and responding to your allegations that no members of the Socialist Party were present at the protest against against Aine Ni Chonaill, but as you know very well, I am a member of the Socialist Party and was present at the protest both in a personal capacity and as a member of the Anti-Deportation Campaign in UCD. Instead, you refuse to shed your anonymity and reveal exactly who you are, seeing as there was only a handful of us present at the protest.

It has been since clarified by the SP in Trinity, on another thread, that they were not responsible for posting the message on this site urging people to protest against the visit of this racist demagouge.

The SP have a very proud record in fighting racism and fascism. Take for example the recent campaign initiated by the SP in Trinity against the BNP youth organiser, Tony Wentworth, recruiting on campus. We very claerly advocated a position of No Platform for Fascists, including 'by any means necessary'. It was due to our efforts in mobilising workers, students and anti-fascist activists on this platform that the authorities in Trinity were forced to withdraw the invitation to Wentworth from speaking on campus.

by Markets Man Sat Nov 29, 2003 13:56

Now that its all over its interesting to read the SP members comments on the election: We did woefully but it does'nt matter cos what counts is participating not winning. If they had done even moderately well they'd be crowing about their great breakthrough.

The fact is that all the left, not just the SP, have failed dismally to make a breakthrough in the, admitedly extremely difficult, situation in the North. There is a need for some fundamental rethinking, but to rethink you have to think for yourself in the first place, not just wait for the word from above.

As to the SP member who wont have anything to do with the WP cos they are not revolutionaries, of course theyre not, unless you consider Building Site rackets revolutionary,but here you run into three problems comrade:

1. The SP in the south have no problem dealing with the WP and in fact have asked them for transfer pacts on a number of occasions, especially when Joe Higgins and Tomas Mac Giolla were running in Dublin West during the 1990s.

2. Your candidate Jim Barbour is not a revolutionary socialist but an Old Labour style reformist with a dash of loyalism thrown in. He would be very much at home in the old NILP. His candidacy for the SP was opportunism on both parts. See how long he remains in the SP after that dismal outing.

3. The SP constantly advocates the formation of a broad party which would include by definition some left reformists.

Kinda messy isnt it, does'nt lend itself to simplistic party lining.

by Steelie Sat Nov 29, 2003 16:11

In SP land, it seems that phrases like "latent bourgeois defeatists", "post-Stalinist class traitors", and "counter-revolutionary reformism" are thrown around. Says a lot about the internal regime when such antiquated and formulaic terminology is their language of choice when describing those that they don't agree with.

Ya wha??

by Ha! Ha! Sat Nov 29, 2003 18:20

For Deenys election! You guys are a joke. Howmany members do you have in Omagh?

As you well know Barbour was openly stating that anything less than 1,000 votes would be disaster. Barbour is a union leader and you say this is an acceptable vote? Your lies only work on the self deluded.

As for you blaming a sectarian headcount,this reminds of Brechts satire on how the German CP in 1953 decided there was a need to elect a new people!

Yes, the SP will certainly have to elect a new working class which is more responsive.

by SP member Sat Nov 29, 2003 22:27

Interesting comments here relating to MacGiolla and the Dublin West By-Election.

1) The SP did not ask the WP for an election pact in Dublin West and to the best of my knowledge have never done so. In fact during the Dublin West by-election WP canvassers, in their then heartland of Ballyfermot, were asking people to vote MacGiolla No1 and Lenihan No2, with Higgins to be voted for last on the ballot paper. There was a significant number of ballot papers at the count that produced this voting pattern. It is debatable if it prevented Joe Higgins from winning the by-election, but that was clearly the intention. If people are interested please check the transfer pattern of MacGiolla's votes in the By-election.

2) Although I don't know Jim Barbour personally, I welcome his membership of the SP and I hope he is one of many new TU activists joining the SP.

3) Yes the SP does call for the establishment of a broad left party and yes this party will by its nature be reformist. The SP would intend to operate as an open Revolutionary platform within that party.

For Steelie: The WP are a spent force and have been for many years. Their primary reasons for their existance at present is to preserve the drinking clubs they control.

For Ha Ha: Please try and learn how to read. SP members in Omagh campaigned for Deeny. Did the SP get him elected - of course not, but Waldo never claimed we did.

by bemused - pissed of with all political parties Sun Nov 30, 2003 03:52

Aint you all heard of the " war of the flea idea" it was a wee man called Mao se Tung i believe and forgive me as i am young and not as learnt as you all may be but - this war of the flea idea basically states thats as one a flea will never accomplish the 'taking down of anything' but if all the fleas combine their efforts and work together agreed or disagreed on tactics attacked the target in their ways as a united force they'd suceed - its just an idea ???? maybe its worth a thought

by Michael P Sun Nov 30, 2003 06:24

We have tried many times to unite the Left but the SWP just won't see the bigger picture. They keep doing things which are divisive like in the Trade Union elections - putting up their own candidate when it was clear this would split the vote.

If we could get rid of the SWP the Left would finally have a chance to present a united front to the capitalists.

by socialist Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:19

I see that the SP people are refusing to address any of the questions raised in my contribution. They hide behind the work of the CWI (did they run in the election?) over the last 20 years as an excuse for the truth which is that none of their candidates ever did a fucking moments work in the communities that they expected to elect them. Joe and Claire have consistant work records in their constituencies, and I respect that. The problem with both the SP and the WP in NI is that they sit on their arses and then use the excuse of sectrianism to cover their inactivity.

As for some of the SP comments, it is obovious that their youth wing is, as Lenin put it in the past, suffering from "an infantile disorder" and soaked itself in Party zealotry. I think Marx advised us all to "question everything" and, while I don't want to dampen your revolutionary zeal, I'm sure he would have included Party lines.

It is crazy to see the antics of the SP on the Scottish Socialist Party and for an Irish SP member to come out and state " Yes the SP does call for the establishment of a broad left party and yes this party will by its nature be reformist. The SP would intend to operate as an open Revolutionary platform within that party" is beyond comprehension. Yes we support a workers party but not the SSP despite trying to destroy it from within, opposing the revolutionary demand for Scottish independence, and arguing that independence is divisive, nationalist, and a red herring for the BRITISH working class!

How does that fare in NI? Are demands for a united Ireland less credible than Loyalist demands for retaining the "Union"? I could see the twisted (non marxist) logic of supporting a socialist "British Isles"

by mastermind - subject Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:35

Good evening Mr Zino Veav, you now have 10 questions on your specialist subject 'the similarities between the Trot SP and the Stalinist WP'

Your starter for 10
Q Can you Name 4 terms of abuse that either SP or WP members would use to describe other socialists

A Social Democrats, Reformists, Nationalists, and Ultra Leftists.

Correct

Q What ties the SP & the WP in their analysis of Northern Ireland?

A A belief that maintaining the Union is a legitimite and rightful entitlement of the protestant working class and a united Ireland isnt

Corrrect!

Q How often have the leaderships of these Parties been deselected by their members at Conferences?

A Never
Corrrrect!

Q What is the internal organising "system" operated in both Party's that smothers democracy, castigates dissenters and rules from the top down?

A Democratic Centralism
Corrrrrect!

Q On the Russian revolution, where are the similarities?

A Both organisations believe that the end justifies the means

Corrrrrrect!

Q Former members, what is the similar approch there?

A General banishment, refusal to acknowledge the past members work for the Party, A general boycott by Party members

Partially corrrrrrrect, you omit one other similarity

A Oh yes, sorry. They automatically engage in a campaign of villification.

Corrrrrrrrrect

And finally

Q Can you tell me on specific difference

A The SP pray to Trotsky and the WP to Stalin

Corrrrrrrrrrrrrect!

You have scored maximum points in your specialist round of course the biggest similarity that you overlooked is that they will both never take power in Ireland, and we are all particularly relieved to know this to be true.

by CWI head (personal capacity) Mon Dec 01, 2003 13:13

The CWI are NOT trying to sabbotage the SSP. At the time of the SSP formation the CWI's position was that it was premature to found a braoder party at that time. However if was formed and the CWI has joined and participated in the party.

The SSP has had some great success recently including in the recent election. The CWI members in the SSP are active members of the SSP, they campaigned hard for the SSP, they stood as candidates for the SSP in the elections, they want to see the SSP grow and become a mass party.

The CWI also raises some critisisms about the leadership of the SSP. This does not mean that the CWI wants to bring down the SSP, far from it. Do you think that it is the right of SSP members to raise differences within the organisation? Do not think that groups have the right to organise within the SSP?

by hs - sp Mon Dec 01, 2003 15:33

well that wasn't so bad. On militants past record, couldn't really have done much worse.
On the SSP, very much part of it from day one.
On the language of the youth, probably not helpful, but you didn't read what Lenin said in is pamplet on ultra leftism about that, understandable and inevitable as far as I remember. Still beats papist traitors and black prod in my book : )

by socialist Mon Dec 01, 2003 15:37

yes I agree that CWI members in Scotland should argue their position and influence the SSP after all they are in the SSP. I have a problem when the English CWI Peter Toffe tell the Scottish CWI members what their position is.

by mattt Mon Dec 01, 2003 19:08

a discussion on the SP's pathetic performance in the elections becomes diverted to the Scottish Socialist Party. Why not wake up to the fact that you are irrelevant and that even when you attempt to wrap up your warped politics in the tired clothes of municipal Walkerite labourism, you still get nowhere. And as if that is not enough you have the cheek to blame the electorate for your failure because they weren't far sighted enough to see the pearls being spread before them. Give up...

by SP member Mon Dec 01, 2003 22:16

How irrelevant are the SP to politics in the North?

In electoral terms, we are irrelevant, as are all other left wing forces at this time.

In industrial terms, the SP is far from irrelevant. NIPSA, CWU, FBU etc. Remember it was members of the SP that played a leading role in the term time dispute.

In political terms, it would be diplomatic to say that we are not as influencial as we would like to be. There are several reasons for this, the over-riding one being the sectarian nature of politics in the North.

by C'mon Tue Dec 02, 2003 18:20

"In electoral terms, we are irrelevant, as are all other left wing forces at this time."

Errr, no actually. McCann got over 2,000 1st prefs standing on a revolutionary platform. The SP got a pitiful vote standing on a Loyalism Lite, Reformist platform.

"In industrial terms, the SP is far from irrelevant. NIPSA, CWU, FBU etc. Remember it was members of the SP that played a leading role in the term time dispute."

Yes and that member proved how irrelevant he was politically by getting 167 1st prefs. SP members get elected to TU positions because they are good TU activists. Not because of their SP membership.

"In political terms, it would be diplomatic to say that we are not as influencial as we would like to be. There are several reasons for this, the over-riding one being the sectarian nature of politics in the North."

So, the working class are dumb & sectarian because they wont vote for the SP! You should pass a vote of no confidence in the working class and elect a new one!

by Anonymous carper Tue Dec 02, 2003 18:36

McCann did not stand on a "revolutionary platform". The 17 points of the Socialist Environmental Alliance's platform were available on its website go and look at it. There is nothing revolutionary about it and I doubt if anyone involved in the SEA would claim otherwise.

The other SEA candidate got 130 vote, which is a little less than the vote achieved by the SP candidates. McCann has earned a respectable personal vote, and well done to him, but any other SEA candidate in Derry would have got a vote in line with the other SEA, SP and WP candidates.

The Socialist Party is a small organisation in the North, with some influence in the unions and none electorally. They could have told you that themselves, without the anonymous carping.

by ! Tue Dec 02, 2003 18:53

Are far to the left of the SP platform. Crucially, the SEA platform was Anti Imperialist.

by SEA supporter Tue Dec 02, 2003 19:09

This is what the Socialist Environmental Alliance had to say about the national question. I agree with every word of it but I don't think that the word "anti-imperialist" has much to do with it, do you?

The SEA manifesto wasn't "revolutionary" and it wasn't "anti-imperialist". It was a good honest left wing manifesto as it was designed to be. Much like that of the SP in fact. Which is why the SEA also called for an SP vote.


"Socialists are opposed to the constitution in the South,
which enshrines Catholic doctrine and the rights of
private property. We are against the British constitution,
with its hered itary monarchy. And we are against the
constitutional arrangement represented by the Agreement,
because of the way it entrenches sectarianism.
Throughout these islands, however, we get on with the
business of organising to defend working class interests,
opposing sectarianism, racism, etc., and fighting for a fairer
society. We look forward to the day when constitutional
arrangements will reflect a new reality.
It’s reg ularly said by other parties that there’s no
alternative to the way things work under the Agreement
except a return to war. What they mean is that they have no
alternative. But we advocate a better way of working. It’s
expressed in our campaigning, in our statements and, briefly,
in these pages.
Peace will be strengthened by the people on both sides
who have been left behind advancing together. Peace is
endangered by political elites who have lost touch with those
they came from fighting over which community is doing
better in the share-out of scarce resources.
We will work within the As sembly and, even more
importantly, outside the formal arena. We see the future as
lying not in people looking to MLAs to deliver things for
t hem, but in people organising to change things for
themselves. The main function of a MLA should be to
encourage the marginalised and done down to mobilise and
fight back.
equality"

by John Meehan Wed Dec 03, 2003 16:15

A further reply to J Breslin's query on the Fourth International's attitude to the Lula PT government in Brazil - see below link to English translation of an article by Daniel Bensaid in the October 2 issue of Rouge, newsaper of the French Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire (LCR)

http://www.geocities.com/mnsocialist/lula.html