Solidarity pouring in

by Voter Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:29

We are still waiting for the answer to the question about the SEA. We know that the SWP are part of the alliance. What other groups are?

(Now I know that I'll be called a troll for asking this simple question, but just imagine if Bertie Ahern announced his candidacy for the 'capitalist republican alliance' - do you think that we'd have the right to know who they are? So let's have some answers please)

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 13:15

Although the SEA are to stand this time in Derry they have got much support elsewhere. What other groups are involved and who supports the Alliance? Well practically the people who contacted me in my own area {W/Belfast} to offer such support and involvement and with me now contacting others include, individual writers from the Blanket, leading local community workers, leading local womens and minority ethnic support workers, local trade union and low pay activists, 'green activists, local solidarity campaign activists' etc. None of the above are SWP although with the SWP of course being involved, with as I state myself to contact others within my locally - with this being reflected around Belfast and further afield.

by iosaf Thu Nov 06, 2003 13:22

It may be a good idea that left wing restricted civil servants like yourself may stand for election Davy, but can you vouch for all the other restricted civil servants?
Unless the "left" is unusually misrepresentated in such generally "formerly middle class or formerly working class secure tenure of employment" I wager and suggest that [split infinitive] some pretty disagreeable candidates may emerge from the civil service.

I for one would appreciate more info on the "point of info". Having previously been ignorant of it's existence. any from NIPSA up for explaining it to us?

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 14:27

The action will be taken on behalf of all 'restricted' civil servant of 'minor' rank. It is an issue of basic rights and is being taken under human rights legislation.There are many many more 'disagreeable' candidates that are not in the civil service whom do not stand so it does not mean hundreds of 'disagreeables' will be pouring in to put the heads above the line for all in the civil service to see , especially given the changing make up of the 'N.I civil service'. It has already been acknowledged at the last hearing that there is an issue to be addressed here, with human rights lawyers and organisations having stated that there may well be a fundemental issue of equality and rights to be contested here in relation to those minor ranks, and it is a wonder that it has taken so long for a challenge on this issue to be raised. Your are right though in stating 'formerly middle class ranks' as the overwhelminging majority of such workers in our branch {Nipsa} and everywhere else, some with ten years service earn only £12,00 to £12 500 pounds a year! It is these workers whom will benefit if they wish to put themselves forward but more importantly it is an issue of equality.

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 14:39

Sorry, Iosaf just incase you may be wondering, it is not me taking the case. Hope the post previous at least begins to address some of your points.

by Curious Thu Nov 06, 2003 14:54

Please answer the question: does the SEA include any organisation other than the SWP?

by IMC reader Thu Nov 06, 2003 14:56

Davy failed to mention any group, except the SWP, as part of the alliance. Though we understand that there are some 'individual' supporters...who are not SWP.

by Voter Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:12

"What other groups are involved and who supports the Alliance?" Well practically the people who contacted me in my own area {W/Belfast} to offer such support and involvement..."

Offering 'support' for the SEA in no ways means that they are 'involved' with the group. Otherwise the SP or SWP could claim many thousands of members on the basis of expressions of support. You know this well davy, so why are you avoiding the question?

I obviously wanted to know which groups are involved as members of the alliance, which practically means that they have representation on the steering committee of the alliance and have an input into decisions. Although I would still be happy to see a good vote for McCann, it really pisses me off that you have to play silly buggers like this with evasive answers about the group that he is standing for. If the capitalist parties displayed such dishonesty, evasiveness and contempt for voters, I assume that the SWP would be up in arms about it - so why do the SWP have to have worse ethics than the shower of crooks and liars that rule the roost at the moment?

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:15

Curious and IMC reader please try and take of the Blinkers and read what I write. The SEA is not to stand in Belfast but Derry, those that have 'contacted me' are well known persons {individuals} within the community {in my locality} whom wish to support and get involved in supporting the SEA candidates in Derry. If we were to eventually stand in Belfast {under whatever banner} then no doubt they would raise it within their various groups and organisations for support.

As for Davy failing to mention any group apart from individuals, I am getting bored with persons who raise points without actually reading what is said - 'In MY Locality' I am talking about {in relation to support and involvement} if you could have taken of the Blinkers for a mo you would have realised. Finally if you do genuinely want to know who is involved or how to get involved then give the SEA in Derry a ring or check out their upcoming site. Methinks though your attentions lay elsewhere.

On a personal note, for me and others in my locality even if we came together now under the platform of the SEA without anyone else to date it would be good enough, as firstly there is a belief that such a platform is neeeded against communal politics and secondly each in our own way would hold our own modest support.Obviously the SEA is and will be much broader than that as the people become aware of it and support continues to be built around N.Ireland as a whole.

The Anti Racist Network which I am involved in for example mushroomed when persons became aware both of it and as seeing it as an activist group prepared to stand above the rhetroic of our politicans. Signing off.

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:25

To 'Voter, 'Active support' as per my original post, again join the queue and take of the blinkers - read what I say.

And on being 'exasive', {MR Voter?} read suggestion above
Davy Carlin signing off.

by hs - sp Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:25

Wish the SEA and Eamon the best of luck in the election, the fact that any left candidate is standing in Derry whether or not the majority of supporters are in the SWP should be welcomed. He probably should have stood under the swp banner but thats his choice, and I don't think its a big secret what party he is in. If I was in Derry I would vote for him whatever about party differences.

by Voter Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:31

I did read it Davy and it did not answer the question.

The SP, for example has active support from many non-members, many of whom distribute leaflets and so on for the party. They would be lying if they claimed that they were part of the SP, since they have no input into the decision making process of the organisation. These people are properly known as 'supporters' not members of the party. It really is quite simple and for all your anti-sectarian platitudes, you are happily lying away with the best of them.

To underline the point. The question has now been asked a good dozen times on indymedia about what other groups are members of this alliance. The people who ask the questions have been abused as sectarians and there has not been a single honest attempt to answer the question. At this stage, any observer will have to assume that the SEA is in fact entirely run by the SWP in that all decisions are made by the SWP and that the SEA has no independent decision making ability whatsoever. If I am wrong, all you have to do is answer the question.

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 17:15

So if you are actually talking about 'membership etc etc rather than 'active support' then once again {myself} as a non member, but supporter, I again suggest if you are genuinely interested then phone them. You seem to think that I should know the membership of the Derry SEA, perhaps a mindset, but sorry to say I don't, as I don't a lot of campaigns I lend support to. I support it for its platform and I am confident in its aims as do all those persons whom have contacted me. If I felt the driving urge to know its entire membership as a supporter, {let alone as some one else} I would pick up the phone and ask them

Finally if you feel moved to hinting at me being a sectarian or whatever then so be it, that is your decision but please,

please my friend one prefers not to be called a lair.

by Voter Thu Nov 06, 2003 17:31

So, Davy, you finally come to answer 'I don't know'. Why didn't you start with that and save us all your dishonest attempts to avoid the question?

By the way, I do hope that McCann does well, although I doubt he will. The Shinners will play the 'a vote for McCann is a vote for Paisley' card and, given the dominance of sectarianism, it should work.

The only reason that I asked this question was because I genuinelly wanted to know what groups made up the alliance. I was interested in the idea of socialist and environmentalist groups coming together on an anti-sectarian platform and would even have considered going up to canvas for them if that had been the case. Sadly, it appears that this is not the case and that we are dealing with yet another SWP front.

I still hope McCann does well, but the idea that the SEA can post their press releases on indymedia and then refuse to answer any questions about who makes up the alliance and demand that I phone them if I want to know (I can guess what answer I'd get already), is extremely contemptuous of any idea of democracy. But I suppose that bourgeious ideas like that don't apply to the vanguard?

by Davy Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:40

On your first point, correct I do not know the entire membership of the alliance that I am not a member of, but would support. Not a very strange thing. Simliar one would say to the SP, CP or WP etc who may although not having attended any of the Anti Racist Network meetings would nevertheless I suggest support it. Yet they would not know all those in attendance and involved, until recently. Or similar to the Belfast Anti War Movement, whom while various left organisations supported as did many many others they would not have known of those organisations at the fore of it, again because they were not at meetings but nevertheless supported it.

As for avoiding the question, hmm, well I dealt with it within my own recent experience at a local level - as I stated fom the very onset 'in my own area', locally, locality, which I thought who's words would have been quite obvious to the objective reader. But I have learnt many read and contribute to this site.

Yet again like some you seem to have a mindset that I should know more, sorry but I don't. Rather than be dishonest I believe I have been open and fourthwrite, moreso than many on this site. Finally you seem also to have a problem with me 'a supporter', of the alliance, giving you simple advice that if you want further info that why not phone them, quite logical one would think. On that matter {and the reason I felt the need to reply} who in fact was it from the 'SEA' who demanded you phone if looking info, as you state 'a bit of honesty please'. Sigh

by Cynic Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:47

Be honest. The SEA is a SWP front. Why not admit it?

by Far seaing Thu Nov 06, 2003 20:44

What is it Davy? Do the Derry SWP just not bother telling the handful of Belfast SWP activists what they are up to? Did they launch a political alliance and didn't see fit to tell you in Belfast who they have allied with?

I mean you are here calling on people to vote for the SEA, trying to encourage people to travel to Derry to help them out, yet you tell us that you don't even know who the SEA involves?

As the last poster said, try a bit of honesty Davy. You do know what other organisations the SEA involves. The answer is none. The SEA is the SWP with a couple of other people attached. It's a classic SWP front.

You know it. I know it. Is it really so hard to admit it?

by iosaf Fri Nov 07, 2003 00:01

that was clear. You tend to be "clear".
Thank You.

by Davy Fri Nov 07, 2003 09:51

Don't tend to reply to such anon post but had a bit of a giggle at 'far seeing', when he said that, 'I {me} know's what other organisations that the SEA involves', despite me giving an answer that would be quite obvious to an objective reader. 'Far seeing' I would suggest if you genuinely can read my mind you are in the wrong business.


Yet I have learnt such especially around the building of the Anti War Movement in the North. Therefore with my points on this post raised and 'elements', no longer able to take on those points politically so they then revert to type. With the shouts from the back of, 'SWP Front', A Classic SWP Front, 'A Handful of Belfast activists' etc, etc. Yet I have heard it all before when persons move from in part poltical debate to 'a poltical' rants if they feel the battle has been lost.

Yet this new one of well 'we are right' {WHY?}, 'because we can read your mind and we know you are wrong', gave me a giggle and is one that I must add to my list. I term such a knee jerk re action within the failure of political debate as 'Political Inevitablity'. This is driven by in many cases a mindset of living in a coocoon of yesteryear, partnered by a vicious poltical sectarianism and driven by protectionism and internalism of mainly ones politics or affiliation, although I have found other reasons may come into play. It is a mindset I have had the opportunity to study close hand in Belfast from one of its most obvious candidates and a comrade of some of those who posted, in which I may produce an article on such {political Inevitability and its mindset = A case study}} as it intrigues me so.

Despite this I continue to post on this site as there are genuine and progressive forces on this site I could hold respect for and enjoy engaging while acknowledging our dfferences, including some whom I have engaged with in both this and on my previous engagement in relation to the post 'Dublin support for MCCann' Back to work but will return for other such discussions, 'and for some {the mind readers} it seems that they believe that they could even know what discussions I will return to' - Spooky,. Davy C

by Anonymous Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:34

You are pretty much the only Swp head who regularly answers the critics of the Swp on Indymedia. And due to the amount of criticisms I think the Swp should be answering some amount of them.

Good to see some support coming in from the Sp as well.

I for one enjoy your posts and there are indeed plenty of genuine and progressive forces on this site so I encourage you to keep posting.

by tahoola Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:50

In every election there are always people that will help out with distributing leaflets, canvassing, postering etc etc who are not members of the party in question. They could be described as supporters. If the SEA is just the SWP and some supporters then it really is just an SWP front and they should stand Eamonn as a SWP candidate. However if there are actually some distinctly and seperatly organised organisations also part of, and in the leadership of the SEA, well then they are right to say the SEA is not the SWP. I have my suspicions that there are no other organisations involved really in the SEA? Maybe someone could clarify

by Voter Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:10

Please spare us your heartfelt accounts of your noble motivations, I am not interested in you or your motivations; obviously you feel that you just must tell us what a great guy you are, rather than answering the questions

I _am) interested in knowing which organisations constitute this alliance. If you don't know, just don't answer, but please spare me your drivel.

by Spooky Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:43

This, who is the SEA, is reminding me of the Paxman - Michael Howard interview.
Pax asked him eighteen times to answer a simple question and he didn't.
Is there something of the night about Davy?

by Steelie Fri Nov 07, 2003 13:06

Reading back over the 3 relevant threads, I count about 30 questions which boil down to "which groups make up the Socialist Environmentalist Alliance?". There have been 0 answers. The closest thing we have got is Davy's fascinating insights into the psychopathology of sectarianism - and that is not very close at all.

So, Davy, which one of the following is true:

a) you really don't know who makes up the SEA in which case you belong to a party which enters into electoral alliances with organisations without telling its members in the only other large city in the 6 counties. If that is the case, you should leave your party at once as you are not even being told, never mind consulted, about important political decisions that your organisation is taking. How can you blindly defend them if this is the case?

b) Davy knows the composition of the SEA and doesn't want to share it with us since he knows that it would not be well received. Perhaps this is because the SEA is an SWP front or perhaps because it includes forces that the SWP would not like to be seen to publicaly ally itself too, or for some other reason.

I really can't think of any other plausible explanation.

by The return of the Saint Fri Nov 07, 2003 13:40

Calm down Mr Voter. Noble {Noblity} and a saint well I have been called some things - Oh by the way once again, Who excatly was it from the 'SEA', as you stated, 'demanded' that you should phone? A wee bit of honesty please, and 'if you don't know then {what was that, that comes next?}

And if you are genuinely interested in finding out whom is in the alliance, as a supporter of it, dare I give that logical answer again, NAA, I think you at this stage know.

As for spooky well when one answers a question there is a difference between those whom look objectively at what has been said and then there are others who look at what they want said for their own objective, fortunately, and the reason I still post is that there are many of the first such persons thankfully still on the site.

And with that persons can make of these discussions what they may, for me I shall reply in most part in the future to those genuine and progressive forces on this site but still at times will respond for some light hearted banter and entertainent of those whom fall into the net of 'political inevitability. So for now I genuflect {Saintly} and bow out {Noble} and go now to offer support with many others from Belfast to the platform and candidates of the SEA. Davy C

by Davy Fri Nov 07, 2003 13:43

'Davy Knows', So steelie's another mind reader, {must be this site}.