CLARE & JOE - 1 MONTH EACH

by sooty the millie is better than snooty snobby stuck up bitch Wed Sep 24, 2003 00:14

Joe higgins is gorgeous. The man has ruggard good looks, integrity, and the courage/backbone to stand up for his convictions and principles. Many bored housewives find these qualities irresistable. Not to mention tough prison street cred.

by Justin Morahan - Peace People (as an individual) Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:32

The PAYE citizen pays tax on pay earned. This is an enormous chunk out of
your paycheque for work done - but you say "Fair play, the Government needs
money to run the country, health, education, transport, justice systems
etc."
The etc doesn't include roads though, so you pay motor taxation. The
Government doesn't look after the welfare of people who suffer from road
accidents - so you pay insurance to private companies. This has increased
by 60% over the past 15 months. Meanwhile, the Governmnet says it hasn't
enough - so it puts tax on everything you eat: bread, butter, jam, potatoes,
flour, tea, coffee, etc etc, alcohol, tobacco, petrol,your electricity bill, your
gas bill, your clothes, your restaurant bill, your entertainment charge,
theatre, the cinema, football, races, betting, etc etc. (no room for full list).
When the plumbing goes wrong and you have to call in help, the
Government puts a tax on that. Same for ESB, same for carpenter, painter,
gardener, - every home service.
Car repair tax, Parts tax, if you do it yourself. Tax on plastic bags (only
to save the environment, we understand)
People continue to complain only about income tax. So a sage arises in
Government called Mary Harney and plans to reduce income tax. Immediately
everything else goes up in price - but the Government must make up its
losses too. So: they look around at other areas of life where they can find
even more money: Bin Tax, Water tax . . .
Of course, the money is desperately needed. There are megabucks needed for
the tribunals for a conscientious Government to show that they will not
allow errant T.D.s and Councillors to get away scot free, and we all know
that lawyers and barristers cost money (plus tax). When you consider that
some of the cases, involving a mere £5000 will take six years to process in
one of these tribunals, you can see how the money is so badly needed. Add
to that private Government air services, white elephants, etc. What can a
poor Government do?
Incidentally, it was the same Mary Harney who said at the time of
pummeling us into Nato via PfP: "We are the Government and we can (do what we want)
Later came Nice 2, Iraq, Shannon, water charges, bin tax. . . . They don't seem to change

by confused - one of the people Fri Sep 19, 2003 23:54

Declan

The only flaw I can see in your argument is your basic premise that Ireland is a democracy. I was not too sure so I checked it up.

de•moc•ra•cy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dEmokratia, from dEmos(people) + -kratia(rule) -cracy
Date: 1576

1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

As the present government were elected on campaign promises that were later seen to be untrue it seems to me that they cannot claim to be representing or exercising the will of the people.

2 : a political unit that has a democratic government

n/a as government is not democratic.

3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.

n/a yet

4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority

this one is hopeful.

5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

Lawlor 1 week, Joe/Clare 1 month would seem to blow this one out of the water here in Ireland.

I also seem to remember a definition we were given at school of 'government of the people, by the people and for the people'. I think the FF/PD government fulfill the first part (they seem to be people but I could be wrong) but the third part - for the people- really nixes any claim to Ireland being a democracy.

by declan Fri Sep 19, 2003 21:55

R isible, i don't think most of the public are morons... just people like 'blockader' and 'joe' above...

also instead of just coming out with sarky comments why don't u point out the flaw in my argument?

by Kev Fri Sep 19, 2003 21:15

Fingal Anti-Bin Tax Campaign Press Statement
19th September 2003

Jailing Will Only Intensify Campaign Against the Bin Tax/Non Collection of Bins

THE JAILING of Joe Higgins T.D. and Cllr. Clare Daly for a month will not break the massive opposition in Dublin to the bin tax and to the draconian policy of leaving thousands of bins of householders boycotting the bin tax uncollected.

How ironic that fighters for taxation justice should be imprisoned, while sitting in the Dáil and Councils around the country are many establishment representatives who were in the pockets of developers and speculators.

The anger that is coming from working class communities on the bin tax reflects a wider anger because the Government lied its way back into office, because of the imposition of a whole range of increased charges and stealth taxes and because of the cuts in our health and education services. In the last two budgets, multinationals and the rich have been given a €1.5 billion tax cut while working class people are expected to pay the bin tax. It won’t be lost on people that none of the Ansbacher tax cheats were even taken to court, never mind imprisoned.

The Fingal Anti Bin Tax Campaign fully supports the stance taken by both Joe Higgins T.D. and Councillor Clare Daly. We call on all the Campaigns Against the Bin Tax to intensify their struggle by following the example of Fingal residents until the bin tax is abolished and both public representatives are released.

Protest Rally

Tomorrow, Saturday, September 20th
2.00 PM at Fingal County Council Offices,
Blanchardstown Town Centre

The Fingal Anti Bin Tax Campaign is also calling on all the Anti Bin Tax Campaigns to organise solidarity protests in their communities at lunchtime tomorrow.

Ø Collect All Bins
Ø Abolish the Bin Tax
Ø Release Joe Higgins T.D. & Cllr Clare Daly

Email your messages of support for Joe and Clare, demand that they be released and demand that the bin tax is abolished.

-------------------------------------

Socialist Party Press Statement
19th September 2003

Northern Trade Union Leaders Call for Protests at Jailing of Bin Tax Campaigners

THE JAILING of Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins and Cllr Clare Daly for one month for their refusal to cease campaigning against the bin tax in Dublin is an attack on working class peoples rights to protest against injustice.

Both Joe and Clare were elected to the Dail and Fingal County Council respectively with a mandate to oppose the introduction of bin charges and to represent the thousands of families who are opposed to bin charges. Bin Charges are a form of double taxation.

Under the present Southern Government, more than 80% of all income tax is collected from the working class under the PAYE system. PAYE workers do not object to paying for the service but certainly do object to paying twice.

The agenda of the establishment is to defeat resistance to the bin tax, make the tax collectible, reintroduce the hated water charges and bring local taxation up to the 1000 euro a year mark.

The Government and the Councils try to portray the tax as an environmentally friendly measure based on the principle that "the polluter pays". However, the point is that the polluter manifestly does not pay in the southern State. A couple of years ago total national waste came to 80 million tonnes. Of this, a mere 1.2 million tonnes was accounted for by household waste. Most of the rest was accounted for by big business and agriculture. Yet ordinary householders were hit with service charges and big business was rewarded with the lowest corporate tax rates in Europe.

The jailing of Joe Higgins and Clare Daly for fighting for the rights of working class people is been met with outrage throughout the country. This is at the same time that millionaire tax dodgers have been found to have cheated the tax man of a small fortune by hiding money in offshore Ansbacher bank accounts. Not a single Ansbacher Man has seen the inside of a prison cell.

The defeat of the bin charges in the South would also be a victory for working people in Northern Ireland. Campaigns are presently being built across the North to organise non-payment of the planned water charges which are also designed to financially cripple working class people even further.

We are calling for workers throughout Northern Ireland to protest and show solidarity with Joe and Clare and with the working class people of Dublin fighting the bin tax.

Yours,

Carmel Gates, NIPSA President (personal capacity)

Padraig Mulholland, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Brian Booth, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Kevin Lawrenson, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Paul Dale, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Mary Cahillane INTO Executive member

Gordon McNeill,

Madan Gumpta,

Chris Bowyer, sacked airport shop stewards

Jim Barbour, FBU Executive Committee

Jim Quinn FBU, Chairperson NI

Tony Maguire, Belfast Trades Council

Anton McCabe, Omagh Trades Council

Mickey Duffy, NIPSA Fermanagh & Tyrone Health Branch

Harry Hutchinson, Secretary T&GWU Mid-Ulster & West Branch

Peter Hadden,

Gary Mulcahy,

Ciaran Mulholland,

Northern Regional Executive Committee, Socialist Party
------------------------------------

by R Isible Fri Sep 19, 2003 19:52

Us members of the public may be morons, but if we're allowed to choose the crooks that run the country then perhaps we should be allowed to just cut them out of the loop.
Of course your brilliant and incisive intellect would be better suited to government than the average-fool-in-the-street like myself, but let's just _pretend_ we believe in democracy shall we?
Do _you_ get it now?

by ec Fri Sep 19, 2003 17:57

They gave us military use of shannon in afghan war and in buildup to Iraq war without a dail vote until the shock and awe phase of the war started. These both directly contravened the constitution.

by declan Fri Sep 19, 2003 17:48

i referred to the zhao ming/flaun gong protests... zhao ming, the trinity postgrad, has been released from a chinese jail... protestors are a big part of why he is freed... they drew attention to his plight... bertie asked the chinese premier about it... as did trinity provost... zhao ming got released... i realise of course that the rest of the falun gongers are not being treated properly...



"After all Declan the vast majority of Irish people opposed both the war and the refuelling at Shannon. "
it's true the majority opposed refuelling and despite this the government allowed the planes in... but being in government does not mean you are running some sort of 24 hour opinion poll on the country... the party that gets elected gets to run the country as they choose (within bounds of constitutuion) for 4 years.....

running the government as an opinion poll is a stupid idea.... ask the people do they want the health service to be brought in on budget and they will say yes... ask them do they want such and such a hospital closed and they will say no... sometimes these two positions are contradictory... that's why you can't run the government as a 24 hour opinion poll....

do you get it now???

by Joe Fri Sep 19, 2003 17:24

After all Declan the vast majority of Irish people opposed both the war and the refuelling at Shannon. Yet 'our' government went ahead and allowed refuelling and their was nothing we go do about it (If we played by your rules).

It's a good thing that there will always be people who will see through this con and stand up for what is right. At Shannon the state arrested something like 50 people to keep the people down. Some of those arrested spent weeks in jail, others had to pay fines of thousands of euros. Over 20 people were actually banned from Co Clare (and some still are). That is your celebrated 'democracy' and more and more people are waking up to it.

As for the Falun Gong. They are still banned and their members are still dying in Chinese prisons. How do you see this as a success??

by sidlebar Fri Sep 19, 2003 17:22

"The reason you don't get your way is becasue the government (which the people elected) disagreed with you... tough luck!!!!!"

Yes Declan, the people do elect the government, therefore the government should respond to the demands of the people. Joe and Clare are elected representatives, they are representing their electorate by opposing this tax.

The main parties are ignoring the wishes of the people by imposing this tax, so people have a right (maybe a duty) to oppose this and demonstrate this opposition in a non violent manner. If people start setting bin trucks on fire or assaulting bin men, thats a different matter

Just because the government and the Co. Council are using the full force of the law to force this issue through does not make them right!

The joys of living in a Democracy means that if the Government does not agree with you, you shout louder till they hear you and change their minds!!!

Respect to all campaigners, and fuck the begrudgers!

by Maubere Fri Sep 19, 2003 17:19

regarding the "protesting is fine but they broke the law and should go to jail" attitude, I was watching a good report on Prime Time last night about fish farming and how some fish farmers have illgally dumped diseased fish both at sea and on land,
did these people get arrested?, did they face the "full rigours of the law"?,were they put in jail??

of course not!!! they have conections so one of them was appointed to Bord Iascaigh Mara and the other is on another government body thats developing the fish farming industry,

the rich don't have to protest or mount pickets and blockades coz they have all the power

by declan Fri Sep 19, 2003 17:04

sometimes you protest and you get your way... the zhao ming/falun gong protests would be an example of this... sometimes you protest and you don't your way... shannon protests are an example of this... the reason you don't get your way is becasue the government (which the people elected) disagreed with you... tough luck!!!!!

taking your example of physically stopping them to the extreme... supposing you decide to physically stop the bin men... then i decide i am in favour of bin charges and i decide to physically stop you from stoppping the bin men from collecting my rubbish... what happens??? a mini riot between you and i??? this is why we have a court system....

hope you understood all that...

by blockader Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:56

>ec, it's not simply a choice between mass
>arrests and blockading... another option would
>be to have a legitmate protest, but without
>stopping other citizens going about their
>work...

Cop on, doing that and you might as well just roll over and hand victory to the council on a platter. All the protests in the world won't stop them, just look at Feb 15th and the shannon issue.

The only way to stop them is to physically stop them, not march up and down O'Connell street aimlessly.

by Joe Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:55

"Lawyers for Dublin City Council have also gone to the High Court and will ask the judge for an injunction preventing named individuals from obstructing there waste collection services."

Next week promises to be pretty interesting

by frustrated Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:54

Just wondered why the blockaders, who I don't have any problem with, haven't gone and asked the union bureaucracy to publicly state that they will back to the hilt any worker who collects all rubbish regardless of whether they have paid.

Bravery and willingness to go to jail is fine, but it shouldn't left to the individual.

by Andrew Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:51

Somewhat co-incidentally in the court on Green street this evening there will be a commemoration of a similar political trial carried out 200 years back. The law and order brigade back then celebrated the fact that the court then sentenced a young man to be hung, drawn and quatered outside St Catherines on Thomas st.

by declan Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:46

ec, it's not simply a choice between mass arrests and blockading... another option would be to have a legitmate protest, but without stopping other citizens going about their work...

by ec Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:42

to arrest anyone who blocades trucks in fingal and bring them before the courts . . . mass arrests or capitulation in the immediate future?

by declan Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:27

but joe higgins and clare daly were not just protesting, they were blockading!!!... citizens are allowed to protest, by that i mean have a march, place a picket outside someones office etc etc... but these guys were blockading, they were stopping the council from going about their business... it's only right that they be jailed...

the only thing that surprises me about this case is why the council have to go to court to get them jailed... if a garda sees one citizen stopping another citizen from going down a public highway they should be arrested on the spot...

by Anti Bin Charges Fri Sep 19, 2003 16:22

Protests to Fingal Council

the more people who ring, email, or write in, the better. Please deluge these offices. It may seem like a small thing, but the more they see the popular oppositon to these actions the better.

On another - but related point - NOT ONE ANSBACHER person ahs been jailed. But then the law is blind, yeah.

We should call for their release and the end of the charges against them. State your union/political positions, etc. DEMAND A REPLY.
If not is forthcoming, get back to them asap.

William Soffe - County Manager - [email protected]
Sean Dolphin - Fine Gael Chair of the Council - [email protected]
Phone him at [code from NI and Britain] 003531 or 01 890 5025 (w) The Council address is
Fingal Council, County Hall, Main Street, Swords, Fingal County Dublin. Phone 003531/01 8905000
Fianna Fail - Tel 003531 or 01 6761551 Email: [email protected]
Progressive Democrats - Tel 6794399 Email: info@progressivedemocrats.

by F Fri Sep 19, 2003 15:55

I suppose Clare and Joe will try and prevent prison officers from slopping out their cells.

by Joe Fri Sep 19, 2003 15:53

If we can get the numbers for it! This is a real challenge to the campaign clearly intended to terrify the ordinary people taking part in blockades. In reality of course they simply don't have the space to lock up a lot of people.

Some people wanted a march, well how about a march on Mountjoy with the intention of taking down the gates if we have the numbers. Ambitious, yes, justified, certainly.

I've pasted in RTE's web report below

Dublin West TD Joe Higgins and Socialist Party councillor, Clare Daly were each jailed for a month for their part in the anti waste charge protests in Fingal County Council's area.

Before lunch, Mr Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill asked Deputy Higgins and Councillor Daly whether or not they would comply with a high court order preventing them from obstructing waste collection in Fingal.

The Dublin West TD said that he could not abandon the communities he represented and Councillor Daly said that she had no alternative but to continue the protests.

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Mr Higgins and Ms Daly have been leading a campaign against Fingal Co Council's decision not to collect rubbish from householders who have not paid their waste charges.

The protests began more than a week ago and have continued despite two High Court injunctions preventing the protesters from obstructing the council's waste collection services.

Mr Higgins, who was first elected to the Dáil in 1997, said he did not take going to jail lightly but added that he would not allow his support for the protests to be curtailed by the threat of imprisonment.

by marie antoinette Fri Sep 19, 2003 15:46

but I've learned, I say 'storm the 'joy'......

by Maubere Fri Sep 19, 2003 15:41

I just heard on Today FM news that Joe Higgins and Clare Daly have been sentanced to a month in prison
According to Today FM news, Joe Higgins and Clare Daly have been sentanced to a month in prison.

Ironic that a commemeration of the arrest of Jim Larkin was on just a few weeks ago, the spirit of William Martin Murphy is alive and well in Ireland!!!