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Ne Plus Ultra

category international | politics / elections | news report author Tuesday September 02, 2003 18:43author by iosaf / ipsiphi / O as if - no borders Report this post to the editors

being an account of the end of Aznar and Europe of the regions.

Also being a series of reflections on the Spanish and French state, Europe at large and my short treking holiday through the Pyrennes, with a snide nod in the direction of Orwell and lots of little things you didn't know before.

When I left Barcelona last week, I knew many decisions would be made in the Spanish State which shall effect not only the futures of it's citizens but many more beyond in not only Europe but the world. And I was happy to reflect on these whilst I tramped around the mountains.

As I left Aznar appealed to his party to unite behind his vision for another four years of PP presidency of the near "federal" state which is España. The next day the Spanish military forces issued a statement assuring all that since they had not been party to the invasion of Iraq they were not now an army of occupation. The spanish press thoughtfully turned to term the opposition to that occupation as "resistance".

That "resistance" had first been accredited to the leader Muhamed Baqir Al Hakim, who attentive readers will recall signalled the beginning of a land-war in Iraq when he was allowed by the USA to cross the Iranian border last year with 50,000 loyal troops. In this last week Al Hakim joined the list of influential brokers in a future Iraq who are now dead (perhaps safely so for the US/K occupation force)

I had long thought to cross the Pyrennes by foot, to re-trace the steps of so many other anarchists and republicans through history, as it happened the day I chose to scramble along a now thawed winter ski-path it pissed rain, and my cheap sandals were no match for the mud. So I resolved as 21st century wandered to find an easier crossing. I would instead repeat Orwell's escape accross the high (2900metres) river valley of Puigcerdá.

Zapatero leader of the PSOE (spain's new labour) in an interview given to El Pais confirmed his idea of an increased federal Spain at the next election, one in which each communidad (the spanish home rule entities) would hold individual representation at the European level. His last interview on such themes with La Vangaurdia Feb 26th had stressed "Catalonia must feel comfortable in Spain". Indeed it must, it is along with the Basque where the money is made.

I found Puigcerdá to be a typical fortress town turned ski resort, though as I wrote earlier the snow had thawed. A memorial in the town square made of the red stone which resembles marble and is plentyful to the north near Toulouse commerated the defensive battle of 1837. A battle bewteen Madrid and Paris. I could find nothing of those other battles of the 1930s.

The ERC and ICV Catalonia´s smaller parties the left repubilcans and greens perhaps of most interest to readers of indymedia, rejected Zapatero's plan as being incompatible with the increased autonomy they seek. They spent the week puzzling over the suggestion's of the PSC (Catalan branch of the PSOE) to create a new European economic region along the borders of the old Kingdom of Aragon.

I crossed the river plain.

I entered France without papers without passport honestly without intent, quite by accident in that I had thought the border to be "up a mountain", and found in place of barbed wire, in place of armed border guards a sleepy hamlet. The children spoke Catalan, the taxi driver at the railway station spoke catalan to his passengers who then spoke french, there was no visible difference, no discernible demarkation of a frontier that has meant war, salvation and liberty for so many.

I reflected that militarily a frontier on a plain makes watched by two towers make's more sense.
I returned to the spanish side by train because quite honestly my budget couldn't meet the 100% increase in the price of beer, cigarettes and coffee. And without my passport a trip to Paris could prove dodgey. I noted the little plaque erected in 1993 at the SNCF station La Tour de Carol "in memory of the republicans of spain who passed through this station on the route of their exile january 1939".

I mused that it took them over fifty years to raise the plaque, I further mused that Orwell and his wife had already left by a different mountain pass in a first class carriage "dressed as bourgoise". I felt sure that those who followed his bourgois escape did so in sandals like mine.
[final chapter of homage to catalonia]

Those men and women who made it january 1939 were not the first nor the last. I returned to the "Spanish side" and took more careful look at the newspapers, the Mayor of the French town Perpignan Jean Paul Alduy had signalled that he welcomed the idea of an economic area on the borders of the ancient kingdom of Aragon. ¿where?

Modern day Aragon, Catalonia and french side rousillon. To me it seemed natural, the Catalan flag flew on both sides of the frontier, and that language was spoken bothsides of the frontier and surely trade crossed that high mountain plain as well? could this interest the Irish on the border closer to my childhood home? or the folk of Ulster and Scotland?

The french side newspaper called "Independent!" in a curious mix of catalan and french mused on the ancient kingdom of Aragon. The Spanish side remembered that the kingdom of Spain is made of the union between crowns of Castille and Aragon- what is the nature of federalism?
: to unite difference. as a commentator of La Vanguardia put it.

Aznar at the beginning of the week in Castille called for four more years of the PP to "save the integrity of Spain", and after Zapatero's reply, nominated as his succesor Mariano Rajoy, who today assumes Aznar's power. The elections shall be fought in March of 2004.

The next president of España shall either be Rajoy or Zapatero.
{perhaps you should learn their names, for they might possibly be the last presidents of España as you have probably grown to ignore it}

Today the last town of "Spain" hosts "sin papeles" mostly morrocons and west africans awaiting the right moment to cross a border without guards to make their way north to Paris or east to Marseilles.

I mused on the events of the 1930s, the war by Mussolini on Ethiopia whose success emboldened the fascist accross our Europe. An east african woman carrying her children and those unmistakebly cheekbones and dress of Ethiopia/Abysinia/Eritrea/Somalia, the ancient realm of Haile Sallesi passed me by as I came to terms with my surprise. The border in truth was not as I had expected.

Two towers facing each other across a river flood plain as high as one can go in Europe aside the Alps, and not a guard in sight. This woman would surely join thousands of others, "in exile" over that border, and In so doing they leave a political constituency in Catalonia that boasts complete ERC (republican catalan left) representation [no opposition] to a constituency the other side of the valley that boasts councillers of the Front Nationale of Le Pen.

I saw neither guards nor barbed wire but knew something none the less.... ne plus ultra.

The Borders are where we meet the guards.
maybe they happen on the road to Toulouse, or the bus to Paris, or the quays of Dublin just after the boat docks. But they are still there, with the men paid to guard them.

September 26th 2003 the Lehandakari will present his plan for "free and external" association for the Basque from the Spanish state to the Basque home rule assembly. The assembly which lost one of it's key advisors and figures this week, the late Mario Onaindia who died two days ago. He was born 13/1/48 studied english a language in which he eventually held a doctorate and teaching post. As a young man he was arrested in 1968 (a Franco era campaign against ETA) which was then beginning it's not so long history. He was subsequently sentanced to death and 51 years in prison. He served a small portion of that sentance, and upon the transition of Spain to democracy he among many other nationalist prisoners of both Basque and Catalan background was "exiled". He went to Belgium after a period of four years in exile he returned to take his place as a socialist forming a left of PSOE grouping for which he was elected to the new Basque parliament the one which has prgressively expanded it's home rule status. He later saw that small party form an alliance and eventually merge with the Basque secton of the PSOE. He was thereupon "sentanced to death" by ETA who had moved "to the left" whilst he moved "to the right".

In his final years he served as a senator for the "new labour" equivalent in the Madrid central government and wrote many books and scripts for cinema his main passion. He spent a life gathering enemies perhaps more animosity than friendship, and moved from nationalism and social republicanism to centralised social democracy. He was diagonosed as having stomach cancer three years ago. Like many men since, before and after he set to write his autobiography. "The price of Liberty". Only one phrase is worthy of inclusion here: "Patria is where I may feel free".

Did the woman of noble lineage feel free in Catalonia? in the kingdom of Aragon? shall she feel free in Rousillon under the Catalan flag but in France where income and coffee is 100% higher? Will she find her Patria in Paris? in London? in Dublin? Where will her children finally find their patria in Europe? Europe that in the form of Mussolini first caused emigration and refugees from her lands?

To understand the Basque is to understand that in any generation the same forces that have brought men to arms have also brought them through apparent "apostasy" to at times almost diametrically opposed political careers and action.

Irish politics is filled with such men.


We may never say that that was then, no more shall that happen.

To attempt to understand the Basque is to understand the Spanish state, and to move to understanding the same forces, the same trajectories of political development that have informed and will always inform Irish History.


so for your future thoughts on Europe, of regions, of Spain:

September 26th the Basque national question shall be debated in it's home rule assembly the only home rule assembly in Europe afforded the right rasie tax. In so doing all colours of the Basque shall exchange views. It is one year since HB were illegalised but their elected representatives sit still in that assembly till march next year. They shall debate the constitutional terms that to Irish eyes at least remind one of De Valera's "external association" and the tortous conceit which was and is "Eire". Amongst the debaters shall be supporters of Franco and those who passed from supporting armed struggle to seeking something else and those who still maintain that "war" shall someday bring "self-determination".



March 7th 2004. the Elections Rajoy or Zapatero?
whomever they shall have to treat upon the Basque of whom Irish readers only really recognise three letters no matter for years it was the same for the Irish....
And Catalonia, by it's ancient connection to Aragon and it's at times perverse intepretation of federal possibilities, shall she re-shape the European map?

If Rajoy get's the job, then interestingly Spain shall have been led by Gallician for the majority of the last 100 years.

it is 15º raining almost like Wicklow.

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?id=23420
author by berniebirdpublication date Wed Sep 03, 2003 04:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nice One, iosaf...
a bit all over the place, but very nice, i'm a big orwell fan anyhoos... did ya stop by the "George Orwell Place" or is it "Lane" right off the Ramblas? (punks sit under the arches there- right across from the old tower where he saw the first shots of the May 37 purge fighting)...
For those of you too lazy to read the book, Orwells adventures were brought to the big screen in "Land and Freedom" (Tierra y Libertad) starring Ian Hart as the young idealist Mancunian and directed by, uh, the guy who made "Carla's Song".
I myself find it hard to make parallels between catalan and vasco struggles for identity and independence- besides the fact their being both under the same federal govt- they are very distinct cultures with very different histories... but what's the point?... are we all just "Europeans" now? no easy answer... but outlawing all Basque nationalist parties doesn't leave much open in the way of debate...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Well, I can't think for so many people... duh..
when did you do this hike? there's still snow in Puigcerda????

VISCA POUM!!!!
b

author by ecpublication date Wed Sep 03, 2003 13:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

.

author by *$*publication date Wed Sep 03, 2003 16:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The film Land and Freedom was directed by Ken Loach.

author by iosafpublication date Wed Sep 03, 2003 17:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1st thing. Rajoy today set out as leader of the PP his vision for his presidency.

USA: no change in relationship.
Anti-terrorism: no change even if the PP are opposed by all other parties.
Constitutional reform: no change felt needed but open to "debate".

2nd thing. to berniebird, I read today (back in BCN) http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60898&condense_comments=false#comment44656, in which i see you offered to be a moderator to rid indymedia (I presume ireland) of seanín and types like myself? You really are an attentive reader. Well done.
I as Eamonn remembers did live on Placa George Orwell for two years, and have at other times brought people's attention to the photos in "X-files" of the Spanish anarchist family "Nodo50" of the CCTV cameras the first in Catalonia which were placed on that square. I also brought attention to the photo of myself on that square in those files.

Today as well as highlighting the plans of Rajoy for the future of Spain which go beyond containing the mere "nationalism" of Basques. The Catalans are about to reshape the economic regions of the future Europe, and that has much significance for the Irish.
in two ways:
1. the Irish pretend to keep official status for gaeilge and the Catalan language with 10 million speakers spread between Spain and France are a "2nd rate language". This will not always be so.

2. The Catalans along the lines of "Aragon" the second of the towers that appears on the Spanish flag over the slogan "y plus ultra" may form the first trans-frontier economic region in the EU.
One of 16 million people, and an economy which is stronger than the Republic of Ireland's, indeed with institutions of "state" older than Ireland, England and Scotland.

That Ireland with it's paltry 3.5 million may be un-affected by that is stupid and "excessively" nationalist.

The POUM were mostly wankers, as was Orwell and I honestly do not understand the regard in which he is held, he was a plagiarist, Zamiatin preceding many of his dystopic ideas, and he in his own words certainly seemed more "bloodthirsty" than those he fought beside and against.
*************************************************
And finally for those in Indymedia Ireland including seanín (how did you get those photos through the editors?) news from Indymedia global:

the creation of a new IMC for the Maghreb, Andalucia and canarias(who else tells you such things berniebird?) Canarias imc is now thus "amalgamated into the new service".

http://madiaq.indymedia.org/

Oh and another of those who lived on plaza trippi as Placa G. Orwell is now known, (there tourists and "guirris" like visiting irish, buy drugs) is Manu Chou.
Mr Chou has issued a new song/statement/poem in support of his friend.
you may read the lyrics and response at
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/52072/index.php

Berniebird, do your best for IMC ireland, but remember the next nation state of Europe will be the Basque in some form, and all the reasons that support it's future creation are the nonsensical economics and "passions" that forged the Free State. In some ways the oldest objections to the EEC placed by Irish nationalists are about to come true.

Related Link: http://www.nodo50.org/x-files/bcn01/x_files_061.htm
author by attentive readerpublication date Wed Sep 03, 2003 22:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are truly very special, an intelectual of great standing, a writer of beautifully crafted if at times difficult to understand words, a poet of genius and beauty. and if you had chosen not be an anarchist by now you probably would have settled into a good career as a political hack in some centrist party in the Dail just like your childhood pals. Just one thing, well two things have been bothering me:
1. Did you sell the tourists trippis? I remember there was a Leary side to you when you lived in Dublin.
2. How do you / we pronounce Rajoy? RTE haven't picked up on your hints, and well I'd like to get it right.

author by berniebirdpublication date Thu Sep 04, 2003 00:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I know what i wrote, iosaf... i know what i'm doing...
being as civil and gracious as possible, i must say it doesn't take much to bring out your condescending nature. i'm of the opinion, though it's just that, that an aggressive and superior thinking egohead can be just as counter-active as any of the paid right-wing filibusterers who plague all imc sites. It's discouraging and vexatious to others...
But i'm dead against censorship, of course, i brought up moderation in response to the immense frustration of others at the time. It would just be nice if we could moderate ourselves a little, give others the headspace.
i read the blurb by "activist" (you)
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60898&PHPSESSID=cc27f17ba5c3114d4ff1c5bdcf61ba31
and agree totally... but that's what imc is to me, as many others... a learning tool... and i learn sometimes more from the comments and the interaction therein often than from the feature stories themselves!
no tomes al pecho, companero, ademas, pudieramos ser hermanos,
b

author by iosapublication date Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Attentive reader, thank you, very sweet, your discerning reading and seperating of creative floss from dross in my contributions has brought you through the first english announcement of the sinking of The Prestige which was accurate in all it's detail, through the only list of SCUD and other missiles held by Iraq and others published on the indymedia network, and many other titbits which possibly excuse the occasional trolling I do.

so pronunciation of Rajoy:

Trill/Roll the "R". - Rrrra
the "J" is unusual for Irish accents and is a half glotal stop, you can approximate this sound by a throaty "ch" as in the scottish "loch".
Thus Rajoy = "rrrackoi" or "rrracoy".

as for the trips? Oh I don't do that anymore, never did, don't have a clue what you're insinuating there, oh the shame...
I do occasionaly give out mushrooms being a quasi-devotee of psyclicybin and love painting bollards as mushies as well. They are a good symbol for anarcho-green / anarcho/syndicalist emergence and influence. The spores travel wide but always land in geometrical patterns, and too much of the magic indeed is poisonous. but I only give them away after a picking journey to the mountains. (now is a good time to ask me).

Bernie Bird:
no pasa nada, me gustó como has hecho la traducción de manu, y bueno de menudo estoy un poco "supercillious", and I am trying my best to limit my comments on other's articles, understanding that often I do seem patronising and obnoxious. [coz I am on occasion, but always remember I am obnoxious on our behalf, is it really my fault if I don't suffer idiocy so easily?]
In fact like many obnoxious writers I am a little sensitive [ah(-O], and the fact that I don't have a clue to whom I am replying/ or whom I'm reading really does affect my tone, and often how other's read what I've written.

???????????????????????????????????????????
¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

On Rajoy, I am bemused that opposition to his leadership is pretty universal from the the parties of the left in Spain and all the parties in the troublesome regions Basque and Catalonia, I haven't made up my mind, but I don't think at the moment that he is going to make it. So If I were gambling, I'd say put your money on Zapatero. There is something in the law suit to defend his honour (he was called a mariposón "big butterfly (=screaming homosexual)", and I think that somewhere in the dark homophobic heart of España they are not ready for such a president yet. But the rightwing always play losing candidates in every coountry when they face nationalism. It shifts the blame....

more anon.

author by iosafpublication date Thu Sep 04, 2003 14:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It seems to me, and I'd like to know how others think on this, that every time in Irish history that Irish "nationalism" was advanced, it was with a tory government installed in Westminster. I used think this odd, surely Labour would be the party that advanced the cause of Irish freedom or unity? Home Rule in the 19th century was the concern of the Liberal faction, who if we remember died eventually at the same time that Monty Python entered our schoolyard joking routines. English Labour followed by New Labour lacked the support in the "establishment" that curious mixture of wealth, landowners, military officers and the like who consider themselves to be "the natural party of government".
The PP with it's roots in the civil service of Franco, with it's very apparent attempt at continuity from that era to now, considers itself to be the "natural party of government of España" and is thus a true equivalent of the "Conservative and Unionist party of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" as the tories are officially termed.

Aznar brought his country into war, even though the army might deny that, they now watch the overstretching of the power of the USA, and today announced that they envision only staying in Iraq for a period of three years. This curiously is the shortest term a peace keeping force may stay under UN operations. But Iraq is not _yet_ a UN operation. What we all knew before, that Washington was to engage itself in imperialism is true, but the nature of it's imperialism is at sharp contrast to it's imperialist history:
[the conflict with Spain/Texax 19th century expansion to the west]
[the development of the Monroe doctrine and subversion of the emergent republics of South America]
[the adventures to Nicuragua 1912-1989]
[the annexation of Hawaii, Phillipines Oceania]
The USA throughout it's history demonstrated itself to have true imperialist concerns, but always fell short of the imperialist tactics of the UK or France. But Iraq was to be different, the older UK mandate/protectorate of Kuwait and southern Iraq has returned, in many ways the British "establishment's" agenda in Iraq is now becoming clear, Blair is damaged, and so too New Labour and the "imperialist heart" [the natural government] has regained some of it's lost empire, allbeit at US expense. Before the war started, eamonn found a game, first circulated in November of 2002, which attempted to "predict" the consequences of a US/K invasion. It ended most aptly with "you are in the shi'te".
But such developments were clear to the US/K entity, the Kingdoms of Spain and Britain and their "natural governments" as much as their inherent interests in the USA. Russia and France both know that the occupation of Iraq has now for various reasons gone far beyond what is capable of the US economy alone. The empire has overstretchewd itself, the curious actions of Al Qaeda forcing both World Bank and IMF into Jordan, the $ is not available to rebuild Iraq. And the longterm benefiters of this are the older imperial structures at the expense of democracy.

Aznar miscalculated. Blair knew. The scandals are a ruse to shift blame. Bush too has in the long run lost. Which is what I meant long ago, as they can not safely prosecute their war....

When empires contract/enter such crises, new nations emerge.

The PSOE is no more capable of giving the Basque what theywant than New Labour the Irish, thus the PP field a losing horse....


But it seems possible that after 8 years of PP rule, the PP would like "time out". It seems that they would rather sit in opposition and watch the PSOE supervise constitutional reform and then return to power later, without their "integrity" shiboleeth being affected.

yet more anon.......

author by attentive reader.publication date Thu Sep 04, 2003 19:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

interesting ideas, but muddled. Maybe they're not muddled when they leave Barcelona, but man by the time they get through cyber space to my little internet café they've lost the "tone", the "gesticulations", the "meaningful pauses" and all the rest.

Are you suggesting there is a link between the USA in Iraq and the Basques?
Are you suggesting that the USA has overstretched itself as an empire?
Are you saying Aznar in some sly way has left the political stage ahead of some disaster for the spanish rightwing?
And are you suggesting that the reawakening of the Suni/Sh'ite wars which seperated world islam on over 14 seperate occasions the last being arguable the Iran/Iraq war is somehow related to this?
And are you suggesting that the British establishment are slyly reasserting their empire at the expense of the New Labour experiment, Mr Blair, the Irish and Washington?
And are you suggesting all these threads are bound together in some way?
and are you offering anyone mushrooms?

author by berniebirdpublication date Thu Sep 04, 2003 22:56author address noo yoikauthor phone Report this post to the editors

Historian Paul Kennedy, who predicted US imperial overstretch some 20 years back, was amazed at the US invasion of Afghanistan costing only 3% of GDP- and had to swallow his words... (though Niall Ferguson is still bandering the idea)...
Take a peak the September 1st Time mag, where columnist Charles Krauthammer argues for UN intervention and invokes that brilliant statement in above title...
the hilarity of it is lost to all but me over here, alas...
Johnny Depp is in the bad books for calling the US a naughty puppy...
(blacklists? who's heard of Martin Sheen or Jeanneane Garofalo since March? Seems you can't use your Hollywood standing for political purposes... oh, unless you're Arnie...)

author by iosafpublication date Fri Sep 05, 2003 15:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

no estoy seguro k te conozco, he visto tu nombre solo este semane. Gracíes x tu pensimientos sobre pais Vasco. Estoy haciendo algo k va a durar varios semanes. En Catalan tenemos una cançon del años 60 "tots el colors del verd", sobre pais vasco. Quiero yo poner todos estes colores aquí este mi intención mi trabajo. Me gustaría se puedes ayudar más. Peró este semane es la semane de paisos catalanes. Onze de Septiembre.

The most recent critiques of Empire came from two distinct political factions. Within Anglo-saxon culture the collapse of the post-Stalinist centralised Marxist Soviet Empire was reacted to variangly as a sign that U.S. hegemony had triumphed that in some way the U.S.A. had properly become an empire. This is an error.

Those of different traditions most notable Asian american historians postulated the ending of historical currents. "the end of history". This too was an error.

We may not assess the peak or collapse of U.S. empire and imperialism (a different concept though related) in terms of GDP/GNP/federal reserves or the shioboleeth of late american capitalist democracy "the budget defecit".
That too is an error.

*************************************************
I and many other anarchist theorists often point to 19th century events not only to stress that the libertarian tradition which is Anarchism pre-dates Marxist socialism, but also because familiarity with the 19th century is less touched by emotive intepretation and mis-interpretation.
*************************************************
I'm not offering anyone any mushrooms.
*************************************************
Aznar is glad to be gone.
*************************************************
New Labour is an experiment, it's place in the Hegalian dialectic is still unsure but it's political philosophy is bound to change soon.
*************************************************
I wrote this ideas at length in a pamhplet which was published in two years ago. And this is not the place nor time to explain properly the ideas or concepts.
*************************************************
we move to another thread.

author by berniebirdpublication date Sat Sep 06, 2003 02:08author email berniejbird at yahoo dot ieauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

puedas contar y confiar en mi- si necesitarias mas transducciones por tus proyectos- tengo tiempo y yo necesito practicar mas la idioma.
de ordinario, escribo en differentes sitios y visitar imc.ie solamente una vez por semana...
dime un poco como va las cosas por 11/9 en barcelona- me interesa mucho-
suerte!
b

author by iosafpublication date Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

mi español falta ortografía, y lio entre catalan y castellano siempre, por eso no me gusta hacer los traducciones español/inglès. Barçelona esta llena de pancartas de todos tipos para celebrar "onze septiembre". Naturalmente hay mucho mas de los jovenes independistas, que me gustan, peró este año, las autoridades (el gobierno) en la forma de la generalitat ha hecho un series de publicidades por TV "creixim al futúr amb catalúnya".

author by Taupublication date Wed Sep 17, 2003 14:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1973 -- Spain: Anarchist militants members of the MIL, Oriol Solé Sugranyes & José Luis Pons Llobet, are captured near the French border after clashing with the "Guardia Civil".
They are later sent to prison, for 48 & 24 years respectively. Oriol Solé later escaped from a Segovia jail, along with Resistance prisoners, all ETA members but him, but was gunned down & killed trying to get across the border into France.

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