Cork remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki

by Irish American Wed Aug 06, 2003 20:22

and when and where will the Nanking remembrance be?

by Raymond McInerney Wed Aug 06, 2003 21:53

Akiba called on U.S. President George W. Bush and the leaders of all nuclear-weapons states, along with Kim Jong-il, to visit Hiroshima and face the reality of what nuclear weapons can do.

by Raymond McInerney Wed Aug 06, 2003 23:34

"Darkness can never be dispelled by darkness, only by light." The rule of power is darkness. The rule of law is light. In the darkness of retaliation, the proper path for human civilization is illumined by the spirit of reconciliation born of the hibakusha's determination that "no one else should ever suffer as we did."

by Seáinín Thu Aug 07, 2003 02:42

Who's the bloke in the blue and yellow dress? He looks a bit out of his element, doesn't he? Did he take a wrong turn at the airport or something?

by Ray Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:52

He can't be Irish?

by Jim Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:53

To "Irish American" - are you Irish or American ?(Brazilians are American too, I suppose you mean the United States of America)

If you were born in Ireland then you are Irish - unless you have become naturalised in another country. If you were born in the United States of America you are a US Citizen, not Irish. Nothing is more sickening than people whose ancestors left the old sod seven generations ago and who wouldn't know Ballyporeen from Ballymena pretending their Irish.

by Lone Gunman Thu Aug 07, 2003 13:48

Sorry,you are misinformed. If one of his parents are US citizens he can claim American citzenship on or before his 21st birthday.
Same as any US citzen can claim Irish citzenship if one of their grandparents or parents were Irish.
Ireland and the US recognise dual citzenship of each others countries .
Goes back to our Irish American first Taosieach [sic] De Velara.
Only reason he wasnt put up against the wall in 1916 by the British.
Agree with you thou about seven generations Americans claiming to be Irish,etc. They are the fools who support our terrorist groups.but then if blacks insist on being called African Americans,I see no reason why somone cant claim to be Irish American

by response Thu Aug 07, 2003 16:00

Nothing makes me more sick than you assholes who've never lived anywhere where you had to pay to be irish...try north of the border, try australia, try england, try the u.s....where we've been treated like white niggers then we come home to your plastic paddy shit.....face it jim boy most folks with any get up and go got up and went...folks like you caught the celtic tiger virus real bad...your the most timid generation to come out of this place in a long time....all you've got is a fig leaf of narky cynicism to hide behind

by robby Thu Aug 07, 2003 20:39

Like the images from the rape of nanking, the death railway over the river Kwai, the "comfort camps" and any other crimes against humanity that those scumbags perpetrated.

And another thing I was born in Ireland, (Tyrone) and I'm definitely not Irish, so how can a second generation yankee!

by Ciaran Fri Aug 08, 2003 06:56

Who exactly are "those scumbags"?
Are you perhaps refering to the children who were vaporized or left to slow painful deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Well they sure got the comeuppance they deserved eh?
But if you were alluding to the terrible crimes commited by the Japanese military, please try to seperate the actions of the state and its military from the population at large. Because you can be sure the general population were the victims at Hiroshima, not "those scumbags" in the military.

Cheers.

by Jim Fri Aug 08, 2003 13:19

Come off it Robby, I've never heard it suggested before that Tyrone isn't part of Ireland. Carson never suggested it, nor did Ian Paisley. Your United Kingdom goes by the title The United Kingdom of Britain and Northern IRELAND. I suspect that even Johnny Adair believes he is Irish - in the sense of being born on the island of Ireland, but his allegiance is to the crown (which incidentally has many Irish links).

by Tim Fri Aug 08, 2003 16:08

more whataboutery (seems conatgious on this site).

Robby, the rape, torture and forced labour that goes with war is not being whitewashed over by the cork rememberance. War is an insane situation, the Cork people are taking the side of innocent victims not emperor Hirohito and the Japanese Imperial forces. The people of Hiroshima (and before you ask, I have been to Hiroshima and spoken - in Japanese, to some of the locals) are not scumbags, any more than the victims of German blitz raids, the dresden firebombing, the women who were raped by soldiers during the war.

We could spend eternity swapping examples of atrocities, My Lai, Dachau, death squads, ehtnic cleansing. The victims in the middle of this are not running the show.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki need to be remembered for what they are, especially because of the lies that the Allies used to justify it.

The Japanese were willing to surrender, IF the emperor was allowed to remain as a figurehead.
The myth that the bombing was better than an invasion costing thousands of soldiers lives is baseless.

Soldiers can at least pick their targets, shoot at other soldiers who have a fair chance of shooting back.
bombs, especially nukes do not discriminate between combatants and civilians.

Japan was on its knees, most of their industrial facilities had been destroyed by conventional bombing and it was unable to import essentials. The end was inevitable, the US just wanted it on their terms.

The US dropped two nuclear weapons, needlessly, as an expression of military might and a message to it's rivals. It was also well timed to make sure Japan surrendered to the US and not Moscow.

They picked Hiroshima because it was a fair size and had not been flattened by conventional bombs.
Tokyo had been devastated by repeated waves of bombing.
It wouldn't do as a 'clean slate' to measure the effectiveness of the nuclear bomb.
The people of Hiroshima were nothing more than victims and test subjects for Oppenheimer's deadly toy.
Kobe was the second target for August 9th, but due to poor visibility on the day it wasn't feasible and the people of Nagasaki ended up suffering a nuclear fireball.

If you go to the musuem in Hiroshima you will see watches stopped at 08:15, a child's tricycle partially melted by the heat, a wall burnt by 'black rain' from fallout and countless other photographs and personal artefacts that one would find belonging to ordinary people, parents, children, grandparents, young and old.
None of them deserved to die.
But then again, the victor writes the history eh?

And why don't you guys just swap e-mail addresses and abuse each other somewhere else? Or better yet grow up.

Do I care if you call yourself Irish or not? No.
Is this article about Northern Ireland? No.
Is it about Hiroshima? Yes.
Post a relevant comment or stop wasting people's time.

by Seáinín Fri Aug 08, 2003 17:28

But remember that the Japanese started the war. They may not have if the US had nukes in 1941. It's been an effective deterrent and has undoubtedly prevented another World war and hundreds of millions of deaths.

In the long run, those two nukes have actually saved more lives than they destroyed.

Stop wearing your hearts on your sleeves and think logically.

by Ciaran Fri Aug 08, 2003 21:10

"prevented hundreds of millions of deaths". Is that a fact? Where exactly did you pull that figure from? Good to see some of that logical thinking of which you speak.
But even if nuclear weapons prevented one of many possble alternate world futures, why do some get so riled up at the remembrance of the innocent victims (we all agree on that, right?) of one of the worst crimes, between two warring states?

by Tim Fri Aug 08, 2003 22:20

"But remember that the Japanese started the war"

Hmmm... and does that mean that even if they are seeking surrender terms it's perfectly okay to drop nuclear weapons on their civilians?
Where;s the logic in that?

The emperor didn't get nuked. Care to comment logically on that one?

the rest of your comment is garbage so I'll ignore it, but seeing as you are constantly banging on about the law how about answering a few questions on it relating to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

You should bear in mind that it was 58 years ago today, August 8th 1945 (2 days after the Hiroshima Bomb and 1 day before Nagasaki was nuked) that the US signed the London Agreement for the Prosecution and Punishment of the Major War Criminals of the European Axis.

Some of the crimes they charged against the European Axis included
Aerial bombardment of undefended or civilian areas.

and of course, what had the US just done in Japan?
Even the US Field Manual of the time, in paragraphs 45-48 (FM 27-10 (1940)) dealt with the requirements of international law applicable to bombardments from land and air.

the manual incorporated the rule of the 1907 Hague Regulations article 25 to the effect that the attack or bombardment, "by whatever means" of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended, is prohibited.

"By August of 1945, air supremacy over the target area had already been attained so that there appears to have been no effective fighter or anti-aircraft opposition. The Japanese had ceased to attempt to interfere with reconnaissance flights that were a daily occurrence at that time. So when the three aircraft appeared on the morning of August 6, no attempt at defense was made"

It is also prohibited to make collective punishments and it was prohibited back then as well.

So, again, logically,

Japan was surrendering.
The victims were civilians.
The punishment was collective, radioactive, and still affects the area, people and eco-system.

where was the justification?

by lone Gunman Sat Aug 09, 2003 01:20

I was peruseing a intresting book about this today in a bookshop.Called The Last Mission.It is Very intresting as to WHO was actually in control in Japan between Aug 6th and 10th 1945. It was NOT the Emperor.He had been deposed in a coup de etat by hardline troops who would fight on even after the nuke of Hiroshoma around Aug 6th.The USA apprently got wind of this and this is possibly also why Nagasaki got hit.It is written by a Japenese and American ex officers,and unfortuneatly I didnt get to read it all or buy it.
On the other hand ,it is quite intresting to see just how many Japanese were tried for war crimes.It is significantly LESS than the Nazis.

Also it is quite a point to the Japanese that they have POINT BLANK REFUSED to apologise in any shape or form to the survivors and relatives of the death marches of Burma,Bataan,Nanking,etc. Yet the Germans were forced to apologise for this ,made repay and still do to this day for the atrocities that were committed in the camps. So maybe they should consider this their penalty for crimes against humanity.

by lone Gunman Sat Aug 09, 2003 01:20

I was peruseing a intresting book about this today in a bookshop.Called The Last Mission.It is Very intresting as to WHO was actually in control in Japan between Aug 6th and 10th 1945. It was NOT the Emperor.He had been deposed in a coup de etat by hardline troops who would fight on even after the nuke of Hiroshoma around Aug 6th.The USA apprently got wind of this and this is possibly also why Nagasaki got hit.It is written by a Japenese and American ex officers,and unfortuneatly I didnt get to read it all or buy it.
On the other hand ,it is quite intresting to see just how many Japanese were tried for war crimes.It is significantly LESS than the Nazis.

Also it is quite a point to the Japanese that they have POINT BLANK REFUSED to apologise in any shape or form to the survivors and relatives of the death marches of Burma,Bataan,Nanking,etc. Yet the Germans were forced to apologise for this ,made repay and still do to this day for the atrocities that were committed in the camps. So maybe they should consider this their penalty for crimes against humanity.

by Ciaran Sat Aug 09, 2003 04:33

"they have POINT BLANK REFUSED to apologise....they should consider this their penalty for crimes against humanity"

Absolutely right. "They" should have apologised and "they" should have been punished for the crimes against humanity. But "they" were not the ones who had atomic bombs dropped on them. You're essentially condemning the Japanese 'man on the street', for the crimes of his fucked-up leaders.

by Seáinín Sat Aug 09, 2003 22:16

But most historians agree that the nukes on H & N saved more lives than they destroyed, both in bringing a sharp end to WW2 and in dterring conventional war in the time since.

by Yossarian Tue Aug 12, 2003 14:40

...is it generally agreed by Japanese and non-western historians that the atomic bombs saved so many millions of lives? Perspective, who needs it?

by Lone Gunman Tue Aug 12, 2003 22:16

The Germans are forced to apologise every day almost to the Jewish race.Everything from monertary compensation to humilation and the digging up the past at any convient moment.Yes it happened.But there is a point where history has to slowly be buried.A point that our local freedom fighters and the Irish &English race in general should take in.

My point being it is unfair that the German people get to hear about their atrocities.Yet the Japanese are left alone about things like Nanking,Bataan,etc. You dont hear of films like "Yamaotos list" do you? Please dont give me this nonsense that both civillian pouplations DID NOT support their govts. The emperor in Japan is considerd a GOD.So anything he said then went.
Even in total defeat Japan was spared by the Americans as they wanted to turn it back into a medival agricultural society. Truman explicity forbade Gen Mc Arthur to ride the emporors white horse thru the streets of Tokio. This would have been the total humillation of the Jap pouplation.Even when the treaty of surrender was singed on the Missouri in Tokio bay the emporor was not present.
As Cin C of the army he was obliged to be there.Even when Mac Arthur set up as govenor the remanents of the Jap army were allowed to turn their backs to him.(A great insult in Japan BTW and rightly repaid to the Jap emperor and his wife when they visited the UK by survivors of the death marches].
All in all the Japenese 40 years later have conqured more terrority[courtsey of the Marshall plan]ecnomically than they did militarially.
All in all Japan has benefitted more from being nuked than any other country in the last war.
Do read that book the last mission.I bet it is a bit of an eye opner.
But then who was it that supported their fucked up leaders?The man in the street perhaps?

by Jonah House Wed Aug 13, 2003 08:18

A report from the August 6-9th Faith and Resistance Retreat and a Message
from Bill Frankel Streit in the SHU at Ft. Dix FCI

The Atlantic Life Community's August Faith and Resistance Retreat travelled
this year: August 6 at the Pentagon in DC, August 9 at Bath Iron Works in
Maine.
On August 6th, remembering the bombing of Hiroshima, 41 people emerged from
the subway right next to the Pentagon building. We walked to a nearby
entrance, where Pentagon workers were rapidly going inside.
37 held banners, read statements, and sang. 4 of us got right in the middle
of the stream of people going to work, Some lay down on the cement, others
used sidewalk chalk to draw shadows, remembering the shadows that were all
that was left of people in Hiroshima when the bomb exploded. We were
surprised by Austin, a four year old, who wanted to join us: he lay down
and we drew a shadow around him. One of the blockaders held a picture from
Nagasaki, and knelt in prayer.
Arrested and charged with "Interference with the functions of an agency"
(or "Interfering with the functioning of the Pentagon" were Art Laffin, Liz
McAlister, Malinda Smail, and Susan Crane. Their court date is October 3 in
the Alexandia Federal Court.
The 37 remained holding banners, even when threatened with arrest, and were
able to stay an hour.

The next day, we caravaned to Bath, Maine. At Bath Iron Works, the USS
Monson, an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer (holding 56 Tomahawk Cruise
Missles) was to be christened on August 9th, at 11:00 in the morning. (the
bomb was dropped on Nagasaki on the 9th at 11:02).
Maine Veterans for Peace had organized a rally in a nearby park, the
blessing of a boat-The Philip Berrigan-and a couple of short addresses from
Kathy Kelly, Bruce Gagnon, and Liz McAlister. Then, we all walked to Bath
Iron Works. There were large peace doves, banners, and the boat along with
many people: estimates ranged from the media's 150 to 400. At any rate, a
good crowd.
When we arrived at BIW, some of us got into the line of people
waiting to get in for the ceremony. Others stood across the street, holding
signs, making statements, and singing.
Those of us in line were told by the BIW security that we were not going to
be allowed in, but we waited until we were in front of the gate, and then
unfurled our long banner: "We remember Hiroshima, We remember Nagasaki,
Never again". Thirteen of us were holding the banner across the gate. We
were all quickly arrested and the banner cut from our hands. Grace Ritter
(New York), Jane Van Landingham (Mass.), Jim Harney (Maine), George
Ostenson (Maine), Cath Robson and Sr. Susan Clarkson (Dorothy Day CW in
D.C.), Mary Donnelly (Maine), Lisa Guido (New York), Tom Feagley (Mass),
Kevin Wyer (Maine), Tom Lewis (Mass.), Susan Crane and Liz McAlister (Jonah
House, Baltimore) were all charged with criminal trespass, and have a court
date Sept. 16, at 1 pm.

Bill Frankel Streit, of the Little Flower Catholic Worker in Virgina, is
serving a 6 month sentence (along with Steve Baggarly and Steve Woolford)
for exposing the blood at the Pentagon during the December Feast of the Holy
Innocents Faith and Resistance retreat. He is currently at a FCI in Ft. Dix,
New Jersey. We received this statement from him.

By the time you receive this note, I will most likely be tucked away in the
SHU (segregated housing unit). I follow Greg Boertje and Steve Kelly, SJ
who, before me, continued to resist the powers by noncooperating with this
filthy, rotten system. When I first arrived here at Ft. Dix FCI, the
authorities here pleaded with me to "program". This request came in the
aftermath of Steve Kelly's consistent noncooperation with this unjust racist
system. The time has come for me to refuse to "program". I refuse to
"recall" or be counted today in solidarity and support of Sisters Carol,
Ardeth, and Jackie. I join the day of resistance, July 26th, and refuse to
continue to cooperate with this system that plans nuclear war and world
domination and sustains a prison system blatantly racist and unjust. Our US
military empire threatens the earth and space with weapons of mass
destruction to reinforce a world order of domination and exploitation
creating and maintaining the great disparity between rich and poor. This
injustice extends into US prisons where a mass destruction of lives
continues in huge sentences. The war on drugs is as steeped in lies and
propaganda as the war on Iraq. Both are cloaked, disguised as altruistic
while in reality signify a destruction and domination of entire peoples,
namely, peoples of color. The powers of darkness are enormous. But I believe
the truth is true, that the light shines in the darkness and darkness will
never overcome it. I believe in the power of the cross, nonviolent
resistance to the imperial state, the power of love. I believe even one
person can make a difference. I believe, as Dorothy Day wrote, that God
takes our little actions and increases them like the loaves and fishes. All
we have to do is sow the seed; God will bring the harvest. I willingly put
my trust and hope in the "foolishness" of resisting this system, I can only
call evil. As Gandhi says, " Noncooperation with evil is as much a duty as
cooperation with good."

Bill, Steve and Steve are scheduled for release on September 6th. Until
then you can write Bill at
William Streit
03809-052
Fort Dix FCI
PO Box 38
Fort Dix, NJ 08640

Lots of folks have been asking after Sisters Carol, Ardeth and Jackie. They
are still in county jails in Colorado but expect to be moved soon. They
will probably be in transit for a few weeks. We will let you know when they
reach their (yet to be) designated federal prisons. At that point we will
send out their addresses.

Thanks for all your support and your resistance,
Liz, Susan, Gary, Laurel and Kate