Political Status Picket

by Tadhg Sun Jul 20, 2003 00:28

"Over 30 people attended from a wide range of organisations including Na Fianna, Republican Sinn Féin, the IRSP and members of the Irish Republican Writers Group including Tommy McKearney, an ex-POW and former hunger striker."

Wow. Thirty whole people. I'm sure they felt the Ground shake in Government Buildings.

A "wide range" of people? - bollocks. Republican minority groups, that's all. If you had Trade Unions, Community groups, parties outside republicanism, than I'd say something. But you don't.

Stop living in dreamland, it's not helping your case.

by Yup Sun Jul 20, 2003 03:19

Tahdig dude...as with all these things ...numberswise ...it's not the fault of those who do turn up to say not to power screwin people...it's cynics like you who think democratic participation is sitting on your ass at your keyboard taking cheapshots...come out and work on that tan man

by Tadhg Sun Jul 20, 2003 12:13

...would I want to join such a narrow organisation? I mean, with that kind of membership, it looks like a case of card carrying republicans only, please.

Anyhow, the game is up for these dissident peisoners. For good or ill, after the GFA, and especially after Omagh, most people couldn't give a shit if some dissident republicans have a hard time.

by yup Sun Jul 20, 2003 21:02

The movement's loss....voirism's gain. We lost Tahig, bummer....when your sorry ass is picked up in a sweep...because the cops mistook you for an activist rather than a webspotter,you might despair at such comfort zone cynicism.

Hope you do at least aday in jail at some point boyo so you have some fucking clue what you are talking about.

by Ailín Sun Jul 20, 2003 23:34

Na Fianna Éireann and non-alligned supporters of the prisoners distributed leaflets highlighting the plight of the Republican prisoners in Maghaberry, to supporters of the Provisional movement at a recent function they held.

This was done to highlight the situation to as broad an specture as possible and to make people examine their conscience on this issue. As they comemorate and sing of men who died for the same struggle the men to-day fight for, people must ask themselves, what are they doing now?

by Janus Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:38

I thought seriously about attending the demo at the GPO because I do support political status for these men but as an ex Sinn Fein member I can understand why they might not be as interested in tieing in as you might think. Why should a Sinn Fein member attend an event, even when they agree with the aim, run by an organisation which mounts bitter attacks, often personal in nature, on Sinn Fein; which questions the party's right to exist, to use their name, to describe themselves as republicans.

Basically it seems common sense to me that you can't call people sell-outs every day and then ask them to help you out and be surprised when they don't.

by Mags - Working Class Action Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:40

Tadgh
Why do you imagine the people attending the protest are not involved in Trade Unions, Community groups, etc?. as you say 'outside of Republicanism'. I suppose on the same basis that you claim "most people couldn't give a shit", you also know, by some miraculous process, what every protestor is involved in.

Janus
The aim of the campaign is to involve everyone who supports political status, no matter what parties they might or might not be in. This was only the first event, all Republicans are welcome to get involved and have a say in planning and taking part in activities. Understandably there are a lot of political and personal differences that have developed over the years. But the campaign is not about fighting these battles, it is about the ONE AIM of gaining political status for the men on dirty protest in Maghaberry. So anyone interested in helping out is more than welcome.

by Jo Jo Mon Jul 21, 2003 13:23

I have heard comments by 'dissidents' before that they would not attend 'Provo' organised demonstrations even if they agreed with the protest.

Works both ways methinks.

by Janus Mon Jul 21, 2003 13:36

I know what you're saying but it is a lot more complicated than the usual sectarian bickering between SWP, SP and Shinners. And I would like to get more involved, it's just that to get Sinn Féin activists (And I note none of them have commented on this thread) to take part in this campaign is going to be difficult. It's hard enough getting them involved in something where the SWP is dominant for example, for people they take a lot more serious and have a lot more bad history with it'd be a stretch.

by Mags Mon Jul 21, 2003 15:05

Janus I do understand what you are saying. Of course Republican differences are far more important and fundamental than the bickering of left-wing groups squabbling about abstractions. That is the reason the differences are so bitter.

However this POW campaign is one for the simple and single demand of segregation/political status.
No one is being asked to agree with the political perspectives of other Republican groups, or even to like individuals.

The latest issue of The Blanket has an article appealing for Sinn Féin people to support the campaign. If you want to have a look it is at
http://lark.phoblacht.net/sinnfeinsupport.html

by Tadhg Mon Jul 21, 2003 15:45

"I suppose on the same basis that you claim most people couldn't give a shit"

If only 30 show up to a protest then that's a fair sign that most people couldn't give a shit. Call back when you get 3,000, losers.

by Tadhg Mon Jul 21, 2003 15:52

"Why do you imagine the people attending the protest are not involved in Trade Unions, Community groups, etc?. "

Um...perhaps its because in the article no mention is made of that? We have a "wide range of organisations" such as na fianna eireann, RSF etc but nobody beyond fringe republicanism. No mention of trade unions, community groups or anything like that.

Don't get upset lads because I just pointed out reality to you. Not that I suppose fringe republicanism has any concept of reality anyhow.

by Mags Mon Jul 21, 2003 16:04

You are a muppet. You do not support the prisoners, fine. Then you try to make up spurious reasons about why you don't. You are just anti-republican and you are wasting my time. I am a trade union member and am also involved in community political work.

This event at the GPO was a picket and leafleting - no one is claiming it as a pre-revolutionary mobilisation of the proletariat, etc. The aim was to raise awareness of the fact that POWs are on dirty protest in Maghaberry prison.

It was the first event in Dublin of this campaign, so 30 was a very decent turnout. I have seen many smaller pickets and events over the years. As the campaign develops more people and groups will come on board. Or should we sit back for six months collecting names of groups and bodies willing to put their name on a bit of paper but absolutely nothing else.

No, what is needed is unity in ACTION, and NOW.

by Tadhg Mon Jul 21, 2003 16:08

I wouldn't consider myself anti-republican, just anti dissident head in the sand unwilling to face reality and hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them Republican.

by Tadhg Mon Jul 21, 2003 16:15

There was significant support for the hunger strikers in the 80s, from a broad swathe of society. There is very little support for the latest group of prisoners.

Before they get anywhere, the prisoners and their supporters will have to renounce the "armed campaign". They will get nowhere until they do that. Until then, people will automatically make the connection between the prisoners and the Omagh bombers.

So what about it, Mags? Do you think it will happen?

by Mags Mon Jul 21, 2003 16:37

The men in the H-Blocks were on the blanket, and later the dirty protest, for FIVE YEARS. Apart from their relatives and communities no one gave a fuck. There were tiny protests and white line pickets then too.

That was why there was hunger strikes, to escalate the protest and make people notice. There is no way now a dirty protest is going to go on for FIVE YEARS. That is why the danger of a hunger strike is pretty immediate. None of us want that, which is why we are trying to win the campaign for the return of political status now.

Even in 1981, when 10 men died, there was huge oppostion. OK, thousands of people marched throughout the country and 2 TDs were elected from the jail. I was a teenager at the time and in my school - a rural working class school - support for the prisoners was very much a minority view.

A sort of myth has grown up over the years that there was massive support and the hunger strikers were seen as great heroes at the time. But all I recall is a miserable, tragic summer when you waited on another, inevitable, horrible death. I did not know any of the hunger strikers, so cannot even imagine what the families felt.

I do not support the political groups which have priosoners on protest at present, or their armed struggle.

by Tadhg Mon Jul 21, 2003 16:46

Fair enough Mags, but I feel the prisoners will achieve very little headway until the "armed struggle" is declared over. That's my main point.

The circumstances of the armed struggle are very different now from 20 years ago. Post GFA and (especially) post Omagh Bomb, there's virtually no sympathy for people who still support armed struggle. If they disagree with the GFA and the Sinn Fein strategy, fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinions. But they're not entitled to oppose it with violence.

To be honest, I do feel that the best thing to do would be to seperate them from the other (loyalist) prisoners for a start. After that, we'll see.

by Mags Mon Jul 21, 2003 17:59

Sorry for being a bit ratty above, I thought you were one of the usual idiot trolls just arguing for the sake of it. Good to have a civil discussion on here and people not trying to make a joke of a very serious issue.

That is my point, get a campaign going and get segregation and status. Unity of all Republicans (there are few enough) is needed for this.

After that people can go their own ways again. I (personally) think it is ridiculous and futile and a waste of good mens' lives that they are in jail at this point.

by neither taidhgh nor mags Mon Jul 21, 2003 21:52

I was born a little after Mags. I was not yet a teenager for the Hunger Strikes, I only remember the division amongst the Irish people.
We opinion that political status be given to those who have commited political crime.
What is political crime?
Prisons are not places for anyone.
But is it not long past time that thought were given amongst the 30 who gathered above to the motivations of "political" "crime" when such is said to have been comitted in other areas.
Is it not political for a paperless immigrant to use fake ID?
Is it not political for the poor to shoplift thier food?
Why is it that this "political" status especially in Irish as she is spoken in Ireland, always means that dreary border and the debate it sparks on class, 1916, the left or the provisionally termed future?

·we are all political criminals awaiting status·
BASTA!

by Jimmy Sands Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:48

You got 30 people big deal. Even if people attended who are also involved in their union or in community groups; all those who attended were already (absurdly) commited republicans, no one else gives a shit and rightly so.

The divisions between the Dissident republicans and Sinn Fein are important only because they are shooting each other. Republicanism is a blind alley, only class struggle matters.

You people are irrelevant and disgusting. You attch yourself to the left but you will be found out soon enough, you're fascists.

If one of these so called dissident republicans has the balls to go on hunger strike fair play but they don't.

They have nothing to offer but violence and their cowardice means they haven't even got that.

By the way Mags will you be the hunger striker?

That way your movement could keep the publicity going for about 10 years.

by pat c Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:59

Some people on Indymedia pretend to be radical, but basically at heart they are true blue brits like "Jimmy Sands" above. He is happy to see prisoners mistreated, he would even be hsappy to see Republicans shot down by death squads. he is so devoid of any critical tools he has to resort he can only resort to personalised abuse.

These prisoners were arrested under special laws, tried in special courts and got special sentences. They are entitled to special category status.

this is not about whether or not you support rsf or the cira, i dont. its about prison conditions.

its a strange radical who is happy to see prisoners abused.

by Jimmy Sands Tue Jul 22, 2003 14:15

The picket wasn't about improving prison conditions for all prisoners. It was about securing special conditions for a subset of prisoners.

I don't care about your struggle. It is irrelvant. I didn't take it to personal attacks because I prefer to debate ideas here.

On a personal level dissident republicans tend to be violent halfwits who want to stay important, and their hangers on in the south have severe personal problems, many have drifted from left group to left group all their lives are now on the extreme right (without realising it).

Do you really believe O'Bradaigh is a leftist?

As for being a 'brit'. Pathetic. I'm against deporting refugees I suppose that makes me a 'nigger'.

Picket to improve prison conditions for all prisoners and I'll be there. But you won't do that will you pat c.

You fucking oddball.

by pat c Tue Jul 22, 2003 14:28

"The picket wasn't about improving prison conditions for all prisoners. It was about securing special conditions for a subset of prisoners."

As I said it was about prisoners arrested under special laws, tried in special courts.

"I don't care about your struggle. It is irrelvant. I didn't take it to personal attacks because I prefer to debate ideas here.
"

So why the personal attack on mags?

"On a personal level dissident republicans tend to be violent halfwits who want to stay important, and their hangers on in the south have severe personal problems, many have drifted from left group to left group all their lives are now on the extreme right (without realising it). "

What do you base this on? Its just more abuse. How are people such as Mags & me cwho are involved in anti-bin charges, AFA, pro-choice etc etc on the right?

"Do you really believe O'Bradaigh is a leftist?"

yes i do. he is certainlt not a reactionary. i disagree with his sup[port for the cira and other things but i know whart he stands for.

no one knows who you are. you could be a cop stirring things up.

"As for being a 'brit'. Pathetic."

given the tone of your attack on prisoners who have been tried by special courts after being arrested under special laws

"I'm against deporting refugees I suppose that makes me a 'nigger'."

now you are showing yourself up as an idiot. that type of mental gymnastics is what you expect from a 13 yr old. the very fact that you have to drag in non-sequitars exposes your lack of self belief.

"Picket to improve prison conditions for all prisoners and I'll be there. But you won't do that will you pat c."

i believe all prisoners should have better conditions. why dont you organise such a picket?

but as i have pointed out, these prisoners are arrested under special laws, tried in special courts and get special sentences. thats why they deserve special status.

"You fucking oddball. "

gee, i'm shattered. where did you acquire such devastating polemical skills? i am devoid of any riposte.

by Jimmy Sands Tue Jul 22, 2003 14:45

I support improving conditions for all prisoners and I refuse to allow a gang of murderous reactionaries to be fetishised by their spherical hangers on.

You have shot yourself in the foot with that brit comment it's not a sequiter to point that out, you're a racist.

As for me being a cop pathetic.

I died for this country.

by pat c Tue Jul 22, 2003 15:37

"I support improving conditions for all prisoners and I refuse to allow a gang of murderous reactionaries to be fetishised by their spherical hangers on."

gee, so you support better conditions for rapists, pedophiles and OAP muggers. but you wont support special status for people arrested bt special police under special laws and tried by special courts.

"You have shot yourself in the foot with that brit comment it's not a sequiter to point that out, you're a racist. "

no my dear boy, i am not racist. i hate those brit-lovers who see republicans as terrorists but who cheer on the forces of state oppression and get their rocks off by laughing at the mistreatment of republican prisoners.

nothing racist about hating british imperialists or their irish based fore-lock tugging lackeys.

"As for me being a cop pathetic."

you are an anonymous fool. no one knows who you are or what you have ever done.

by post clarifiaction Tue Jul 22, 2003 15:55

I look forward to the new thinker of the Left in ireland's expansion.

by Tiocfaidh Armani Tue Jul 22, 2003 16:46 Ireland

People say because of our crititisms of the provos that they would not stand up for the prisoners of the POW's?
Let me make a point to you, when in the late 70's and early 80's and the prisoners were fighting for the same as they are now, the likes of yourself and others called on the SDLP to make a stand with you...yet did you not refer to them as the stoop down low party.... and was it not the same as you asking for their support as we are asking your support now?
It matters nothing when peoples lives are at stake.Real real and wake up, its times like these, when we say you aren't Republican, that we realise WE ARE RIGHT! You would put the stickys to shame.
People will lose their lives and you will still be licking your wound about how those big bad "dissidents" are verbally abusing us.. well tell the family of Joe O'Connoe and Gareth O'Connor about how abused you provos feel, i'm sure they'll want to listen to your petty moaning!
VICTORY TO THE POW's!

by Jim Gralton Tue Jul 22, 2003 16:54

Socialists should all argue for better conditions for prisoners and the eventual removal of the enequalities in society that lead to so many of the working class to end up in prison. We should also challenge the two tier legal system that allows white collar crime (tax evasion etc)to go largely unpunished. (if more business men were put in prison I am sure prison conditions would improve.

The protest for political status for (dissident) republicans should at the very least have had the full endorsement of (P)Sinn Fein. After all, they campaigned for years for PS for their own prisoners and INLA,UDA,UVFers.

Socialists must look above the issue of wether we support or not the actions of the republican prisoners and rather ask, was the process used to imprison them fair or even legal? If not, then we are duty bound to oppose this injustice and join the protest.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Féin Tue Jul 22, 2003 18:48 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Meant to get along to this thread earlier.

Firstly, I personally support the campaign for political status for those prisoners in Maghaberry. (I can imagine the celebrations that will generate in the blocks)

Secondly, Sinn Fein has stated on the record that we support political status for those prisoners. At the last Ard Fhéis the Ard Comhairle supported a motion from Tallaght Sinn Fein:

315 This Ard Fhéis supports the right of all political prisoners held in Britain and Ireland, to political status.
Ard Chomhairle
Cumann Markievicz, Baile Átha Cliath

The motion was passed unanimously.

Thirdly, Janus stated he was a member of the party in the past, not that he is and not that he is representing our views, which he isn't.

Fourthly, I can assure you, as a Sinn Fein activist and regular reader of Saoirse (See, it's not just the Branch who buy it), I do not lie awake at night weeping gentle tears at the bad things you say about us. I think left wing politics in general, and republican politics in particular gives us a thick skin.

As it happens, I passed the protest on Saturday heading, as most Dublin activists do on their days off from one protest to another. Saw Mags there and took a leaflet and would have stayed to chat but had to catch a bus. I didn't see a petition there but if there had been one I would have had no problem at all in signing it and will do so if and when given the opportunity. Fair play to those people taking part in the campaign.

by Mags Tue Jul 22, 2003 19:30

Thanks Justin. I see in the Belfast Telegraph that the Mike Ritchie of Coiste issued a statement saying:

"Throughout the last 25 years, each time the NIO introduced forced integration in the prisons it resulted in chaos and needless suffering by prisoners. One only has to recall the experience of the 1980s to understand that this policy does not work, and to employ it at this time is wholly unwise. We are calling on all our groups and members to support our call to end this policy and to attend all protests in solidarity with the prisoners."

This is very positive and all Republicans must unite around the single demand of political status for the POWs. If people want to go back to their disagreements after that, then fair enough.

by Tiocfaidh Armani Tue Jul 22, 2003 19:53

We hope to have as many believers as possible and all support is welcome and of great help.