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Leaked internal bulletin of SWP Ireland national |
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news report
 Thursday May 30, 2002 22:46 by Anon - Trotwatch Ireland
 The following information has been taken from two internal party bulletin's of the Socialist Workers Party which are for use in the party's coming conference which is taking place on Friday 7th June to Sunday 9th of June. We have acquired this information via a disgruntled source inside of the SWP. We believe that the information inside of the Discussion Bulletin's are of perticular interest to the activist community in ireland. Considering the SWP has used its weight in recent years to try and control the movement in Ireland we believe that publishing this information via Indymedia is a justified act. Introduction The following information has been taken from two internal party bulletin's of the Socialist Workers Party which are for use in the party's coming conference which is taking place on Friday 7th June to Sunday 9th of June. We have acquired this information via a disgruntled source inside of the SWP. We believe that the information inside of the Discussion Bulletin's are of perticular interest to the activist community in ireland. Considering the SWP has used its weight in recent years to try and control the movement in Ireland we believe that publishing this information via Indymedia is a justified act. The bulletin's which are written by the Political Committee of the SWP shed light on what has at times been refuted by members of the SWP (ie. the party is based around recruiting and paper sales) and the fiasco that was the aftermath of the RTS party. It also shows how out of touch the SWP is with the people it claims to represent. It shows how the SWP is lost in a movement that has a conscience of its own and doesnt need the "leadership" of the SWP. This is not the entire content of these Bulletin's but we have taken information which directly relates to how the SWP works with the rest of the activist community and how it really works. No elements have been changed or spruced up to make it interesting. This is word for word quotes with some ommisions of material we dont think is very interesting. Another reason we havent posted the entire content is that there is alot and its alot to type out. Enjoy!
The SWP on rising to the challenge. "Over the last few years, the SWP has earned it right to be in the forefront of that movement, through the leading role we have played in the fight against racism, the anti-capitalist movement, the movement against the war, as well as countless local campaigns and protests. In the process we have taken enormous strides forward in terms our ability to lead and initiate protests. The SWP stood the test of war as well. We were the main instigators of the Irish Anti-War Movement, which called two enormous demonstrations against the Afghan War in Dublin and dozens of anti-war protests around the country. Without the SWP, with a tradition of sizeable marches in the capital, it is doubtful whether the rest of the Irish Left would have risen to the challenge... We need to throw our resources into building the movement against the war and against capitalism. But we will also need to strengthen the party through this involvement. In practice this means: We need to recruit widely to the party, on the straightforward basis that we are for building the biggest possible movement and that we have the most consistent explanation of the connection between war and capitalism. Despite our reputation for pushing recruitment, far more members need to be involved in this...
On implementing SWP strategies. "9. The key in implementing all of this is a much stronger SWP… The profile of the SWP rose enormously throughout the election campaign and in the aftermath of the police riot in Dame St. We now have to reflect the wider changes that are taking place." "united front work has brough important results. The Irish-Anti-War Movement , for example has a large central grouping of around 15 people of which SWP is in a minority. We work well with other political forces and have suceeded in organising big mobilisations..." On getting members and branches more active via paper sales. "The key to that is serious paper distribution. Socialist Worker is the eyes and ears of the party." On the RTS demo. "11. We have entered an enormously political period where ideas learnt in theory can quickly be translated into practice. The SWP needs a high immersion in struggle but it can only do so successfully with a sharp theoretical axe. Take a simple example. On the bank holiday weekend the police attacked the Reclaim the Steets march, hoping to break the rising spirit of protest. One response from RTS was to refuse to talk to the corporate media and to look into more conspirational tactics. Our members in Globalise Resistance argued for a broad based demonstration that involved reformist politicians. We faced a huge assault from the sectarian left about 'hi-jacking' which in turn was picked up in the mainstream media. But the balance sheet is that Globalise Resistance pulled off a huge well stewarded demo of over 3000 against the police. It was the combination of a sharp intervention and wider discussions on the role of the state which did the trick. The SWP's huge strength is that it is ideologically cohesive and strong at translating its ideas into practice." On recruiting. "12. Finally the SWP needs to recruit massively over the coming period. But the style and methods needs to be different."
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Comments (32 of 32)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32Can you scan and post the whole document?
Can you not respect that these are private internal bulletins for members of the SWP?
How do they affect you?
If you don't agree with the SWP why can't you get over it and carry on with whatever political activity you do.
For your info, we are trying to build a revolutionary party, therefore yes, we do ask people to join - If you don't wanna join, then don't.
The paper is an alternative to what you get in the mainstream media with some good news and views in it like many publications you see on demos etc. If you don't want to buy it and read it for whatever reason, don't - Big deal!
I need:
Apologies the rest of the document is typical fight talk by the SWP and i dont have any text recognition software. Again, apologies. We are hoping to post in the future on a website not too far from completion.
James:
One of your members leaked these documents to us. They believed that the activist community at large should know of the SWP's next activities. For need of open discussion we posted the material above. I myself dislike the activity of the SWP, i continue my own political activity but I cannot stand how the SWP over-recruits and hi-jacks certain activities. Nor do i like the arrogance of the SWP in believing Socialist Worker should be the "paper of the movement".
Fair enough, you dislike the activities of the SWP.
Why is it more important to concentrate on the SWP's activities instead of your own?
As to "over recruitment" (is there such a thing)and "hijacking", please tell me how i am involved in these activities.
Like i said, if you want to join or read the paper you will, if you don't then you won't, it is purely your choice.
Still on the whole privacy thing, they are for members only so that they can be discussed before and during conference, can you not respect that?
jc
... thats there no internal documents being posted from the Socialist Party, Sinn Fein, Labour Party. Why is that? Surely there are members with problems in those organisations. But like John said, can a person with any kind of respect see that these are for members of an party to read before their conference?
Leaks are good - more leaks please on all parties and subjects - this site is perfect for whistleblowing and whistleblowers - you don't even have to deal with underworked overpaid rte hacks for getting info out anymore.
as for conspiritorial attitudes to the media - that's a laugh - indymedia happened to spread this story - with the help of RTS - all over NI, IRL, UK. For fuck sake it took over the mass media in ireland and that was before gXXXe rang JXX to get him out of bed.
fuckoff swp
you fucked up our movement and nearly me
fuckoff sp youre the same
i hate the wsm too
-jake fighter jock idf/af
No wonder that the left is so disorganised in Ireland, if the best you can come up with is debating an SWP internal document. At least they are trying to do something, which is more than appears can be said about you sad eejits who spend all your time engaged in mental masturbation on the internet.
Come on let's face it, their bulletin is right. They are the real leaders of the movement. Just leave it to them. We are all sectarian morons.
Annie, I'm getting damned bored of the repeated stupid 'lets all stop being sectarian' calls, often accompanied by ignorant ad hominem attacks (spend all one's time on the internet). If you think an article is sectarian, please give as concise an explanation as you can of which bits are sectarian and why you think so. Repeated naive calls for stopping sectarianism will only serve to strangle debate.
Incidentally, your reply was much more sectarian than anything you were replying to. You have the arrogance to assume that all of those who you are disagreeing with are part of some sad group of internet addicts. The ability to dismiss critics as belonging to a worthless group when you know NOTHING about these people (they posted anonomously) is a worrying sign of a cult mentality.
Attack the arguments not the people.
John, let me get this straight you're asking us to;
"on the whole privacy thing, they are for members only so that they can be discussed before and during conference, can you not respect that?"
If this was a Fianna Fail leak or a Sinner leak you'd have no bother in justifying this, but since it's a SWP Leak, we need to respect your privacy?
And what is the SWP's reaction to this, the usual whinging about sectarism and now privacy, never actually going to redress or discuss the issues raised. The SWP's favoured way to respond to any criticism, is to attack the writers dedication to the "cause", and accuse them of sectarism which is "destroying the cause."
People are angry with the SWP's behaviour because they view the SWP as opportunist (Selling the workplace, fuck I'm glad I'm not in an office with you guys) and damaging the "cause" (by driving off good natured students from the leftwing, by their bullyboy recruitment tactics).
Would you people look hard at the way you leech onto other causes, and your tactics and then maybe we'll be nicer to you.
And respect your privacy......
Although I wouldn't normally bother in having a go at bashing the SWP, the routine attacks on posters for being 'sectarian' has eventually annoyed me enough to allow me to indulge myself for once.
The reason that this internal SWP document is interesting to many active people is that many people who find themselves in close contact with SWP members have no idea of what the actual strategic or political thinking is of the SWP. Many SWP members have only a vague idea of what the organisations's politics are. For non-members this is obviously even more difficult .
I have never seen an internal document of the Irish SWP before and am quite interested to read this one since there are quite a few things in it that I find very informative, things that I wouldn't have been able to figure out from the paper or the magazine.
To take a few choice quotes:
"Over the last few years, the SWP has earned it right to be in the forefront of that movement, through the leading role we have played in the fight against racism, the anti-capitalist movement, the movement against the war, as well as countless local campaigns and protests."
I notice that the SWP's 'right ' to be in the forefront of the movement does not in any way depend upom the will of the movement! This actually seems to be making the point that the SWP thinks it has the 'right' to declare its leadership over any movement due to its (very dubious) past record of involvement in other struggles.
"Without the SWP, with a tradition of sizeable marches in the capital, it is doubtful whether the rest of the Irish Left would have risen to the challenge.."
But what was the point of these marches? We walked around Dublin, heard a few dull speeches and then dispersed. What came out of it (not including paper sales for the SWP)?.
In truth the SWP seems to call a march as soon as it thinks there is any issue on which it can get some numbers out or even if it just needs to give its new members something to do. Sometimes they are large, but this really depends mainly on the issue being powerful enough. The thing is that since the SWP is the largest of the politically active organisations on the left, with a significant number of full timers, it will almost always succeed in organising a demonstration unilaterally before other groups can, as long as that is what it trys to do. Over the years I have walked on dozens of marches that were instigated by the SWP and my abiding memory is of small demoralising marches. The annoying thing is that I never get to discuss the appropriate tactics or strategies, I never get to ask the question "what are we trying to achieve by this march?" The SWP calls the march, selects the speakers and I am expected to turn up and walk behind them, or worse still stay at home and do nothing. As a member of a small group on the left (WSM), we could of course organise our own demonstration. However, it is difficult enough to succeed in a mobilisation for any left organisation, it is next to impossible if a larger group on the left is putting resources into advertising a competitor. I don't have a problem with the SWP putting work into organising political demonstrations, I just resent the fact that there is no attempt made to include other people in debate about the strategy and politics of such marches.
"The profile of the SWP rose enormously throughout the election campaign and in the aftermath of the police riot in Dame St. We now have to reflect the wider changes that are taking place."
Come on, you're kidding yourselves, maybe Joe got on Telly a few times but you got your asses kicked at the polls.
"On the bank holiday weekend the police attacked the Reclaim the Steets march, hoping to break the rising spirit of protest. One response from RTS was to refuse to talk to the corporate media and to look into more conspirational tactics. Our members in Globalise Resistance argued for a broad based demonstration that involved reformist politicians. We faced a huge assault from the sectarian left about 'hi-jacking' which in turn was picked up in the mainstream media. "
Now this is simply dishonest. SWP members in GR didn't 'argue' for a broad based demonstration involving reformists, they went ahead any called it unilaterally, claiming to have been involved in organising the RTS protest. I'd say that this type of thing falls pretty squarely under the definition of 'hi-jacking'. Most of the criticism post May 6th was about this mis-representation, ie lying, about the involvement of GR in RTS. The SWP called a demonstration, chose the speakers, set the agenda and pretended that they were somehow involved in organising RTS. The RTS people and the victims of the police riot were expected to row in behind the SWP's decisions. To their great credit RTS saw the importance of the mobilisation and swallowed their pride and joined in. It is amazing that it's only a few weeks later and already the SWP is writing off these people as the 'sectarian left'. Sectarian for complaining about lying and anti-democratic behaviour. Sectarian for helping in the mobilisation for May 10th despite the recent bad-feeling. In Stalin's day it took longer for history to be rewritten.
"But the balance sheet is that Globalise Resistance pulled off a huge well stewarded demo of over 3000 against the police. It was the combination of a sharp intervention and wider discussions on the role of the state which did the trick."
This reads like Pinochet gloating after his coup. The intervention may have been sharp but it will shock many people to see the SWP congratulating itself for an affair that left a bad taste of dishonesty and unaccountability in the mouth.
HERE IN DUBLIN WORKING CLASS PEOPLE HATE YOU. WE DON'T WANT YOU, WE'LL NEVER VOTE FOR YOU. WE HATE YOU!
One thing ive noticed about this site is its turned into a Bitching Forum. That SWP bulletin is no big deal, it was published for its members. I dont know why everyone is geting so cooked up about it, Yes it does sound arrogant at times i do aggree with that. While the SWP are very forward in its recruiting techniques, at the same time you cant just wait around and wait for the people to sign up. Asking people straight out would be a more effective means of recruiting, as most people interested in the radical might be uneasy about it and thus not go forward themselves. I got recruited that way, i was in Derry and bought a copy of the Socialist Worker. Then one member asked me to join, i was pleased to get a chance to finally make my voice heard through a strong and organised Political Organisation. I dont see any other Left Organisations asking me to join?!?. I agree with the SWP stepping up their recruiting campaign, as they said its the only way to make a powerfull more effective organisation. Though that alone and spreading the news of the Socialist Workers and the recruiting campaign will not achieve the Socialist goal. What gets in the way is the split in the left community, im sure you all will aggree with that!. Just look at all the differnt left organisations. There must be atleast 20 differnt ones!
"Bitching Forum": the inability of the S.W.P. to address criticisms of their organisation and actions, to deride attempts at open debate and discussion, surely demonstrate that the criticisms of them are true, for the basis of democratic practise is open debate. Only the undemocratic and anti-democratic are against open debate.
The point is to change the world for the better.
Komsomol folks was the Hitler Youth type organisation in the U.S.S.R. . A state which as we all know was a totalitarian dictatorship which murdered millions.
Here's a brief discription of it:
"Komsomol (Vsesoiuznyi Leninskii kommunisticheskii soiuz molodezhi)
All-Union Lenin Communist Youth League. An organization administered by the CPSU (q.v.) for youth between ages fourteen and twenty-eight. Since its establishment in 1918, the Komsonol has helped the party prepare new generations for an elite role in Soviet society. It has instilled in young people the principles of Marxism-Leninism (q.v.) and involved them in large-scale industrial projects, such as factory construction and the virgin land campaign (q.v.). Members were expected to be politically conscious, vigilant, and loyal to the communist cause. Membership privileges included better opportunities for higher education and preferential consideration for career advancement. In 1982 the Komsomol had 41.7 million members.
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/su_glos.html "
if the SWP has a problem with these documents going public, it means they obviously have some things to hide.
As an activist of thiry years in the US I am appalled at the campaign (which is really directed against all Leninist leaning socialists) against the Irish SWP. This kind of behavior is sadly familiar to most peace activists because it is straight from the American FBI's COINTELPRO program to destoy the entire Left. All it's components mind you!
The test of any real rebel or radical is their ability to judge WHO is the enemy. Reprinting private texts and concentrating on other fighters against injustice weakens our entire movement and responsable people should demand it STOPS.
Finally, give me a break, the "expose" falls flat. From what I read the SWP seems to be gearing up for an effective fight against globilization and war. Not a bad idea. That's why the sociakist groups are winning new members.
This is moronic. The SWP's ideology is based on anti-stalinism. So why when they attack stalinists (who surely claim to be part of the left) that's ok, but when everybody else points out that the SWP behaves like stalinists that's sectarian? Can you please explain this?
This is an extremely hilarious discusion here. In the USA, myself and many activists and organizers have seen the exact same behavoir from the SWP's former sister organization, the ISO (International Socialist Organization). The ISO does exactly the same things: oppertunisticly leaching onto real movements trying to recruit and sell papers. It's all flash and bang organizing to recruit and sell papers, but never does anything in the long run. For instance they put together regional student anti-war conferences all over the US in Novemeber of 2001, 100's came to each of them. But they all wound up in disaster as students refused to be bullied into falling in line with the ISO's pre-planned agenda, now the organization doesn't exist.
What's really funny is that the SWP uses the exact same rhetoric in response to criticism as the ISO uses. They try to say you are dividing and not helping the movement, you are red-baiting them (even though it's being said by other stripes of revolutionaries), you are sectarian, and they use all this rhetoric while trying to avoid the real issues you are calling them on. I'm glad people in Ireland have wised up to these left-wing oppurtunist leaches as well!
What a lot of red in the bed crap!! I have joined a revolutionary socialist group and am happy to contribute to fighting this awful system that is destroying our world.
Me thinks that the green monster is out to get the reds. Too bad! We are growing very steadily now and this means we get the flack from the groups who cannot and will not prosper.
There is a deep dishonesty in the attempts by various SWP / IST supporters here to suggest any criticism of their organisation is sectarian. After all their publications over the last couple of years have contained a considerable number of attacks on other left ideas, in particular those of anarchism. And these attacks have often been based on lies and slander, see the URL below for some replied to these articles that exposed the dishonest methods being used
Does no-one here have a problem with the fact that this was poseted anonymously? One of the postings refered to the fact that it is a text book pig ploy to divide the left.
I don't want to go down this road, but this is a sectarian move. Someone is trying to weaken the SWP and therefore the Irish left. It is malicious and SELECTIVE. Is it a surprise to anyone that the SWP will discuss the state and future of anti-capitialism in Ireland. Are we to believe that SP/WSM/WP/SF and even the establishent partied don't discuss it.
I don't find anything in the SELECIVE bit leaked offensive. I find the small mindedness of Rose and her ilk far more frustrating.
The reality is, like them or not, they are the highest profile hard left group on the ground. Political discussions, by all means. Bullshit jealously from anonomous sectarians- very boring,
Oh I'm so jealous. You're so big and powerful.
Come on, give us a break. 99% of working class people don't like you. Of yes of course the working class is sectarian!
Good answer Rose.
Avoid the issue completly why don't you.
I'd like to point out that there have been several real criticisms levied against the SWP in this thread. This included at least one claim that the SWP was putting bare-faced lies into their internal publications, which they know to be lies. As far as I can see absolutely no response has been made to any of the criticisms by anybody, whether in the SWP or one of their supporters. All of the pro-SWP comments have basically said, "Stop being so Sectarian" and have even laid the laughable claim about COINTELPRO involvement. I mean c'mon, does anybody really think that the CIA or the special branch spent years implanting a team of crack, deep-cover moles in UCD's SWSS, perfecting their assumed identity as arts students before springing them as the SWP was just about to make the revolutionary breakthrough? If you do you need treatment for paranoid schizophrenia, or cult deprogramming at least.
The thing is, that if a large number of such criticisms were laid against some politician in the media, he or she would surely bang the "stop being so sectarian/partisan" drum, but they'd at least have to make some effort to address the claims raised, even if to deny them, or to say that their words had been misunderstood. The SWP does not even have the grace to attempt to respond to any criticisms. I am certain that their leadership knows full well of this entire discussion, yet they won't respond to these very serious claims! I mean come on SWP'ers, you're asking us to trust you'se as the party to hold the reins of power on behalf of our class and, although you're still a million miles from having the faintest sniff of any power, you're already displaying worse ethics than the corrupt bastards who run the show at the moment.
To repeat, when politicians get exposed in the media, or accused of wrongdoing (such as lying), they invariably respond in some way. The SWP does not. Maybe they think they're above such bickering. I bet most politicians do too. If the SWP won't answer open criticism on such a public forum, god help the critics if they ever get their hands on power.
Red dub I'm waiting. Can you explain the miserable performance of the SWP in the last election?
"Does no-one here have a problem with the fact that this was poseted anonymously?"
If you are such an honest person then why use the alter ego of Red Dub? I have posted this reply as John, my first name, i go no further. Why? To protect the identity of the member of the SWP who sent us this information. That discussion ends here. Nearly every post on IMC Ireland is posted anonymously.
"One of the postings refered to the fact that it is a text book pig ploy to divide the left. I don't want to go down this road, but this is a sectarian move."
To put your simple mind to rest i am in no way a cop and i very much doubt the cops would ever find the SWP of all organisations threatening. Second i am not sectarian i posted this to indymedia to allow for open debate which might have involved the SWP itself, as per usual this is not the case.
"Someone is trying to weaken the SWP and therefore the Irish left."
The SWP is not the irish left, although they wish they were, one party system anyone? Therefore an attack on the SWP is not an attack on the Irish left. This idea is rediculous. Sadly the SWP as usual cannot handle criticism and does not even opt to defend itself, why? Because what is posted about the SWP is well true.
"It is malicious and SELECTIVE."
Selective (i presume what parts were taken from the bulletin, the reason being we were not typing out 25 pages), we took out what was of interest to the activist community in ireland. We didnt choose it in fact, the member of the swp who leaked this information pointed it out.
"Is it a surprise to anyone that the SWP will discuss the state and future of anti-capitialism in Ireland. Are we to believe that SP/WSM/WP/SF and even the establishent partied don't discuss it."
No one claims it to be there property and no one elses, the SWP talks of turning there paper into the paper of the movement, i mean come on who rights this shit. Socialist Rag certainly doesnt speak for me and id say very few of the 1000+ who attended the RTS party.
"I don't find anything in the SELECIVE bit leaked offensive."
Brainwashed.
"I find the small mindedness of Rose and her ilk far more frustrating."
Apologies we shall lay down and let all that ordinary people worked for be destroyed and taken over by the SWP. Again, apologies, how stupid of us.
The reality is, like them or not, they are the highest profile hard left group on the ground.
Yes, high profile because they rob the spotlight from groups who put alot of hard work into the ground and dont sell papers!
Political discussions, by all means. Bullshit jealously from anonomous sectarians- very boring,
Again my name is John, happy! It doesnt matter do you even know who i am i could post as Seymour Skinner for fuck sake for all you know thats my name.
All I am trying to say is that Indymedia as a concept is falling apart due to classic leftwing infighting. A large proportion of the threads end up degenerating into faction fighting and it is depressing. SF and the SWP get it most. I am not for a minuite saying that political discussion and critique shouldn't happen, but a lot of it is abusive and petty. I feel this discussion falls into that variety.
How many popeople interested in left wing ideas are reading this stuff and being turned off by the negativity they read?
I am not SWP but i read their paper, especially the Irish titbits that you don't get anywhere else. I feel it is a good alternative to the mainstream media. As are the WSM and SP's stuff. If the SWP want to push this at anticapitalist events, so what. If they feel thay need to get better organised, so what. They are entitled to try and recruit, as are all organisations and groups. Get involved yourselves and reduce their influence if you are that offended.
Rose, I'm sure you know the Trot line on elections, dunghills and all that. I like the way anyone who defends the SWP is SWP. Its the Israeli line on Palestinians again. Defend their rights and you are a terrorist.
I suppose its too mush to ask for sensible replies, and an acceptance that people are reading this stuff who might like to get involved but see shit flying not serious debate.
Declan the purpose of indymedia is not to act as a discussion board. As the name implies its to cover new stories. The discussion board element balances the fact that anyone can post to indymedia - if someone posts crap then they can be pretty sure that right under their article will appear a number of posts pointing out it is crap.
In terms of the SWP this 'right to reply' is not something they are used to. A lot of their practise is based around pulling strokes (setting up front groups etc) secure in the knowledge that while those they fuck over may complain to their mates they seldom have any way of reaching a wider audience. Indymedia has quite suddenly allowed these isolated individuals and small groups to speak to a very much wider activists audience. If you follow the threads you will find the same criticisms popping up again and again, apperantly from different and unconnected activsts.
It is noticable that the SWP supporters here (I don't care if you are a member or not, membership of the SWP is pretty meaningless, it just means you have signed a card at some point in the last year) almost NEVER answer these criticisms. Instead they repeat the old line that any criticism of them is 'sectarain and dividing the movement'. At the same time in their own publications they have been printing all sorts of lies about other sections of the movement! See the link for replies to some of these
The SP comes in for far less flak, probably because they are a lot less manipulative. Their fronts (Socialist Youth) don't make a big deal out of trying to appear independent and they don't have the habit of setting up campaigns for one month to skim off recruits. I have problems with the way they organise but I won't go into them here.
What the SWP are experiencing on indymedia is called feedback. Simply put if you fuck someone around they will complain about it, if you make a habit of it then they will make a habit of complaining. The thinking SWP members reading this should think about this a bit - it should be obvious that what you could get away with in the past will do a lot more damage in the long term today.
You are right that the appearance of bickering is not going to make the movement attractive (although I wouldn't overstate this - after 20th century 'socialism' disagreeing in public is also a requirement of building a movement). But your wrong in focusing your criticism on the people making the complaints rather then the organisation that is causing them to complain.
While I'd agree with most of what you say above, Andrew, I'm a bit surprised by your description of Socialist Youth as a Socialist Party front.
Socialist Youth is the youth wing of the Socialist Party, we make no secret of that. You don't have to be a member of the Socialist Party to be a member of Socialist Youth, but we don't lie to anybody about the link. Socialist Youth has its own conferences, meetings, and activities. It makes its own decisions.
Using the word "front" to describe Socialist Youth removes all meaning from the concept. Any organisation set up by another organisation isn't a "front".
Err Brian I'm not sure where you are disagreeing with me here as the point I was making was that the SP is more open about its fronts then the SWP. And front is the appropiate word for something a political organsiation sets up AND controls. It's only a serious criticism when the controlling organisation insists on pretending that the front is independant. If you don't like the term front as applied to SY then please suggest an alternative way of descriping its relationship with the SP.