Socialist Alternative go public

by hairy activist Tue May 21, 2002 22:49

I've just checked out their website. Its really good. In particular I'd recommend their library - they have a very good selection of writings from marxist and anarchist traditions ready to download.

Quite impressive given that a few weeks ago these guys were just the UCD SWSS branch.

by Black Cat - Belfast Media collective Wed May 22, 2002 19:35 belfast_media_collective at hotmail dot com

Yep, we've heard about that split. then again, no big surprise. Socialists have been doing this since they exist. does it mean some wised up? I don't think so. Funny enough, they (SWP split or not) have been very friendly with the anarchists in Belfast ( although they called us the most sectarian group in NI, what do they mean? more than the DUP and Sinn fein put together?). They are dying for some fresh air but fuck them. This year, if they try to use the circled A for their election campaign, they will regret it bitterly.
No matter how hard they try, anarchists are sexier,haha...

Black Cat

by Black Cat - Belfast Media collective Wed May 22, 2002 19:45 belfast_media_collective at hotmail dot com

Right, ok, I should have check the website first. And, yep, they are definitely trying to play the "libertarian" game. This is gross. Leninists with black and red flags? Anarchist Party? What the fuck? This just explain everything about them coming to us recently and calling us comrades ( yes, I know, make you feel sick isn't it?) and look at our bookstall, being all interested and even reading our publications...Leninist plot?
Right. time to talk to these guys and let them know what we think. If they don't understand verbally, well, the war is only starting...

Black Cat

by Donal O Liathain - Socialist Alternative Wed May 22, 2002 20:28 IthinkIm at bigfoot dot com

Your two rants seem to be based on one point, that Socialist Alternative are based in Belfast. I have no idea where you got that idea. It's wrong. Your problem with the revolutionary library is just messed up, and shows deep-founded personal problems with your ideology. If you were confident enough in Anarchism you would have no problem with people being able to read both Socialist and Anarchist writings.

Your also saying is that Leninists are trying subvert your group by saying hello, talking to you and reading your books. You really have too much time on your hands. But I forgot, Anarchism is sexier, cause we all got into politics to pull.

By the way, I don't take too well to being threat'nd

by Andrew Thu May 23, 2002 10:34

'Anarchists' who think they can 'defend' anarchism by threatening to assault those they disagree with need to wise up fast. This is the language of fascism, not anarchism and is only suitable for building Gulags. A libertarian society can only be built/exist if there are no restrictions on discussion.

The SA group appear to be making an honest attempt to re-evaluate the leninist tradition they come from. There is an online discussion on the topic of leninism and anarchism happening with one of them at the link below.

by Curious Thu May 23, 2002 15:51

Very good website, quite impressed. Just one question.
The SA say there is no other socialist parties in Ireland apart from the SWP. But the socialist party is around the same size with one elected TD and almost another. We have an international too. We are respected (by most) and don't have the same tactical ideas, recruitment etc. We are a revoloutionary socialist party making a serious attempt to convince people beyond the usual lefty suspects.Why don't the people from SA join us?
I can understand being burnt by the SWP, but all parties aren't the SWP.

by Alan MacSimoin Thu May 23, 2002 16:45

Who are Black Cat/Belfast Media Collective?

He/she/they seems to know little about anarchism. Anarchists do not threaten people simply because we have political differences with them. That sort of behavious is, by its nature, authoritarian - which is the opposite of anarchism.

And what sort of anarchist does not welcome people from other radical traditions being prepared to look at anarchism?

Are we dealing with some silly person who knows little about anarchism? Or with somebody trying to place barriers in the way of ex-SWP members who are willing to take a fresh look at Leninism?

by Black Cat Thu May 23, 2002 20:25

Right ok. Interesting. What can I say? I am an idiot and fascist. Or I just have a twisted humor? Yes, I do know none of these guys are in Belfast and I do believe the SWP over here were just being curious about anarchism because of the split. That's true.
Now, I will never ever fight physically a trotskist unless he/she starts ( unlikely). I do have socialist mates and even if i have a skinhead, I am not a fascist bastard.
But, I also have seen socialists flirting with anarchism and the result is or funny or confusing for the rest of the people. The question is do we need more groups/organisations on this tiny island? Yes if they have a point but I think it might be more constructive to open a discussion rather than spending a lot of time and energy building tons of groups. Is it a phase for them to move to something else? Great. Or?
Reclaiming anarchism? And why not?Is tradition a dirty word in our mouth? our past goes back before leninism and leninists hated and still hate us passionately. I was only stirring shit and what i meant by hitting back first not physical at all.
I am a he or a she? I am a spanish guy ( student) who uses the Belfast Media Collective email simply because I help them and they let me use their address. Leave them alone, they are not responsible for my stupidity.
no matter what, I will never ever believe that leninists can change unless they stop being leninists. Maybe in Ireland it is different but not where I am from.

Hasta,
El black gato

by Black Cat Thu May 23, 2002 20:36

i am in no group because I will leave soon at the end of the semester. At home, I am more involved in the occupation movement and alternative media. Shall I even say I could be considered as an issurectinist?

I don't do what i do to pull men/women...eh my accent and my hairy spanish chest are enough ( then again, bad joke, it is a joke, people).
Anarchists are sexier come from a graffiti in the US " Revolutionaries are sexier". I thought I could subvert it but obviously, it is forbidden.

The consequence of my mad humor is great, I have to say. Why the things are so mixed up over here? I don't know. I thought people had humor in ireland or maybe it is only in Belfast where people have this national game called "slagging".

Adios,
GN ( mad Juan)

by Karen - BMC Thu May 23, 2002 20:52 belfast_media_collective at hotmail dot com

Dear all,

The recent silly messages from the black cat was not in any case related to the policy of the Belfast Media Collective. The BMC does not let itself into such debates simply because we are an alternative media group and not a political one.
Knowing the black cat, I personnally knows he is a big mouth and that's the story with them big hot blooded people that we are ( I am not spanish but I know where he comes from alright).

We, the BMC are ready to give our help to any non-authoritarian groups or individuals. We even have communists/leninists films and we will depassionate the old argument between anarchist adn leninist, understanding history to built another future.

We welcome all non-authoritarian groups/individuals as comrades and we hope to work together and keep good relations.

Karen.

PS: but please, don't use the word fascist whenever there is a hint of aggressivity in the air. Do you mean our french comrades are fascists?
Sooner or later you will meet anarchist/red skinheads and you might be scared but put it in the right context of continental Europe. Come on, forgive the wee lad.

by james redmond - Socialist Alternative (personal capacity) Thu May 23, 2002 21:58

I didn't really take offence to your comments black cat, it just pissed me off that they were so far of the mark. As to your questions on wheter or not this tiny island needs another microscopic group, well diversity is surely welcome, it's what the anticapitalist movement prides itself on after all. The only problem is if sectarianism and rabid prejudice jumps in the way of any meaningful dialouge between revolutionaries on this island. You also seem to fundamentally fail to understand what Socialist Alternative is going about, we are no umbrella group, and we will be confined to UCD for a while, so we're looking at what we can acheive in the mileu there, we do want to pull people together who are alienated by the existing left, people that share a belief in the need for revolutionary organisation and the idea of socialism from below. We're just getting our shit together at the moment, so give it some time before you dismiss us as a leninst plot. The terms socialism and anarchism are not binary opposites. We seek to advance, not regress.

by Paul Kinsella - ATGWU (For the time being!)! Thu May 23, 2002 22:57 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087 - 9748511

This is very good! There's a great selection of links to various organisations. I was particularly pleased to see for the first time a link to the new Independent Workers Union (IWU). As a result I'm now in the process of joining the IWU. Well done!

by Komsomol Fri May 24, 2002 00:17 komsomol at swirve dot com

what we dont need is another split in the struggle against capitalism and imperialism, but i must say that its a damn good website! But i wish everyone in the Socialist/ anti - capitalist community would just come together! its just a dream i suppose...

by Andrew Fri May 24, 2002 13:37

Hi Komsomol

the problem with these abstract calls for unity is that they are often attempts to silence debate. In terms of coming together we have to ask 'come together for what'.

There are many marches, protests and campaigns where activists from different organisations and none come together. This is because we all agree around that particular issue.

This is not true though when it comes to the question of anti-capitalism. We can march together because we all oppose capitalism but we cannot form a single organisation because we have sharply different ideas of what must follow capitalism. The leninists want a strong centralised state where a single party orders around the working class in order. The anarchists insist that the capitalist state structure must be smashed and that nothing should replace it accept the free federation of communes/soviets/councils/syndicates These two programs stand opposed to each other, you fight for one or the other and people choose organisations according to whatever they think is the way to go. See the link for more info

by ph Fri May 24, 2002 16:58

No we don't andrew! christ a single party ordering everyone around!!!! have you ever spoken to anyone outside internet land!!!!

how can we unite with people that have pre set ideas that will never change!!!! (yes thats the anarchists)

by James Redmond - Socialist Alternative Fri May 24, 2002 18:21 antrophe at hotmail dot com

I was trying to update some parts of the Socialist Alternative site, adding a forum area and so on, and obviously as it's the firs time i've done a site, something was bound to go wrong, so the site is a little fucked at the mo, its still up but the graphics and so on aren't downloading, ill sort it by tomrrow nite, i hope...

by conor - sa Fri May 24, 2002 19:29 c_mc_gowan at hotmail dot com

fuck off belfast
fuck off entierly

what the fuck does belfast have to do with this??

im sick of being called an anarchist/marxist/lennist/member of the 4th international
why is left wing politics so obsessed with this labeling business.i can imagine it after the revolution ,all the old anarcho-lefties scratching their heads wondering "what label is meant to be on this black sugary fizzy drink-bring back the corporations NOW"
i like anarchist/socialist teaching,ive listened to what everyone has to say from the mormons to the stalinists-and its generally along the same lines.thats why i dont wantto see the sa become bogged down with labels.personally i believe in the right of the individual ,but with social support and order,society as help not interference.
i only read the first 4or5 comments because it got a bit "our organisation is like yours/fuckoff with free thought" after that.
im off to the library to get some books out on mao
cheeri-o

by anarcho Sat May 25, 2002 17:34

Sticking my 2p worth...

"No we don't andrew! christ a single party ordering everyone around!!!! have you ever spoken to anyone outside internet land!!!!"

And have you read Lenin or Trotsky? Both identified
"socialism" with Leninist Party rule, quickly
evolving (once in power) to party dictatorship. A
position Trotsky held until his death, incidentally.

I assume that we should ignore all these arguments
by leading Leninists? If so, where does that leave
Leninism if we reject what the founders of the
ideology argue?

"how can we unite with people that have pre set ideas that will never change!!!! (yes thats the anarchists)"

The only "pre-set" of ideas that anarchists have is
that we need to learn the lessons of history and
actually discover for ourselves what people actually
argued for. This means reading about the Russian
Revolution and finding out what, say, Lenin and
Trotsky actually argued for.

Now, it is possible many modern Leninists do not
know what Lenin and Trotsky argued for and did. If
so, that is their problem and they should read more. However, do not claim anarchists have not
done their homework on this matter!

Visit "An Anarchist FAQ" for anarchist analysis of
Leninism, if you doubt my claims.

by Chekov Sat May 25, 2002 20:46

The point where anarchists and Leninists immediately come into conflict in practice is in their orientation towards popular struggles and mass movements. Leninists see the revolution coming about as a result of their party being strong enough to grasp the reigns of power. Anarchists see the revolution coming about due to the self organisation of the working class into free federations without any central authority.

Therefore, before they intervene in a campaign, Leninists will ask themselves whether their action is likely to make their party stronger (in terms of membership, profile, positions of influence, etc...). Anarchists on the other hand tend to ask themselves "is our action likely to increase the self-confidence and ability to self-organise of the working class"? This difference in outlook leads to disagreement over the most minor of matters and indeed is the reason that anarchists and Leninists not only disagree on their overall strategy for revolution, but they also invariably disagree on what we should do here and now.

by red dub Mon May 27, 2002 16:51

The reason the site has such a libertatian slant is nothing to do with a re thinking of their politics, its cos Andrew Flood of the WSM designed it for the committee splitters.

But of course he had nothing to do with SWSS in UCD being ursurped. They did this all by their bad selves....

by - Mon May 27, 2002 17:01

Trotskyist would be a better description than Lenninist for groups such as SWP/Socialist Party etc.
Many groups call themselves Leninists, including Stalinists. Trotskyists are not Stalinists, by using the term Leninist in preference to Trotskyist the Anarchists are trying to label Trotskyists as Stalinists. Why can't you use the more correct terminology?

by ph Mon May 27, 2002 17:12

First of all on an answer to bossying people around, everyone who uses this site regularly ask themselves, honestly, who is it that pops on in the middle of all the arguments and tells people what they can and can't do? Who is it who comes in to "referee" more often or not. Is it an evil blood dripping "leader" from the dark forces of leninism. Or is it some arrogant anarchist that can't except others have a different point of view :)

Secondly heres what trotsky says about the role of a party or movement at the point of revolution. From the horses mouth. If you're interested and have time. All wrapped up in one chapter.

THE ART OF INSURRECTION:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1930-hrr/ch43.htm

As for the comrades in SA fair play to yes you prove Leninists aren't all robots as much as some would have us believe and whoever said andrew caused your autonomus move is obviously a sap.

by james redmond - socialist alternative Tue May 28, 2002 12:07 antrophe at hotmail dot com

"The reason the site has such a libertatian slant is nothing to do with a re thinking of their politics, its cos Andrew Flood of the WSM designed it for the committee splitters."

Yes that great stalking anarchist gaint that haunts the dreams of irish socialists namely andrew flood has contrived this whole thing in an effort to discredit the authoritarian left...

I've always known conspiracy theorists have a propensity to pop up on indymedia, but fuck this guy just takes the biscuit. If you read the above post by me, you'd have noticed that the site was fucked for a while because it's the first time I have done one, now its fixed again...would that not lead you to conclude that Andrew Flood had fuck all to do with the site?

Oh..hes a crafty one that andrew flood...sure what else do ya expect form those pesky anarchist secterians...sure it all goes back to Bakunin and the first international! Tsk! Tsk!!

For people like you red dub ive one thing to say grow the fuck up.

by Karen - Too many Wed Jun 05, 2002 19:20

Oh my!
This is far better than any anarchist lists in Ireland.
So, ok, our wee lads/lasses from UCD are moving toward anarchism but still call themselves leninists. Right. Maybe they should consider the word "communist" or "socialist" and adding something like "libertarian", no? But then, why don't they join the WSM?
Unless they are considering the Anarcho-Syndicalist option? ( for more: [email protected], I know, it's like selling a newspaper)

But sure, I don't see why anarchists are freaking out because other anarchists are concerned by this true disturbing mixture of leninism and anarchism...And why some of us'reaction is not acceptable here (Ireland) and completely natural in the rest of Europe? Some of us will be completely up to criticise anarcho-syndicalism ( calling it various bad things like reformist, empty from any politics and so on) or green anarchism ( being "hippies") but it is suddenly ok to be leninist? Here, that's does not sense.

For the "Fuck Belfast", well, this is a bit extreme, no? (or pretentious seeing the size of the city) Not that Belfast cares but I don't think it is fair to the folks over here like Giros, Green Action, the ASF, the BMC and the rest.

Keep up the argument!
karen

by karen - same big number Wed Jun 05, 2002 19:30

As far as I know, Belfast is still on the island of Ireland unless the lads blow it away tonight (yep, watch the news).
That's why it has to do with Belfast. And what? The main city in Ireland is Dublin and we shall listen to yous? Or maybe do you consider us being part of another "country"? But you probably be the very first to have some dodgy position on the North.
Go on boy/girl, what's your problem with Belfast?
And fuck off back!
But maybe me, being a non-irish person, I should simply shut the fuck up cause I can't understand. Is that it?

Karen.