SP Censor Indymedia?

by Joe Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:07

I hear the SP are picketing Waterstones for selling a hate book that advocates the poor eat their children next!

by pat c Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:12

Recently both Stephen Boyd and Michael O'Brien have found time to comment on Indy. Perhaps they would now give some more of their time to enlighten us as to whether Oisin was acting with the backing of the SP.

Do they really believe that a different set of rules apply to the SP? Should the SP be allowed to say whatever it wants about the rest of the left? But the rest of the left must bow low and speak softly when they are addressing the SP?

by Legal Eagle Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:14

From: FinghÌn
mailto:[email protected]

Completely unsubstantiated allegations of electoral fraud by the Socialist Party has been alleged on this thread
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=52025&start=0&sid=80568

This is of course utter rubbish. It libel and should be removed.

by pat c Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:24

From now on whenever the SP make an assertion and fail to produce evidence to back it up, perhaps the editors would exercise their discretion. We dont want people to be misled by ubsubstantiated rumours.

by Magneto Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:36

What would these people be like if they held any real power? Its not just a question of the SP always being right; you are not even allowed to openly disagree with them.

Are the SP going to be allowed to effectively decide which comments regarding the SP will be allowed to remain up on Indymedia?

by Hebe Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:49

Let them know what you thinkl about their actions:

[email protected] tel 6183038 (Dail)

Socialist Party tel 6772952
141 Thomas Street Dublin 8

by Eamonn Crudden Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:08

The headline to this article is factually incorrect. IMC edits/censors IMC - not the SP- and all deleted stuff is put and is openly available here: http://www.topica.com/lists/imc-ireland-hidden/read.

Why the stuff in question was censored: This is from the editorial list and to me expresses the reason the stuff was deleted best:

"If a statement, read in isolation, could be seen as a serious allegation against the SP, or any other group or person and is untrue it should be deleted. If someone is obviously taking the piss then it should be left up."

Not everyone is as Mono maniacal as certain of our SP and Anarcho contributors who have the time and intent to roam over the wires spreading their personal/political argument all over the site in a manner that nobody except themselves and the people that have to monitor the site can follow. The disputed stuff is often without any context for those who are not trawling and trolling.

They could show their good intent if they have any by taking up this challenge - getting on the editorial list and doing this (also from a post on editorial list)

"But there is a debate going on here and I wonder would the Socialist Party and those debating the points be willing to work on a more focussed and
complete version of this, very important, debate. Not so that someone can win but so that there is an accessible ongoing way of reading the points
that are being made."

Some of the ppl involved are lurking on the lists anyway - trying to drag IMC as a whole into this argument - why not tidy this shit up so that it does not overwhelm the site. It is a problem and here is something I wrote on another thread about all of this that I think sums up why it is a problem.

"Repetitive Bickering Here
by eampnn C5udeen Sat, Jun 14 2003, 3:56pm

Those content to take over this open space for the purposes of rolling constant and most and worst of all repetitive sectarian bickering to the exclusion of all else. Especially the anonymous ones who do so without ever contributing positively to the site.

I could pretend to be all of these heads at this stage from monitoring the spew - As I'm sure could most of the remaining readership. Paralysis obviously didn't go away with JiMMy J.

Vicious criticism - no problem - but seeding all the space with repetitions (tourettes style) of same in the hope of having a duplicate of the ;last slanging match. AAAHHH

Is it too much to ask ppl to make their point and move on?

It would be preferable at this stage to publish a 'Repetitive Bickering here' post one every 10 on the wire and put it up to these people to have the balls - after publishing their latest critique once in 'public' space - to confine themselves on future occasions to the latest 'RepBicHere' post - shit in their 'own' playground if they want to - and leave it to others to decide if and when they want to tramp around in the 'shit'. "

****************************************

Meanwhile I scratch my head and consider what the difference between the Black Bloc and SP is - oh yeah - the Black Bloc as we have been reminded so often is a tactic and not a group or organisation. So how do you libel/slander what is not a group or organisation but a tactic.

*******************************************

Eamonn (1 of IMC IRL) (NOT A POLICY POSITION FROM IMC)

by ec Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:22

by Durutti Mon, Jun 16 2003, 9:59am
by Durutti Mon, Jun 16 2003, 8:59am
by Durutti Mon, Jun 16 2003, 10:41am
by Durutti Mon, Jun 16 2003, 9:27am
by Durutti Mon, Jun 16 2003, 10:14am
by Durutti Mon, Jun 16 2003, 10:42am

by Chekov Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:22

Threatening to sue IMC when this type of comment appears is a terrible response. You must know well that anybody can post any comment to indymedia and that if the IMC is to be held responsible for the content of every comment, it would have to employ a legion of fact checkers and censors which, besides from the fact that it is not possible, would destroy all of the good points about indymedia.

The thing that lots of people seem to miss is that, in an open publishing environment, nobody believes every post. It is quite obvious that there are trolls, cranks, sectarians and maybe even cops active on the newswire. Any reader who has any type of acquaintance with the newswire will know that many of the comments are foolish in the extreme. However, happily, the vast majority of foolish or slanderous posts are pretty bloody transparent and will be seen through immediately. The open publishing model does away with the censor and instead trusts the readership to make value judgements based upon the content of the comments. In fact, I think tha the SP have come rather well out of the current round of bashing, not through anything they have done themselves, but merely by appearing saner than some of the hysterical, repetetive attacks on their party.

To sum up, there is no need to wield the big stick of the state against indymedia and that would really be counter productive. Have a little bit of faith in peoples' ability to spot trolls - they are often actually doing you a favour despite themselves.

by mick Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:43

Can this be true? the socialist party condemns the black block for being infiltrated by the police. Not the other way round!The black block , which is ,from what I can make out, a genuine, militant anti capitalist grouping , didn't ask to be infiltrated by the cops .If they are being infiltrated it is because the state sees them as a threat. It is the cops who should be condemned and not the the BB.
Now the SP are actually threatening to use the police against indymedia. Are Socialist Party members who use indymedia going to stand for this?

by pat c Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:44

You seemed to get the wrong idea about my position on the Black Block v SP.

I responded to you at

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=52105&start=40

Its the last comment (or was a short while ago)

by ec Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:54

You are part of the problem I described above - 'seeding all the space with repetitions (tourettes style) of same in the hope of having a duplicate of the ;last slanging match' - I saw your comment where it was - and I'll reply and argue with you if and when I feel like it there - not here - why are you following me around?

by pat c Mon Jun 16, 2003 13:08

You sound as if you are suffering from stress. You accused me of inciting violence, I pointed out to you that your comments were totaally untrue, (even libelous ;)). From the very start I have disagreed with Duruttis and the BBs threats of violence against the SP.

Now I would ask you to do the decent thing and withdraw your allegations about me.

How is it tourette-like to correct lies? If the SP stop rewriting history and stop making unwarranted accusations against the Black Block then I will stop responding to them.

by Durutti Mon Jun 16, 2003 13:20

by ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:59am
by Eamonn Crudden Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:08am
by ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:22am
by ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:54am
y ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:30am
by ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:31am
by ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 11:32am

by ec Mon Jun 16, 2003 13:30

And I think all shades of readers around here know it.Being a smartass does not change that. Over and out.

by tourettes r us Mon Jun 16, 2003 13:43

[Imc-ireland] Libelous comments and articles on IMC newswire
Daithi Mac Sithigh macsithd at tcd.ie
Sat Jun 14 02:29:55 PDT 2003

Hey Oisin,

this is my opinion - others will of course reply as they see fit. In terms of
political arguments the standard for articles is higher than comments - the
debate that tends to take place in the comments following an article is rarely
interrupted, as I would hazard a guess that the accuracy of user-contributed
comments is not always the best, and it would be unfeasible to monitor. If an
article is obviously infactual and it's drawn to our attention it's deleted;
but the peer review (of comments) helps to clarify disputed points, correct
minor errors etc.

In terms of libel, etc. that's obviously an issue that we do deal with, but
quite frankly it's not helped by Finghin sending email and comments on account
of satire (albeit not something that's going to rival Mony Python any time
soon). You know as well as I do that an allegation of SP members turning
babies into liquid is not going to be grounds for any kind of legal action!
Throwing around that sort of allegation doesn't help anyone. I get the
feeling sometimes that if we published Swift's Modest Proposal, I would open
my email to a list of complaints about racism, slurs, and horrible disgusting
depictions of murder! As for legal action, no doubt that problem will come
up, but hardly for the reasons you're citing. It's something I'm aware of but
not intimidated by.

But I don't want to belittle the serious point that you're making - I
personally feel that the sort of attacks you're talking about are cyclical;
one week it's all about Sinn Fein, then other parties - broken up by
allegations of IMC fascist censorship, of course. Bring dubious articles to
the list's attention, and don't 'feed the trolls'; no-one's going to cruxify
you if you don't answer, and the sort of harassment will be deleted (comments
on every article saying 'why haven't you answered', etc are not acceptable.
In any case the minority of users who treat the newswire like a bulletin board
for the bored are a right pain, but there is much achieved that's good, too.

Cheers,

Daithi

[Imc-ireland] Libelous Remarks
Daithi Mac Sithigh macsithd at tcd.ie
Sun Jun 15 00:20:57 PDT 2003

Oisin, a chara,

I think you should read my reply from yesterday, and lay off on the legal
threats. What are you trying to achieve by this? You know quite well that a
threat (e.g. the childish remarks by Durutti re the Black Bloc) has absolutely
nothing to do with libel whatsoever, not in the real world, the virtual world,
or any possible jurisdiction that I can even think of. I've already dealt
with the other comments you complain about. Shouldn't your legal knowledge be
put to better use than veiled threats against Indymedia?

Le meas,

Daithi

[Imc-ireland-editorial] libellous remarks, Oisin Kelly, impersonation, idiocy
R Isible p0litic0 at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 15 17:21:10 PDT 2003

--- contact_form at indymedia.ie wrote:
> From: Oisín Kelly
> mailto:oisinkelly at hotmail.com
>
> Editors,
>
> I wish to draw your attention to a comment on IMC
> Newswire that is libelous in my opinion. "Durutti"
> in a comment on the article "electronic voting" made
> accusations that the Socialist Party were involved
> in electoral fraud.

> I will say it again to the editors, these
> accusations are NOT satire, they are libelous
> comments that are published on a website that YOU
> are editors of.
>
> I think it would be a good idea if you remove ALL
> comments and articles that may put the IMC in risk
> of legal action.
>
> I have a copy of this communication on paper.
>
> Yours Sincerely,
>
> Oisín Kelly,
> 14-6-2003.

Do we (IMC) have any evidence that these posts were
written by the Oisin Kelly that we think it is? I
have to say that I take this amusing apparent
hissy-fit to be possibly the production of somebody
that wants the real Oisin Kelly to look like an ass.
I'll be keeping a copy of _this_ communication in case
it really is Oisin Kelly (UCD SP), it should prove to
be embarrassing in the near future if it is.

Meanwhile could someone that has a guaranteed bona
fide email address for Oisin Kelly contact him to
verify whether or not he really did issue this puerile
rant? I think he should be made aware that somebody
is trying to set him up in public.

Just my 2 cents,
R Isible.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

[Imc-ireland-editorial] A few things
Daithi Mac Sithigh macsithd at tcd.ie
Sun Jun 15 21:06:37 PDT 2003

As you will see from the hidden list I've done some newswire housekeeping.
Mainly crossposts. Some of the SP/not-the-SP nonsense is too deeply woven in
with the 'real news' and I can't really clean it up - there was a lot of
duplicate posting and links back and forward between articles (absolutely
incomprehensible for new readers or anyone outside the circle) that's too much
of a mess to do anything with.

I suggest we leave it and from tomorrow try and contain the spiralling
attacks; i.e. if there's an article on an unrelated matter and the cast of
characters falls through the wall and continues their fight where they don't
belong, we will delete. Free debate is welcome but it should not take over
the site and crowd out all other expression.

The last week has seen some fairly dire stuff on the wire - time to move on
and keep the site moving. Let's start with some consensus on the next feature
- June 21st stuff OK without objections?

Bills - this is something that really needs a response from the Irish wing of
Indymedia Ireland! Do we have any money at all, or is it just a case of the
right person sending the payment?

We're on the cusp of moving to a new site design that's going to make all our
work easier and vastly improve the usefulness of the site for all that use it.
Hopefully we are not going to let the wire disintegrate into a slanging match
in the meantime.

And finally - I am very much aware of libel issues, are are many of the
persons on this mailing list, and there have of course been posts in the past
that very much crossed the line, but if the Socialist Party want to sue
Indymedia (to seize our assets, perhaps? Good one) because a contributor wrote
that a SP member turns babies into liquid, I will take great pleasure in
watching them try. It will be the most amusing case in Irish legal history

[Imc-ireland-editorial] Libelous Comments
Ciaran Moore cjmoore at eircom.net
Mon Jun 16 01:23:45 PDT 2003

Hi,

I believe the newswire is being used to make a political point. I think the
probability that a statement could be believed should come into play here.
If a statement, read in isolation, could be seen as a serious allegation
against the SP, or any other group or person and is untrue it should be
deleted. If someone is obviously taking the piss then it should be left up.

I'd probably go half and half with current posts: though would completely
agree with Daithi on the difference between articles and comments. Untrue
articles degrade the headline list on the front page and should be more
frequently removed.

But there is a debate going on here and I wonder would the Socialist Party
and those debating the points be willing to work on a more focussed and
complete version of this, very important, debate. Not so that someone can
win but so that there is an accessible ongoing way of reading the points
that are being made. With this in place (under Oscailt) all mentions of
these subjects could see the post being moved to the tailend of this section
(sort of like Eamonn's RBC).

I would also be interested in seeing critiques of Indymedia from different
groups - how it should be run, what the guidelines are etc. Having that
discussion could make it easier to resolve conflicts over what is
'acceptable' on independent media.

C.

by Sharon Mon Jun 16, 2003 13:58

Do not be surprised of the sp threatening to going to the police against others on the left In Northern Ireland they actually do it openly. Peter hadden SP openly informed the police on Davy Carlin swp during the anti war protests. He pointed to davy looked at the police and said that he was responsible for bringing demonstrations onto the roads and illegally blocking them. The film has been circulated to those people who were not there and who did not believe it as even people there could hardly believe what they were seeing.

by legle eagle Mon Jun 16, 2003 13:59

woo-hoo...

by . Mon Jun 16, 2003 15:16

ittirud - norahs

by D supporter Mon Jun 16, 2003 15:53

Do you want a copy of the film then? As apart from the informing it has some enjoyable bits with peter running around trying to get a late thirty something organiser to get a YAW poster and sit amongst the mass of SAW who had occupied the roads outside city hall for the second day in a row, just to try and get a photo of a YAW poster held on the road. And the response on the organisers face which said are you kidding me was hilarious. Then peters face going first red then blue then actually foaming at the mouth before then pointing to Davy and with bulging eyes shouting and informing the riot squad looking on, who like the media did not know of him so must have thought he was just mad. But when davy then eventually just give a wry smile and a sympathetic nod of the head back at peter you would have thought peter was ready for a heart attack and had to be restrained by his comrades. The film has done the rounds around anti war activists for its serious side as well as a giggle but there is no point getting drawn into a slanging match, but only recently seen the film and had to tell somebody especially with the above sp behaviour

by suspicious Mon Jun 16, 2003 16:19

is that not what this wire is for?

by Bakunin the USSR Mon Jun 16, 2003 16:29

The SP are preparing to disband, according to a confidential document which fell from Joe Higgins' pocket after he was carried away by the Gardai at a recent anti-war protest outside the dail.

According to the confidential document the SP is to disband for the short term. The Vanguard is urging its members to join its rival, The Socialist Workers Party (SWP).

It is believed that once they are in the SWP they will try to take over the SWP in true trot style. The SP believe that once they have worked their way to the top they can dominate the party and then proceed to drop the word "workers" from the parties name, instantly creating hundreds of new members. The document states that they believe that the SWP membership will not resist the Trot invasion, as they have already been programmed not to question any of the partys ideologies.

by Gaz - independent libertarian socialist Mon Jun 16, 2003 16:38

the bitching among the SWP/SP/SA/labour continues to clogg up indymedia. so ive decided to create a forum so people of various shades of red (or black),from labour to the sparts, can discuss their agrievances...there might even be the occassional ideological discussion (doubt it).

I'd ask that you register your names instead of posting as a guest (so no one can be accused of posting under someone elses name)

The forums totally empty...so go nuts.

http://www.leftdiscussion.cjb.net/
sorry if theres pop-ups
if that links taking ages to load try http://left.board.dk3.com/ instead

by D supporter Mon Jun 16, 2003 17:18

As I said only recently seen the film as it was doing the rounds but do not have a copy. But if you really want a copy can you leave your E-Mail and I can pass it along to those who have it as I do not think they any longer come onto indymedia

by i Mon Jun 16, 2003 18:48

we are getting restless. and the evidence seems prepared....

by Gaz - independent libertarian socialist - - (cfe personal capcity) Mon Jun 16, 2003 20:27

[post and comments moved by R Isible. This is duplicated material Gaz and should not have been posted to the newswire by you. I've moved it and its associated comments here. Thanks.]

The Irish Left
by Gaz - independent libertarian socialist - (cfe personal capcity) Mon, Jun 16 2003, 2:02pm
[email protected]

the bitching moves on...

Ok, im seriously pissed off with the bitching among the SWP/SP/SA/labour thats been clogging up indymedia so ive decided to create a forum so people of various shades of red (or black),from labour to the sparts, can discuss their agrievances...there might even be the occassional ideological discussion (doubt it).

I'd ask that you register your names instead of posting as a guest (so no one can be accused of posting under someone elses name)

The forums totally empty...so go nuts.

http://www.leftdiscussion.cjb.net/
sorry if theres pop-ups
if that links taking ages to load try http://left.board.dk3.com/ instead

related link: www.leftdiscussion.cjb.net

add your comments
COMMENTS

About time!
by Belfaster Mon, Jun 16 2003, 2:14pm

Well done at least we can give it a try

Nice on G.
by ec Mon, Jun 16 2003, 2:39pm

Maybe a link on imc Front page would be good?

RE: link
by Gaz - independent libertarian socialist Mon, Jun 16 2003, 3:10pm

it'd be better to wait awhile and see if people are going to use it.

related link: www.leftdiscussion.cjb.net/

Well Done Gaz
by Anonymous Mon, Jun 16 2003, 5:01pm

i went there
by pat c Mon, Jun 16 2003, 5:13pm

and got this pop up

Litman Law
Near the Patent and Trademark Office
in Arlington, Virginia U.S.A.

PATENT AND TRADEMARK LEGAL REPRESENTATION
Serving businesses, innovators and lawyers

did you have to involve lawyers? they will hang around hoping to get business from Oisin and Finghin.

What A Mouthful
by Not Interested Any Longer Mon, Jun 16 2003, 5:26pm

Your conditions of use are a little non libertarean Gaz. Practically every comment and article ever published on Indymedia would be ruled out.

While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered above being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent the webmaster, administrator and moderators cannot be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

This forum system uses cookies to store information on your local computer. These cookies do not contain any of the information you have entered above, they serve only to improve your viewing pleasure. The email address is used only for confirming your registration details and password (and for sending new passwords should you forget your current one).

By clicking Register below you agree to be bound by these conditions.

lucky you, pat
by Daithi Mon, Jun 16 2003, 5:58pm

I didn't get an advertisement for lawyers; I got one of those obnoxious little bits of spyware-software that tries to download itself to your computer. In the best Paisleyite tradition I answered with a firm "No" and it disappeared ;-)

by Gaz - an independent libertarian socialist island in a sea of capitalism Mon Jun 16, 2003 21:57

They're not my conditions of use they're dk3.coms. i didn't even bother to read that legal crap you get when you try to join. Its basically meaningless.If people slag eachother the cops aren't gonna come knockin at your door with some angry guys from the SP (sorry!).

"The IP address of all posts is recorded"
I personally don't get a record of all the IP addresses, the company that developed the forum software might but is this really an issue? A lot of web sites record IP addresses, but i see why people would have a problem with it. Doesn't indymedia record IP adresses? I thought the american government tried to get some yankee indymedia to hand over the IP addresses of people who posted in the run up to the "BAttle Of Seatle" but failed. Does this version of indymedia record IP addresses?

"You agree that the webmaster.......have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit."

That means that i'd be in charge of editing/deleting posts. As a libertarian socialist im not gonna go round censoring everything.

"As a user you agree to any information you have entered above being stored in a database."

Yeah thats a bit of a pisser, but you're not gonna put your PPS,credit card (evil)numbers down to register to post on a website

by Gaz - independent libertarian socialist Mon Jun 16, 2003 22:04

the forum was an attempt to divert discussion about various aspects of socialism and the various parties ideologies away from indymedia and to maintain indymedia as a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth.

The forum was set up in about 5 minutes. If you've got a problem with the terms and conditions then DONT register - post as a guest.

RE: the pop ups
Yes they suck,yes i hate spyware. I didn't want to use a yahoo group because of their level of advertising. The dk3.coms terms might appear harsh to libertarians but its only words, special branch isn't gonna come after you.

If anyones got a better idea then go for it

by Daithi Mon Jun 16, 2003 22:20

I'll spare you (and everyone) my rant about advertising-supported site hosting services as I've unleashed it on unsuspecting good folks before. Suffice to say that the main open directory (http://www.dmoz.org) listed numerous ad-free services and privacy respecting services when I was compiling the previous rant - if I can dig out the link I will.

Rule no. 1, though - don't use CJB.net as a forwarding service. The address isn't any shorter than the 'real' address, and you end up with twice the level of pop-ups and pop-unders. Furthermore it has a track record of linking to the likes of Gator that, if your security settings aren't configured appropriately, will automatically download and install, and then monitor and submit logs of your Web use, supply ads, interfere with content on other Web pages, etc. CJB might be the most popular but it's also one of the most invasive.

Indymedia does not record the IP addresses of posts - and we do not require anyone to log in so it's not possible (in general, and to the best of my knowledge) to track who posted an article or comment. Certainly all we get in stats is percentage breakdowns (e.g. there were 10000 hits from the IP address 123.1.123.1) which are not of much value.

It's totally up to Gaz what the T&Cs and the policy of the discussion board is - it's nothing to do with Indymedia (and rightly so) so what works here may not work there.

by Gaz - independent libertarian socialists Mon Jun 16, 2003 22:26

"Indymedia does not record the IP addresses of posts"

the following is taken from http://seattle.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3962

"The IMC did not comply with the order, which would have involved handing over the individual internet protocol (IP) addresses of over 1.25 million journalists, readers and technical volunteers who accessed the IMC website on April 20 and 21"

About the T&Cs and the policy of the discussion board, for the record, i don't want them there, i hate spyware and i hate pop-ups. I'll work on an alternative if it'll make people more willing to use it.

by Daithi Mon Jun 16, 2003 22:36

Sorry. Indymedia Ireland. Seattle is a different setup in that they maintain their own server etc. They made an error in keeping them in the first place, IMHO. Every Indymedia site is responsible for making their own hosting arrangements, choosing site software (at present, more and more sites are using a unique design) and setting their own policies re: dealing with that sort of legal request.

by Daithi Mon Jun 16, 2003 22:49

Found my original post, which was in the context of mailing lists but it could still be a starting point. (the object of my scorn had set up a Yahoo mailing list...). E.g. from a very quick look at the directory, the list at Dmoz (http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Message_Boards/) contains over a hundred message board services - the listings usually state what the ad conditions are, and in the PHP and ASP category, it even lets you know whether it's open source software and which type of open source licence (very very important our new site design will be). You can generally assume that something with open source copyright ('copyleft', as sometimes termed) is not going to collect your info etc etc. In the main list, on the page I linked to above, there are a few services that specifically promise 'free speech', no ads, etc.

"Right so
by Daithi Wed, Jun 4 2003, 2:35pm

Well if you don't want the hassle of setting up your own list, the Topica service (www.topica.com) is probably good - the emails contain just a plug for Topica itself in text-only form, you don't need to join or login (except the list owner). Downside is that it goes down from time to time. The L-soft (listserv) service is a for-profit company, but the slimmed down version for non-profit lists doesn't carry any advertising. I'm guessing that you (like me) don't have the knowledge or computer access to manage your own list or write scripts etc. so that might do in the meantime. If you have time, there are other services, some for-profit and some not-for-profit, even some that are open source or free software (code, not price)...there are lists at

http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Internet/Servers/Mail/List_Management/ (DIY - a bit more work required)

and

http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Mailing_Lists/Hosting_Companies/ (packages, most of which have a freebie option).

And I should add that ny snide remark was for all the groups that have to pick Yahoo...I'm realistic enough to know that you can't cut yourself off from the world (where do the computers come from anyway?) but most people just use Yahoo because of its brand presence - even if an ad-supported service has to be used, and often it does, there are other options that are as easy and still no cost.

Sort of like picking a non-union company or accommodation because it's well known, over a unionised one that offers the same service and price. Ideally of course there wouldn't be any profit-making corporation providing the service, but it's good to choose the bad over the worse."

by time for editorial change to front page Mon Jun 16, 2003 23:04

Total newswire is NOT on the front page.

Best articles get put up on front page. Editors decide which goes up, based on merit. Better articles get prominent placing. Complete newswire is accessible too, just less attention paid to it.

UPshot: Crap like this does not provoke slew of responses.

People contribute better articles if they know they'll get pushed onto front page.

Nonsense accusations of censorship can be brushed aside as all articles are on the newswire, just not as prominent.

Sick of reading shite about the SWP/SP/BB on the front page.

by a dave Tue Jun 17, 2003 01:04

YOU'RE (almost) ALL A BUNCH OF CHILDREN!!

Stop worrying about your meaningless reputations, the vast majority of you will be completely ignored by the history books. Do what's right for the sake of it being right!

by Brian Cahill Tue Jun 17, 2003 03:20

Just in case anyone has been mislead by this thread: The Socialist Party is not threatening to take a libel case against anyone let alone Indymedia.

by pat c Tue Jun 17, 2003 10:04

Brian

If the SP are not going to take a case, why did Oisin and Finghin make threats about taking legal cases?

I can well understand that the SP might wish to disown O & F at this stage, but if anyone is 'misled' it is due to the messages sent to the Editorial List by SP members Oisin and Finghin.

by Ray Tue Jun 17, 2003 13:13

Looks like I picked the wrong time to take a long weekend...

by pat c Tue Jun 17, 2003 13:41

But you could still ask the SP to clarify why Michael O'Brien thought the Cops were restrained at Evian but Amnesty thought otherwise.

Or, when is a threat of legal action not a threat of legal action? When Brian Cahill puts a spin on it!

by The Judaean People's front. Tue Jun 17, 2003 17:45

It's the people's front of Judaea!

Dirty nasty splitters!

by Magneto Wed Jun 18, 2003 09:53

They have their legal advisers with them, Iscariot & Iscariot.

by nuts - you're all Thu Jun 19, 2003 18:48

this is an outsiders view but sometimes it helps. Ireland has the smallest and weakest left in europe. joe higgins must be the first revolutionary elected sincw who knows when, what happens the whole "left" attacks him. You're all crazy if you were serious you should be supporting him.

by Joe Fri Jun 20, 2003 17:36

Please at least be accurate, many of us quite liked Joe until his cowardly attack of March 1st. U start calling people 'virtual warriors' at the very moment they are getting chucked in the back of vans by the gardai and its quite likely that this will be remembered and held against you for some time to come. He has only himself to blame (and perhaps the bad advice of other SP members).

by pasionaria Tue Sep 23, 2003 04:50

Im new to this site,,
and just reading over some forums ,, SP ,, i presume thats the socialist party, are always either bitching or arguing with other sides of the left, this pathetic obsession seems to have blinded you away from the real reasons why this world is so fucked up...