N Ireland Water Charges campaign

by civil servant vultures Tue Jun 03, 2003 22:52

NI Government departments have a nest egg of £400 million still unspent, from last year. Yet they have the cheek to ask us to fork out and pay water charges. Maybe they want to save the £400 million, pocket this public money for themselves and spend it on luxuries for themselves. They conveniently forgot to tell us, that one third of our rates goes into funding the water service already.

by NI Assembly Wed Jun 04, 2003 00:45

All political partys in the Assembly accept the introduction of water charges.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed Jun 04, 2003 13:45 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

This Ard Fhéis states its opposition to any attempt to introduce water charges in local authorities; mandates all Sinn Féin elected representatives to vote against the imposition of another double tax and calls on the party to organise with other progressive elements in society to oppose any attempt to bring in water charges.

by SF watcher Wed Jun 04, 2003 15:08

Will SF use their mass support in the North to call for and build mass non payment? This is the key question.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed Jun 04, 2003 15:41 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

While I have to admit the question does not keep me lieing awake at night sweating in fevered anticipation and fretfulness of the answer, it is an important one and deserves an answer.

Short answer, I don't know. I'm a Dublin Sinn Féin member, not Belfast and beyond the fact that I know our comrades up there are opposed to the imposition of charges, I don't know what method they intend to use to oppose it. I would suggest, if you are serious about getting an answer, that you contact them.

by SF watcher Wed Jun 04, 2003 18:41

You say you are a Dublin SF member and not a northern SF member, I always thought SF prided themselves on being an all Ireland party?

If SF do not call for a BUILD mass non payment against water tax they are no different to the FG and LP in the south who 'oppose' bin tax. Unless SF build mass non payment they are simply using the issue to gain some cheap publicity and a radical image. This is the case in the south on Bin Tax.

by Irony is dead Wed Jun 04, 2003 19:20

This is not a sophisticated way of opposing the charges. Calling for a mass non-payment and then demanding everyone else follows allegiance to the call - even when the campain is in its infancy is silly.

by Tom Shelley Wed Jun 04, 2003 22:07

First, "Irony Is Dead" makes a great point. You don't start a campaign with one of the most extreme tactics available to you. You also don't call for using it without first organizing a coalition and consulting with your allies (in this case, the unions and community groups both nationalist and loyalist). After forming some kind of coalition, you start with the basics- public meetings, pickets, rallies, marches, getting resolutions passed in District Councils, then escalate things to mass non-payment.

Tom

by Dont Pay the charge Wed Jun 04, 2003 23:26

At the recent public consultation meeting in belfast the civil servants sent to put the view of the government made clear that none of the political parties in the Assembly (including SF)had opposed plans for the water services.
Quite right to say that a broad campaign has to be developed with all tactics used but from the start non payment has to be on the agenda. This will send a clear message to political parties that the issue will not go away and to private sector fat cats that there will be no money in it for them.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jun 05, 2003 09:56 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

As I said, I'm a Dublin Sinn Féin member. This means I don't know the ins and outs of the party's doings in Cork, or Derry, or Listowel for that matter. I don't hassle SP members in Dublin about what the the SP in Queens did or didn't do about Pat Finuance's bursary because I doubt your average SP member down here knows much about it. Being a member of SF doesn't mean a knowledge about every single issue facing every single cumann in every single part of every single county of Ireland.

by SF watcher Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:49

Justin you are talking rubbish. I take your point that you are not accountable to what inividual members get up to and can't be expected to know everything that goes on in the party.

But issues like the bin tax and water tax are extreemly important and should be national policy of SF. Surely if SF is an all Ireland party this should concern you, or is it the case that you are not an all Ireland party and have different policies in different constituencies. This seems to be the case recently I remember in Fermanagh you supported the Hayes report while in Tyrone you opposed it. In Dublin you 'oppose' (although you don't build non payment) bin tax while in Sligo you fully supported a €500 tax.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jun 05, 2003 13:27 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

This is going to be one of those days isn't it? Where you continually misinterpret things I say, I get more and more pissed off and it ends with me finding some-one in person to scream it, and possibly kick.

Issues like the Bin Tax and Water Charges are extremely important, and as I HAVE ALREADY STATED above the Ard Fhéis passed a motion on Water Charges which you are free to read because I posted it on this thread. We have a national policy on the subject.

To take the Bin Tax issue now even though it is at the end of your piece, Sinn Féin policy a couple of years ago was 'Sinn Féin representatives are mandated to vote against the introduction of Bin Charges.' This provided no guidance as to what the party should do in a situation where Bin Charges existed and operated prior to their election. For example, there are no Kildare SF councillors and my family has been paying the Charge since '97. No-one ever objected.

In Sligo, they voted for the Charges one year, but not at 500 Euros. They did so on the basis that the Charges pre-existed, were generally accepted by local people and and with a guarantee they would not be increased. This guarantee was broken and since then the party has opposed the Charges at every opportunity and also opposed the privatisation of the waste collection service.

As for our policy on non-payment, Sinn Féin leaves that up to individuals. Some people are scared into paying and we are not going to condemn them for doing so. Opposition to the Bin Tax does not mean signing up to building mass non-payment. One can oppose something even if they oppose it in a way not approved by the various Trot Internationals. Our record in opposition to the Charges on Dublin City Council is second to none and we played a key role in many local bin tax campaigns. If asked about non-payment, and I have been, I explain the situation, tell them I'm not paying it myself, and leave it up to them to decide.

As for the Hayes Report, if memory serves local SF representatives represented the wishes of their constituents.

by Irony is dead Thu Jun 05, 2003 16:17

You still don't get it. Charges are not due to at least 2006. Before then in the run up to its introduction all sorts of battle places will appear. Eg The proposals have to be OK'd by local Ministers, job losses after restructuring in the water/sewage sector could take place, installation of meters, etc. In other words all sorts of battles are on the cards before the charges are brought in - maybe industrial conflict could be encouraged.
Simply to demand 'don't pay the charges' is to project the anti-poll tax campaign on to this one. But this has its differences. Those up top have learnt - so must we.

by Long battle Thu Jun 05, 2003 20:51

it is of course right to say that the attack on the water service is more than a battle over double charging there are the issues of job losses and attempts to move the service from the public sector. Each issue must be fiught with a number of tactics, strike action, demos, lobbys but the under pinning method to defend the service must be a non payment campaign this is what will scare of the fat cats if we dont pay they cant make a profit. Clearly the cahrges are some way off but all the evidence from the bin tax and poll tax campaigns is that strong community based campaigns must be up and running to fight back effectivly so there is no problem in starting the campaign now and getting as many people as possible signed up to the idea. Remember in the north unlike the south every main stream party, SDLP, SF, DUP, UUP and Allince appear to have already given the attack on the service their stamp of approval so a campaign will have to be built without their support.

by Irony is dead Thu Jun 05, 2003 23:07

Repeating that the campaign must be one of 'Don't pay the water charges' no matter what is happening on the ground is silly. Come on we know New Labour wants a privatised utility where we are all paying charges with our little meters. However don't underestimate them. That is not what they are proposing. They are putting forward a number of options in the short term - including state ownership with 'managerial expertise' from the private sector. Yes we know where they are all heading - eventually. We must be able to counteract them every step of the way through a number of tactics especially strike action if it could be encouraged. A strong point is that the union movement is starting to put forward arguments opposing privatisation. Lets hold them to it - an effective campaign using industrial action.
Remember - there are positive lessons from the poll tax and negative ones. The positive being that mass opposition on the streets forced them to back down. The negative being that they replaced it with a high council tax (double our rates) and then brought in water charges in England and Wales with little resistance.
In conclusion: the ruling class learn from defeats (hence the pretence of choice & consultation).

by SPySPotter Sun Jun 08, 2003 17:23

Instead of calling for direct action, the SP, yet again go along with the softly softly iCTU line and distribute petitions.

by a Sun Jun 08, 2003 21:00

SPySPotter=liar,fool or cop?

by Lexmark Sun Jun 08, 2003 23:52

Calling for non-payment of the water charges is direct action. And it will be a form of direct action which will be a lot more effective than playing patty-cake with the Gardai at Shannon as you feebly attempt to break down a fence but didn't have the balls to follow through.
Virtual warriors like yourself think that a few hundred at Shannon pretending to take on the state is more important that organising hundreds of thousands of people to refuse to pay a tax. Sums you lot up really.

by SPySPotter - SMERSH Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:12

Direct Action means more than just not paying, it means stopping discoinnections, it means dumping refuse at City Hall.

You are just pathetic in your attacks on people who were arrested at Shannon. People who go face to face with cops are not virtual warriors, 10 of us were arrested, by your friendly workers in uniform.

Lord Haugh Haugh (Domnic Haugh SP) has consistently defended the Airport Police. He has the neck to call himself a socialist.

At Evian, the SP again condemned direct action. Its always the same going back as far as the poll tax riots with Tommy "the tout" Sheridan threatening to name names of those who had defended themselves from police attack.

Even during the anti war demos in the north, Peter Hadden screamed out the names of SWP members in front of the cops.

by SPySPotter you little muppet - worker Tue Jun 10, 2003 17:48

So spyspotter how old are you? i hope 16 or under then you'll grow out of you ridiculas ideas. So mass non payment doesn't work, silly little stunts are better. If tens of thousands of people refuse to pay what will the cops do arrest all of them? Its like a general strike versues a bomb. You can throw as many bricks through the windows of council offices, till you quit and start working for some bank or other, and tell all your friends you were a crazy youth. But of course it won't change a thing. But then its all a game to you isn't it? Of course a general strike or mass action is just the plebs to you isn't it. Elitist trendy fool. Fuck off and go back to your middle class subarb.

by Durutti Fri Jun 13, 2003 14:54

SP are part of Sell Out leadership in fire fighter strike.

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