Palestinian PM confronts accusations of holocaust denial

by David C. Thu May 29, 2003 18:01

“The links between Nazism and Zionism” – now there’s a relevant thesis topic!!

Notice how zionists invariably attempt to keep this topic radioactive and unmentionable, despite the clear similarities between the situations of european Jews in the 30s and 40s and Palestinians today (victims of lebensraum, collective punishment, property confiscation, ‘population transfer’, race-based rights, etc. etc.). One can only hope that the zionists don’t follow their program for the Palestinians to its logical conclusion…

Avi accused me in another thread of having “no respect for Jewish culture or sensitivities” because I obliquely pointed out this similarity through my use of the word “Lebensraum” to describe Israel’s settlement policy. I think that he is incorrect. I have considerable respect for Jewish culture and sensitivities – but I abhor the culture and sensitivities of the zionists and nazis.

The zionists perpetrate a crime against Jews as much as they perpetrate a crime against Palestinians, because they forcibly equate one with the other. They seek to force guilt on all Jews, as the nazis forced guilt on all Germans. But there are many, many heroic Jews in Israel, the U.S. and elsewhere who are valiantly resisting this theft of their identity by zealots. They deserve our heartfelt appreciation…

BTW – how does speculation about whether the holocaust killed 1 or 6 or 12 million Jews constitute ‘holocaust denial’? Are the Zionists already seeking to spin Mahmoud Abbas into a dangerous nut, as they have so successfully done with Arafat? (aided, I must admit, by Arafat!). Savior to terrorist in a week!

by Caspian Fri May 30, 2003 01:19

Nice one, David. Why should there be laws to ban "Holicaust" denial? If I choose not to believe something surely that is my right! What if I denied world war two ever happened? What if I denied twenty million Russians died? What if I denied the Armenian genocide or the Ruandan genocide ever happened? So what? Why should the Jews hijack all the suffering in the world? Mind you only they have the means to keep it at the forefront of everybodies consciousness day after day, year after year. The word holicaust never used to mean anything until the seventies.
The worlds sympathy for "plucky little Israel" has evaporated. They are no different from the Nazis.

by David C Fri May 30, 2003 01:40

Freedom of speech is an absolute, however we should also never forget ot take lightly what happened in any holocaust - whether the Jewish, Cambodian, Armenian, Rawandan, Russian, American Indian, etc etc.

My God. There have been so many.

by Fergal OB Fri May 30, 2003 10:52

Caspian, the neo-nazi, says that world sympathy for 'plucky little israel' has evaporated. Not mine it hasn't. the Israeli people are surrounded by Arab nations who want to wipe the Jews off the map (and have tried in the past to do it!)Jews have never been safe anywhere in the world, everyone has had a go at them, now they have their own little piece of the earth to call their own and they've armed themselves to the teeth to protect themselves. Well fair play to them. If Ireland were surrounded by nations that wanted to wipe us off the map we would do the same.
For all the stuff we had to put up with down through history at least we never had to try and deal with the phenomenon of the suicide bomber. How any socialist can side with those crazy lunatics is beyond me.
The IDF have committed war crimes, so have the palestinians, how about a bit of perspective? And to say the Holocaust meant nothing till the 70's? Maybe not to you Caspian, but it did to the Jews, the homosexuals, the romanys, the trade unionists, the communists and even the dreaded Social Democrats.
Catch yourself on Caspian.

by Jim Monaghan Fri May 30, 2003 11:53

Ari and his zionists friends are focussing on the wrong target here. Last I remember it was German fascists who were responsible. That some oppressed Palestinians swallow this stuff because of their justifiable rage at the seizure of their land and the expulsion of their peopele from their ancestral land does not justify Isreali oppression.Fundamentalism and denails of this play into the hands of Ari and his friends.
If there is a lesson to be drawn at all it is "The enemny of your enemny is not necessarily your friend". This applies to all oppressed people. I hope that no oppressed people in the area allow themselves to be manipulated by the USA and the Zionists because of oppression.

by kokomero Fri May 30, 2003 12:25

Fergal your assertion that the Israeli people are surrounded by Arab nations who want to wipe the Jews off the map is no longer true. The only people in the middle east who have real fears of ethnic cleansing and genocide are the Palestinians.

Perhaps you have forgotten that they have signed accords of one type or another with Egypt and Jordan, and the others such as Saudi Arabia are waiting to do likewise once a viable Palestinian state, not a collection of walled concentration camps, is on the table.

The problem with the little piece of the earth they call their own is that they stole it by ethnically cleansing it of its previous owners the Palestinians in 1948. What's worse they are not prepared either to compensate the Palestinians or to allow them to return.

The last I remember Ireland did not engage in this type of behaviour and hence it is unsurprising that we do not share the Israelis problem or mindset and do not need a massive standing army and WMD to defend our ill-gotten gains.

As for your ideas on suicide bombers, as bad as the British ever were, they never behaved like nazis to republicans in the north, they never flew into West Belfast with helicopter gunships, F16s and tanks to level the place even when the 2 soldiers were lynched in West Belfast (remember what the Israelis did after the same thing happened in the west bank?).

It is hardly surprising that the Palestinians are so desperate and isolated without any support from the international community apart from a few hollow UN resolutions nobody will support, that they are prepared to give everything including their own lives for liberation.

How the Israelis expect to treat people in this manner as well as intern and torture or assassinate them and not expect them to attack them by whatever means is beyond me.

by Salah Fri May 30, 2003 12:35

Although I think it is important to defend your word against people's deliberate mis-interpretation, this sort of debate is designed to distract from the true focus and reason for discussion:

THE EXPULSION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE FROM THEIR LAND

THE CONTINUED OCCUPATION AND OPPRESSION OF PALESTIANS

THE EVENTUAL ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS FROM THE WEST BANK AND GAZA

THE CREATION OF A PURE JEWISH STATE IN GREATER (ZIONIST) ISREAL

THE REASONS FOR PALESTINIAN'S STRUGGLE?

by avi H Fri May 30, 2003 23:51

Except for Fergal. Good for you, Fergal. You are a shining light, Sir.

by David C. Sat May 31, 2003 01:00

I can't speak for the other posters, but I don't think that I am either hypocritical or an anti-Semite. If you could please point out any specific acts of hypocrisy that I have committed I would appreciate it. I despise hypocrisy and will sincerely seek to correct it if I am guilty of it! As far as anti-semitism goes, perhaps you may be confusing the term with anti-zionism? Of course the error *must* be a confusion, because deliberately equating anti-semitism and anti-zionism would itself be an act of anti-Semitism...

by kokomero Sat May 31, 2003 07:50

is your own Avi. You are the perennenial excuser for Zionazi repression, torture, ethnic cleansing and murder. In fact you have admitted to being a murder yourself, so don't you dare lecture us! As they say people in glass houses .....

by keith Mon Jun 02, 2003 03:29

The word Palestinian refering to Arabs who live in Judia Samaria and Gaza was not used until November 1970.

There has never been a nation known as Palestinians since November 1970.

The total Arab population in both Jordan, Southern Syria and today's modern Israel was 120,000 in 1850 of which the most were non land owning nomads. Ancient Palestinians is pure fantasy and propegated by Arafat and his bunch of cut throats. According to Arafat Israel poisoned the water, sent prositates with Aids to destroy the Palestinan people. Are you believe all this shit.

There has never been any independent Arab or Jewish states in any part of the Middle East till the 20th Century./ The only independent country that can trace its routes back in ancient history is the Jewish State. The Arab and muslim traditions are only about 1400 years old while Judiasm is 3500 years old so if it is ancient that has the rights to Israel and the West Bank (JUDEA and Samaria). The West bank was invented by the New York times in 1967. Prior to that time it was illegally occupied and annexed by Jordan, when no Arab requested independence from Jordan.

The anti jews or anti zionist like to call themselves they are the same thing because a jew who is not a zionist is not a true jew because the redemption and return to the land of Israel which God promised to Abraham is part and parcel of their faith. Anti Zionist is Anti Jewish.

Jews who beieve in this Palestinian independence nonsense are also anti Jewish and are no better the stupid people who swallow the crap that is written on this web site about IDF atrocities and never once mention the suicide cultists who blow themselves up out of desperation. Please spare me this drivel about desperation. I suppose the two middle class muslims from London who blew themselves up two weeks ago were desperate and hopless.

Killing jews by being a martyr is a holy act according to the real fascists like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbillah, The Al Asqa Martyrs Brigade, The Tanzim, Force 17, Fattah, the list could get longer.

Could one of you idiots please explain what compensation the Jews should receive for the nearly million Jews who fled Arab countries with only the shirt on their backs between 1948-51 and were integrated into Israel because they had no where else to go. Maybe a plain old population swap is the answer or are the Arabs planing a big hand out to the Jews who lost all their homes and other property which was confiscated.

The Arabs have kept these poor Arabs in refuggee camps so you suckers can cringe over these Nazi Zionists. You are so pathetic in your Jew hatred and swallow all the propaganda that these dictators can muster.

by kokomero Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:14

As can be seen the majority in historical times has always been Arab/muslim until the Zionist pogroms and ethnic cleansing of 1948.

History of Censuses in Palestine
--------------------------------

As for the modern history of Palestine especially during the Ottoman ruling period, the population of Palestine decreased and was estimated to 200,000 persons. The decline was a result of deaths, wars and immigration, of Christians particularly, to Latin America and other parts of the World.

In 1917, during the British mandate, the estimates of population in Palestine were (642,850) person, distributed as (515,000) Muslim, (62,550) Christian, and (65,300) Jews.

The first census carried out in Palestine was in October 1922 by the British mandatory. The Total Palestinian population at that time was (752,048), with an increase of about (109,198) persons comparatively to the estimated number of population in 1917.

In November 1931, the second population census was implemented by the British mandatory. This census was more comprehensive and its results were more general and accurate. The total population in Palestine was (1,033,314) person distributed as (759,700) Muslim, (88,907) Christian, (174,606) Jews and (10,101) of other ethnic groups.

Afterwards, many attempts during the British Mandatory were done to estimate the Palestinian population until 1945. For instance, a demographic survey was implemented at the end of 1944, which showed that the total population was (1,739,624) person distributed as (1,061,277) Muslim, (135,547) Christian, (528,702) Jews, and (14,098) of other ethnic groups.

The Hashemite kingdom of Jordan conducted a housing census in 1952, which covered the West Bank. The estimate of total population was (667,000)

Later, in 1961 the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan implemented population census in the West Bank only, which mounted to about (805,450) person.

After the Israeli occupation in 1967, the military regime of Israel executed a census in September of that year, which covered the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The number of residents in the West Bank, at that time, was (598,637) person, while it was (356,261) person in the Gaza Strip. It is worth mentioning here that about (400,000) Palestinian were displaced out of their lands in that specific period.

In 1995, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics conducted a demographic survey in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The achievements of the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics were enthroned by conducting the first Palestinian census upon his Excellency, Mr. President Yaser Arafat decree on 5/6/1997 in a historical decision to carry out the census. The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics is proudly honored to be entrusted of the responsibility of conducting the first Palestinian Population, Housing and Establishment Census – 1997.

References:

1. The Institute for Palestinian Studies, A survey of Palestinian, Washington, D.C. 1991
volume I.
#
Saleh, Hasan, Population of Palestinian (In Arabic) Demography and Geography, Jordan University, 1985.