USI 'Cannot be responsible for the actions of students'

by Barry Fri May 23, 2003 13:52

Students are on the march now - small group - about 150, leaving Trinity probably towards Dail. Totally spontaneous - no warning given and many other students not even aware. Can be seen now on Corpo cameras on Dublin Corpo website.

by ??? Fri May 23, 2003 14:52

All the cameras are pointing away from that general direction i.e. Trinity, and there´s none near the Dáil.

by ??? Fri May 23, 2003 15:00

Apologies scap previous statement.

by USI watcher Fri May 23, 2003 15:08

Is this another way of Jordan and the USI leadership saying to groups like the CFE that if the state clamps down that they will not support them?

by Huh! Fri May 23, 2003 15:12

They will do anything to drag USI down so that they might be able to rule over the rubble.

by David Rynne Fri May 23, 2003 15:15

But that would be a negative way of looking at things. I think that while it's not the best thing that could have happened, it could have been worse. We all know that "representative" organisations will always try to maintain control even if that means they'll be in charge of a failing struggle rather than being merely participants of a progressive movement by the people for the people.
The USI could have called on students to take action but they did the next best thing, they didn't condemn students who decide to do so.
I don't think divisive arguement does anybody any good so as far as possible the CFE and USI (who both have the same end goals) should at the very least make conscious efforts not to undermine each other.

by Andrew Fri May 23, 2003 15:21

Whether or not 'USI watcher' is a SP member they are right to be warn about what this statement means. It does indeed seem to be yet another example of the tradition of the irish left/unions of claiming to be against something but ruling themselves out from the actions needed to stop it.

Any campaign of direct action against fees is liable to result in prosecutions and so legal fees, fines etc. USI leadership are obviously trying to make sure that USI feels under no obligation to help out in that situation.

The solution is to go to USI council and get a motion put through committing USI to defend any students victimised for protesting against the fees. Not sure how easy this would be to do nowadays. Over a decade back although only the SU presidents had votes at council (which means that at least 2 votes should be there to start with) any student could attend and speak.

[Council used to meet monthly whereas the annual congress was around Easter, obviously too late for this year].

by Huh! Fri May 23, 2003 15:26

"The USI could have called on students to take action but they did the next best thing, they didn't condemn students who decide to do so."

Unlike the SP in IAWM. Who called those who took DA, Virtual warriors. Remember the SP also supported the Airport Police against activists and did their best to sabotage DA by spreading scare stories.

If it suits the intertests of the SP leadership then they will do the exact same in this campaign. You will be told that you are undermining the (non existent)possibility of Civil Servants striking by occupying Government Buildings. (Remember, the SP are big noises in the Civil service Unions.)

If Dail Ushers or Government Porters assault students, the SP will take the 'workers' side. They will maybe claim it was Gardai disguised as Porters!

by OK - SP Fri May 23, 2003 15:38

The USI statement can be viewed in 2 ways. On one hand it could be that the USI are covering their arses legally- ie it's only for legal purposes. Secondly it could be seen as the USI officers distancing themselves from the tactics necessary to beat the government, ie it is a deliberate attempt to remove themselves from students.

I think that the USI should be pushed to support DA tactics against the government and to support any students from any clamp down by the state.

If the USI are unwilling to do the most basic task of representing students then student activists should not be afraid of looking in to an alternative national students union that will fight for our interests and will be democratic.

As for all the crap, lies, slurs and mistruths about the SP on this thread. All I have to say is that you people should grow up and actually base criticisms on fact- not just lies.

by Huh! Fri May 23, 2003 15:49

Everything I said about IAWM is true. Given your behaviour there, it is fair to guess at your future actions. One thing is for sure, the SPs line in the campaign will be decided by the SP National Ctte.

If they order you to do something, you will obey.

by David Rynne Fri May 23, 2003 16:04

The SP have almost nothing to do with the USI or the CFE or any other campaignes agaist the introduction of fees.

It achieves absolutely nothing to insult a party in a corrosive general non specific way. If you don't like a party, please keep it to yourself until you can come up with something constructive to say.

by OK - SP Fri May 23, 2003 16:04

I refer you to my last posting:

"As for all the crap, lies, slurs and mistruths about the SP on this thread. All I have to say is that you people should grow up and actually base criticisms on fact- not just lies."

by David Rynne Fri May 23, 2003 16:07

Newstalk 106 have just played an extract of an interview with colm jordan.

He essentially said that the USI urges all actions to remain within the law and that they do not support any illegal actions.
Damn
So much for not undermining the campaign.

I suppose it was a lot to hope for.

by Huh! Fri May 23, 2003 16:08

Which of my comments about IAWM were untrue?

David, OK and the SP will fuck up these campaigns if they can see it someway advancing the interest of The Party.

by OK - SP Fri May 23, 2003 16:09

David Rynne stated: "The SP have almost nothing to do with the USI or the CFE or any other campaignes agaist the introduction of fees."

Again more lies on this thread.

The SP played, and are still playing, a central role in the CFE. This is a fact.

Who was it that did the posters, did the lectures addresses? campaigned in the SU council and Exec elections for CFE? who was it that built for CFE demos etc? SP members (aswell as members of other groups such as SA) have done much of the work in UCD in the Campaign for Free Education.

David Rynne, I could say that you've done nothing on fees. But I dont know who you are and what you've done so I cant exactly say you've done nothing.

by Huh! Fri May 23, 2003 16:12

See what I mean? Unless you get down on your knees before the SP, they see you as an enemy.

THEY are the CFE. THEY did all the work. Only THEY can have opinions in the campaign.

by David Rynne Fri May 23, 2003 16:23

I have done very little in the campaign against the fees but i would like try to start now. I am not a member of the SP (or any other party) and i don't claim to know very much about the CFE but i was at a meeting on wednesday held by members of CFE. I didn't ask which organisations the people who attended that meeting were involved in because quite frankly, it didn't matter. Nobody at the meeting did any electioneering, nobody tried to promote any political party or ideology. It was just a bunch of people with one aim in common.
The decision making at the meeting was highly democratic, there was no "head" nobody tried to force through an agenda.
If the posters are printed by the SP, who cares? unless the SP try to force changes to the posters to suit their agenda then it does not matter who prints the posters.

by d Fri May 23, 2003 16:25

USI are clearly quite happy for students to take so called direct action... but that ain't right... USI should condemn any students who break the law, and not be giving them tacit support...

i'm a trinity student and it's because of this kinda rubbish that i refuse to pay my 3 euro usi levy... i never have and never will.... (i'm not sure if many tcd students are aware they can ignore the levy when they are paying their registration fees)

by Oisin Kelly - SP Fri May 23, 2003 16:29

In an earlier posting I stated: "SP members (aswell as members of other groups such as SA) have done much of the work in UCD in the Campaign for Free Education."

In his last posting "huh!" stated: "THEY are the CFE. THEY did all the work. Only THEY can have opinions in the campaign."

An example of a slur?

by Huh! Fri May 23, 2003 16:32

You were blowing your trumpet. People in UCD have had a lot to say about SP activity in the CFE there.

Everything I said about the SP in the Anti War movement is true.

by Sean Fri May 23, 2003 16:38

Oisin you gobshite, David was defending the SP against the likes of Huh who use this thread as an excuse to have a go at you. so you attack him and call him a liar. can't you see this? and that was a low blow about not knowing what he has done for the campaign. everyone's not as famous as you Oisin, why is it relevant that you haven't heard of someone?

by OK - SP Fri May 23, 2003 16:59

I'm sick people coming on indymedia and slurring the work of SP members. The fact is that David did state: "The SP have almost nothing to do with the USI or the CFE or any other campaignes agaist the introduction of fees".

I'm not going to let things like that go unchallenged.

Now I'm accused of 'blowing my own trumpet' just because I'm defending the work done by members of the SP. If someone attacked the work of others in the CFE I'd also defend them.

I'm also accused of being 'famous' by sean- that's news to me. Setting the record straight is not calling someone a liar.

by Joe Fri May 23, 2003 17:07

David was obviously trying to defend the CFE against accusations that it was a USI front rather then commenting on whether or not SP members were involved. Your knee jerk party loyality has blinded you so badly that you can't even spot when someone is coming in on 'your' side of the argument.

by Magneto Fri May 23, 2003 17:13

For some reason, the paranoid Oisin thinks I am Huh! Well hes wrong. But to show there no hard feelings this is a link which details SP skulldruggery in CFE in UCD. It also catches them out lying about their role in the IAWM.

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=47473&start=140

by sick of it Fri May 23, 2003 17:15

Oh here we go again,
.
bitching and sniping about your amateur and naive guff that you pass for politics.

ow, you make me sick -you nineteenth century socialists, trying to apply your failed ideals at each and every opportunity.
ALl you do is argue and bitch about differences in your repective cults interpretations of your obsolete ideals.

waiting for your revolution..
its been and gone you morons, keep up.

Baaaaa, Baaaaaa, Baaaaaaa

you dont want anything but cults to follow. And boy do you have it in your SP, SWP, GR bla bla bla

well keep up the good work guys, diverting energy from fighting the real enemy and spoiling any chance of an alternative to the smug, parochial self-interested, narrow-minded and naive politics of the ruling parties.

by David Rynne Fri May 23, 2003 17:18

It appears that i might have been wrong when i said the SP had little to do with campaigns against fees. In this case it was totally legitimate for my error to be corrected.

I would like to ask what's the distinction between "the SP" and members of the SP?
I would like to see where membes of all the different parties could mingle freely without seeking approval from their Head office. Political Parties are not and should not aspire to be a cult. Freedom of association should still exist and people should not judge whole campaigns just because they contain members of certain political parties.

That might have been a key factor to the relative failure of the IAWM. because it was seen as a front for the SWP, many people form other backgrounds were reluctant to participate. It might have been a self fulfilling prophecy.

I see the future for the left to be in co-operation between the diffent parties on an issue by issue basis where common goals can be agreed upon.

by SP Watcher Fri May 23, 2003 17:29

They get all upset when someone criticises them.

They complain about USI not doing enough direct action, but were nowhere to be seen on Tuesday.

by SP watcher Fri May 23, 2003 17:41

"it could be seen as the USI officers distancing themselves from the tactics necessary to beat the government, ie it is a deliberate attempt to remove themselves from students."

Ah yes, of course. The Direct Action Occupations and handcuffings on tuesday, not to mention the mass protests this year were some alternative, mirror universe USI, not the USI we know at all!

"If the USI are unwilling to do the most basic task of representing students then student activists should not be afraid of looking in to an alternative national students union that will fight for our interests and will be democratic."

Ah yes, student politics. So undemocratic. At least, it is when Paul Murphy gets a piss-poor 10% in the UCD elections.

"As for all the crap, lies, slurs and mistruths about the SP on this thread. All I have to say is that you people should grow up and actually base criticisms on fact- not just lies."

Well said OK. Will you take the plank out of your own eye now?

by fin dwyer - CFE (personal capacity) Fri May 23, 2003 18:49 fin67 at campus dot ie

I can completely understand Jordans comments in relation to not being responsible about actions butsaying he wouldn't condone militant action is ludicrous.

Maybe Im just being conspiratorial but it almost seems that Colm is trying to monopolise all opposition to fees into U.S.I.

U.S.I.with CFE engaged in quite miltant action only this week in the department of transport, the dail etc. Why now say that he would not condone actions such as this. Fair enough he isn't responsible but why say he doesn't condone others in such actions.Where is that slogan " unity is strength. Finally i think in some way this may be directed at C.F.E. It so U.S.I. should realise that this isn't a competition -we certainly dont see it as such -we stand on the same side just with a different view of how to achieve our goal.

a reply and an explanation is neccessary to USI's members who you claim to represent in such statements

by Magneto Watcher Sat May 24, 2003 16:05

Dillon has an irrational hatred of the SP because they show him up for what he is a schemeing little fucker.

by = Sat May 24, 2003 16:52

Dillon is a little careerist schemer. Look at the stance he took on the USI referendum. All he wants is a year in UCD then off to Meath Co. Co. or a position in USI.

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=47473&start=40

by Gaz4ents - cfe personal capacity Sat May 24, 2003 18:28

all of a sudden Colm Jordan doesnt condone militant action? The following is a direct statement after last septs occupation of the dept. of education

" We are not taking this drastic action for the sake of revolution, it is the only legitimate action we can take, as we cannot withdraw labour or remove investment."

"The only legitimate action" - his words

Maybe the release is an attempt to distance USI from cfe, but that seems a bit odd. If it wasnt for cfe, colm jordan would have had to sleep rough on the streets of dublin on his own (fair play play for doing so)and there wouldn't have been half as many taking part in the occupation.

by David Rynne Sat May 24, 2003 18:42

Or if he's not trying, that's the effect his words are having. Non-legitimate actions are not non violent... doublespeak.

I have a feeling that it's only the personal opinions of an individual mascuarading as the policy of an entire demographic

by Magneto Sat May 24, 2003 18:57

Keep on trying. Its so amusing. Poor Oisin he really draws trouble on himself.

by Cian Sun May 25, 2003 01:03

1. SP members in UCD have played a constructive role in the Campaign for Free Education. It would be misguided to think that they have played a greater role than anyonelse, but along with a large number of activists from several political groupings but mostly none at all, they have helped build a strong campaign.

2. God only knows who Magnetto is, do we really care? If Paul Dillon is a careerist, he's going about it in a pretty bad way. Taking part in overnight occupations of government departments isn't a great way of endearing yourself to establishment politics or to the Irish electorate. When was the last time you saw all those little old ladies who vote religiouly, call for more militant direct action?

3. USI are dead right to point out that there may be non-violent direct action that is not organised by them. But to say that they won't support militant action, when they've just spent the last week engaged in a variety of illegal actions, makes no sense. Furthermore they are wasting their time talking about not condoning the actions of students (their members who pay their wages). USI officers should spare their condemnation for the government's plans to reintroduce fees.

by Cian Sun May 25, 2003 01:03

1. SP members in UCD have played a constructive role in the Campaign for Free Education. It would be misguided to think that they have played a greater role than anyonelse, but along with a large number of activists from several political groupings but mostly none at all, they have helped build a strong campaign.

2. God only knows who Magnetto is, do we really care? If Paul Dillon is a careerist, he's going about it in a pretty bad way. Taking part in overnight occupations of government departments isn't a great way of endearing yourself to establishment politics or to the Irish electorate. When was the last time you saw all those little old ladies who vote religiouly, call for more militant direct action?

3. USI are dead right to point out that there may be non-violent direct action that is not organised by them. But to say that they won't support militant action, when they've just spent the last week engaged in a variety of illegal actions, makes no sense. Furthermore they are wasting their time talking about not condoning the actions of students (their members who pay their wages). USI officers should spare their condemnation for the government's plans to reintroduce fees.

by Oul Flower Sun May 25, 2003 02:06

"Taking part in overnight occupations of government departments isn't a great way of endearing yourself to establishment politics or to the Irish electorate."

Who was that Charlie Haughey guy burning Union Jacks outside of Trinity in the oul' days?

Who was that rebel TCD SU leader who ended up with a crappy phone in show on RTE?

There's always a niche for the right type of soft-rebel.

by conor - there is no longer any temple of the sun Sun May 25, 2003 22:55 conor at ziplip dot com http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/12.Czech68.htm

im with aonghus hourihane on this one.

the usi are a big fucking waste. their "officer board" should go back to their boardroom and have a good old chat about how to plan their carreers. they already have the pot bellies, its just a matter of time before they chubby them out, along with their politics and trade in those dreadful rugby jerseys for unfashionable suits and a "job" in attending funerals and shaking hands.

given the chance id disaffiliate now.

im a bit pissed off with student politics. this is just the final straw. im off to live student life. goodbye newswire - may many more bickerings be had, and hours of potential greatness be wasted.

by The Insider Mon May 26, 2003 14:45

...that the last comment was a piss-take?

"I'm with Aonghus Hourihane on this one" - ah, yes, god bless that defender of student rights and Gardai Brutality....

by Finghin - SP Mon May 26, 2003 19:52

Conor, I, members of the SP and others at the time of the USI referendum in UCD were making critisisms of the USI for being bureacratic, undemocratic and riddled with careerists hacks elected by hacks etc. Sadly the leadership of the 'No' campaign were not making these points and in effect acted as cheerleaders to the USI bureacracy.

I do not think that it would be the best tactic for the students movement at the moment for colleges to disaffiliate when there is no fighting alternative on the horizon. I think it is best under current conditions to fight to reclaim the national union. It was for this reason I supported a No vote in UCD, not becuase the USI were fantastic or that they were responsible for winning concessions from the governemnt.

by The Insider Tue May 27, 2003 11:30

It's over, move on! It happened six months ago....give it up.

Go and reclaim the USI if you feel strongly about it, although I have doubts that people are willing to put their money where their mouths are.
Will CFE have more than just a token few representatives at USI congress next year?
PS - ANY student from an affiliated college is entitled to go to USI National Council. Hope to see you at the next one.

by Finghin Tue May 27, 2003 14:00

The referendum may seem irrelevant at this stage, but if USI is to be reclaimed activists in the SU's must be armed with the correct strategy and analysis of the USI. For this reason the issues raised in the UCD referendum campaign are important.

"Will CFE have more than just a token few representatives at USI congress next year? "

Ideally CFE would have had a larger number at congress, the reason only a few CFE activists were at USI congress was due to a number of factors. Unfortuanatly CFE is largly confined to UCD this meant that in reality it would only be UCD that would have sent delegates. In UCD that week the non sabbatical executive elections were taking place, these elections were quite important as it was not clear that the left would win a majority. These elections rightfully should have been a priority for CFE activists. Another reason for CFE's underrepresentation at congress was due to the closness of exams and the fact that UCD only had half the representation it normally should have had.

"PS - ANY student from an affiliated college is entitled to go to USI National Council. Hope to see you at the next one."

In general I think the best strategy to reclaim USI is through reclaiming the local unions however I think we will probably will be sending people to them.

I find it interesting that USI do not make this known among students.

by Working Class Hero Wed May 28, 2003 18:14

Eh kids, National Council is for the SU to go and represent you at. If you want to weigh it down with mindless bickering like you do at your own councils, go ahead. Anyway, its not up to USI to let you know, its up to your own SU. Oh you kids with too much time on your hands and not enough thingd to do with your teen angst but read the communist manifesto again and again and again.

by Finghin Fri May 30, 2003 19:16

"Eh kids, National Council is for the SU to go and represent you at."

Most SU's have done an extremely bad job at representing studnets.

"Anyway, its not up to USI to let you know, its up to your own SU."

The point I am making is that I believe it is the role of USI to be active and to direvtly mobilse students. If a local SU is failing to do this then USI should do it.