RTS (photos 1)

by For Fucks Sake Wed May 21, 2003 16:05

You are driving important articles off the front page with old photos.

Editors

Please consider removing these and the previous sets of photos.

by redjade Wed May 21, 2003 16:35

Indymedia is about making your own media, reporting things that way YOU see them.

You may not like these photos or think they are irrelevant, but they are as valid as text or audio or video.

indymedia is a multimedia do it yourself journalism forum (among other things) that allows YOU to be the journalist.

Critique Karen's work, if you like, but it should be appreciated none the less.

Also, join the PhotoGroup Mailing list, too
http://lists.indymedia.org/listinfo/imc-irl-photo

by For Fucks Sake Wed May 21, 2003 16:58

Hundreds of photos of the event have already appered here. These old photos which are neither better nor worse than the earlier ones are driving current photos off the front page.

Thats why I think they should be deleted.

What do the editors think?

by antrophe Wed May 21, 2003 17:00

...you are the editor.

by For Fucks Sake Wed May 21, 2003 17:03

Articles more relevant than these snaps have been deleted or moved.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed May 21, 2003 17:23 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Damn you for taking the trouble to go out and record a day of progressive direct action.

Damn you for taking high quality photographs of the event allowing those of us who were not there to see what it was like.

Damn you for providing an alternative to the mind-numbing drip-feed establishment media.

Damn you for not giving into apathy, for trying to capture what the day was like.

Damn and double damn you for then having the cheek to post it on an Independent media outlet created and run _specifically_ for people like you, doing the kinds of things you are doing.

You'll rue the day you actually got up and did something rather than sit back and bitch at people for no reason other than to confirm that you still exist.

I wish there were a lot more people like Karen Fallon putting their own work, either photographs or their own writing, on the Newswire instead of sectarian attacks and reposts of stuff from elsewhere.

I wish there were more people with that kind of drive and determination.

In fact, if she drove other 'stories' such as what a member of the SA said to a member of the SP about the SWP's actions in the CFE I wuld applaude the sheer common sense of the woman and cheer her most forthrightly.

by For Fucks Sake Wed May 21, 2003 17:27

These snaps show nothing new. They are unlikely to win any awards. Why should 2 week old snaps deserve 2 articles on Indymedia?

If they were by an unknown I doubt if there would be this defence of them.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed May 21, 2003 17:56 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

I don't know who Karen Fallon is and I care substanially less. This is ORIGINAL stuff. I couldn't are less if it was four weeks old and the pictures weren't any good this is some-one posting what is actually, incredible though it might seem, news. Something original, something not seen elsewhere.

And all you can do is bitch. It's quite one of the most pathetic and ridiculous series of posts I've ever had the misfortune to have inflicted on me by some misbegotten wretch only is only fulfilled when he or she, being equal minded in my personal abuse, is criticising people for doing exactly what this site was et up to encourage. This cretinous abuse of people and watse of bandwidth attacking who are willing to work for Indymedia and provide images and articles is nonsensical, damaging to Indymedia and the product of people who have nothing better to do than be spiteful about other people's work.

Christ, you are an unspeakable wanker.

by dec mccarthy Wed May 21, 2003 18:00

fuck the begrudgers

by Cian Wed May 21, 2003 18:03

Thanks for posting the photos up.

Its always nice to see some photos a few weeks later as the memories of a great street party are beginning to fade.

by sal Wed May 21, 2003 18:24

Can anybody tell me how I can put up some of my photos from Majorca please it was such a lovely holiday.

by For Fucks Sake Wed May 21, 2003 18:40

Why do you use such abuse just because you disagree with my opinion? Do you think that is the way forward for Indymedia? The next time another person or group disagrees with you is it ok for them to call you a moron and a wanker?

Should all posters to Indymedia adopt this attitude?

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed May 21, 2003 18:43 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

I used it comrade, because you deserved every single word. People who have read my posts will know that only once before have I used personal abuse in over a year of using Indymedia and it was as warranted than as it most certainly was warranted now. I mock your opinions, I deride your beliefs and I bearly acknowledge your right to an opinion when it is so laden with foolishness.

by For Fucks Sake Wed May 21, 2003 18:46

Justin, you may well be suffering from overwork.

by Indymedia Kevin - IMC Eire Wed May 21, 2003 20:19

karen thanks for putting the photos up, it is good to see different and new (and female) people getting involved with indymedia, ignore the morons on the newswire who are sitting around in their shit jobs all day with nothing to do except take their misery out on the newswire.

hope to see more of your photos up here in the future.

by No 6 Wed May 21, 2003 20:28

Red a good photo journalist can take dozens of photos and pick the one, that he and his picture editor feel really capture the essence, mood, flavour and atmosphere. It's a necessary and vital part of their job, due to size and space limitations.

Now Indymedia shouldn't work on the same model, however similar guidelines should apply. Just cause you can publish 30+ photos of an event (which you, fucko, regularly do) doesn't mean you should. By publishing so many photos you are pushing other stories and articles off the wire, with you ildiscipline. Furthermore, as anyone who has shifted through anothers holiday photos will tell you, large amounts of photos, unless unusally striking, become monotous, and blend together.

You are also fucking with Indymedia.ie bandwiwth and space limitations with your self absorded and amateurish behaviour.

Do you really need to publish 30+ photos or ten plus photos of an event?? Why not excerise some restraint, and appraise your photos honestly, and find those you feel accurately protray events, like a real photo journalist?

Instead of spamming up and abusing indymedia, let your photojournalist list discuss that.

And Karen, posting two week old photos, is a abuse of the wire, what part of the "news" in "newswire" don't you get.

You're both jokes.

by No 6 Wed May 21, 2003 20:31

Justin talking about begrudges and abusing a newswire coming from a party hack who'll justify his party having tea with Bush, and who only publishes press releases, is just laughable

by snapper Wed May 21, 2003 20:47

...(about 20) that I just got developed and will scan tomorrow. I'll put them up too. A few dodgy ones but they're dedicated to For fuck sake, No. 6 and other begrudgers who complain about people taking up space yet rarely say anything (in some cases of use) themselves.
Nuff claptrap from ya
But by the way

by R Isible Wed May 21, 2003 20:53

Thanks Karen for taking photos, recording the event and putting them up here.

Furthermore, thanks for loading as many photos as possible to each newswire post (5) so that the newswire remains more compact.

It is a pity that they weren't available a little earlier, but at least you Did It Yourself and provided an independent record of the event.

Hope to see more from you in the future, as I enjoyed these photos.

The points about not abusing the newswire by putting up just anything are ones I'd tend to side with generally, but I don't like the vicious personal abuse and I don't think that you can criticise someone who's actually done something so original and contributed their own work. The pictures are clear, well scanned, presented compactly and of infinitely greater value than yet another cut and paste from a mainstream news source, or a two line "hey let's argue about this that I read/heard" post.

This is all my personal opinion.

by R Isible Wed May 21, 2003 20:56

redJaDe's work speaks for itself clearly here. If you think you can do better then join the photovideo group at the link supplied by redJaDe. The personal abuse is totally off, but I suspect it'll be dismissed for what it's worth.

by No 6 Wed May 21, 2003 21:02

And do so under another name.......

It's a valid point, made empathetical, just cause you took a billion photos doesn't mean you through them up, part of Red's pompous attitude as a photojournalist wannabe means he should excerise some responsibilty and control, and discipline

by Indymedia Kevin - IMC Eire Wed May 21, 2003 21:19

Hey No 6, what do you care about bandwith, server space, etc... unless you put cash into the last pass-round for the cash needed to keep the indymedia ireland server going?

Somehow I doubt it - but if I is wrong please let me know.

If you dont like the IMC Ireland site, nobody is forcing you to look at it.

Red Jade your photos are deadly and I dont care if there are ten billion of them of the same protest, I like seeing the colour and life of what happens in this city/country, and it is great to see lots of images that you never get in the papers. Text and debate are great but christ there's enough of that on the newswire and images just rock my world.

And so, leading on from that actually... I may as well post up the article I wrote the other day. Have to post the photos first though cos they're on a different PC.

by hunter Wed May 21, 2003 22:36

eveyone knows that if the trots stick up a load of pics they ALWAYS get accused of spamming the wire.

by ollie - katalyzer Thu May 22, 2003 03:12

has anyone noticed that these photos are actually good?

No, well, they are! For example, they juxtapose strong images, internal to the photo at times, in powerful, provocative and challanging ways .The kid with the football and the mask guy, black and white.....newsworthy as photos can be, and they can be.

Indymedia lost out in the first days of the last gulf war because it was too text heavy.
Fact!!!!!

People went back to indymedia after a few days.

Images tell stories. Now _that_ is not news.

TEXTISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Tom Luby Thu May 22, 2003 10:07

They had a Mole hunt in Parnell Square but all they found was a bunch of gophers.

Risible:

Much worse abuse was directed at those who merely voiced an opinion that the photos should be deleted. Why didnt you comment on that?

by King Tut Thu May 22, 2003 12:38

Thats why Risible allows him to get away with dogs abuse.

by kitty-kat Thu May 22, 2003 13:03

The arguements for and against this post are both valid. But I have no time for all this abuse and surly character assasinations. AMATEUR & adolescent to say the least.

It is interesting to me that there is a debate evolving over how much a person is supposed to uplaod before they are being "selfish" and "spamming" the wire. i thought spam was malicious and wasteful. Both Karen & Redjade are people who are earnestly working to cover events that would often otherwise go unnoticed. there is a very valid point about the duplication of mainstream reports. that is NOT news and happens a helluva lot more. Photo-journalism, particularly original p-j needs to be respected as the equally valid means of reportage that it is.

So the photos are a few weeks old. that's a shame. but they are very very good.

what i think ought to be the focus here is how can the issue of articles getting pushed down the wire by resolved. now i now sweet f a about computers and technology an all, but i do know this... in mid-march when much shit was hitting the fan, i was out of the country. i was keen to know what kind of creativity had spilled into the Paddy's day parade. i checked indymedia.ie the following day; it took 6 clicks of the "older stories" to get back one day! six pages of articles to get back to yesterday(on a particulary slow and expensive computer). there was a lot going up - no spam. but the system that is in place does not seem to be able to cope. so even in less turbulent times stuff is pushed down the wire. people are hacked off because the newswire is used for announcements that are "not news" so we need a facility to allow just events announcements. not surprisingly people would rather bitch about others, attack each other and moan about whos fault it is, rather than offer assistance, suggestions for improvements (like a proper archive & announcements system) or do something constructive. this, by the way, is not an attack on those who spend a helluva lotta time working bloody bloody hard, dip into their own pockets etc. to make this site work: the IMCers. i am aware their means are limited.

Constructive criticism by all means. you sound real big and clever when you're really nasty, but try and keep your chin above the gutter lads, yeah?

by Bingo Thu May 22, 2003 13:51

I think the solution to this is a separate site that can host as many photographs as most people would want that is an official host for indymedia.ie photo's. Photo reports could then be put on the wire in one story for one event by putting up links to the photo site. Perhaps the photo journal list could enquire and set up something like that (would be willing meself only I'm not particularly into photography and I haven't a clue about web stuff).
In relation to this article, I think that there could be a better use for the newswire. I do appreciate the photo's but there have been about 10 (pure guess) newswire articles already just for photos of the RTS gig....

by MG Thu May 22, 2003 13:55

I have to say I agree with the original complaint that these photographs are effectively a waste of space. Can any of Karren Fallon's many defenders point out what new information the pictures bring to the story about RTS?

I have nothing against Ms Fallon or the photographers who (in my own humble and personal opinion) put too many bad pictures on this website. Some of the stuff from RTS and other protests was basically a collection of "holiday snaps" featuring posed protestors. Could the photographers responsible not just pick one or two good photographs and get rid of the rest, like most professional photographers? Or is it maybe the case that every photograph taken by Indymedia users is, well, shite?

With regards photojournalism. This is a type of journalism that captures the essence of a story in an "artistic" photograph. The only one of Ms Fallon's pictures which comes close to this is the final B&W above of the masked protestor and the young lad with the football. However, this photograph is out of focus and would have been binned by any professional photographer.

I don't mean to be negative, but "nice photographs" do not equal photojournalism. The only difference between Ms Fallon's photos and the dozens that have already been published on Indymedia is the different people featured in them. They add nothing new to the story or the debate about RTS and (in my humble and personal opinion) serve no purpose on this newswire...

by shut up whiners Thu May 22, 2003 14:48

yeah lads, the ole 'pushing articles off the newswire' complaint is just codswallop...you know the green bar at the top, where it says *newswire*..., that page happens to include the front page stories AND a link to older stories, and each consecutive page leads to the next page of older stories and on and on, .
Nothing is lost from the newswire, you just have to make the herculean effort of clicking your mouse..,
use yir heads!

And the pictures were great by the way, keep posting them Karen, if these guys want to read heavily edited mainstream crap let them go buy the Indo.

by Durutti Thu May 22, 2003 15:25

New people wont be attracted if all they see is a long line of photos (however worthy on the front page). The editors dont just complain about articles being pushed off the front page because they have nothing better to whine about.

by quite whining, make media! Thu May 22, 2003 16:12

These are quotes from

Indymedia's Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/FrequentlyAskedQuestionEn

----------------

Are you "activists" or "journalists?"

Some would say "activists," some would say "journalists," some would say both. Each Indymedia reporter/organizer must make this distinction for him/herself. Having a point of view does not preclude Indymedia reporters from delivering truthful, accurate, honest news.

=====

Of what are you "independent?"

No corporation owns Indymedia, no government manages the organization, no single donor finances the project. Indymedia is not the mouthpiece of any political party or organization. People involved with Indymedia have a wide variety of political and personal viewpoints. Anyone may participate in Indymedia organizing and anyone may post to the Indymedia newswires. Political parties or organizations may choose to publish articles on the Indymedia newswires, but in doing so they invite public debate about their positions from any reader of the site; any reader may respond by publishing his/her comments alongside the post in question. True, many Indymedia organizers and people who post to the sites have political opinions that fall along the left side of the political spectrum, yet each individual chooses his/her own level of involvement; there?s nothing in any Indymedia mission statement that declares people who are involved must be of any particular mindset, as long as they do not work contrary to the values espoused in Indymedia?s mission statement.

======

What is Indymedia?

Distilled from our mission statement: Indymedia is a collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth.

by flacid Thu May 22, 2003 16:27

'The Radical Equivalent Of Holiday Snaps Is Hardly What IMC Stands For'

obviously turgid has little to contribute - since his/her comment was entirely in the ttital and nothing in the comment box.

or, was his/her comment about RTS more than photos about RTS?

Is he/her saying that RTS is little more than 'fighting for the right to party' (a la Beastie boys)?

If he/she wants to make that kind of commentary, I am sure that the editors of the Irish Times will make space in their Letters to the Editor section.

the cpmplainer seem incapable of understanding that at the end of the newswire is:

''continue to indymedia newswire >>''
linked to
http://indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi

there, you can read all the 'older' newswire posts.

that's not too difficult is it?

by Turgid Thu May 22, 2003 16:29

My point was clear which is more than can be said for your stream of consciousness.

by flacid Thu May 22, 2003 16:35

indymedia is for people to make newsworthy media.

what have you done for indymedia, lately?

no one is forcing you to not contribute.

karen contributed. enough said.

by Turgid Thu May 22, 2003 16:39

As I am sure you do. I have a right to say the photos lack artictic merit and are outdated.

by flacid Thu May 22, 2003 16:44

of course you have the right to whine, but that is not the issue.

you have condemned people for participating according to the principles of Open Publishing

http://indymedia.ie/about/open_publishing.html

that's how this site is supposed to work.

if you want your news spoon-fed to you in some aesthetically pleasing manner, read the Irish Times.

by R Isible Thu May 22, 2003 16:52

I'm no keener on Justin's than anyone else's. However Justin was already called on it. I'd point out that the "tone" of this was set from the start with the "Fucks sake" posts which were belligerent and that's what Justin was responding to.

Any chance you had of making a point got lost in a flurry of abuse.

Again, thanks to Karen for taking the time to contribute.

by Turgid Thu May 22, 2003 16:53

I am exercising my right to suggest that these holiday snaps should be deleted.

by R Isible Thu May 22, 2003 16:56

your suggestions are well taken. Luckily some of these ideas are being worked upon with a new code base. The person doing this work volunteered to do it -- it is an impressive contribution in the spirit of indymedia: Do It Yourself.

I'd encourage all to consider:

1. Writing a feature. We are looking for features all the time.
2. Become an editor.
3. Take photos.
4. Record audio.

You can find out how to get involved in these activities by joining one of the mailing lists:
http://www.indymedia.ie/about/mailinglists.html

by R Isible Thu May 22, 2003 17:00

1. They are crossposts to other IMC sites
2. They are duplicates of information already on indymedia.ie
3. They are non-factual, make unsupported claims.
4. Are racist or sexist.

The photos fit none of those criteria. If they were a text story on RTS I'd argue in favour of moving them to be comments on the earlier newswire feature. This can't be done with photos though.

Meanwhile it'd be better if you put your energy into creating something original, something radical and passionate, something true.

by Turgid Thu May 22, 2003 17:05

Risible I voiced my opinion. That is true.

by Curious Thu May 22, 2003 17:09

If one person put up ten different sets of the SF picket of the British Ambassadors house would they be left up?

by R Isible Thu May 22, 2003 17:38

Turgid: No objection to your opinion being voiced. I'm taking you as a sincere person and suggesting that the energy that you put into complaining about this would have a greater effect in achieving the indymedia that _you_ want if you were involved in creating your own.

Curious: I would move them all to the same thread if they were close to each other on the newswire. I can't do that with photos. Karen can't add her photos as comments to the earlier threads either. She's taken the only reasonable option given our codebase. It's not like she's chosen the option of putting the photos in at the top of the newswire when she could have added them as comments to a pre-existing newswire story.

by Turgid Thu May 22, 2003 17:41

Your_Energy_Might_Be_Better_Directed_In_Accepting_That_Some_People_Do_Not_Think_Karens_Snaps_Are_A_Valid_Use_Of_Indymedia.

by No 6 Thu May 22, 2003 18:50

But the one I want to talk about is Kev

For starts how much did you contribute last time Mr Kev?

Secondly, my opinion only counts if I cough up, my my what a wonderful example of your anarchist ethics rolling on.

Secondly my knowledge of Bandwiwth and etc comes from chatting to an IMCer at a resent demo apparently this dirth of photos taking up space and bandwiwth is costing Indymedia money, money which people like Kev doesn't contribute, money which could mean IMC Ireland could be forced to close down.

Course according to Kev if I throw a fiver into the hat, this won't happen, I'll just have to keep throwing a fiver in every couple of monthes so Karen can show off her out of focus shots, oh and I can't complain either.

by Indymedia Kevin Fri May 23, 2003 15:17

I posted it to Eamonn C when I was away.

Anytime you feel like giving us cash to help with the costs of the server, drop us a mail.

by redjade Fri May 23, 2003 15:44

I ready to put in my measley 20 bucks.

others?

[ not that it matters, but I recalling putting in 40euros that last time the hat was passed ]

by Daithi Fri May 23, 2003 16:46

Really, I don't think it's necessary for (a) someone to contribute financially to Indymedia's costs, in order to express an opinion - some people contribute with their time, or by promoting, or by helping with tech issues, and many people are interested but unable to afford..I know this wasn't the intention of any of those who are saying what they contributed but it could be infered - kind of exclusive and a bit too close to the 'stakeholder' ideals for my liking, and (b) anyone to have to say what they donated or what they are going to donate. Totally unnecessary.

by No 6 Sat May 24, 2003 14:58

Cheers for Kev and JD for proving my point.

Indymedia is a democractic media, but apparently Kev and JD are intitled to more democracy than I.

I mean I've only chipped in cash at the first few meetings bought the CD and went to a fundraiser.

by No. 7 Sat May 24, 2003 15:12

give it a rest, this so-called discussion was stupid from the start.