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news report
 Thursday May 15, 2003 23:13 by Anne
 An opinion poll just published by the Irish Times has shown that the Labour Party has overtaken Fine Gael as the second most popular party and is only 10% behind Fianna Fail. Now is the time to build a left alternative to the failed politics of the right wing parties. For years in Ireland we been faced with absolutely no alternative to the failed politics of the civil war parties of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. At last we now have the prospect of a left wing government instead of continued right wing rule. Yes a Labour led government will not change EVERTHING overnight, but it is a healthy prospect for Irish politics and activists. It will not change society and give us the kind of Ireland that we are all striving for. But perhaps it will go some way to making the kind of change that we want a little easier. Now I think is the time for all those who are serious about change to get involved in building opposition to the right wing parties of Fiana Fail and Fine Gael |
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Comments (44 of 44)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44A post with the word Labour and progressive in the same sentence. Remember the Tax on clothing and footwear? Remember the mean and lean 1980's when the working class were taxed to the gills and the rich and their political representatives were milking the people for every last penny? Were were the "progressives" of the LP? Sitting pretty and saying fuck all. Turning a blind eye to the brown paper bags and concentrating on getting into Government to get their share of the spoils. The Labour Party the loyal opposition.
If Labour picks up a few votes from the implosion of Fine Gael, it is evidence of their nice respectable pro-privatisation right wing stance not some kind of slide to the left in Irish politics.
Labour moved into Fianna Fail and Fine Gael's right wing establishment territory. Doing so cost them thousands of members, down to just 3,500 paper members at Rabbitte's election. Luckily for them one of the traditional right wing parties is falling apart leaving Labour as an inviting home for the liberal end of the Fine Gael vote that doesn't like the look of the PDs or Fianna Fail.
This isn't the growth of a left wing force, just the replacement of the traditional anti-Fianna Fail right wing party with a shinier model.
Meanwhile, as Labour pinches Fine Gael's turf, the Greens, Sinn Fein, Socialists and various independents are moving into their old ground.
Yeah, looks like good news on the surface. God knows, anything does!
BUT - ain't this the same Labour that supported a Yes vote in the 2nd (yeah vote again suckers) Nice Treaty referendum? That same Nice treaty that supports an EU Army (Romano Prodi's words), mass liberalisation (read - privitsation, transfer of wealth, and the complete erosion of national sovereignty!
Michael D. is the man but let's not get illusions that Labour would be any different that the other toe rags. It's the framework, the structures, the styles, the system that is fundamentally flawed.
The answer my friend is NOT pissing in the wind!
SP/Militant were in Labour in the lean 80s when those cutbacks were being implemented.
Interesting the points raised about Labour in the 80's. Worth bearing in mind that Pat Rabitte, Liz McManus, Eamon Gilmore, Jan O'Sullivan, Pronsias DeRossa, Declan Bree and many others were not members of this Labour Party that betrayed the working classes.
At the same time Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and the other leading members of the Socialist Party were.
The poll results are significant, given that Labour is only 10% behind Fianna Fail and that the combined vote of the right wing parties is only just over 50%.
Anyone who wouldn't prefer a Labour Minister for Justice over Michael McDowell, doesn't realise how evil McDowell is!
HE must be, if he was a worker he'd realise that most of the rights that we now enjoy as workers in Ireland were initiated by the EU, which is dominated by Social Democrat governments.
So let the poseurs who post here on Indymedia continue with their hard left wank-in's, and let the rest of us who are involved in real electoral politics (Labour, Sinn Fein, Sp, Greens) get on with building a real alternative for the working people of this country.
Pat Rabbitte may not have been a member of the Labour Party in the 1980s but he's hardly squeaky clean.
Whatever you think of the Workers' Party, they did play an important role in the 1980s and were the only real alternative to Labour at the time. Love them or hate them, but don't dismiss them. Remember Rabbitte and Co. set out to destroy the WP and had planned from Day One to rise to the top, either in Labour or a united FG / Labour social/christian democrat entity.
Remember also that Rabbitte also accepted £5,000 from Frank Dunlop and failed to vote in accordance with WP policy against Quarryvale. Then there's the other £2,000 (or was it £3,000?) that Dunlop gave him, but Rabbitte returned later.
Remember too that P. De Rossa was responsible, as Minister for Social Welfare, for the lowest ever percentage increase under the FG/Lab/ DL budget in the late 1990s. This was the same P. De Rossa who "apologised" to the Dail in Irish having advertised a state funded DL job only in the DL internal magazine.
The same parties (LAB and DL) broke all records in the number of party hacks who were employed in their various offices as researchers and gurus.
Rabbitte was a Sticky back when they were still moving gear about. Has Pat told us where we can find Sticky weapons?
It would certainly help create a more conducive atmosphere if Pat R were to tell us all what happened to the OIRAs arsenal.
Surely Pat R was not so naive as to be ignorant of the existence of Group B?
When fergal says that "most of the rights that we now enjoy as workers in Ireland were initiated by the EU" I wonder which rights he is talking about?
I think the most important rights which many of us enjoy, are the 8 hour day, the right to free association as embodied in trade unions, the right to free speech, the right to free health care (shameful as the current version is) and so on. These were all established well before the EU or any of its predecessors came into being. They were initiated, fought for, and won by the blood of millions of workers, internationally and in Ireland. What important right was ever granted? When did the social democrats ever do anything but wrap up and sell what we had already won, or were on the verge of winning?
You can have all the rights in the world but they dont impact on your life until they are established and protected by legislation.
You think the 8 hour day existed before Labour and Social Demoratic parties in Europe and elswhere gave it legal standing??? Catch yourself on. Or the right not to be fired because you got married? Ask any woman working in the civil service pre 1973 about that one.
Give us all the rhetoric about 'the blood of millions of workers' if you want, at the end of the day it was only when progressives went the parliamentary road that any of our rights were properly established.
Nothing will change until we get organised well enough to get elected by the people. All the pious contempt in the world will change that.
So Chekov, are you really on the side of ordinary people or are you just another waffler?
I have a lot of time for the comments made by Anne to start this piece off. We do not live in a perfect world and she has recognised that. However, she has also recognised the possibility of a real left of centre Government with a real left of centre Taoiseach.
While I accept that Labour is not as radical as many Left Wing activists would like, they have never been in a controling position in any Government.
They are certainly more left wing and more socially conscious that FF, FG or PD.
If those left leaning people who spend their time and energy criticising electoral politics could instead attempt to sieze the opportunity that is presenting itself due to the demise of FG, then perhaps we could at least manage to move the centre of Irish politics towards the left.
This opportunity may not come again in a hurry.
Yes Niall - The Greens, like Labour proved their middle-class smug credentials when they condemned the likes of Mary Kelly and the Catholic Workers for Direct Action.
It's great to go to the barricades and shout encouragement from behind the garda lines.
Niall, the people did give Labour their chance in the '92 coalition Government and they delivered their verdict in the 1997 General Election. They reneged on promises, brought in a tax amnesty, put a Finance Minister in charge who far from taking on big business can be assured of a multitude of offers of Directorships when he quits politics.
I'm all for increased support for the Left. I'm all for burying Fine Gael once and for all. The Labour party is a party for middle class people with a hobby in social justice, something to do between planning a weekend break in Brittany and writing letters to the Irish Times.
Frankly, from a purely electoral perspective, if I were you I'd be worried, all those nice pleasant middle class people casting safe semi-radical votes to return Green TDs are just the people Rabbitte is going after. If his conference speech said anything, it was that he was moving the party to the right, taregtting FG and middle class voters.
Labour has surrendered in its struggle for the support of working class people and this space is being moved into by Sinn Fein, various Indepdents and, in a couple of areas, the Socialist Party. Parties that supported direct action in Shannon, that support significant redistribution of wealth, that opposed the Nice Treaty and fought it on the ground, that oppose the Bin Charges.
I'm a republican-socialist who joined Sinn Fein as the best vehicle to bring about the changes in society I want. It's not perfect, not by any means and I have no doubt some people are going to explain to me in great details where the problems lie, but it is a radical party fighting for social change in a way that neither Labour, nor the Greens are.
The initial comment on this stream is a valuable and important one. The southern Irish electorate has two stark options in the comming years.
The first in for an endless round of centre right coalitions with FF and FG as the centre of gravity, ensuring that the failed political and economic leadership of the last decades continues uninterrupted.
The second option, which is a serious option for the first time in decades, if for those parties who identify as left of centre to begin building a real opposition. This would include Labour, SF, the Greens, the SP and left leaning independents such as Gregory and McGrath. While all of these parties and individuals have significant differences of opinion on various policy issues, this is the only possibility for breaking the centre right consensus in Leinster House.
The various responses to Anne's comments display the usual immaturity and inability of sections of the left to think strategically. Sinn Fein has as many reasons to oppose cooperation with Labour, including CC O'Briens role in state repression as a Labour minister 70s, and the anti-republican position of Labour during the Spring/Quinn years. However, to allow such differences to block the development of a left-republican-green alliance would be to put narrow party political and ideological differences before the more important task of building a real political and economic alternative for the people of the 26 counties.
One has to wonder if those ultra critics who expend so much energy in attempting to wreck meaningful left alliances are motivated by socialist principles or some other, more sinister objectives.
The issue sould not be whether such a left-republican-green coalition can be built, but on what basis, with what policies, and to what end. The Left needs to mature to realising that such questions are the way forward, and start serious, meaningful discussions at local and leadership level to advance a new political alignment in southern Irish politics.
If this is done in parallel with the full implementation of the Belfast Agreement, which will create the conditions for deeper levels of all Ireland development and greater opportunities for the realignment of northern politics around a left-right continium, there is a real possibility of significant changes across the island both politically and constitutionally.
These are the tasks facing all progressive forces on this island. So lets stop the petty bickering and start building a radical political and economic alternative which can offer Irish people, north and south, real and meaningful change.
Such radicalism !Anne, that was really stirring stuff ,especially the penultimate paragraph.It's great to hear the spirit of Connolly still lives on. I'm sure the establishment must be quaking in their boots.Phew!
To turn your phrase around: You can have all the laws in the world but they dont impact on your life unless they are established and protected through struggle. I think that analysis of history shows quite clearly that the vast majority of our basic rights were won through struggle rather than legislation. How about our right to 'nationhood', would you say that "it was it was only when progressives went the parliamentary road" that this right "was properly established"?
The 8 hour day is a good case in point. In most Western countries, the 8 hour day was pretty much imposed on capitalism by the trade unions through various struggles. In some cases unions unilaterally declared it, in others they applied enormous political pressure which forced the government to grant it. Legislation generally lagged far behind. In the US the main period of struggle for the 8 hour day was between the 1860's and the 1920's when it was fought for, and won, in an enormous range of industries. Congress got around to enshrining it in legislation in 1938 (Fair Labor Standard Act). Both before and since the legislation was passed, it has routinely been ignored in those sectors where the workforce doesn't have the strength to defend it.
Things like the 8 hour day, the right for women to work and so on are enshrined in legislation as part of the standard, off-the-shelf, liberal-democracy model of the Western state. However, as anybody who has ever worked as an immigrant will know, these rights only exist in fact for those who can defend them.
Finally, Fergal, it's not just that I like waffling. I just happen to think that anybody who wants to create a more just world would be much better off building up the ability of the working class to struggle, in our streets, workplaces and communities, rather than being sidetracked into the hopeless farce of electoralism.
David and Cyncic are right to say that current members of the Socialist Party including Joe and Clare as Militant supporters where members of a Labour Party which in the 80s implemented cuts. However there is a dishonest insinuation that Joe, Clare etc supported or didn't oppose cuts in the 80s. Complete rubbish.
What they fail to mention is that Militant was an organised opposition to the cutback and coalition politics of Spring and Co. That opposition was met with expulsions.
Where is the organised opposition within Labour today? Where is the organised opposition to a leadership that supported Nice, opposes non payment of bin charges, doesn't rule out private sector involvement in public services? The fact they support these policies is a clear indication that there doesn't exist within Labour a strata of workers and radicalised youth to keep them in check. Spring and Quinn succeeded in bequething to Rabbitte a party whose niche is that of being the establishment party that isn't tainted with corruption to the extent of FF or FG. A party of the establishment nonetheless.
On newstalk 106 this morning Justin Barrett (the nazi christian fundaMENTAList) was voted 5 times more popular than bertie ahearn and more popular than any other politician in the list. It's the same principle that got Le Pen into the presidential run off in france. Protest votes are don't represent peoples satisfaction with a particular canditate, they represent gross dissatisfaction with all the alternatives.
I want to help launch a campaign to have a "none of the above" option on future electoral ballot cards to give a voice to those whe are pissed off with the current system (including anarchists)
We don't want New Labour in Ireland we don't want FG or Fianna Fail.
there is a discussion on the hotpress.com message board about this issue http://www.hotpress.com/discuss/topic.adp?d=248709&t=2656330
You may have missed the previous thread where these issues came up. I attach some comments which I think are relevant.
************************
magneto
by just Wondering Wed, May 14 2003, 5:42pm
If labour is such a democratic party whay was Joe Higgins thrown out.
Maybe the reason that you won't be chucked out is that you are no threat to the leadership
Motion 15
by Daniel - LY Wed, May 14 2003, 6:14pm
May i also point out that motion 15, though poorly worded is not in favour of privatisation, but against it, as it points out that the "guiding principals" of a public service "should be in the public benifit, not private enrichment"
Either way, confrence DID vote against privatisation.
The Joe Higgins Question Has Been Dealt With Many Times
by Magneto Thu, May 15 2003, 9:30am
Have you missed so many threads? Had I been around I would have opposed the expulsion of Joe and other millies. But they didnt make things easy for themselves. Their sectarianism and the undemocratic way in which Militant ran Labour Youth for years had won them a lot of enemies even on the left of Labour. (Despite this, many members of Labour Left and New Direction opposed the expulsions.)
Militant also treated people with contempt by pretending that Militant did not exist as an organisation. (It obviously did, how else could it have been a section of the CWI?)
Instead of openly fighting for their right to exist insude Labour as a distinct faction, Militant pretended that they were just a support group for the paper Militant Irish Monthly. This made it easier for the bureaucracy to portray Militant as a secret organisation intent on taking over Labour by covert means.
Joe Higgins was allowed to appeal his expulsion to the Labour Party ADC.
John Throne was not afforded the same opportunity by the SP, the US section or the CWI.
Hummm.......
by RED DAWN 1917 Thu, May 15 2003, 3:43pm
...
Magneto makes the point above that he is in the same postition as Joe Higgins was claiming that by calling him rabbittes man than joe was springs man. This is utter rubbish.
Joe was part of the Marxist wing of the Labour Party aka Militant. He actively campaigned for Labour to take a socialist platform. We his branch nominated him for election the LPP stepped in and pushed that democratic decision aside.
...
Logic
by Magneto Fri, May 16 2003, 9:27am
"Magneto makes the point above that he is in the same postition as Joe Higgins was claiming that by calling him rabbittes man than joe was springs man. This is utter rubbish. "
Look, the same rules and logic apply to SP/Militant as the rest of the Human Race.
Joe Higgins was in Labour during 3 Coalition Govts which brought in cutbacks. Joe and the rest of Militant opposed those cutbacks. Joe clearly was not Corishs, Cluskeys, O'Learys or Springs man.
I am opposed to Labour going into Govt with FG/PD/FF, I oppose privatisation, I oppose local charges, I support Direct Action against the war.
I am obviously not Rabbitts man.
Just because you say that YOU WERE THE MARXIST WING OF LABOUR, it doesnt bestow any special powers on you. That was your opinion. You dont have a monopoly on the claim to be Marxist.
Labour a left wing alternative to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael? What the hell, Labour have never been shy about jumping into bed with either of the right wing parties. The thought of getting into government with Fine Gael gives Rabbitte wet dreams.
Anyone for an electoral alliance between SWP, SP, and independent lefts?
Magneto you say you are opposed to privitization etc but what are you doing to organise opposition within Labour to change the party from the course it has been on. Where is the organised opposition?
Do you fear expulsion if you set out to organise such opposition, does any opposition exist to organise? Does your fear of expulsion lead you to adopt a nom de plume? If not why don't you unmask yourself?
Because I have seen what happens to others who stand up to the SP. I have no desire to have my sex life or other aspects of my personal life used in attacks by your members.
Even those who have attempted to uncover my identity have launched personal attacks on Paul, Donal and Cian because they were Magneto suspects.
As you well know Labour Party members can and do publicly disagree with Labour policies. That does not happen in the SP.
The opposition within Labour is not as organised as I'd like, but it takes time. I dont want a party within a party, trying to take over Labour by covert means. That is what Militant did.
I'm sure the leadership of Labour can live with members publically disagreeing with them. Sure they have no choice if the person disagreeing remains anonymous. What the won't stand for is a coherent and organised opposition which does not exist in Labour.
I've no idea what you are referring to in terms of attacks on peoples personal lives by SP members. It's certainly not something I have done nor would I defend it if perpetrated by others.
What I also disagree with is anonymous postings. People should honestly say who they are and which organisation they belong to and I'm addressing EVERYBODY.
"I'm all for burying Fine Gael once and for all."-Justin Moran (SF), posted above.
So what about FF, or are ye thinking of going into Cahoots?
I have come under attack openly from SP/SY members and anonynously from those who put forward SP/SY views. Among the insults levelled at me were that I had grudge against the Socialist Party because I had been dumped by a female SP member. When I queried the SP failure to lobby the ICTU ADC I was told I had no right to have an opinion because I wasnt active in the PSEU (I wonder where they got that info?).
I was also called a fascist, nationalist, catholic nationalist and anti-protestant because I disagreed with the SP on the North. Even during the John Throne Open Letter thread I was called a nationalist and it was alleged I was hostile to British workers organisations.
Just look back through the recent discussions involving the SP and you will see many personal insults thrown at thodse who disagree with you. It would be better if everyone were open regarding their identities. But in the circumstances I can hardly blame Magneto for keeping under cover. You might also note that some of the SP on Indymedia use their initials or names such as Red.
I really cant see where the main argument is going. Militant were in the Labour Party for 17 years, during those years they opposed coalition and the cutbacks which came with being in Government. But they did stay in Labour. I honestly cannot see how you are in any position to lecture those who are now in Labour.
I personally think they would be better off elsewhere but I recognise that many genuine Socialists are active in the Labour Party and in Labour Youth. They are not afraid to break the law, upset the Bureaucracies of Labour and ICTU and to take part in direct actions.
I think the debate has been dragged down to the usual level again, and pat you're as guilty as anyone for getting into stupid arguments. You use ridiculas insults as quick as any of the SY kids.
But whats the bottom line basically if I join Labour work for Labour and fight for Labour what will they do? They will most probably go into coalition with Fine gael or Finna Fail. In short why should I bother? They haven't even considered trying to form a left wing coalition.
As for Joe Higgins and Clare Daly and all spending seventeen years in Labour and being expelled, fair play to them for trying but theres no way I'm spending seventeen years of my life in there!
Most newer members of the Sp as in all of those who joined the SP since it became the SP, including myself, didn't join labour and have never been a member. I don't know the numbers but we must be at least half the party if not the majority. Personally I'd feel militant should have left earlier especially in Britain but I wasn't in the group then so I don't know.
If I didn't join the SP I probably would have ended up in SF if anything but doubhtfully Labour.
Anyway the point about lecturing the sp for being in labour is lost on alot of us. The point about being in Labour now. (And Magneto do you really want a cwi faction in there?)
What are you offering? Absolutely nothing, give us a reason to join at least. And remeber Anne although you suggested a left wing alternative to FF and FG Labour has done no such thing. It will support either FG or FF and says as much. Why should anyone become passionate about that.
The only way Labour will turn anyway left is to counter the growth of groups like the SP or SWP.
Michael might be serious about wanting insults to stop but it doesnt look as if hs is. Brian Cahill used the term anti-protestant against me, an swper and Ray. Is Brian a kid?
I f you look back you will see that many of the insults came from people who would be outside the SY age group.
Why dont you take Michael O'Briens advice and use your full name?
(My full name is Pat Corcoran, this is generally known)
I dont think either Michael O'Brien or HS have added anything new. We are all getting repetitive at this stage. What bothers me is the way the SO carry on as if they were the One True Church. To qoute Cromwell: 'I beseech thee, consider in the bowels of Christ that you might be wrong'.
Also HS, on insults, Michael O'Brien denied that the SP or SY were personally insulting their opponents.
Brian said I was anti-Protestant? Was this recently?
It was sometime back, the thread related to Holycross. He reffered to you, me and Irony Is Dead as "Anti Protestant Punters"
The 'old' tactic still works with the micks then...
Whether you are Trotskyists who used to be in Labour or Marxists who are now in Labour. You all just want to rule. Magneto should get of Labour and hs and the others should get out of the "Socoalist" Party if they are serious revolitionaries. I noticed Michael OB and hs were silent on Direct Action.
Some members of Labour Yth at least got involved in direct action. Which is more than can be said for the rrrrrrrrrrevolutionary trots.
Or do the SP seem to get enraged whenever anyone challenges their world view?
Would it be impossible to set up some kind of forum that looks at what Labour,Sp, SWP anarchists and all the rest have in common and form loose aliances to try to achieve those specific goals without all this bickering and totally unproductive infighting?
(I know that there is lots of history but can't we at least try to work through?)
Well said david.
The sooner we comrades work together, the sooner a difference will be made.
If you segment, isolate and dismiss people who like you, are trying thier best to bring about a fairer world, that world will never come about.
The sooner the SP realise we are all comrades, and we all work with what we have in common, we will all benifit.
This bickering has gotten the movement NOWHERE.
Thanks for agreeing with me (despite my spelling mistakes)
But "The sooner the SP realise we are all comrades, and we all work with what we have in common, we will all benifit. " is just an indication of what the problem is.
Why can't we pretend not to care who's fault it is and find a common ground where we try to resolve our most basic disputes. It will only take a little bit of self restraint from everybody to keep the discourse productive, nobody gains when particular parties are singled out as the root cause of all our troubles.
Because of the fundamental differences in ideologies of the different groups i'm not expecting everybody amalgamate, just to co-operate to achieve the goals that everybody agrees on.
Debatable issues such as tactics that are based the judgement of individual groups should not be so divisive. A diverse set of tactics would be so much more powerful than All marching or All direct action or All Court Battles or All letter writing campaigns. Can we fight this struggle on many different fronts, each group offering their full public support for the reasonable actions of the others and stop constantly trying to undermine the "competition"
i dont know why i bothered to reply to this because i knew the title wud attract the typical dogmatism of trots and the rest of the far left... im no big supporter of Labour but for Gods sake a child has to learn to walk before it can run....Social Democracy is far better than what ireland has at the moment... it can only be a positive thing for IRISH PEOPLE that a health, education, welfare is improved..... Trots dont care a bout anything outside their bubble, a bubble of dogmatism that pushes people on the left firther to the centre......
"The second option, which is a serious option for the first time in decades, if for those parties who identify as left of centre to begin building a real opposition. This would include Labour, SF, the Greens, the SP and left leaning independents such as Gregory and McGrath. While all of these parties and individuals have significant differences of opinion on various policy issues, this is the only possibility for breaking the centre right consensus in Leinster House."
Many of us feel betrayed by previous coalitions where the so-called left propped up FF or FG real bourgeois governments. Could I challenge the left of the Greens and Sinn Fein to get resolutions passed at their Ard Feiseanna calling for only coalitions of the Left as a Sinn Fein contributer suggested above. Both these Parties left the door open last time. As for the Labour Party the same applies. Mind you they prefer carpetbagginf FGers leke O'Malley to straight Neutralist like Roger Cole ijn Dun Laoghaire so the prognosis is not good.
Yes there is a chance to break the right if only the Left would refuse to breath life back into discredited Parties like FG.
Yossarian: Merely because I did not attack FF in a post that had nothing to do with them you assume I support them? For the record, everything said about FG goes for them with the rider that the destruction of FG is a strong possibility within the next ten years. The destruction of FF is, regrettably, not.
Jim: You could challenge us to do so but they would not be passed. Sinn Fein policy is that any proposed coalition would be debated at a Special Ard Fhéis. There were two attempts to rule out coalition with FF ahead of the 2002 General Election. One was narrowly defeated and the second defeated by a wider margin. I spoke in support of ruling out coalition both times but in a democratic political party you don't always get what you want.
I agree with the argument that the only thing keeping FG on life support is the occasional assistance of Labour and I agree, to a certain extent with the idea of a coalition government of the left outlined as above, but I don't think the numbers would be there without some right-wing seats. I think a realistic option within the next 10-15 is a coalition government where the largest groupings are of the Left.
Excuse this diversion from the thread but the Yossarian commenting above is not the same as the one on the fight fees or WEF coming to Dublin threads.
Justin Moran wrote the following reply to Jim Monaghan's point about left wing parties in the Dáil going into coalition with Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the PD's and so on :
"Jim: You could challenge us to do so but they would not be passed. Sinn Fein policy is that any proposed coalition would be debated at a Special Ard Fhéis. There were two attempts to rule out coalition with FF ahead of the 2002 General Election. One was narrowly defeated and the second defeated by a wider margin. I spoke in support of ruling out coalition both times but in a democratic political party you don't always get what you want."
That is exactly the same formula as was used by the Labour Party in the past, and it is not good enough.
This is a matter of principle, because it means that any left wing policies put foward by Sinn Féin are only bargaining chips for a future coalition (just like the Labour Party). Labour used only to prop up Fine Gael - in the 1990's Spring's party showed it was willing to perform the same service for fianna Fáil.
I do not agree with every policy advocated by the Socialist Party, and indeed also the SWP - but I know where they stand on this issue - they are against coalition with the right on principle, and say so in advance ofany election.
The big problem for Sinn Féin is that the party participates in a coalition with three right wing parties in the six counties - it is difficult to be against coalition with the right on principle in one part of the island, without following the same policy in the other part. The answer : be against coalition with right wing parties on both sides of the border.
I as glad to see that the Scottish Socialist Party stood on exactly this policy in the recent Scottish Assembly elections.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can draw comparisons between being in coalition in the South and in the North. It is possibly the most nonsensical comparison I've seen on Indymedia and I read a great deal of the SWP/SP/SA debate.
The Good Friday Agreement and the Executive it set up is, wait for it here because it gets tricky about now, not normal. It requires power-sharing. It is an artificial coalition.
If SF had the policy of being against coalition in the South and for it in the North, which it does not, it wouldn't be hypocritical at all, it would be a recognition of the differences between a State where one can choose to enter coalition or not and one where you really don't have much choice. CHrist, if you think that's Sinn Fein's 'big problem' you are living in a much better reality than I am.
As for SF in the South, yes the Ard Fhéis position is much the same as the Labour party's one and no, it isn't good enough. Where do you see me agreeing with it? I stated specifically that I DISAGREE with it.
Lastly, I am not opposed to coalition in every single manifestation. I would support the formation of the kind of broad left coalition mentioned earlier. Being anti-coalition as a principle means never, no matter who approaches you or what the political situation is, entering coalition with anyone. Therein is a recipe for marginalisation.
As for swapping left-wing ideals for power as Labour did, certainly this is true and exactly what they did. I find it intriuing however that the PDs are as right-wing as ever and moving the Government in that direction.