Indymedia refuses to reflect any diversity at all

by Joe Thu May 08, 2003 16:30

Poor John, he really hates indymedia but he can't keep away. So he keeps popping into threads and now even creates his own to tell us how bad indymedia is. Makes you wonder does it not?

by Cato Thu May 08, 2003 16:35

Level of mediocrity and one day you too will be a little lenin.

by . Thu May 08, 2003 16:36

is from newswire article which is basis of feature - why not go and reort on a few things yrslf johnny boy

by Chekov Thu May 08, 2003 16:40

I followed the action in the north _LIVE on indymedia. There were constant updates and it was the only source of news as to what was going on. Indymedia was highlighting the use of Shannon way way before the mainstream media (or any of the political parties) caught on. Indymedia has many features on the war. The access to the site peaked around F15, March 1st and day X - purely because indymedia was covering the stories that the mainstream media wasn't.

Face it John, there is a hell of a lot of criticism around for the IAWM - not just from anarchists, and you can't shut it up. Claiming that publishing this expression of dissent is evidence of a 'lack of diversity' is orwellian in the extreme. The whole point of the article is that the IAWM are running their conference as a stage-managed, utterly controlled rally, with a notable lack of diversity in speakers, rather than an open forum. You (presumably a member of the SP or SWP) are using the old technique of accusing your opponents of doing exactly what you are about to do.

Finally, if you think that other items are more newsworthy, why not knock together a feature on them and propose it?

by Aidan Thu May 08, 2003 16:41

Our first feature on Neutrality was last June
check our archives.

And the feature is one persons opinion about the anti war meeting, and his problems with.

You could quit your whinging and write a counter piece which we could include on the feature, but that'd force you to take time from your busy schedule of being a complaining idiot

by Yawn Thu May 08, 2003 16:44

Yeah this thread is already wasting space so we may as well have another whinge about everyones favourite lefty party.....

by Daithi - 1 of IMC IE Thu May 08, 2003 16:45

What are you talking about? You will of course be aware that the feature refers to an article not written by a collective or a committee but by one contributor to the newswire. It's an original article produced first on the wire and not copied from another source, and has inspired a vigorous debate (and some feeble diversions, but that's another matter). I will freely admit that we have been slow off the mark with putting features on prior events, breaking news, etc. but (a) that's what the newswire is for, and all the items you mention were contributed to the newswire with no problems, and (b) do you seriously suggest that we shouldn't try to improve / be more current / produce extra features / get more people involved because we missed out on stories in the past? Your assistance with this would be very welcome. You want a feature on the war on terror? Get to it. You want foundation hospitals? Try a newswire article for a start setting out the details for people in the South who might not be familiar with the details. Assembly suspension? Well of course there has been no coverage in the commercial and public service media of this at all. If you are living on another planet, of course. Anyway I didn't hear a peep from you about doing a feature at the time, though there were good articles on the newswire which were certainly not ignored in terms of reading or comments. I don't think the absence of a feature means that no-one's interested.

If you just have a political bone to pick then put it as a comment to the feature and feel free to call us imperialist-zionist-reformist-West Brit Trots with bells on top, see how well it adds to your case. If you have issues with the process of feature-making please propose features, suggest changes to the way that they are done, etc. ideally on the mailing list designed for that purpose not the NEWSwire.

Cheers.

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 16:46 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

John's comments' make me wonder how much
longer fake "liberals" and granola
crunching hippies posing as political
progressives will succeed in muking
up the efforts to change this world
(for the better).

p.s., john is correct; if your comments
or articles don't agree with the hippie
and pacifist mindset it will quickly be
removed from any IndyMedia website based
on some bullshit excuse. Yeah, it makes
me wonder exactly who is the foundation
for IndyMedia as a whole; IndyMedia is
supposedly a worldwide journalistic collective
of the masses that "rose" up spontaneously
overnight, in every nation, numerous countries,
cities and towns. This overnight apperance came
complete with extensive graphics, mailing lists',
telephone numbers, and IndyMedia HQ's in place; hmmm, I WONDER....

by Aidan Thu May 08, 2003 16:49

We're a CIA front, you're on to us...

yadda yadda yadda

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 16:51 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

LOOK OUT, HERE COMES Daithi!; you are
in trouble now john!
This is Independent Media john, independent
of the large capitalist news conglomerates'
that only represent WEALTH, how dare you try
to use freedom of speech here?!

by pat c Thu May 08, 2003 16:51

I handed over the Mossad funds to you yesterday. What have you been doing with the CIA funds?

Malfeasance!

by Daithi Thu May 08, 2003 16:52

Ah, sigmond is back. You should understand that Indymedia rose up spontaneously because of the CIA funding. They also set up the phone lines and enabled them to be tapped and recorded. The extensive graphics contain the symbols of the Illuminati, of course.

Or, you could choose to believe that the first Indymedia site was set up to cover the protests against the WTO in Seattle and activists who were there as well as those in other states and countries who viewed the site or had established networks with Seattle Indymedia peoples set up their own sites and the coordination between the various locations developed into a fairly coherent global decentralised network where local sites have a huge degree of autonomy (i.e. becoming an IMC site is fairly formal but no=one tells us, NYC, South Africa or whoever what to do on a day to day basis). Of course that's probably 'bullshit' too, cleverly planted to throw those who know the truth off the scent.

What do you think?

by Daithi Thu May 08, 2003 16:54

Pat, we're playing the stock market with the various funds from military intelligence (what an oxymoron...) trying to get a good exchange rate on the dollar. That's probably where the money is.

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 16:54 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

Nope, sorry Aidan, but you are close.
To be honest, I did a summer internship
with the CIA after my first year of
university. Therefore, I in no way believe
that IndyMedia is a CIA front; that's your
paranoid accusation. Aidan, WATCH OUT, Bigfoot
is sneaking up on you!

by links bollixed Thu May 08, 2003 16:54

Mostly hidden as crossposts:
http://www.topica.com/lists/imc-ireland-hidden/read

by Bertie Ahern - Fianna Fail Thu May 08, 2003 17:01 iloveyougimps at thanksforthevictory dot com

Phew!
Thank goodness for people like you. Just when it looks that things might get rough, you pull the self destruct plug on your own movement.

yee haaaaw!

Suckers.
I'll wave at you from my office window, as I laugh.

With enemies like you, who needs friends?

by links bollixed Thu May 08, 2003 17:04

So it is that thousands of plots in favor of the established order tangle and clash almost everywhere, as the overlap of secret networks and secret issues or activities grows ever more dense along with their rapid integration into every sector of economics, politics and culture. In all areas of social life the degree of intermingling in surveillance, disinformation and security activities gets greater and greater. The plot having thickened to the point where it is almost out in the open, each part of it now starts to interfere with, or worry, the others, for all these professional conspirators are spying on each other without really knowing why, are colliding by chance yet not identifying each other with any certainty. Who is observing whom? On whose behalf, apparently? And actually? The real influences remain hidden, and the ultimate aims can barely be suspected and almost never understood. So that while no one can be sure he is not being tricked or manipulated, it is rare for the string-puller to know he has succeeded. And in any case, to be on the winning side of manipulation does not mean that one has chosen the right strategic perspective. Tactical successes can thus lead great powers down dangerous roads.

Debord (Comments on SOTS)

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 17:05 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

It is shameful that the paranoid theories,
which are never mentioned in my posts, are
attributed to me because that is the only pathetic response to political criticism your minds can think of.
Most of, but not all of, IndyMedia cannot tolerate political criticism and it is
displayed clearly in the fact that comments
about the fantastical stories about "illuminati"
and payoffs to MOSSAD are attributed to my posts.

p.s., Daithi, how can I be back when I never departed? Unlike most "progressives" I don't hide my politics or my opinion. I use my actual name when I post and in my e-mail address; that's more than can be said for 99.99% of the people that posts on any IndyMedia site. As I freely stated a moment ago, I interned with the CIA after my first year of university. Why would I then accuse IndyMedia of being CIA when I spent four months interning (working) for the CIA; dummies.

by links bollixed Thu May 08, 2003 17:07

.

by IMC Thu May 08, 2003 17:09

Not suddenly all in the blink of an eye

by Bertie Ahern Thu May 08, 2003 17:12

When you guys would start fighting amongst yourselves as soon as ye got in the gate?

Thanks lads - you make me look GREAT!

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 17:24 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

I am not fighting with anyone "out
of the gate" bertie, but that does
not mean I am not going to discuss,
debate, and be politically critical;
if it is good enough for those who
oppress it is good enough for those
that seek to liberate.

by Phuq Hedd Thu May 08, 2003 17:27

what other things that are "good enough for those that oppress" would you like to adopt? How about disruption of debate with your troll comments? How about prisons? How about slavery?

Your comments are disruptive to the debate about the future of the Irish Anti War Movement because the have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

The central question is: how can the Irish Anti War Movement be improved? What mistakes were made?

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 17:49 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

firstly, I did not initiate this article thread that is causing so much debate; I simply commented on it.
secondly, it is political criticism that I am refering to when I stated "if it is good enough for those who oppress it is good enough for those that seek to liberate." My sole point is that no one is ABOVE political criticism.
thirdly, Phuq Hedd (I assume it's pronounced, fuck head), I friendly suggest that you go back and reread all of the previous posts' and you will discover that my "troll & disruptive comments of nothingness" are in good company; in that I have to spend my time debating for freedom of speech on an IndyMedia site, while you and your supporters' attribute political paronia to my comments (i.e., mossad & illuminati), get real.

by Phuq Hedd Thu May 08, 2003 19:06

QUOTE:firstly, I did not initiate this article thread that is causing so much debate; I simply commented on it.
ANSWER:never accused you of initiating anything except your own troll comments which detract from the debate out the IAWM.

QUOTE:secondly, it is political criticism that I am refering to when I stated "if it is good enough for those who oppress it is good enough for those that seek to liberate." My sole point is that no one is ABOVE political criticism.
ANSWER:no, you argued that if something is good enough for the oppressors then it's good enough for the oppressed. A stupid comment as I pointed out above.

QUOTE:thirdly, Phuq Hedd (I assume it's pronounced, fuck head),
ANSWER: ha ha. Very amusing "sig mond".

QUOTE:I friendly suggest that you go back and reread all of the previous posts' and you will discover that my "troll & disruptive comments of nothingness" are in good company;
ANSWER:Is that a corollary of your "good enough for oppressors" argument? Let me suggest an alternative, don't post raving bullshit.

QUOTE:in that I have to spend my time debating for freedom of speech on an IndyMedia site, while you and your supporters' attribute political paronia to my comments (i.e., mossad & illuminati), get real.
ANSWER:no, you don't. You could just shut up until you have something of value to contribute to the debate about the direction of the IAWM.

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 19:36 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

where exactly is the raving bullshit in my posts', hmmm?
Is it to be found in my responses' to nonsense
about a so-called "illuminati" or payoffs to the mossad; paranoria & allegations that are not to be found in my posts' now or ever. That's right, no one is above political criticism', you, me, IndyMedia, the ruling oppressors; no one!
Lastly, it is quite easy for american university students to do INTERNSHIP work for the CIA during our summer holidays'. All a university student in the states has to do is access the CIA website to learn how to apply for the program. As I previously posted, I have already completed this internship program and having done so, as I previously stated, this is why it is absurd to slander me with accusations that I believe IndyMedia is a CIA front; I know it is not.
Now, Phuq Hedd, what content in my posts' do you still find it difficult to understand?

"if it is good enough for those who oppress it is good enough for those that seek to liberate."

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 19:44 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

Well now, that's freedom of speech for you; right Phuq Hedd.
"You could just shut up, until you have something of value to contribute to the debate about the direction of the IAWM." Phuq Hedd, 8 May, 2003.

Obviously, that means I should not comment or speak unless I only repeat your statments and opinions; right Phuq Hedd? RIGHT ON, BROTHER!!!; POWER TO DIVERSITY!

by Brian O'Connor Thu May 08, 2003 19:54 SF, CA

We have a problem here in San Francisco with the Bay Area IMC: it seems that as soon as the site began to produce meaningful news and dialogue it was taken over by 'Nessie', a poor excuse for a gov't agent. He then began censoring posts and comments. That was the beginning of the end for the site as an 'independent' news source of and by the people.

Could this have happened to IMC-IRL as well? Has the opposition been able to penetrate the staff at this site as well and put in their own lackeys to further squash the rebelllion? U tell me.

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 20:12 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

I think your question should be addressed to
everyone. My question is sincere I am not trying
to be an asshole by asking.

by Phuq Hedd Thu May 08, 2003 20:19

QUOTE:All a university student in the states has to do is access the CIA website to learn how to apply for the program. As I previously posted, I have already completed this internship program and having done so, as I previously stated, this is why it is absurd to slander me with accusations that I believe IndyMedia is a CIA front; I know it is not.
ANSWER:Obviously CIA student-interns are given complete access to high-level operational details. I'm glad they cleared the Indymedia infiltration program with you though. The very evidence that you present (which I don't believe either) CAN'T allow you to make any statement about the CIA or indymedia.

QUOTE:Well now, that's freedom of speech for you; right Phuq Hedd.
"You could just shut up, until you have something of value to contribute to the debate about the direction of the IAWM." Phuq Hedd, 8 May, 2003.
Obviously, that means I should not comment or speak unless I only repeat your statments and opinions;
ANSWER: No, it means that Freedom of Speech carries responsibilities as well as rights. One of those responsibilities is not to disrupt other people's Freedom of Speech. All your bullshit about the CIA is disrupting a discussion about how indymedia.ie works, specifically w.r.t. an article about the Irish Anti War Movement. Your contributions are NEGATIVE.

QUOTE:right Phuq Hedd? RIGHT ON, BROTHER!!!; POWER TO DIVERSITY!
ANSWER:I'm no brother of yours. I'm disqualified both by sex and freedom of association.

Screwball #2 (Brian O'Connor wrote:)
QUOTE: Could this have happened to IMC-IRL as well? Has the opposition been able to penetrate the staff at this site as well and put in their own lackeys to further squash the rebelllion? U tell me.
ANSWER: This has been answered before: the Bavarian Illuminati have entered the third circle of power and the gatekeeper has shed his shoes.

by sigmond Thu May 08, 2003 20:42 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

I guess that you are an idiot also Brian (according to Phuq Hedd). Worse yet, we must be working together. To be honest, if you had to suffer working with me you would probably want to kill me.

p.s., Brian, you said nothing in your post that should have illicited a hostile remark; I guess you are not crazy after all.

Phuq Hedd, pornography & the illuminati is bad for your health; it weakens you and makes you paranoid.

Hugs & kisses, sigmond.

by Joe Fri May 09, 2003 14:23

Reposting these comments from Dominic from the original thread because it is so far back most people will miss them and they are pretty important in revealing the reality behind the IAWM.

One additional comment on the note Dominic ends on - how to turn the IAWM into a real irish Anti War Movement. I would seriously question if this is the way to go about the creation of such a movement or whether it simply would not be smarter to leave the IAWM behind and call a fouding conference open to any and all anti-war groups.

The problem with the IAWM was that it was built from above in the image of its maker. A real movement should be built from below (ie as a coming together of the diverse groups that already exist). In any case to reform something it has to have structures and procedures for these reform to come on. From the report of Aoifes comments below it is very clear these no more exist in the IAWM then they do in the parent SWP.

Amended Agenda for IAWM National Assembly Rejected
by Dominic Carroll - Clonakilty Against the War Thu, May 8 2003, 5:13pm
[email protected]

[This post to the newswire and the comments below it by Aidan and Daithi were moved by R Isible]

Did I put my alternative agenda to the IAWM? Yes. I sent an e-mail on Monday, the text of which I posted on Indymedia and the IAWM Website. I received no reply. Today, I phoned Aoife Ní Fhearghail, a member of the Steering Commitee. I was informed that the Steering Committee has met yesterday (Wednesday), and that my e-mail had been mentioned, but my amended agenda was not accepted. I was the only one that Aoife had spoken to (she spoke to the Tullamore, Mayo and Kildare groups) who had any problem with the agenda. Cork City, it seems, were confused about the timings but there will be plenty of time for discussion. In fact, lunch is to be truncated and more time allocated to the final session because of the need to report back from the workshops (this had been overlooked).

It seems that when I characterised the forthcoming National Assembly as a rally rather than a forum, I was right ? the IAWM has intentionally planned a rally. Apparently, my estimates regarding time allocations for speakers are way off ? each speaker will only get 7?10 minutes, so as to allow plenty of time for discussion.

Regarding SWP/SP/GP domination ? this criticism is rejected.

Though resolutions will be voted on this Saturday, I?m told that the Steering Committee won?t feel itself bound to implement them. Instead, ?we will do our best to prioritise resolutions?. I was informed that if, for instance, a resolution was passed calling on the IAWM to organise a boycott of US goods, or to organise a campaign in defence of the Shannon 6, this would not be considered a priority by the Steering Committee, and therefore not acted on.

As regards a conference, the the AGM will be held in September. At that conference, the Steering Committee will be up for re-election.

I explained to Aoife that several anti-war activists in this neck of the woods feel that the conference is not worth attending, for all the reasons I outlined in my initial statement and because we have been made to understand that it is nothing more ? nothing less ? than a rally. Nevertheless, we are concerned about the anomalous nature of the National Assembly: a rally with resolutions that aren?t binding. I informed Aoife that, on that basis, I won?t be attending. Instead, I will wait for the AGM in September. I was reminded that this would only be open to the 100 or so paid-up members of the IAWM.

In conclusion, my critique of the forthcoming IAWM National Assembly has been rejected in its entirety by the Steering Committee of the IAWM.

COMMENTS:

IMC
by Aidan Thu, May 8 2003, 5:41pm

Your thread was removed because it was a repeat posting of a previous thread, and you wanted to repost it because you were unhappy with the thread had degenerated.

While we sympathize, under our editorial guidelines, repeat posting are not allowed.

Final Point
by Dominic Carroll - Clonakilty Against the War Thu, May 8 2003, 11:38pm
[email protected]

I'm losing track of Indymedia. Earlier, I posted a story regarding the IAWM agenda for the National Assembly (see above, under 'Amended Agenda Rejected'. The new posting has since been deleted ? perhaps because I also added it as a comment to this thread, thus breaking a rule that I'm only slowly beginning to comprehend (something about duplication). I posted it as a new story as this thread is now so long and confused. However, the other version contained one final paragraph missing from the above version. This is it:

My critique of the forthcoming IAWM National Assembly has been rejected in its entirety by the Steering Committee of the IAWM. And ? call it an admission of defeat if you like ? I know that, at such short notice, there's not a chance of denting the cast-iron outer casing of any SWP-controlled campaign ? I was a member long enough.

However, I am still interested in being part of a democratic, broad-based anti-war movement. Turning the IAWM into such a movement will require time and planning. If you wish to join with me in a long-term campaign to build a broad-based anti-war movement in Ireland, please contact me.

add your comments

by Durutti Fri May 09, 2003 14:30

Ways to improve the IAWM,,,...

Ye know in the Czech Republic some Anarchists really believe in remembering Kronstadt. They do this by giving Trots and Leninists in general a good kicking. Not surprising when you consider that in the Trots minds, Czech was a Deformed Workers State for 45 years. And they want to drag people back to the Dictatorship Of The "Proletariat".

Now I am not suggesting we do this, but...

Ah just to dream of giving RBB, Aine Ni F, Little Lenin MacLoughlin, Michael O'Brien and the rest of them a sound trouncing.

by Andrew Fri May 09, 2003 14:42

Durruti I've met some of the Czech anarchists involved in this (back at the time of Prague S26) and argued with them about this. But in any case its not comparable with Ireland where we were never occupied by the Red Army.

Physical punch ups on the left are pretty much a disaster for all concerned - indeed here in particular we should need no reminder of where that sort of crazyness ends. How many left republicans here were put in the grave by other left republicans.

Leaving aside the negative consequences in terms of organisation its also a crazy strategy for any anarchist to argue. Historically we have rejected leninism percisly because in power and often in opposition it denies a voice to workers organisations and left organisations. Aping them would actually give the idea of leninism a victory!

by Disgusted Fri May 09, 2003 15:01

Nice to see Durrutti dreaming of beating up a woman. A real credit to Irish anarchism.

by Durutti Fri May 09, 2003 15:13

Andrew, I wasnt really serious, just tongue in cheek. They can be so pesky though.

Ah Disgusted and why not beat up a woman? I'm a woman, if I ever felt the Czech line was right I would go for Aoife of the sorrows.

by Daithi Fri May 09, 2003 15:26

Stop reposting comments! If one comment is important enough to be reposted then any comment is. Then you have a completely unreadable newswire. The article that you copied the comments from is one of the most read on the newswire because it's linked from the front page (one of the very very few articles directly featured and linked). Shouldn't that be enough? There are plenty of other articles that haven't been spotlighted like this and no-one feels the urge to bump them up the wire like that. It's unfair to hog public space like that.

by Josef Fri May 09, 2003 16:16

they've never deleted anything I've written, so I respect them for that.

by Old timer Fri May 09, 2003 16:17

Could tell you a story or two about Aoife's handling of e-mail messages and organisation. Stuff Joe Stalin would be proud of. But it's not her fault. She is a paid up stooge. She is desperate to keep her job. I'm sure she is the first to feel shitty when her paymasters (SWP) ask her to do the dirty work for them, but she has no choice. No point in waiting for the next AGM. Just leave the IAWM and do your own thing. There are plenty of decent people outthere you can network with.

by EL Lanse - www.himself.com Tue May 13, 2003 07:52 welltheyknowit at andhopetohackit dot com

It is good to see that now many others are realizing that 'Aidan' 'Daithi' 'by' and the like have taken over irishindy as censoring dictators - on the mere basis that they are dominant in the Israeli 'collective' that DICTATES what is retained on here and what isn't.

Whenever criticized they run out the pointless redherring strawman plaint,"But no one is PAYING US - so how can you complain?"

It MAY be true - that no one is paying you to censor all contra-Israeli stories from getting on here and then lying about that censorship - but so what? Who would want to pay you to censor and lie?

And as to reporting 'News'....? Puleeeezzze !! Who the hell reads your pablum mediocrities that you generally cull from others and put predjudicially on the Featured Article page? Any fool can do those things and you fools are doing them.

The People's NEWS in case you talentless dictating censors haven't noticed is on THE NEWSWIRE.....and it sure as hell doesn't come from you fops. It comes from those who CONTRIBUTE unique oppinion and news on here - and that definitely isn't you 3 tinhat censors.

by sigmond Wed May 14, 2003 14:49 sigmondd at hotmail dot com the putrid, rotting, and fecal dripping bowels known as the u.s.a.

YOU HIT IT DEAD CENTER, EL LANSE!

NOW, RUN TELL DAT', RUN TELL DAT',
daithi, aidan, phuq hedd (fuck head),
one in the same, whomever; the list of
legitimate detractors is long & varied (NOT!).

I guess jayson blair will soon be joining
the IrelandIndyMedia collective.