Al-Thawra is mourning its dead. - Report from Caoimhe Butterly

by iosaf ipsiphi O as if Sofia Thu May 22, 2003 11:53

this space was opened for an Irish women who is in Iraq. Most readers coming and commenting are neither Irish nor in Iraq. They are being redirected by a US/K computer.

as for reading that sad collection of texts, let me ask do you recommend reading
Leviathian by Hobbes in the un-abridged edition? That nasty little dry determinist text that every TCD philosophy students finishes by first term?

The Prince by Machiavelli in Italian? which do you recommend? the orginal dialect?

Animal Farm - 1984- by George Orwell.
oh really two books by Eric. how clever.

Wealth of Nations- Adam Smith.
the OUP world classics texts 2.99 pounds sterling. truly a classic.

On Liberty- John Stuart Mill
the same if I remember correctly.

Sameul 1 Samuel 2 * Kings 1 & Kings 2 - the Bible.
ooooo! the Bible.
how sweet, you read aramaic? hebrew? of courese you don't you use the standard bible study text books don't you. very clever.

Caoimhe Butterly is an Irish Peace activist and her work as such has brought her from being shot by Israeli soldiers to presently being in the islamic country of Iraq.

Welcome to Ireland indymedia.
=Cead Mile Failte!

you may be interested to know there are four other independent media groupings providing links to Bagdad.

by I Am Wed May 21, 2003 14:09

HEy Righteous Pragmatist, You left off every book by Ayn Rand. The problem is these Leftist jackyls would read we the living or Anthem and see it as a road map on how to control the masses.

by Righteous Pragmatist Wed May 21, 2003 11:09

Since you goddamed left wing bigots have only ever read two books in your lives and seem to think you got it all sorted- Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto, I PLEAD WITH YOU READ THE FOLLOWING:

Leviathian by Hobbes.

The Prince by Machiavelli.

Animal Farm - 1984- by George Orwell.

Wealth of Nations- Adam Smith.

On Liberty- John Stuart Mill

Sameul 1 Samuel 2 * Kings 1 & Kings 2 - the Bible.

All these books show the true pattern of how nations, peoples and individuals come to be the way they are and how if change is ever to come it must be agreed taking into account the logic of human nature.

There is no community but competing individuals.
Some are strong enough to get ahead by themselves, while others weak on their own combine out of mutual self interest. The suckers are those who are selfless, altruistic and have unqualified good will to their "fellows."
Communists and left wingers must wait in line like everyone else!

by iosaf ipsiphi o as if sofia - rescueteam Mon May 19, 2003 18:44 never josef

Hem obert un espai aqui per una amica.
Tá síse ansuíd.
Creidim go bhfuil a lán faidbh ansuíd.
Ara mateix no puc saber i vosaltres tampoc qué fan ni amb seus IMC ni amb l'estat on está amica Caoimhe.
saoranach na h-Eirinn.

So in my favourite languages I tell you as it is.
She's one of us, she's there, a lot of you are here because you were re-directed from a US/K computer.

...so why don't you start your own thread¿?

by I am Sat May 17, 2003 03:54

Anon, First off I am not Right wing. My maladjustment is I hat whiney little fucks like your self and this site keeps me from kicking my cat, because you are so much more fun to kick. If I was right wing I would have problems with Blacks Jews Homosexuals Forigners any non Christian folks as the case stands I have no problem with anybody until the Whine starts to pour. See you assholes spread it out into Left vs Right. It ain't, people like the people that come here to diseminate lies as much as the Corporate news out lets are Whores. I Started to come to Indymedia after the republican national convention because their coverage was so good and As a Dead Kennedys fan I checked it out on the good word of Jello Biafra who was pushing it but this as with Left wing Politics has been Hijacked by Socialist propadandists. Also My time is spent "profitably" I have a good job a family a house in the burbs all the things of the American dream. So guess what it's All Good to use the Vernaculay of Americas youth. now I dont know or care what Josef's Problem the last time I heard that name he was Doing experiments on Children in NAzi germany. so do not lump me in i'm just here to amuse myself. Just stop whining about how much it all sucks its boring. not to mention all the Anti American Bullshit. and the Anti Israel Bullshit it seems that the left has been taken over by people who all think that once someone is an underdog they are always right. Check the history on Israel and how much humanitarian aid flows out of the United States day in and day out by "Right Wing" Charities" It sikens me the likes of Pat robertson does more for Children in Africa or russia and so on. then Ralph Nader or Noam Chomsky ever has Left wing my ass. So ANON Fuck you very much you too are wrong. Were Left wing were liberals blah blah blah. True Liberals dont try to tell others how to live their lives that used to be the job of the Right wing.

by I Am Sat May 17, 2003 03:30

Hey Makhno, Shut up ya tool. Socialist asshole.
Who the fuck cares. Again should I care what some Unemployed Kaffe Drinking German thinks about my country. What he might stop buying Marlboros, or as long as The US continues to buy what ever shit the rest of this Cesspool you call humanity produces you will all continue to suck our balls.
Like the fucking whores you are. I love how you all sit in front of your expensive probably American made Computers and spout this shit about how righteous you all are. That you all have the Answer. I bet most of you are still sitting in moms basement. smoking cigarettes that you had to scrounge the sofa cushions to scrape enough scheckels or quaters or drakma together to buy them with.
I really wish you would all die. Yeah I said it Die you lousy fuckers. Man that feels good I just wish I could be the one to do it.
Militaristic thats a fucking joke when every JAck ass on this board thinks they are a Militant. What a fucking crock of 100% grade A bullshit.
My problem is I Hate everyone not just Assholes in turbins or the French cocksucker who throws down his weapon and allows the Nazis to overrun his country to the Jerk off who parks to fucking close to my car in a parking lot.
OHHHH booo hoooo we can save the worl if we all just get along things have gotten so bod whaaaaaa please help me. who the fuck are you kidding were peace loving Socialists and we care fuck you, you do not because if somebody asks you to please Extinguish your Smoke in a restaraunt its all hey im being harressed and I have this right or I will throw paint on someone for not agreeing with my view on fur or I will burn down a house because I do not agree with Sprawl or hey We will try to hurt a cop because hes trying to save the property of someone who does not adhere to your little view Thus showing just exactly the WHORE like nature of your existance. And for god sakes why don't Hippies shower and what the fuck is up with that stinky perfume it makes your fucking eyes water. Wash it off, maybe you need a gallon of paint sprayed on you just to kill the fucking smell.

by Bob Wed May 14, 2003 20:38 nelsonrobertw at hotmail dot com

Hey Glassman, beat me with the UN charter. That is about the only thing that document is good for. I prefer we rip it up. Castro and Kadafi on the UN human rights commision? Saddam on the disamament commission? The UN is hoplessly flawed. Did you know that france wants the UN to set up a rapid response team to go into the Congo? I guess that will be good military action.
Did you read about all the mass graves in Iraq. Are we to blame for those? It seems that Saddam was killing many times as many civilians as we ever did. Maybe it was a good thing to rid the world of that murderer.
By the way, did you guys complain when clinton dropped the monica bombs on Iraq, Sudan, and Afganistan? Probably not. Your motives are solely political. If President Bush was a democrat you would be supporting this war.
As a good capitalist conservative, I will be sending money to the GOP to reelect Bush. I will also be sending my tax break to beating democrats in the upcoming elections.

by rationalist Wed May 14, 2003 20:21

I couldn't resist this one... David St. Hubbins wrote:

"For those of you who don't know - Ramsey Clark was Attorney General for Lyndon B. Johnson's Administration. Hardly a typical opponent of the U.S.."

Pat Buchanan worked for three different administrations in the past. That doesn't make him any less marginal in the present. Try again.

by rationalist Wed May 14, 2003 19:54

Someone above said that he/she does not feel safer after the defeats of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Ba'athists in Iraq. Truth be told--neither do I. Yet. But wait a few years... there will be a couple of functioning democracies in the Middle East. One of the major root causes of terrorism (since we're all so interested in the causes, not the symptoms) is the lack of a voice most Arabs have in their own societies. They're frustrated with stagnant, corrupt regimes that hold them back from any social change. They see the U.S. as propping those ossified regimes up. Rightly so, I might add. Well, guess what... the equation just changed. Pretty soon (1 year, 2, 5, however long it is) there will be an inclusive democracy in the heart of the Middle East. In today's world of al-Jazeera, al-Arabiya, and the other Arab satellite channels, the word will spread. People will see that there is another way--and it works. The Arab autocracies won't be able to survive unless they reform. Otherwise, they will face powerful forces from within that will be too strong to withstand. And if these societies are given a voice, are given control of their own destinies, they will be far less likely to export their anger.

by glassman Wed May 14, 2003 05:51

in response to the (much) earlier comments about UN pussyfooting (i believe this was Josef speaking) around Saddam... the United States (under the advice of then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney) decided not to go after Saddam directly, but rather to incite a rebellion against him by the Shi'ites and Kurds after the first Gulf War. They failed to support these rebel factions militarily or economically, allowing them to be crushed by Saddam's troops. The entity with the best opportunity to oust Saddam - the UNITED STATES - turned down that opportunity because it would have been seen (and was seen, rightly, when it was carried out in 2003) as an illegitimate incursion on the sovereignty of the nation of Iraq. The US failed to "finish the job" and then spent 12 years accusing the UN and its supposed allies in "Old Europe" of having "anemic" foreign policies (in the words of Robert Kagan).

All these accusations are designed to further US interests in Iraq. We didn't get what we wanted out of the first Gulf War, and after that became apparent we pushed wholly unreasonable policies on (and in some cases through) the UN, helping to create a horrendous situation and "justify" the second war. Of COURSE Saddam diverted money from Oil for Food into rebuilding his military arsenal; he knew he was still a target. Regimes attempt to preserve themselves; this is their nature. Saddam was bad before the war, he was bad under the sanctions, and if he's still alive, he's still a jerk. But his evil and his abuses were only called into focus because they aided the US argument for war. There was no "pussyfooting" with Saddam; he was effectively contained, his army was decimated, his ambitions against his neighbors were stifled. The sanctions against him were unbelievably harsh, and the Iraqi people bore the brunt of this; when Saddam behaved as we knew he would, and the situation didn't improve, we accused him of being a tyrant and we went after him again.

if one more person accuses me of being a saddam apologist or a terrorist sympathizer for posing this argument i'm going to beat him to death with a hardcover copy of the UN charter. no more pussyfooting! read the treaties to which you are a signatory; this war was unconstitutional, illegal, and wrong.

by Jared Tue May 13, 2003 04:05

The United States had nothing to do with the coup that brought saddam to power. They did, however play a role in the iraq-iran war.

by xxdr_zombiexx - US Citizen, decent, non-GOP sort Mon May 12, 2003 22:38 xxdr_zombiexx at yahoo dot com

The total destruction of cultural history and legal records and documents is very very similar to the destruction of NAtive American socities and cultures in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

White colonial forces, particularlyu the 7th Cavalry, decimated natives and burnt their records and forced them onto reservations - an early version of ethnic cleansing.

The same can be expected for the iraqis.

White colonial forces want the oil wealth and the water, and are waging a scorched eath campaign - with Depleted Uranium, not just fire. Scorched, contaminated earth.

They are waiting on cholera and dysentary to kill a bunch more while the US keeps aid planes out. The American Officials have flown in French Pastry chefs while iraqis stave.

The people who post on here - and on the site I work for (www.marijuana.com) - who get all cranky an sh*tty about dissent from there spoon-fed propagnada mills can simply be ignored as either idiots or paid disinformation spreaders of the worst sort.

Real americans are appaled by what is being done "in our name". I will not be beating my chest, like Jay Garner thinks I shoud, to proclaim my pride at being "an american...until Bush and Cheney, and rumsfeld and the rest of the criminals are either depsoed or are in prison where they belong.

Hate Bush and the GOP - not "America".

by Makhno Mon May 12, 2003 21:21

"on another point that you are wrong on is caring whether other nations hate the US WHO THE FUCK CARES. I for one do not and neither do the majority of Americans. I hate to say this as a life long Democrat and a Liberal. But REAGAN WS RIGHT ITS NOT WHETHER THEY LIKE US BUT RESPECT US YOU LITTLE TOOL."

What you're supporting here is a foreign policy based almost solely on fear. Fearing something and respecting it are two different things in most peoples' minds. You see, any typical school yard bully can be feared. The problem with someone who relates to everyone else in a controlling manner, someone who seeks to keep others under his thumb through fear, is that it eventually backfires. It takes a little bit of time but eventually someone bigger comes along OR the little people wise up and say "Hey, if we work together we don't have to take this shit anymore!". Thus ends the reign of the school yard bully.

You, like many Americans, revel in the fact that no nation has grown more powerful than the U.S. at this point. In fact, it's unlikely that the womping the United States is in for will come militarily. It's likely to hit the United States in it's weak spot - the economy. You see, sure, the U.S. can win most any war. Fine. Most people will agree on that (we don't spend $350 billion a year for nothing, after all). Speaking from a purely militaristic standpoint it might NOT matter whose toes we step on. Economically speaking though, our entire system of trade is dependent upon other markets (specifically in Europe and Asia). Piss off enough people and the U.S. CAN (and at some point WILL) be knocked back to a second rate power. All the guns in the world won't mean shit when that day comes just as the military might of the Soviet Empire means nothing today as the economy of Russia and it's former satellite states lay in ruins. Your problem, I AM, is that you fail to look at this issue beyond that militaristic view. The world is a very big place. Take into account other sides before you blab on about how it doesn't matter who the United States pisses off.

by Makhno Mon May 12, 2003 21:09

Yes, the "leaders" of the world DID sanction the genocide. They share their guilt in this as well. What you're failing to understand though Josef, is that the United States drew up the sanctions. That the United States is WHY they were the "harshest sanctions in history". The blame DOES fall all around but a GOOD PORTION of it falls on the United States. Are you willing to step up to the plate and take *responsibility* for this fact or will you continue to try and weasel out of it?

Big protests erupted for many reasons. One is that the United States govt. lied and lied and lied about their true motivations. They continue to do so, actually. Believe it or not, some people don't enjoy being bullshitted by their so-called "leaders". Another reason is that THERE ARE OTHER WAYS to get rid of leaders. Strengthening the Iraqi people (instead of crippling them as we did) is a good way to do that. The U.S. didn't even bother attempting this one because the U.S. wants to decide who WILL rule Iraq. To leave it up to the Iraqis is too dangerous for U.S. policy planners. Why leave it up to the people of a country when we can sway things in our favor with a little bit of force? This has been policy throughout Central and South America for awhile now. Other reasons are that war KILLS LOTS of innocent people, the U.S. has shown it's credibility in the aspect of "regime change" already in incidents like Haiti, Guatemala, etc. etc.

The simple fact is...that the U.S. is motivated by a number of things. One of the things it ISN'T motivated by is COMPASSION. We were going in for the wrong reasons and everyone with half a brain knows it.

by Ajnabi Mon May 12, 2003 07:46

We, the other part of the world, that which is not part of Europe or north America are sick a tired of being imposed by your views, ideas, morals, democracy, culture bullshit. We are sick and tired of your games of regime building and regime changes, bringing democracy to us, we sick of being manipulated by a bunch of neo-imperialists, as we where when the British were running around doing the ‘white mans burden thing’. We are sick of the imperialistic USA, ‘Bush! We are not you burden, we don’t want you democracy, your free market economy, we are not your burden, you are a burden on us’.

by anon Mon May 12, 2003 04:47

josef, i am, other miscellaneous right-wing people who post to Indymedia:

I am just curious why you keep coming back to Indymedia. It seems like you could spend your time a lot more profitably elswhere if you were interested in getting right-wing news. But instead, you spend your time reading these leftist posts, and then throw a bunch of insults at all the Commie "faggots." Is it your hobby, or does it serve a purpose? I mean, if you wanted to convert us to your side, I can think of more effective ways to go about it. What's the fascination with Indymedia? Does it get under your skin or what? I just want to know -- why do you care so much about what we're saying, if we're all just a bunch of easily dismissed morons?

by I am Mon May 12, 2003 02:40

Jeff I forgot as for the maturity level of my posts I really am going for antagonistic. I am not trying to really argue with people here due to the fact that you can't argue with somebody who has a belief that they are absolutly right. But thank for noticing.
I AM. UBERDEVILS ADVOCATE
One more thing Check out the site gortbusters.com I think you may find it very interesting. a much more interesting group of people there than the Rabble that comes here.
more your speed I think.
CHEAP TRICK SAYS:
THANK YOU TOKYO AND GOOD NIGHT.
Insert very loud guitar chord here.

by just it Mon May 12, 2003 02:35 weaverman1 at hotmail dot com

my only hope is that all of you are doing something to change yourself in changing the world.
a buddhist said something about 'the more we complain, the more concrete slabs will be put on the earth. The less we complain, the more possibilities there will be of tilling the land and sowing seeds.'
get out and do something helpful. if you think the world is too violent, become less violent.
as for the weeds, who talk in full bravado but are nothing, i feel sorry for your condition. seek help.

by I am Mon May 12, 2003 02:34

Hey Jeff Go fuck your self also. I just come here to spew off at liberal assholes like yourself
Jeff when you get out of What was it appalachian U?
Boone North Carolina?
Wonderful call me when you have 20 plus years in the real world working for a living. Please I know about liberalisim and please do not try to compare the molly maguires to liberals. or the founding fathers remember little boy they like guns and knew how to use them. they also hated blacks indians jews shall I go on. the Founding fathers also used the word God alot now what is it I should know about liberalisim that it is the most immoral of all political philosphies. JEff try reading up on moral philosophy and do not patronize me you little pisher I have work boot older than you. no jeff go back and read the post what I said to that little whining bitch was find a way to solve the problems one at a time and this is not macho chest pounding. I love hearing how the world works from little commies like your self guess what it does not work that way. Also do not talk to me about terrorisim. I studued it under Samir Kasis a palastinian national in High School and I can tell you all this bullshit you are fed on this and other World worker parties and ANSWER and Ism web pages is Bull shit you, ya little punk know nothing about terrorisim. by the way I only come to this board to yell at leftists and socialists it stops me from running you over with my car when I see your little dead ins on my way home from work, And on another point that you are wrong on is caring whether other nations hate the US WHO THE FUCK CARES. I for one do not and neither do the majority of Americans. I hate to say this as a life long Democrat and a Liberal. But REAGAN WS RIGHT ITS NOT WHETHER THEY LIKE US BUT RESPECT US YOU LITTLE TOOL. Oh and as far as curbing the use of oil we could have done that years ago as im sure you already know Deisel fuel for cars can be made from renewable sources like peanut oil ann corn can be used for fuel why is it not used. I admire you going to school for chemistry I was never good at it in school I took the artist route and went for photography and Audio visual communications. man what a useless field. the only thing left to do with it is go work for CNN. Now if you really want to get into it with out my yelling and screaming like I said I do it here to rant and get the loose fragments shaken off my email is [email protected] sorry about the fuck off in the begining of this post. And I have to say that was a really well written post ya had there. though a little patronizing. ahhhhh good times.Ciao
Chris Carson

by jeff lauckhart Sun May 11, 2003 20:16

From the maturity level of your postings, I'm guessing you are still in high school. So, while you are there, I think you should make better use of your history text and learn a bit about liberalism and socialism. All of the rights you have as a citizen in the US are based upon liberal tenets. Much of the rights you have as an employee where brought about by socialist and labor movements in this and other countries.

As for whining, there is plenty of whining on the left and right of the political spectrum. There are, however, many of us who believe that in this day and age, violence, as a means of solving international conflicts, should be used as a very last resort. This wasn't even close to being the case in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Now, to appeal to your over masculine chestpounding: the real strength in a nation is not in beating up on poor, mostly defenseless nations, but by standing tall and actually trying to solve the problem of terrorism. Attacking countries that have been under attack for decades does nothing but further hatred of our nation. Real strength would have had us looking externally and internally for the causes of terrorist aggression and leading an international coalition of truly willing (not bribed) to hunt down the actual perpetrators.

As for me, I am studying renewable energy at appalachian state university. I hope to help this country out of the oil quagmire it is in by leading us in the direction of sustainable energy production.

What are you doing to better the situation I am? Yosef?

You don't need to use profanity in your reply, but I'm guessing you might.

-jeff lauckhart

by David St. Hubbins Sun May 11, 2003 15:32

For those of you who don't know - Ramsey Clark was Attorney General for Lyndon B. Johnson's Administration. Hardly a typical opponent of the U.S..

by John O'Reilly Sun May 11, 2003 14:10

The fact that you cannot see the evidence of genocide in the links provided does not surprise me. You cannot even get my name right. ;-)

Try reading around a little and see if your firmly expressed views still sit so comfortably.

by Josef Sat May 10, 2003 20:01

That was a pointless strategy. The reason so many Iraqis died due to sanctions was that the UN was too feeble to deal with a brutal dictatorlike him. Weh the US imposed harsh sanctions they didn't expect that after 12 years the Un would still have gotten nowhere.

It was impossible to ship many vital chemicals Iraq becuase of the danger they would be used in weapons.

Who is to blame???
UN, Saddam.

by I am - The Universe Sat May 10, 2003 17:58

Just wwanted to make sure Peter was a man I wouldnt want to speak to a woman that way so I hope peter is not a typo of petra or something. but then again If it is peter than again I apologize for speaking to a WOMAN that way ooooooooooooooooo I hurt I need help
wah wah wah wont someone please help me

by I am Sat May 10, 2003 17:55

Mr. Wills you sir are a sniveling simp.
There I said it, now what are you going to do about it. NOTHING! I bet. Oh I do not feel safer boo hooo won't somebody hold me. But being a new age "man" as you are, It surely wont bother you when I say this, SHUT UP FAG! Pull the thourn out of your pussy and try and figure out a constructive way to change your world. Boo Hoo tho world sucks people are mean to eachother Children get hurt my pussy hurts..... Blah blah blah. Puke smells better than the Shite you spew. Now go kindly fuck yourself Wuss.

by mel Sat May 10, 2003 17:15

Listen up you right wing facists -- Benjamin Franklin said "those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither."

It is really not worth much breath to enter this arguement, it seems to me the evidence has been presented, its pretty easy to read up on. The Bush Administration (SR) supported Hussein when "he gassed his own people." Now they throw that around like buzz words but they forget to mention that good old Donald Rumsfeld was over there when it happened. The US funded both sides of that war.

As for the sanctions, Ramsey Clark's book lays it out pretty well (yes you dumb f*cks, I said book, you should read one). The facts are the US targetted the infrastructure of Iraq during the 1991 war, destroyed water treatment plants, hospitals, electrical plants, etc. Iraq, prior to 1991 was one of the most modern countries in the Middle East. Afterwards, it was crippled.

Imagine waking up in your phat suburban home one morning without running water, or electricity. For twelve years they were not even allowed chlorine to purify the water. What happens to a dense population without water treatment facilities? Death by water bourne disease-- effecting mostly children under 5.

The US knew this and still for twleve years would not allow the basic parts needed to repair the infrastructure. Why? Because they didnt want Hussein in power. So what if a million and a half Iraqis, mostly children died.

We also left that country swaddled in depleted uranium from our weapons of mass destruction.

And now we've allowed the history of the oldest civilization to be erased. Come on! Bush is not doing any of this to help the Iraqis! Bush is doing this for oil and power and greed. To believe otherwise is to be either brainwashed by Fox News, or high on fruit loops.

Its a sad day for democracy when people are willing to hand over all their tax dollars to support a war without end, no questions asked, while the rest of our country is dismantled for a lack of funds (universities, hospitals, public health system) . And when those who do ask questions become the targets of idiot rage.

Unless more people ask questions, we wont have a democracy for long. 124 right wing apppointments to courts in two years, ya' all.

So listen up you dumb f*ck idiots who want to kill hippies: learn to read: IGNORANCE is the real threat to democracy, not hippies. Study history. The history of protest in this country goes back long before the hippies. Were it not for some left wing protestors in the 1880's you'd still be working for a dollar a day, 18 hours a day, in a dark mine somewhere.

Nothing was ever given to any of us.

And one final word to righteous pragmatist. You wouldnt know a CUNT from a hole in the ground. You floppy dick-penis head.

by I am Sat May 10, 2003 14:51

Whew you all have been too kind.

by I am Sat May 10, 2003 14:49

Tham you very much GOODNIGHT. thats why I only do one show a night. I love you all show business is my life.I am has left the building. Dont forget to tip you bartenders and lets have a big hand for those cocktail waitresses they have been great.

by I am - Here and there Sat May 10, 2003 14:45

I can only say one thing about afghanastan iraq and september 11th, how did we miss all the leftist complaining hippies? I will bet dollars to donuts that there have been less than 10 of these assholes killed why were they not marching or protesting at the wtc on september 11 it seems to me that on this board there are alot of conspirocy theorys going around. what happend did the indy media web site tell all the hippies to stay home that day? I wonder also if the people who were seen dancing in the park in new jersey that day were not really some dirty smelly hippies having their circle jerk oh sorry i mean drum circle. NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU USLESS PIECES OF SHIT, At least Ariel Sharon has the right Idea. Another thing you fucking assholes better remember your patron saint dirty hippie number 1 rachel corrie who I might add is being systamaticly sodomized in hell quite possibly as one of the virgins for mohammed atta died trying to protect the home of a man who just a week earlier was involved in killing a 14 year old american girl in israel. The only good socialist, hippie, anarchist is a dead one. god I want to k_LL YOU ALL AND DO IT WITH MY BARE HAND AS I LOOK AT YOUR BLOOD IN THE MOONLIGHT, I TRULY HOPW GOD RAINS DOWN A BIG CASE OF AIDS TO ALL LEFT WING SOCIALIST ASSHOLE. TRY READING ANTHEM OR ATLAS SHRUGGED SOME TIME. PS. MAY ALL OF THE THE DISEASED WHORES THAT GAVE BIRTH TO ALL OF YOU WHINING COMPLAINING COCKSUCKESR ROT IN HELL AND THAT YOUR FATHERS BE SLASHED WITH A MILLION RAZORS AND DIPPED IN ALCOHOL. have a nice day. :} xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

by I am - Here and there Sat May 10, 2003 14:45

I can only say one thing about afghanastan iraq and september 11th, how did we miss all the leftist complaining hippies? I will bet dollars to donuts that there have been less than 10 of these assholes killed why were they not marching or protesting at the wtc on september 11 it seems to me that on this board there are alot of conspirocy theorys going around. what happend did the indy media web site tell all the hippies to stay home that day? I wonder also if the people who were seen dancing in the park in new jersey that day were not really some dirty smelly hippies having their circle jerk oh sorry i mean drum circle. NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU USLESS PIECES OF SHIT, At least Ariel Sharon has the right Idea. Another thing you fucking assholes better remember your patron saint dirty hippie number 1 rachel corrie who I might add is being systamaticly sodomized in hell quite possibly as one of the virgins for mohammed atta died trying to protect the home of a man who just a week earlier was involved in killing a 14 year old american girl in israel. The only good socialist, hippie, anarchist is a dead one. god I want to k_LL YOU ALL AND DO IT WITH MY BARE HAND AS I LOOK AT YOUR BLOOD IN THE MOONLIGHT, I TRULY HOPW GOD RAINS DOWN A BIG CASE OF AIDS TO ALL LEFT WING SOCIALIST ASSHOLE. TRY READING ANTHEM OR ATLAS SHRUGGED SOME TIME. PS. MAY ALL OF THE THE DISEASED WHORES THAT GAVE BIRTH TO ALL OF YOU WHINING COMPLAINING COCKSUCKESR ROT IN HELL AND THAT YOUR FATHERS BE SLASHED WITH A MILLION RAZORS AND DIPPED IN ALCOHOL.

by I am - Here and there Sat May 10, 2003 14:45

I can only say one thing about afghanastan iraq and september 11th, how did we miss all the leftist complaining hippies? I will bet dollars to donuts that there have been less than 10 of these assholes killed why were they not marching or protesting at the wtc on september 11 it seems to me that on this board there are alot of conspirocy theorys going around. what happend did the indy media web site tell all the hippies to stay home that day? I wonder also if the people who were seen dancing in the park in new jersey that day were not really some dirty smelly hippies having their circle jerk oh sorry i mean drum circle. NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU USLESS PIECES OF SHIT, At least Ariel Sharon has the right Idea. Another thing you fucking assholes better remember your patron saint dirty hippie number 1 rachel corrie who I might add is being systamaticly sodomized in hell quite possibly as one of the virgins for mohammed atta died trying to protect the home of a man who just a week earlier was involved in killing a 14 year old american girl in israel. The only good socialist, hippie, anarchist is a dead one. god I want to k_LL YOU ALL AND DO IT WITH MY BARE HAND AS I LOOK AT YOUR BLOOD IN THE MOONLIGHT, I TRULY HOPW GOD RAINS DOWN A BIG CASE OF AIDS TO ALL LEFT WING SOCIALIST ASSHOLE. TRY READING ANTHEM OR ATLAS SHRUGGED SOME TIME. PS. MAY ALL OF THE THE DISEASED WHORES THAT GAVE BIRTH TO ALL OF YOU WHINING COMPLAINING COCKSUCKESR ROT IN HELL AND THAT YOUR FATHERS BE SLASHED WITH A MILLION RAZORS AND DIPPED IN ALCOHOL.

by Captain Doughfish Sat May 10, 2003 00:32

The UN repeatedly tried to lift the embargo on water treatment chemicals. The US said no. They tried to lift the embargo on many medicines, the U.S. said no.
Therefore, the US should be singled out for these crimes. The UN only wanted to "contain" Saddam, not destroy the people.

by Josef Fri May 09, 2003 22:53

People here are trying to single out the US as the sole cause of the deaths from sactions when the real culprits were Saddam and the ineptitude of the UN handling of the weapons inspections.

by Peter Wills Fri May 09, 2003 22:15

...that the sanctions against Iraq have lead to the deaths of over 1.5 million children since 1991. But the majority of the american public is mislead by its leaders do care not for the suffering of those abroad...until, that is, it can use their suffering as a political tool for their power interests.

by Peter Wills Fri May 09, 2003 22:12

As an american, I don't feel one bit safer on account of the fact that Saddam has been removed. In fact, what has been stirred within Iraq is anti-west resentment, what has been fanned are the flames of hatred within the middle east. To think that by taking out Saddam has eliminated the potential terrorist threat is not only arrogant, it is also naive. I am actually more afraid now that something could potentially happen here because someone wants revenge, revenge which will take the form of an act of mass violence. It is an expression of ideology, of narrow-mindedness, that we have achieved anything close to victory in Iraq. What is left of Iraq? Three enthnic groups, the Kurds, the Shi'ites, and the Sunnis (possible spelling errors there, sorry). Each group has their own interests, neither wants the other to gain political power, and what is most likely to happen is that the Shi'ites, a fundamentalist Muslim group, will take power if they can find the chance, as they are the majority. And each and every group hates america. We simply made things worse by ignoring Iraq sovereignty. George Bush is providing us with an opportunity to fullfil the ancient Chinese curse which states something to the extent of: May you live in interesting times! Well, these are interesting times--for sure--and my sympathies rest with not only those in Iraq who have had their limbs blown off and who have had to see their loved one's riddled by machine gun fire right before their eyes; they also rest with anyone who cares about peace and a world where we do not have to live in fear. And no, I have no love for Saddam, but I do know that things in Iraq have become much less stable and on account of this, Iraq is becomming among the world's most dangerous places.

by Josef Fri May 09, 2003 21:17

It seems the whole world stood by and blessed this so called genocide. However, some people will try to pin the blame on the US for the entire fiasco. Not so, my friend.

So, if you can see that there was no way the sanctions could shift Saddam then why the big protest about a war to remove him, bringing about an end to sanctions and actually saving more lives than years more UN sponsored murder?

The leftist anti-war argument doesn't stack up any which way.

by Makhno Fri May 09, 2003 20:54

"You just don't see the cause and effect. Nobody envisaged it would take 12 years to disarm scumbag Saddam and that the UN inspectorate would be so inept. And as for sanctions, the UN was fully behind them for 12 years. And don't turn around and say ther UN is just a vehicle for the US cos that wasn't the case just recently, now was it?"

The last thing America needs is another APOLOGIST for the State. Let's be honest here, America knew a long fuckin' time ago that the sanctions weren't doing a damned thing to harm Hussein himself and that the brunt of the suffering was directed towards the people of Iraq. It's not as if our "leaders" just found out NOW, you know. You can make up all the excuses you like (on behalf of Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II) - they knew the effects these sanctions were having, or dare I say were DESIGNED to have. After all, the goal of the sanctions (which have been described as "the harshest in history") was to cause upheaval within Iraq - thus causing the overthrow of Saddam Hussein from within. How? Massive poverty. Lack of drinking water (the U.S. blowing up water treatment facilities during the Gulf War helped that along nicely). Those things happened but the upheaval did not. End result - hundreds of thousands dead from treatable illnesses, many of them children. God Bless America, right? Phhh....

by Makhno - 5-4-C Fri May 09, 2003 20:46 Scaybeeez at aol dot com

"Coaimhe Butterly should get her priorities in order.
Do FUCKING IDIOTS think for one goddam second that America is going to allow a CUNT like Saddam Hussein dictate to them?

On 911 America was attacked by terrorists who killed thousands of innocent people. Whether Saddam had anything to do with it is NOT the issue! The FACT is that America was caught with its pants down and that nation as a whole has decided this will not happen again!
The likes of Saddam Hussein did not hesitate to kill torture and rape thousands of his own people, attack Iran, invade Kuwait, fire missiles against Israel and Saudi Arabia while training and funding Islamic terrorists like Hezbollah, Abu Nidal and the PLO. It was only a matter of time before this BASTARD supplied the weapons of mass destruction he possessed to AL-Quaida. THEIR COMMON ENEMY was the USA and the entire Western World including Ireland!
Hand wringers, Cowards and imbeciles would have the powers that be sit on our hands and wait for for another 911 to spring upon us?
NO FUCKING WAY!"

**************************************************

I had to break to it ya, little friend, but 9-11 does not automatically excuse any act of aggression the United States is currently taking part in or WILL take part in in the near future. Germany suffered terrorist attacks prior to WWII. Didn't justify Hitler's aggression. You cry over 9-11. Fine. Dandy. But the simple fact is that INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT ***WHY*** WE WERE ATTACKED and fighting the ***DISEASE*** YOU and YOUR ILK (FOX "News", for one) choose to target the SYMPTOM. It makes you feel tough. It makes America LOOK strong (though only on the surface). America can kill all kinds of folks, sure, that's easy. We specialize in murder. We have the most technologically advanced military on the planet, after all. What America is UNABLE to do is confront the issue of terrorist HEAD-ON. Why is America THE main target? Why are we hated? Why America and not Switzerland or anybody else? You choose not to think about these things. I'm not surprised. It makes your brain hurt. It's a lot to sort through. If you're SERIOUS about dramatically increasing anti-U.S. terror you WOULD look at these things though. You'd ask yourself why America needs over 200 military bases scattered around the globe. You'd ask why America has a long history of backing dictators and death squads. You'd ask yourself the obvious question - "WHY IS IT THAT EVERYONE WE'VE FOUGHT THUS FAR IN THE "WAR ON TERROR" IS A FORMER ALLY (Taliban, bin Laden, Saddam Hussein) ?!?!?". You haven't asked yourself these questions because, to put it bluntly, you don't care. You think about what Bush TELLS you to think about and anything past that is a big fat liberal conspiracy. How many 9-11s will it TAKE for you to wake up? Is your worship of the State truly THAT powerful?

by Josef Fri May 09, 2003 20:17

You just don't see the cause and effect. Nobody envisaged it would take 12 years to disarm scumbag Saddam and that the UN inspectorate would be so inept. And as for sanctions, the UN was fully behind them for 12 years. And don't turn around and say ther UN is just a vehicle for the US cos that wasn't the case just recently, now was it?

by noncogito42 - [email protected] Fri May 09, 2003 20:13

It is poetic irony at its best when the oldest known records/artifacts of civilization were stolen,lost, and/or destroyed when the museum was looted and the US troops are under very legitamite suspicion of starting it.I also find it interesting that instead of making sure that the hospitals were protected from riot damage or looting some the troops were guarding the precious, precious oil wells.

by Radmanx - Natural Philosophers International Fri May 09, 2003 20:12 radmanx at thefourreasons dot org

Taking a look at the issues presented here from the broader perspective of the neocon's from the Project for the New American Century and The Heritage Foundation who run our country, it seems plausible that the destabilization of the middle east is the one of the goals of the current administration. As two former UN Assistant Secretart Generals said, the US led santions on Iraq were a genocide. Iraq is the second in a long series of "multiple theater wars" looming from the Bush Administraton- Afghanistan being the first. Along with the perpetual war on terrorism for the perpetual peace program, there are strangely bizarre ties between entities like Haliburton, Unocal, the Carlyle Group, and some terrorist organizations, as well as Israel's right wing Likud Party. The destruction of Iraq's history is part of a plan to seriously insult Islam. How is it possible that a bunch of war criminals who run the country and are destroying the constitution and bill of rights are going to bring western democracy to an Islamic culture.

check out www.thefourreasons.org for info on the Bush Admnistration and our government.

by Kaliban Fri May 09, 2003 19:50

Michael Ledeen has termed "creative destruction" in his latest book, The War Against the Terror Masters:

Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity, which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. We must destroy them to advance our historic mission.

by Captain Doughfish Fri May 09, 2003 18:20

This is genocide:

http://www.progressive.org/0901/nagy0901.html

If Saddam did this, Josef would be pounding his chest and pointing the finger. Or if any "towelhead" did it for that matter. But, because America did it, it was "necessary to protect freedom".

by Irving da Naile Fri May 09, 2003 16:27

Josef and "Righteous Pragmatist", you are the American equivalents of the Baathist fascists and Dubya is your fuhrer. Fuck off and die!

by demothesse Fri May 09, 2003 15:32

you two couldnt be more right on. in about 25 years everyone that has jumped on the "lets be hip and protest everything that makes common sense" bandwaggon will regret it and look like complete baffons...somewhat like the vietnam war protesters. but you guys keeping fighting the good fight, and continue with me to be a constant thorn in these moron's side...they say our brave military men and women will one day pay for their "crimes" in iraq but i think we all know who is really going to pay once these people stop using the banner of extremist liberalism and socialism to excuse their lack of morals.

you two stay well and strong and dont give up.

by Josef Fri May 09, 2003 11:44

I've read your links and I see nothing in them that suggest the US or the UN is guilty of genocide. If anyone is guilty of Genocide it's you know who.

Geddit?

by Josef Fri May 09, 2003 11:35

Nice one, Righteous Pragmatist.
These clowns are so decadent that they don't appreciate the freedoms they have and would rather side with a "cunt" like Saddam because it hip and they'd be "down woth Chomsky". What an unworthy bunch of ungrateful brats. Thankg God there's still people willing to defend our freedoms.

by Righteous Pragmatist Thu May 08, 2003 17:41

Coaimhe Butterly should get her priorities in order.
Do FUCKING IDIOTS think for one goddam second that America is going to allow a CUNT like Saddam Hussein dictate to them?

On 911 America was attacked by terrorists who killed thousands of innocent people. Whether Saddam had anything to do with it is NOT the issue! The FACT is that America was caught with its pants down and that nation as a whole has decided this will not happen again!
The likes of Saddam Hussein did not hesitate to kill torture and rape thousands of his own people, attack Iran, invade Kuwait, fire missiles against Israel and Saudi Arabia while training and funding Islamic terrorists like Hezbollah, Abu Nidal and the PLO. It was only a matter of time before this BASTARD supplied the weapons of mass destruction he possessed to AL-Quaida. THEIR COMMON ENEMY was the USA and the entire Western World including Ireland!
Hand wringers, Cowards and imbeciles would have the powers that be sit on our hands and wait for for another 911 to spring upon us?
NO FUCKING WAY!
The very people the Islamic fundementalists, fanatics and dictators hate the most are left wing liberals like yourselves! You should count yourself lucky that a hero such as George W. Bush had the courage to make the hard decision and eliminate Fuckers like the Taliban and The BA'ath Party!

by kokomero Thu May 08, 2003 13:06

An interesting Red Cross report on the news this morning described how Cholera is now a major problem in Basra and southern Iraq inspite of US/K claims that water and electricity have been restored and that aid is flowing into Iraq.

This goes to further demonstrate (after the criminal medical sanctions regieme), if proof were required (and people like Josef and Irish American opened their eyes and ears), that the US/K occupation forces don't give a damn about the Iraqi people.

They will pay for their arrogance.

by John O'Reilly Thu May 08, 2003 12:37

Here are some interesting links from znet regarding the sanctions that were imposed on Iraq and their consequences:

http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/sanctions.htm
http://www.zmag.org/vonsponek.htm
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2394

Some posters would do well to study these links carefully before launching into the invective above. To accuse someone opposing such human suffering as "anti-American" is ludicrous. What does "anti-American" mean anyway? It smacks of the type of terminology used in totalitarian states. If one criticises the Irish government in an informed manner is one "anti-Irish"? Anyone I know would find such an assertion laughable and yet it is a typical tactic of those who seek to deflect any debate by name calling.

There are Americans that have been opposed to the sanctions such as former Attorney General of the United States of America Ramsey Clark who stated in a letter calling for an end to the sanctions addressed to the members of the UNSC on 26 January 2000:-

“[The number of deaths caused by the sanctions] must shock the conscience of every sentient human being.”

Is he a "self-hating American"? lol From the third link above:

It is notable and significant that Denis Halliday, a former United Nations Humanitarian Co-ordinater in Baghdad, resigned in October 1998 in protest over the effect of the sanctions on the civilian population. He now campaigns for the lifting of the sanctions. His replacement was Hans van Sponeck, who has in turn recently resigned after speaking out strongly against the sanctions.

There can be a high level of confidence that both Halliday and Van Sponeck sought to persuade the UN by reference to the facts to lift the blockade/sanctions regime before taking the extreme step of resigning. In early February 2000, Mr Van Sponeck gave an interview to CNN television wherein he stated:

“As a UN official, I should not be expected to be silent to that which I recognise as a true human tragedy which need to be ended ….. how long the civilian population which is totally innocent in all this, should be exposed to such punishment for something they have never done?…. the very title that I hold as a humanitarian co-ordinator suggests that I can not be silent over that which we see here ourselves ….. [the oil for food programme does not] guarantee the minimum of that a human being requires which is clearly defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”

All of this should give at the very least pause to those who think US policy in the region has been for the best both in intent and outcome but you seem determined to stick both fingers in your ears and scream "nah nah can't hear you!" It's just too silly.

by Josef Wed May 07, 2003 23:02

So, the war to remove Saddam was wrong then? You can't have it both ways Phuq Hedd. Sanctions were there to prevent chemical weapons being made, yes people died as a result but they were put in place because of Saddam. Then, you geniuses PROTEST when a move is made to end the cause of these sanctions. A regime change which had the overwhelming support of the Iraqi people themselves. You anti-US/socialist/hippies really called it wrong that time.

You completely igonre the Cold War context when you mention the US put Saddam in place. Maybe it's you who needs to think outside your brainwashed peer group.

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 07, 2003 22:33

The US helped Saddam to power and helped him stay there. Then they (along with the rest of the criminal UN administration -- who are only allowed to exist when they do the imperialists dirty work) killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in an attempt to make them revolt against the "regime".

Yes Saddam played his part, but he couldn't have done it without the US and all the little people like you.

And all the time they support similar regimes around the world (as Iosaf points out) as long as the oil keeps flowing.

by Josef Wed May 07, 2003 21:48

He's the reasonthe UN voted to impose sanctions. remember? the US is only one vote in the UN.

Geddit?

by iosaf-ipsiphi-O as-if Wed May 07, 2003 21:02

well done Caoimhe.
& well done Venus too, for her peace tree, ribbons and that sweet comment to the assembly on Police violence back in February BCN or was it March?

Meanwhile Josef gets up everyone's noses and has missed the point that the material accrued by rulers is always at odds with the needs of the ruled.

He may point to gold taps and expensive palaces built by the then CIA proxy Saddam in Iraq, I would point to the pointless perks given to all "rulers" whilst their people starve.

Meat on ·their· table.

meanwhile, for those of you truly interested in Oil do tell, why is Nigeria subject to more news blanketing than Iraq?

or perhaps you wait to be told by the Guardian newspaper? or maybe you will get hot and bothered when it finally reaches a select Commons comitee in London say oh, 7 years from now?

by barry Wed May 07, 2003 20:44

Sadly this genocidal nonsense about the sanctions regime will probably never be put to bed amongst those who are skeptical about the mainstream media.

After all if you've spent months or years bemoaning the fact that illegal oil sales to US companies were funding extravagent palaces and sports car collections whilst children died because water purificaction equipment and basic medicines were illegal, then a FOX breaking news report on the discovery of such wealth is probably going to miss you, assuming you weren't so shocked by pictures of friendly marines helping looters load up their trucks, or awed by the worlds most obsessive compulsive information gatherers allowing 'secret files' to blow on the wind that you failed to recognise this as the offical justification of the war now that no-one seems to be able to find all those underground weapons labs.

I think what's needed is an article exposing the truth about the sanctions regime and the conspiracy between Saddam and the worlds liberal elite to blame the US for leaving Saddam in power as a credible threat requiring the presence of US troops in Saudia Arabia until a popular backlash forced a move onto the next phase of the Kissanger/New American Century blueprint for the middle east.

Josef, Are you the man to set the record straight?

by Irish American Wed May 07, 2003 19:39

I thought the "genocidal sanctions" nonsense had been put to bed by the reality of Saddam's many opulent palaces, the weapons bought and the hundreds of millions dollars and euros -- in cash.

Josef gets it right.

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 07, 2003 19:06

Try not eating them Josef. You'll appreciate this good advice in about 10 years although some damage has obviously been done already.

by No 6 Wed May 07, 2003 19:04

It really is that simple honest.

Would you like some colours to paint with, or are you happy with just the black and white?

by Josef Wed May 07, 2003 18:47

You inocrrectly blame the US for the sanctions then you protest when the US removes the cause of the sanctions.

You're a bunch of idiots.

by Venus Wed May 07, 2003 18:08

It is great to have some truths coming first hand from Iraq. Thanks for this Caoimhe. It is such a shame it has to be another occupation story. See you soon.

by iosaf-ipsiphi-oasif - never Josef. Wed May 07, 2003 16:16

but I must point out that as originator of the term "US/K" it has been misused above.
US/K does not mean US/UK and never did.
US/K means something else. There were t-shirts, the offer of a book deal, some quality webpages and never oh never the hint of a cream pie in my face for it.
If you use it, use it properly, or else just write US/K otherwise you confuse people who know what it means.
:-)
meanwhile if any of ye, "experts" and arseologists can get info from Nigeria then do so.
like "help-out".
or if you prefer to just "nibble the titbits of others" then go look at link.

by Jeff Goldblum Wed May 07, 2003 15:03

Well according to Dennis Halliday & Hans Von Sponeck - the sanctions imposed on Iraq do fit the UNs own definition of genocide.

Saddam it's said pocketed upto $2bn per annum through sanction busting (selling oil illegally) - the Oil-For-Food was in itself fairly sound. The money earned went to a UN bank account.

Btw, the US held back $5.6bn worth of aid that Iraq had paid for. Why?. Draw your own conclusions. And for those of you who think it's Saddam Husseins fault Iraqi society was in the shits - why did the US ban morphine, paracetemol, wheelbarrows, pencils, cancer drugs, chemotherapy equipment, water-purificatio equipment?.

To say it's Saddams fault for not importing goods he was not allowed and not able to import is Orwellian.

by kokomero Wed May 07, 2003 14:43

Saddam spent the Food for Oil money on himself and his cronies and the US/K stood by and let him. Those are the facts, why don't you stick to them!

by GI Joe Wed May 07, 2003 14:35

Saddam spent the Food for Oil money on himself and his cronies. You and your fellow travelers have those childrens blood on your hands.

by Joe Sheehan Wed May 07, 2003 14:17

Interesting article in the Guardian about what Iraqis feel about theimposition of General Garner as the new Military leader, that's a tyrant isn't it?

by fisk report Wed May 07, 2003 12:29

http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk05062003.html

by kittykat Wed May 07, 2003 11:47

I think with a little investigation Josef, you will see that efforts made by individual nations within the UN, and the UN at large, to resolve the disastrous Iraqi ‘situation’ were, over the years systematically brutally undermined and thwarted
The US administration has humiliated and defied the UN as many times as any ‘rogue state’. Saddam was a brutal dictator, there is no debate over whether or not he should have power. The sanctions killed thousands of people. that’s genocidal.

by kokomero Wed May 07, 2003 10:22

Contrary to what Josef says it is both right and legitimate that there is opposition to and debate about US foreign policy which affects us all whether we like it or not. If there is bias on display Josef it is evident in your strident and amoral defence of all things American!

What did the hundreds of thousands die of in the past few years Josef? TLC? Don't try to lumber Saddam with all of the blame for this as the Americans were more than willing to "contain" Saddam via sanctions while it suited them.

The sanctions also "worked" as there is no evidence of WMD in Iraq even though the US/K do not acknowledge it (except for reports in the Glasgow Herald this weekend), the unfortunate side-effect however was a massive death-toll among innocent civilians, predominantly children, the old and the sick.

Surely it is possible to police the international arms trade with something other than the blunt instrument of sanctions or worse still war? The military equivalent of sanctions being carpet bombing the whole population rather than precision targeting of weapons consumers and suppliers.

Don't forget that this was done for decades successfully under Cocom regulations during the cold war, when the same smugglers and front-companies were in operation!

by Josef Wed May 07, 2003 09:15

Which is good, but lots of "many Iraqis believe [what I think]......

Genocidial sanctions eh? Well thank the UN for pussyfooting around with Saddam for 12 years. There's no US genocide involved here. Yet another casual slippage from truth - a dangerous path for anyone to tread.

by Irish American Tue May 06, 2003 23:02

Interesting and informative