The Cases of the Shannon 6 - A Public Meeting Tues. 29th. April

by Danny Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:42

Where do the Catholic Workers stand on observance of the catholic faith?

Do you go to mass every week as part of your activities. If so what do you think of the priests being very conservative in their sermons?

Where do you stand on the issues of contraception? women priests? divorce? abortion? Is it true you've worked with Youth Defence?

I'm not some crank or 'cop', I'm genuinelyt interested in what you geuys believe in.

by Deirdre Clancy - Catholic Worker Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:53 deirdreclancy at hotmail dot com

And it's understandable, given the conservatism of the Irish Church that the CW confuses you a bit, but I don't think it should be constantly clogging up the newswire. You obviously have net access, so why not check out www.catholicworker.org.
The CW is relatively new to Ireland, so the idea that it has worked with Youth Defence is ridiculous. Get your facts right before you speculate. Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin, the movement's founders, were committed Catholics who nevertheless often radically challenged the institutional Church. There's no contradiction here - Church history is full of this sort of thing. Maurin's personalist long-term vision, which influenced Day, included (among other things) ownership by workers of the means of production and the revival of skilled work to replace the depersonalisation of the assembly line. The anti-war stance is part of a wider critique of capitalism/the military-industrial complex and its creation of a social underclass, hence the combination of resistance/hospitality communities. All of this was integal to their understanding of Catholicism, in that they sought to create communities which embodied the Church's preferential option for the poor (even if the Church didn't always embody this).
“We must stand opposed to the use of force … We are not talking of passive resistance. Love and prayer are not passive, but a most active, glowing force.” Dorothy Day.

Now, go and do your own research!

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Sat Apr 26, 2003 12:45

Danny,

Organise a forum at your uni or in your community and some of us will come out and explore your questions.

In the meantime check out www.catholicworker.org
get "Entertaining Angels" out of your video store ( a cheesey bio of CW founder Dorothy Day).

The question is not where the CW stands on the Nuremburg Principles, it's where the U.S. (who dreamed them up and executed German judges, cops and citizens retrospectively for "following orders") and it's ally the Irish Government stand on them in relation to the charges against the 6 of us. (If you get the time rent "Last Trial at Nuremburg" with Spencer Tracey great movie made beofre Reagan et.al. purged Hollywood)

by Whaaa...? Sat Apr 26, 2003 15:23

Is this the same guy who spouted all the violence crap about March 1st? If it is what's his position now? And what's he doing supporting people who attacked warplanes?

Best wishes to all the Shannon accused, the approved and unapproved.

by Eoin Dubsky Sat Apr 26, 2003 16:09

Ed Horgan will be in Court 16, the Four Courts, on Monday morning at 10:30 for the verdict of his High Court action on Ireland/Iraq.

Jenny and Martin will appear briefly in Shannon District Court on May 6th (I believe?) for a pre-trial formality relating to their Good Friday action at the airport. My appeal will be heard in the Circuit Court in Kilrush at 10:30 on May 12th.

by BlackPope Sat Apr 26, 2003 16:16

u no it is!

Rather than ask what EH is doing, examine if you are making the max poss personal contribution to advance the cause.

EH may have made an ill-advised comment at some stage, but remember, deeds speak louder than words, and everyone learns as they go along.

He is certainly working his ass off and shows up as a good contrast to armchair posters.

Schalom, BP

by Damien Moran - Dublin Catholic Worker 'Pit-Stop Ploughshares' Sat Apr 26, 2003 16:26 dbamoran at hotmail dot com 087 9638398

Jenny and Martin will be appearing at Shannon District Court on May 8th at 11am in relation to their Good Friday Potato Planting and Sacred Shrine Erecting Direct Action at Shannon Airport (see Indymedia Homepage News Item).

by Anti-war activist Sat Apr 26, 2003 21:06

Why does Black Pope assume that criticism/queries always comes from armchair or cyber 'activists'? That's a cop-out. I'm no armchair activist and, to be blunt, I have no time whatsoever for Horgan after his divisive rubbish around 1st March. Are we supposed to forget everything in pursuit of specious unity? Horgan is a poor ally.

by free abortion on demand - ANV Sun Apr 27, 2003 00:35

and i cant find any info on your position regarding abortion rights. the FAQ seems to be focused around yer woman that founded the CW.

i checked some of the links, and the UScatholics.org seem to be anti-abortion.

ok so you have never worked with youth defence in the past, but would you work with them in the future?

could you please clarify the postion of CW re: abortion rights for women. i think my name makes it pretty clear where I stand on the issue.

Cheers

by so what! Sun Apr 27, 2003 01:49

thats not your name.get in touch with the cw's i am sure they will discuss this shit with you,i have.what are you afraid of by not puuting your real name up?that other people who use indymedia will know your views on abortion?
but for the hell of it,what if the cw's didnt share your view.so fucking what!you exposed the cw's of being anti-abortion,pro-life...different point of view from you big fucking whoopee and you friends wont believe you because you didnt put you real name up.you can see by my name how i feel about your issue.
time to get bigger dungerees babe

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Sun Apr 27, 2003 09:13

The ethics of the Catholic Worker are anarchist (roughly "without exploitation") and pacifist (roughly "without violence") how they apply to the taking of animal life, unborn life, disabled born life, the aged, the death penalty, occupying military forces are questions worth exploring.

Because anarchist and pacifist ethics are negative definitions they are much better questions to explore (in terms of how one applies them to praxis) than trite rote answers for the mudslinging/wrestling of the anonymous internet.

I'd encourage you to look at the christian-anarchist section of the book "Demanding the Impossible - A History of Anarchism".

Suffice to say that there is no role for the state (cops, prisons, executions) or coercion in legistlating our ethics or "realising the kindgom" etc That's one of the reasons the Catholic Worker did not support the Nuremburg trials, but we think that it's worthwhile to hold the document and history up to those who did and now behave like Nazis and "good germans" of the time - the U.S. Irish Government, the Irish courts, cops etc etc

In terms of the abortion question it is ladened with trauma & post-trauma for many of us, hypocricy, confusion, more heat than light and I'm not prepared to discuss it on the internet.........it was definitely ladened with trauma for our founder Dorothy Day and I do encourage you to rent the video "Entertaining Angels" from your local store as a kick off point.

The Catholic Worker movement has been going since 1933 in the U.S. - there are over 140 communities claiming to be acting in the tradition, all autonomous and a lively debate over many questions of praxis and theory. There is a wealth of literature - both academic analysis and movement experiences written on the movement. The archives are held at Marquette Universityin Winconsin.

by Marge Sun Apr 27, 2003 14:03

Ciaran, you're beginning to slip into Bertie-speak. Why can't you directly address the question of abortion rights: do you or do you not support the right to abortion in Ireland?

I notice others on this tread feel that this is something of a diversion and not a query worthy of a reply. For those of us active on the left who have put years into fighting for a woman's right to choose, this is exceptionally important. I cannot form any sort of view on the Catholic Worker Movement unless I know your wider policies - especially on this issue.

Youth Defence also opposed Nice, but that does not mean we allied ourselves with them. In fact, we drew a clear line between them and us because of what they ultimately represented. We can all be anti-war also but I won't ally myself with those who oppose the right to choose. Fighting for abortion rights has been (and is) tough in this country. It's a crucial issue.

by Someone who's not you Sun Apr 27, 2003 14:13

What's this about the Shannon 6? See the other thread currently on the newswire regarding ten activists up on Wednesday for pulling down the fence and mass trespass on 12th October? 10+6=16. Doesn't it? Or is this favouritism chapees?

Best of luck to all 16!!

by Number Scruncher Sun Apr 27, 2003 14:25

2 on Good Friday.
5 CW's in Feb.
1 Mary Kelly.
9 in October.
which is 17.
Plus other people such as 14 arrested in the north during Dubya visit and various indivduals around the country.

by Ciaron O'Reilly Sun Apr 27, 2003 15:48

Marge,

Marge, if we haven't heard from you yet after (collectively) months jail, we won't be holding our breath for your solidarity.

We are before the courts for resisting the war and chasing 3 U.S. companies out of Ireland for 2 months who have transported 50,000 combat troops through here. Marge, don't know if you slept through that....but it's pretty sad math that there is only 17 before the courts and 50,000 commuting....one could reach the conclusion that the peace movement here just wasn't militant or courageous (Even the Brits came up with Robin Cook and hundresds opf arrests for resistance!)

And there seems to be a (colonised) Irish confusion between being rebellious and contrary which you seem to be suffering from Marge.....if this is all you can come up with while we're looking at years in jail.

I'm not looking for your vote...I don't vote, I don't support the criminalistaion of anything (see cast the first stone thang in the gospels), I don't owe you anything, I don't know where you got that impression from Marge.

My barrister has told me to prepare myself for 3+ years in an Irish jail. I really haven't got the time for cynics, voiers and people playing games.

If you don't wanrt to support us fine, wwe haven't missed you so far. If you want to put a lot of energy into starting a witch hunt and undermining the small ampount of support we have (us being Catholic-anarchists doomed to being to hip for the straights, straigh for the hips, too spike for the fluffies, too fluffy for the spikeys)...you really need to get a life.

OK then
Ciaron

by Marge Sun Apr 27, 2003 16:38

Ciaran, I've rarely read a more patronising and arrogant reply. I've been active in left-wing and republican politics for over 30 years. I know plenty about jail but, as you say about yourself, our personal motives and experiences are only public property if we choose to make them so. Also, I've been active in Irish anti-war politics since before the Iraq conflict started, and I'm absolutely certain I've been fighting British imperialism a lot longer than you. Your self-praise doesn't impress me.

Anyway, enough about us. As you say, we as individuals are not the issue. The politics are - and you still refuse to outline your policy on abortion. Try giving a political response to a political question. Personal abuse and arrogance impresses no-one.

by redjade Sun Apr 27, 2003 16:40

I'm not a CW, nor a christian, nor religious, nor do i agree with their views totally, and i am pro-choice, but here's how I see it - for what it's worth.

I grew up around CW's, Quakers & Church of the Brethren types and they were the ones who 'radicalised' me at an early age, and i jokinglike to say, they the one who fucked me all up :-)

In all those of years of working with the US religious left I was *NEVER* given the usual pitch/sell of 'is it not time that you committed your life to christ....'

gathering conversion points to bribe god to get into heaven is not what these folks are about.

They are about acting on conscience. putting one's conscience and heart into doing the right thing - it is a personal committment.

along with the traditions, tactics and strategies of gandhi, king and others who use non-violence to affect social and political change.

it is a philosophy not based on the usual anger-based groupthink that you see in the most of the secular left.

this is more than merely 'getting arrested' but a campaign and a campaign that appeals not to 'ideology' but to what we all inately know is right and wrong, and acting accordingly - following a 'higher law' [insert diety/superego or conscience here].

back to abortion...

in my experience with the christian left there is little agreement on the issue. I have stood eye to eye with placards in hand protesting my christian comrades at times - that's an odd experience that is only humorous because of the joyful humor of the christian lefties ive known.

since many are anarchists, they would not want to see abortion outlawed (that is if they oppose it) while others simply say it is about individual choice while others see it as 'a war on the unborn' and should be opposed in the same way other wars should be opposed.

the point is, i have never seen any agreement on the issue, and these folks are not into following the dictates of centralised organisations or churches etc, so dictates would be ignored anyway.

but for even the anti-abortion ones, it often seemed to be a 'lesser' issue to the war on the living that goes on everyday as bombs drop killing thousands or an economic system starves millions.

I think the CW's have shown ireland in a short time how well their strategies and tactics can work and people should be learning from them.

i think there should be an opportunity for people in ireland to sit down and talk shop with these people and discuss philosophy, tactics and strategy for the long term - they have much to offer all of the irish left.

by Anti-war activist Sun Apr 27, 2003 16:52

Number scruncher has forgotten Eoin Dubsky, so it's the Shannon 18. Let's not forget that number, which we are in danger of doing if we focus only on the high profile cases. All 18 did this country some service, and half of them are up in court on Wednesday. Best of luck!

by Daithi Sun Apr 27, 2003 17:03

To those (here and in response to other articles) that have been "just asking questions" and "curious" about the Catholic Worker movement, have you ever considered that doing some real reading (i.e. away from the Internet!) might be more fruitful than hammering away with questions on an Indymedia site?

Here are some good books on the Christian/Catholic left, mainly either Latin American liberation theology or U.S Catholic Worker (there is a difference!) stuff, not all expressing the same point of view, or even dealing with the same subject matter, though there is some degree of crossover.

J. Comblin, "Called For Freedom" - liberation theology in the context of globalisation and the post-Cold War world (1998)

Philip Berrigan, "Fighting The Lamb's War" - an autobiography of sorts, short, flits between theology and personal history and politics - also quite honest about disputes over tactics, direction etc.

Klejment, A and Roberts, N (eds), "American Catholic Pacifism" (1996) - history rather than doctrine, focus on Dorothy Day and the CWM.

Gustavo Gutierrez, "A Theology of Liberation" (1973, translation) - the classic Latin American book, personally I found it heavy going but maybe that's just me ;)

Dorothy Day, "By little and by little" (1983) - various writings, some better than others, but if you want to get a picture of where she was coming from this is the one to read.

There are only things that I've come across and read myself so aren't meant to be representative; others could add to them if possible.

by Ciaron O'Reilly Sun Apr 27, 2003 17:42 087 918 4552

In a culture of collective mediocrity, being assertive will always be confused with arrogance. This tall poppy syndrome is a result of a keep your head down, ass covered way of surviving colonisation and it was exported in spades from Ireland to Australia....where the colonised quickly became the colonisers etc etc.

Some of us at home and in the diaspora are in a painful process of decolonisation...most of us aren't!

Yep, I've spent two years in jail...9 months in a Texas jail where I was the only white guy in the jail and locked in a cage with 23 other men all of one ethnic group....it was a real fight, fuck or hit the fence environment...this and other jail experiences (where being a political prisoner was a lonesome experience) has left me short on patience
with people who aren't before the courts or in jail for resistance fucking with those who are...the orginal piece is on the Nuremburg Principles and how they apply to our criminalisation....these other issues seem hardly relevant to this context.

From the outset we have been lied about by U.S. Irtish governments(assualting a gard etc.) and slandered on indymedia by who know who working for who.if folks want to organise forums to explore Catholic Worker traditin and issues of application of anarchist and pacifist principle in relation to whatever.....give me a call.
Thanx
Ciaron

by Deirdre Clancy - Catholic Worker Sun Apr 27, 2003 18:12 deirdreclancy at hotmail dot com

Nobody is obligated to give a yes/no answer on the issue of abortion, thus buying into the often emotive polarisation that goes on around this issue on Ireland. I have known people on BOTH sides of the debate who have refused to take part in media fora about abortion, precisely because they find the level of debate unsophisticated and predictable, not honouring the complexities of the issues and the social problems that are part and parcel of these issues. I think that the implication that folks couldn't support the CW in any way, shape or form if the CW was on a certain side of the debate, even if they agreed with the CW on other issues, is just another symptom of this lack of sophistication that surrounds the debate around abortion, on both sides. As has been pointed out, the Christian left is as diverse as any other movement on this issue (I've known radical feminists who don't support abortion on demand and Christians who do). Ciaron is under no obligation to buy into this low-level debate in a public forum, and I fully support this decision. We don't feel obligated to fit into your need for facile categorization. We have enough on our plate at the moment.

by Non-Catholic Sun Apr 27, 2003 18:30

Aw Deirdre, you clearly have no real sense of the division in this country over the abortion issue. It is a deep, deep divide and you're kidding yourself if you think this current topical issue (the war on Iraq) is too important to be 'interfered' with by the abortion question. Sure, it is a difficult question but it is one that matters. This business of saying that you won't subscribe to 'black and white' is an old trick to avoid answering difficult questions. Be straight about this or you will lose people's respect - and I respect your anti-war activity immensely.

by Ciaron O'Reilly Sun Apr 27, 2003 19:53

Dude,

We aren't playing politics...we are out on bail on restrictive conditions, pursued through the high court by AirRianta, under serious state surveiullance, charged with serious offences ( and two of us originally denied any bail at all because they perceive us as such a threat to the good order of genocide)....we aren't playing politics, we aren't asking for your vote at the next elections on the basis of our policies!!! I really can't understand how you folks get that impression?

At the moment we are jail bait...slandered by the U.S. and Irish taisoch, ministers, emmissary Hass, denounced by some of the mainstream peace bureaucrats and hassled on indymedia by folks who won't even give their names.....this is all a bit of a drag and a distraction.

This posting is because a local peace group see how vulnerable we are and have decided to organise an open letter and a public meeting in relation to our criminalisation and responsibilities set down by the Nuremburg Principles.........so sorry if we're a little busy to jump through your hoops and concepts of leftist loyalty oaths...but we gave at the office.
Thanx
Ciaron

by free abortion on demand - ANV Sun Apr 27, 2003 20:38

First off, the one called 'so what' seems to assume that I'm a militant female feminist. This I gather from the 'dungarees' comment.

Wrong - I'm actually male, but I do take offence at your insinuation that women who are pro-abortion are all dungarees wearing womens libbers. My ma would have a thing or two to say about that.

Secondly, Ciaron said that they info on abortion could be found on the CW website. I couldn't find it. I'm not gonna organise a CW meeting, or read a million books about christian-anarchism to find out the answer to one simple question.

Thirdly, I'm not on a mission to 'expose' anybody as 'so what' seems to think. I am ***genuinely interested*** in the CW position, or if there even is one. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the issue. During the last i worked with the ANV, while at the time my then girlfriend (who was not at all religious) was vehemently pro-life. I just wish to know the position, or if one exists.

Fourth, my name is not important, I might be called Sean Smith or Kevin Kennedy for all it matters to the debate.

Also, i'm interested in the whereabout of the assembled anarchists who, whenever questions are raised about sf/greens/sp/swp/lp, are demanding answers. why arent they here demanding answers from the CW too?

Can we have a straight answer? Do the CW support the right for women to have abortions?

by Fergal - GNAW Sun Apr 27, 2003 21:14

Regardless of the CW postion, if there is one, on abortion they will continue to have my respect and solidarity for their actions in Shannon. We shouldn't lose sight of why they are in the courts.

btw Ciaron- you have no time for weasel words and you have always expressed yourself with commendable clarity and forthrightness. It would be interesting to read an article on the abortion issue from your perspective on a different thread. If that doesn't interest you at the moment fair enough but I would be genuinely interested.

by E - None Sun Apr 27, 2003 21:34

Well said Fergal.
I am getting increasingly tired of this claptrap from people who 'are totally against the war, etc' but cannot support any protest because individuals or organisations whose views on absolutely everything do not coincide with their own are also organising or protesting. It smacks of 'I can't be a vegetarian because then I would be associating with or condoning Hitler'. If someone has a question about any group's views surely the place to address it is with the group itself or to raaise it as a new item for discussion but this requires action as opposed to reaction which seems to be the root problem with many of the dinner party conversation commentators around. I've recently been hearing a lot of the 'I won't protest because I'd be tied in with the mono-chrome poster brigade' nonsense.

by Kev Sun Apr 27, 2003 22:26

How come it's ok to put this type of question to sinn fein, swp, wsm, socialist party, youth defence, etc etc but it's not hipto ask the catholic workers? Yeah, ciaron, I know you're not looking for my vote but you are pushing a view and an organisation. All your actions are branded. We don't hear of 'individuals' doing this or that - we hear that the 'catholic workers' have done this or that. You lay claim to your actions all the time.

It is clear that you want your message to reach people - as a 'catholic worker' message. Well, then you must explain what the cw stand for in more specific terms. These questions are put to every group that pushes a view (and you do this), so there's no need to be so bloody defensive. Why should your group get special treatment?

Right, lets have it: what's your position on abortion and on contraceptives? Start a new thread as our friend above suggested if you like, but if you put your group out there you gotta answer these questions. You're not a one-issue group, are you? Well, we already know you're not.

by free abortion on demand - ANV Sun Apr 27, 2003 23:32

you get the old faithfuls coming out saying - this is not news, post it as a comment on a relevant thread.

ye cant win

by Ciaron O'Reilly Mon Apr 28, 2003 00:07

Kev, babe,

When Jesus was confronted by Pharisees, Saducees, lawyers, agents of the state and contrary fools he hardly gave a straight answer. (The discourse in Mark's gospels provides 100 and something zen coen like questions and few directions....the big one being pick up the cross...the means the empire had to deal with dissidents).

What I'm posing to you and your like is what is your motive for these questions, in all these comments there hasn't been one mention of the Nuremburg trials, Nuremburg principles, your obligations in relation to 50,000 combat troops commuting through your country and your failure to live up to them and how they relate to the Shannon 6....who are facing criminalisation and further jail time.

You, and your like, reduce politics to a game while Iraqis burn and CW's and others remain in the fire zone, jails and courts. Grow up mate, find another hobby...because this one is about life and death, serious people taking serious risks with their lives and freedom. Too serious to be dragged into some co-dependent dance with the contrary, the mediocre and the miffed.

I'm not convinced any of these postings are a sincere search for truth, if you don't get me on this, you'll go after my hairstyle or whatever will get you off the hook in showing serious solidarity with serious people in a serious situation. (I'm not sure what got you off the hook ni relation to the Iraqis and the troops passing through your country but I'm sure it was as esoteric)

This is a vulgar medium and there is a lot of trauma and post-trauma surrounding these issues and I'm not prepared to explore them in this vulgar medium and they are not relevant to this posting..........I'm starting to think you folks just haven't heard about the Nazi holocaust, the Nuremburg Principle and trials...pig ignorance wasn't an excuse for them and it isn't an excuse for you....rent the movie!!!

by Pro-choice Mon Apr 28, 2003 00:08

Deirdre of the Catholic Workers claims that the abortion issue is too complicated to discuss in the 'low level' way us pro-choice activists handle the topic.

Right, well then, let's not discuss 'war' either because as you may have noticed, the reasons and rationale behind most wars are pretty complex also. Actually, let's discuss nothing - face it, every issue has much beneath the surface and our type of 'low level' debate adds nothing.

On second thoughts, let's just ignore Deirdre's advice. Where would our public sphere go?

by Pro-choice Mon Apr 28, 2003 00:20

Ciaron: You really should stop acting as if you're the only one who gives a shit, as if the rest of us (your questioners that is) do not understand the seriousness of war and political struggle. Do you think pro-choice activists are playing a game? Do you think we know nothing of the effect our actions (and inactions) have on real people, on real lives. I have protested against the use of Shannon by the US, knowing full well that slaughter is being facilitated. I understand the issues and I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the other people asking you questions on the choice issue. We deal with life and death decisions also. You have no monopoly on struggle, understanding, or suffering, so chill out!

by Felix Mon Apr 28, 2003 00:47

Second the above. Chill out Ciaran! You're not the only one that cares. And what's with the Jesus thing? Makes no sense to me.

by Ciaron O'Reilly Mon Apr 28, 2003 00:49

I'm chilled,I've just finished a pretty stressful gig at a homeless wet shelter, but I'm relatively chilled.

.... 3 of us on bail are pretty close to being homeless, 2 of us with no likely chance of getting any income, one other on a minimal stipend etc etc....a little stressed but relatively chilled (I must say I didn't realise that the country was so conservative and moderates & the left would be so motivated to stab us in the back once the action went down, but live and learn....do you ever get the feeling that anyone with any get up and go, just got up and went along time ago....beacuse I've met some wonderful courageous diaspora in england, usa, oz..who have serious bottom lines about supporting resiters before the courts etc etc....oh well, I digress...too late for such musings uhhhh?

We have moved from protest to resistance that's why we are in the situation we are in.....the government was never uncomfortable with the "you have your protest, while we have our war" arrangement that you remained within the confines of.....50,000 troops commute, 100,000 march, 17 before the courts (thank God Ireland scraped into double figures uhhhh?)....the choice for you now is to support the folks who resisted and are now criminalised etc

If you don't want to support us fine.....it's your choice!!!

I can't understand if you're not a cop or in deep need of therapy (try exploring sibling rivalry issues???).....why expend all this energy into trying to undermine those of us who have done serious resistance, pissed of seriously powerful people and now face their wrath. The Feds, the Garda, the CIA, ASIO, Special Branch really don't need your help...I'm sure in their own way their appreciative of your efforts...but they would assure you they can deal with us without your help!

But if you don't get it, you just don't get it....it's a different realtiy, this protest and resistance!

by Peter the Painter Mon Apr 28, 2003 03:21

I've read O'Reilly's postings and I reckon, apart from being incredibly defensive, he's definitely neurotic. If we're so conservative around DA, how does he explain the IRA, INLA, and years of armed resistance to British imperialism? We put in years behind bars, and saw our friends and family gunned down and bombed by Brits and loyalists. Direct Action: no stranger to us friend! Jail: been there, done that, but I imagine you would have serious issues regarding why I was inside. Resistance comes in many forms.

by Ciaron Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:41

Resistance is sustained by community and solidarity...it is undermined by cynicism (the 5th. column of the establishment). I have no resentment that you did your jail time on wings controlled by your organisation. It's a little different when your on your lonesome as your friends may have discovered in England. Different in the sense that solidarity in the environment can't be assumed and that is why we are a little sensitive to it being undermined by folks (moderates ot=r cynics) safe on the sidelines.

Yep we're into nonviolent resistance because we are radical Christians....we don't expext absolute pacifist ethics from non-Christians. We assume you are running with the relativist just war ethic in reltion to abortion and arm struggle ( and given the nature of both innocents get killed...most folks from Blair and Bush down are willing to run with those ethics and the collateral damage consequences).... our reading is that Christ wasn't, as in nop one is expendable. To the empire and state-in-waiting all are expoendable from JFK down.

The hypocricy of the Church bureaucrats of course is that they go to the wall on a pacifist ethic on abortion, while maintain a relativist ethic on war.

Pete, don't want your sympathy, cynicism or your surname ....don't need it, we still don't know who you are or how much your contribution is a fabrication.
See ya
Ciaron

by Free Abortion on Demand - ANV Mon Apr 28, 2003 19:34

"We assume you are running with the relativist just war ethic in reltion to abortion and arm struggle ( and given the nature of both innocents get killed.."

So the CW position is that abortion is war (presumably on the 'unborn').

Thank you for (at long last) clarifing this.

Ciaron, I'll tell ya something, you'd make a great poltician they way you avoid the questions.

And personally I don't care what Jesus said or didn't say 1000 years ago. I am an atheist.

And I find it very insulting that you try and paint me and others as 'state agents' or cops. I have worked with the ANV, the IAWM, RAR and others.

This doesn't take away from you great actions down in Shannon.

But you do seem to have rather a big head about this.

by Kevin Daly Tue Apr 29, 2003 14:25

I have to say that while disappointed by the Catholic Worker position on abortion, I'm much more disappointed (and even angered) by Ciaron's arrogance, lack of humility, and insulting manner. I suspect he will immediately dismiss what I have to say (perhaps as a ruse by a political enemy or a 'cop'), but I shall say it anyway.

His attitude to the majority of peace activists is completely without understanding or generosity. There is no respect. There is no sense in which he accepts the legitimacy of diverse tactics, or of different approaches. I am a pacifist who does not agree with Ciaron's tactics, but I have verbally defended him every time I've heard criticism of his actions. Why? Because I believed that he was motivated by good intentions and, dare I say it, by the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't do what he did but I respect his course of action and I did respect him. All I see now is belligerence, blind arrogance and an inability to respect other people. I will continue to defend his actions but he has lost my respect.

Sadly, I think his response to this will be that he doesn't 'need' my support or my respect. Maybe not, but he needs somebodys. God be with you my friend.

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker Wed Apr 30, 2003 00:00

This is a vulgar medium....if you seriously want to explore these issues stop me in the street and we'll talk (you can find us each Monday vigilling otside the G.P.o. at 4 p.m.)

I'm pretty humbled by the three Briristh soldiers facing court martial for resisting the war, 3 Dominican nuns in jail since October for a weapons inspection and disarmament action, Ulla Roder in jail in Scotland for disarming a Tornado, the two Quakers who disabled the 35 B 52 support vehicles at Fairford.

If you are a serious peace activist so sould you and muster as much as support as possible for these folks before the courts and in jail. The Irish peace movement generally lacked courage and militancy and has now largely evaporated since the demise of 24 hour tv coverage.......there was way too much opportinism amongst the leadership and way too little experience of serious struggle...but ya gotta start somewhere, so support the folks who did....

Many thanx for the full house at Liberty Hall tonight, the generous donations and solidarity....many regrets to responding to the trolls on this site, I'll give it a miss next time.

by Kevin Daly Wed Apr 30, 2003 00:59

I was at Liberty Hall tonight. It was indeed a very good meeting. A positive meeting.

by BlackPope Fri May 02, 2003 23:47 BlackPope at operamail dot com

22MB mp3 approx 90min duration