Labour supporters back College Fees

by King Mob Fri Apr 25, 2003 19:28

You have issues woman.

by Josef Fri Apr 25, 2003 19:38

Any child in Ireland could tell you that much.

by Shane - Socialist Party/ Socialist Youth Fri Apr 25, 2003 21:26

I found the poll the interesting but not surprising. Labour politically have degenerated so much over the past decade with the party's right assuming power.

Internet poll's aside, Labour has showed that it's no radical political party and is in the same neo liberal club as Fianna Fail, and the Blueshirts.

Their radical leader Pat Rabbitte has declared that hes not a socialist as have other members of the LPP. In Doublin South west he's not interested in the anti bin tax campaign.

Rabbitte isnt even interested in fee's. I sent him an email through the USI campaign of emailing your TD's a while back and the reply I got was four sentances of spin and effectively - you leave it to the big boys to debate in parliment. I doubt that the man even bothered to read my e-mail or personally reply.

In relation to Labour Youth I have to agree with Hilda. Labour Youth stagnet and bankrupt in ideology. What annoys me about Labour "Youf" is the fact they platser images of Connolly on their recruitment posters for recruitment when they clearly are opposed to what Connolly stood for.

I would like to ask Labour these questions. Labour claims to be a socialist party - If they came to power on their own (which they never will because they are losing support by the hundreds to genuine socialists, republicans and greens) or as part of a coalition government with the establishment parties would they pursue policies such as -

1.Nationalise Industry
2.Redistribute Wealth to the poor and to socially productive initives
3.Democratically plan the economy for peoples needs
4. End the two tier health service
5. Put in place community control of the Gardaí
6. Ensure that Drug users recieve treatment and support services for themselves, their families and in the worst case scenario their victims.
7. Take the average workers wage for all elected public representatives
8. Ensure that all people living in Ireland are entitled to an education irrespective of class, age, culture, ethnicity or social background.

These are only a few things - but I cant see the Labour party ever genuinely supporting most of these policies - I can see them paying lip service to the them alright.

If there are still any genuine socialists in Labour now is the time to get out and join a real socialist party that has a clear socialist programme and a vibrant Youth section namely the Socialist Party.

http://www.socialistyouth.cjb.net
http://www.socialistparty.net

by Alex Fri Apr 25, 2003 23:51

Labour eh!

Pull the other one.

Come on Olwyen, the real spokesperson on education in Ireland.

by Alex Fri Apr 25, 2003 23:51

Labour eh!

Pull the other one.

Come on Olwyen, the real spokesperson on education in Ireland.

by Magneto Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:07

Online polls can be manipulated and are not scientific.

by The Insider Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:30

For shit's sake, this means nothing!

Anyone can log into an online poll and twist the results - a Cork office of Fianna Fail logged onto USI's website and distorted several polls.

by MG Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:58

Are you still in nappies?

by Manus Bree - LY Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:25

It is absolute non-sense to claim that the majority of LP members are in favour of fees. A large percentage of supporters and members of the party are PAYE workers, who will have to suffer another indirect tax, this time their children’s college fees next autumn. It would be a surprise to me if these same people thought €4,000 a child/ year is a good choice for their family's welfare.

Having been heavily involved with anti-fees campaign here in UL and having talked with many party members over the past year and to our own spokesperson Jan O'Sullivan I have not heard one word spoken in favour of college fees.

It has been constant argument of our spokesperson that all levels of education should be free and paid through a fair/equitable and distributive tax system. She has highlighted figures that the abolition of college fees has improved 3rd level participation of children whose parents are PAYE workers.

by Manus Bree - Jan O'Sullivan Fan Club/LYUL Mon Apr 28, 2003 14:57

I think than Manus Bree's last posting proves a point about Labour members. They are usually followers of particular TDs.

The younger ones are usually College students (like our Manus).

by Anarchist Mon Apr 28, 2003 15:00

I thought that you were opposed to 'the party line' magneto?

Here you are online blindly defending your pathetic party.

by KG - SWP Mon Apr 28, 2003 15:40

It seesm the LAbour Party out in UCD will gain some cred on the left for recruiting the chair of SA, Donal Lyons (aka Magneto).

by The Directory Mon Apr 28, 2003 16:48

Or is there some other reason why Paul Murphy got such a piss-poor vote in the elections?

by Manus Bree - LY Mon Apr 28, 2003 17:33 Sligo

I see noting wrong with towing the party line if it justified. And i'm not blinding defending the party, i will defend it where justified off course. But the suggestestion of the original contributor was completely misguided.

Has anybody a problem with the idea of free education and equal access of all to the educational system?

I'm am not the follower of any particular TD, but i know Jan particularly well, as she lives in Limerick and i have discussed this topic with her on numberious occasions. She is very solid and committed on the issue.

I see no problem with being a college student, large percentage of young people between the ages of 17-23 are still in full times education. I am glad for the oppertunity to recieve third level education, i don't take it for granted, but i do have a huge problem with the local authority grand i recieve.

by Alex - www.yfg.ie Tue Apr 29, 2003 13:23

Yeah right Manus.

I'm a member of the University of Limerick Young Fine Gael, and Labour's line on fees on campus is laudable.

by Bernard Cantillon - Labour Youth Tue Apr 29, 2003 17:03 Equality at USI dot ie

I can't believe that the SP have sank so low that their members are now interpreting online polls as definitive research into the views of a party membership and support base.
Though I am a member of the Labour Party, I regularly check the websites of other political parties and other organisations. Wait for it....I actually vote on some of their online polls. Now nobody would suggest that I am a supporter of the SP, Greens or Fianna Fail, yet like many other people I glance at their websites occasionally to see what they are up to. Grow Up!
As regards Jan O'Sullivan. Jan has being doing a fantastic job opposing the proposed abolition of free fees and she is the Education Spokesperson of the party, so it is no surprise that Manus should mention her in his email. I understand that the SP is too small to have spokespersons on anything, but that is usually the way when you have more than a handful of members.
The Labour Party is committed to building a democratic socialist society, not a dictatorship of the central committee, as the SP would have. We are committed to ending the two tier health service. We are committed to providing services to addicts and those that are weakest in society. We are also committed to redistributing wealth as widely throughout society, making sure that there are programmes and services provided to all equally.
The SP get hung up completely on nationalisation. Somethings are not in need of nationalisation, so there is no problem there. We must keep the services that the state requires as essential in public hands, but other services are negotiable. What the state really must do, far more important than debates about nationalisation, is to make sure that labour laws give the workers of Ireland rights that will make their conditions of employment fair and equitable. It is about the state as regulator and enforcer. This is much more realistic than getting hung up on idealogical arguments that alienate most of the workers and general populace of Ireland.
On a final point, the SP has regularly argued that all public represenatatives should live at the average industrial wages. I am sorry, but I am a socialist, because I believe that people should be able reach for the stars, regardless of their social background. It is very easy for people to declare, from the sanctuary of their middle class homes that all politicians should live on the average industrial wage, when they have everything provided by their parents. I believe that the average industrial wage is not something to be promoted as some sort of ideal situation. Surely we want to see more equality in the system, decreasing the gap between rich and poor, but there is nothing wrong with paying politicians above the average industrial wage. Would you rather see us go back to the days when politicians were paid relatively little, yet wandered the nation taking bribes at every corner. The electoral system we use makes it very expensive for the individual to run, so their wages mean that some in the right wing parties may no longer actively seek bribes to pay electoral costs. (one would hope this at least). Paying everyone the same wages is not equality. It does not reward innovation or progression. Different jobs have different levels of stress attached. A politician is someone who surrenders their privacy to serve the people and than has no guarantee that they will be employed after the next election. Get a grip!
Anyway that's it. I'm sure that I will get ideological drivel from the SP warriors, who are writing on the laptop that Daddy bought them for Christmas with their allowance, which removes their need to work, in their pockets.
I am proud to be a member of Labour, which is a democratic party, that has real solutions to real problems, not just reference pages for the works of Marx or Trotsky.

by Oisin Kelly - SP Wed Apr 30, 2003 15:19

First of all Bernard, there is no evidence of 'Hilda Robinson' being an SP member. If she is, i've never met her! And I'd agree with the point that online polls are not accurate in finding out opinions of party membership (just look at the SY e-poll, not always representative of membership).

The SP is committed to creating a democratic socialist society. As you should well know the SP dont not call for the 'dictatorship of the central committee'. We stand for the Dictatorship of the Working Class, as opposed to the Dictatorhip of Big Business. We dont just stand for the 'redistribution' of wealth, we call for ownership of wealth by the people that create it.

We do call for the nationalisation of the commanding heights of the economy. We don't call for the nationalisation of every fish&chip shop. We make no apologies for calling for the nationalisation of large industry and the banks and placing them under workers' control. This is not 'alienating' people- this is a very basic socialist demand.

Bernard thinks that the state's main aim is to provide labour law to regulate working conditions etc. I would agree with the introduction of better working conditions, however they are not won through the state. Any gains that the workers movement has made on working conditions, on political rights etc. has been won through struggle. Bernard you should know that in UCD students have only won positions on the College Governing Bodies after struggle, most notably in the late 60s and early 70s - not just by simply asking nicely.

On the workers' wage policy of the SP I think you misunderstand what we advocate. We say that politicians and trade union offials should be on the wages of the people they represent. Again I make no apology for believing that public representatives should be subject to re-call and should not have wages that are far above those that their constituents have. We do not think that there should be a return to when MPs did not have any wages- as you should know the Labour movement were to the forefront of calling for MPs pay. And I dont think that representatives should be personally out-of-pocket for thier work- all expenses should be accounted for.

Finally I think that attacks on SP members for being 'middle class' is immature and more importantly blatently wrong. I come from a working class family, as do most SP members. I dont have a lap-top or an 'allowance from daddy'. As a student I have to make do with the shite grant that the government gives out and any savings I have from work.

I have no problem with anyone being proud of being in any party- fair play to you for getting active in what you think is the best way forward. I disagree with the Labour Party, I dont think thay offer any alternative for Irish workers, and are in reality a bosses' party. I am proud to be a member of the Socialist Party. We are the only party in Ireland in my opinion that is offering a fighting socialist alternative to local, national and international issues.

by Patrick Nulty - TCD Labour party Wed Apr 30, 2003 19:00 nultyp at tcd dot ie

Hi folks,

Well it appears many people on this site are very keen to talk about who does or doesn't represent working class people. I think it might be useful for me to offer my perspective.

My father is a security guard who earns roughly 400 euro a week and works 60 hours per week. I think that qualifies as working class.

Now some points.

A) Labour Youth is a large and active organisation. We have over 60 paid up members in trinity alone. So lets get the facts straight. Our membership is growing all the time throughout the country.

b) Anyone who understands the nature of inequality in our society will understand that the barriers to 3rd level education etc. are both economic and psychological. Re-introducing fees will re-inforce the idea that college is something "other people do". Free education at the point of access is at the core of socialist values and rather than arguing about spending in one sector of education being transferred to another, a more wholistic approach should be taken and education spending should be increased. If this requires increased taxation then so be it.

c) The labour party has not abandoned working class areas. It's labour party TD'S and councillars who are fighting on a daily basis to get proper facilities and infrastructure in these areas. For years, labour party councillars oppossed corruption in planning which affects peoples daily lives in many ways.

d) An online poll is completely unscientific and anyone who takes the findings of an online poll seriously probably thinks sky news provides 'objective' news coverage. The reality is the overwhelming majority of labour members are completely against bringing back fees.

e) Rather than trying to undermine the Labour party people who claim to be socialist should concentrate on oppossing our neo-liberal government. They are the real bad guys folks.

Anyway thats all for now.

by Oisin Kelly - SP Wed Apr 30, 2003 19:09

I think that activists should concentrate on attacking neo-liberal policies. The fact is that if in government the Labour Party would implement many neo-liberal and other capitalist policies. This is a fact.

Your co-thinkers have done it throughout Europe. And you have done it here in Ireland when you get the chance to cosy up with FG and FF.

by jpc - swp Thu May 01, 2003 16:00

woo!!!

by Someone who was in Labour Youth in the 1980s Tue May 06, 2003 11:22

I was a member of Labour Youth in the early 1980's and attended a number of Labour Youth Conferences during that time. I remember the Conference where New Direction won control of Labour Youth from the Militant.

Militant had been in control of Labour Youth for a number of years and had been an absolute pain in the side of the leadership of the Labour Party. I think one of the biggest things was the fact that they had 2 people on Labour's Administrative Council from LY.

New Direction was based around the Labour Left group within the Labour Party. Militant had its base mainly in the city constituencies in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway (Although I do remember Donegal supporting them as well). New Direction were organised in the Colleges.

Dick Spring and the leadership of the LP had been threatening to close down LY for some time but appeared to give Labour Left one last chance to get control of LY. People like Stagg, Joan Burton and others put in a big effort to win the conference, with the help of right-wing TD's, in particular people like Brendan Howlin.

At the Conference, LP headquarters staff took control of the administration of the Conference. Delegates from many of the Militant controlled delegations were ruled out while people who had been members of Labour Youth for only a few days were allowed in as delegates for New Direction. Delegates turned from Constituencies that had never had a Youth Section, like Kerry. New Direction won control of Labour Youth by a small margin with the help of Spring's people, and made no attempt to hid it. While the Militant could come in for some criticism for their role in Labour Youth they never adopted the attitude "if we don't control it we'll shut it down". Some members of New Direction behaved in a very high handed manner. I remember one particular nasty incident when Vinny Byrne (who became national chairman of LY) attacked a young woman with a new born baby because she was breastfeeding the baby. From the podium he demanded she be removed from the hall for daring to do such a disgusting thing, and wasn't it typical of the way the women in the Militant behaved.

I left the Labour Party not long after because of its participation in Coalition but I do recall Labour Youth becoming very much a vehicle for people like Dermot Lacey to climb the corporate ladder of the Labour party. Whatever you think about the Militant at least they attempted to make LY a radical group.

Magento said "Only one of the leaders of New Direction has ended up in what might be called the right/centre of Labour, Michael MacLoughlin, he is International Secretary."

News to me. I suppose people like Vinny Byrne and Mark Little could be classed as defenders of socialism. In fact, as far as I know, the only person who could be remotely classed as left wing is Ivana Bacek. Maybe Magento could enlighten me on what has happened to those leaders of New Direction and the role they have played in defending socialism in this country.