Connnolly's murderers still rule

by Iwannabeatraveller Wed Jun 16, 2004 18:31

BULLSHIT!!!!Take a drive through Rathkeale Co Limerick,especially the Heights.This is where all the "poor"travellers live.Nothing but houses crammed full of valuable antiques and 4wds and vans of the 03 or 04 registeration.
I suppose it is "traveller culture" to have massive clan wars on football pitches in Galway compleate with leathl weapons and firearms.As one Garda put it "it was like somthing out of Braveheart".
I suppose also it is perfectly Ok to terrorise a town in Wexford or to mpve onto private property and encamp there.[Dawn meats processing plant]
As well as for settled travellers to rape fifteen women in Southill, Limerick. despite being scum,one of Limericks well known criminal brother,went to them and put it up to them that if happened again they and their famillies would pay for it.The gaurds wouldnt do it[wonder why].It seems to be the only lingo travellers understand .Violence.
Travellers are their own worst enemy.The whinge about oppression and bad service,yet do sweet fuck all to alliveate the prejudices of the settled community.
Why then did even bishop willie walsh finally have to move the travellers off his land?Maybe even his christian patience was put to the test?
One of these days a community will NOT take anymore from 200 odd travellers and there will be a very serious case of ethnic cleansing that would make Yougoslavia look tame in comparison. It WILL HAPPEN,settled people are losing patience with this section of the pouplation.

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 18:01

**They are treated like outcasts and they are given no opportunity to integrate. **

Do they want to integrate?

I believe that mostly they do not.

by Marina Wed Jun 16, 2004 17:43

Like so much debate on this issue, most of it lacks balance. People have their opinions /theories and they're not for changing.

One such person made this comment in his piece: "What exactly is the "obsolete" economic role that travellers are hanging onto? They engage in a burgeoning industry which should be more central and encouraged in Irish society: recycling"

I think its fair to say that anyone with an interest in recycling and a clean environment has to be appalled with the travelling community's version of it. Illegal dumps (for profit), ordinary dumping as well. Another one, burning plastic wire to get at the copper. With all the incinerator controversies, has anyone even mentioned the damage these plastic/PCBs/etc fires can do?

Of course not every traveller is engaged in this. But enough people are for it to be very damaging to our health and our environment. Am I being racist by pointing this out?

An aside on travellers and racism: Are the Muslim community of Ballyhaunis, Mayo being racist for objecting to travellers who blocked access to their homes and smashed their windows?

by neogeo Mon May 13, 2002 01:07

It easy to take any arguement and cite extremes or over simplify. The travellers prediciment is a localised Irish example of the plight of long-time economic or social underclasses in the modern world.

Here it is really simply, so you'll understand:

1) Caravan moves near a house in middle class estate with accompaning refuse issues and "cultural" differences

2) Occupants - richer resident workers move away. As the work new occupants do is not valued as highly by society to pay comprable amounts. Non-state services deteriorate. Why provide a service people can't pay for?

3) Price of property falls

The comparison:

1) Single person with a degree earning €50,000 pa.

2) Upper tax band increased to 55%. Unless the person concerned geniunely is interested in the community in which they live and can see their money spent efficiently, they will

3) Move away, taking their talent (intellectual capital) to somewhere more favourible.

The point is:

(in relation to the first example)

An economic and social underclass should, ideally, not exist in the first place. But seeing as it does, perhaps it might help matters to assist the socio-economic underclass so they NO LONGER ARE ONE and to educate the rest of the world NOT TO SEE THEM AS ONE. Also, you change takers from the system into contributors generating more revenue from taxation in the long run.

(in relation to the second)

That the individual concerned sees his contribution to travellers (or whoever, there are many disadvantaged groups in Irish society) welfare is not just taking something from you in monetary terms, but giving you something back in social terms and that he is not prejudiced against working with them because they are just as much a valuable part of the varied social and cultural environment as he is.

But then the odd soundbite's much easier, isn't it?

by fuinseog Sun May 12, 2002 23:08

or just very confused, maybe a gnome?

The idea seems to be that unlike a 19th century estate, a house in Killiney can be moved to Eastern Europe and the Irish economy will collapse if Travellers live beside prejudiced wealthy people. Is this brave neo geo on the other side of a looking glass or down a rabbit hole?

by neogeo Sun May 12, 2002 01:49

Halting sites in Killiney are not an answer. Its evident that should one be set up there the price of property would fall. For prejudicial reasons, yes, but that dosen't diminish the economic reality that in the western capitalist world when the wealthier people deem their status under threat they tend to move their capital elsewhere, where conditions are move favouriable. At the moment capital is both intellectual and liquid and thus easily transportable. A simple example. Multinationals setting up call centres, assembly line factories due to a low wage expectation in Ireland. Over time, expectation of quality of life increases, as do wage demands and capital investment is moved to say, eastern europe. The solution to this is better education, which to a degree is happening, both to allow travellers to take better jobs and to educate the settled community to take a more tolerant stance towards them so that the arrival of a halting site would not precipitate a fall in the price of property based on buyer's prejudices.

The important thing is that in a "globalised" society where capital is mobile, any moves to reduce the privilages of the holders of capital is an incentive for them to move elsewhere to the economic detriment of Irish society as a whole whose current standard of living could not be provided for without foreign trade and investment. I mean, the 19th centuary landlord couldn't just pack up his acres and go elsewhere.

These are economic facts, and it's madness to keep throwing 19th centuary localised politics at the issues. And any efforts to limit globalisation (a global economic entity) should be on a global scale, not a local one.

by Phuq Hedd Sat May 11, 2002 21:25

What exactly is the "obsolete" economic role that travellers are hanging onto? They engage in a burgeoning industry which should be more central and encouraged in Irish society: recycling. They also engage in tarmacadaming, house-construction, labouring etc.

The problem that they face is discrimination. They are treated like outcasts and they are given no opportunity to integrate. They are a symbolic and visible part of the discrimination that millions of people in our country face: the discrimination of poverty. We notice the Travellers because they are slightly different and we pick upon them and make their lives worse because it's nice for everyone (even the poorest) to have someone to despise.

If Ireland were sincere about trying to resolve the "traveller problem" then we'd be providing halting sites in Killiney. Then we'd be providing healthcare for people in Darndale and then before you knew it we wouldn't have any confused people needing explanations.

by neogeo Sat May 11, 2002 20:59

Can anyone explain why, if I own or live on a peice of property that another individual should be entitled to move in without my permission? This is "my" space after all, and it is my decision whom I choose to allow on it, be it rented, bought or supplied by the state. There is a happy medium to be found somewhere here, I'm sure. For example, public land can be made available to travellers. I agree that people are entitled to their own space to live in, which very few younger people, even with good jobs are able to afford today. I just simply fail to see why someone should have a right to occupy my home.

The Travelling community has major social problems within itself, and many are not really directly the fault of the irish social state. The economic role they once filled in Irish society is obsolete and as a result a significant underclass developed.

Now this is not being racist. If Banking, Finance and Law etc were to be, for arguements sake, automated by advanced computer systems, the populations of Foxrock, Blackrock etc. would similarly degenerate.

But therin lies something of an answer. With computers and technology it is possible for a great deal of people to work while on the move - in fact about one third of Oracle's workforce in the UK work either from home or the road. So hopefully, as things progress, their mobility with not be as much of a problem, perhaps even a benefit.

The "way of life", like all other facets of society eventually will have to modernise to survive while providing a good standard of living. Why is no one manufacturing 088 mobiles anymore? Obselete. The Coopers (Barrellers) were once a thriving group of tradesemen and as were local Blacksmiths etc.

That's not to say that you would wish to force a modern way of life and all its benefits and hazards on anyone, but it's good to give people the choice that the technology is there to improve your standard of living if you want it and basic services are there if you do not.

by GluttonMan Sat May 11, 2002 19:01

"fuinseog", it's about time that many of us newswire participants realised that there are a lot of people who like to take the piss. Maureen (from Barcelona) has been a noted and succesful troll on the Irish Times discussion boards for at least a year. Don't rise to the bait.

by fuinseog Sat May 11, 2002 17:47

Maureen, what planet are you on?

Under the new law, to be a Traveller without a place to put your caravan is to commit a crime. This is the same of the vagrancy laws the Victorians had which criminalised homelessness.

And the local authorities who are supposed to be providing halting sites don't do so because racists like yourself don't want Travellers in their area.

How do you know who pays taxes and who doesn't? Easier just to rely on your racist sterotypes of Travellers.

What's this nonsense about Travellers in someone's garden? I've never heard of that happen, but why should that disturb you. Even if it did how dare you blame all Travellers for the actions of a few.

While you're at it, why don't you blame all Muslims for sept. 11 and all Jews for Israeli war crimes.

I am truly sick of the racism in this country. There is no surer way for a politician to lose his/her seat than to stand up for them. No-one suffers anything like as much discrimination and bigotry as the Travellers do.

by Maureen - none Sat May 11, 2002 16:19 maureen at menta dot net Borrell 183, Barcelona, Spain (34) 93 451 1436

What are you on about??? Travellers have been ruling the Irish system for decades. They park whre they want to, leave loads of rubbish behind them and cause mayhem, whereever they go!!! Why can't they live like civilised citizens?? Conn, don't you pay taxes, mortgage, gas, electricity, water, etc????. THEY DON'T!!!. OK? The new law is not to mermer their rights, but make them respect the rights of others. Now, if you bought a house and garden on the, say, outskirts of Kilkenny. Then one day you come back from work and find a whole family of them parked in your garden. What would your HONEST reaction be?????

I agree with Monday's meeting and agree with others such like, but not with defending travellers.. OK???

Cheers