Learn about socialist system in Korea

by KF Thu Apr 17, 2003 13:41

'Joe' that is completely historically inaccurate and is nearly on a par to denying that the holocaust did not happen. You must be getting your history lessons from the stalinist school of falsification.

I don't think OK's denial of the support for the North Korean regime was directed at you. It was directed against an earlier post claiming that the SP supported the regime.

It is always amazing that some on the so called 'left' jump on the red scare bandwagon at any oppurtunity and in the process do the job of the capitalist class and the stalinists in spreading lies and mistruths against genuine socialists

by Joe Tue Apr 15, 2003 16:36

I love the technique. First you accuse me of writing something I didn't ie "Where is the evidence that we ever supported or support the regime of Kim Il Sung?"

"I think you will find that the very people in Stalin's gulags were Trotskyists and Left Oppositionists."

What't that got to do with anything. Hitler stuck the SA in prison, did that make them 'good guys'. 'Stalins' gulags were created by Trotsky for his opponents (thats a quote from him in my first post in case you are daft enought to deny that). He lost the power struggle with Stalin so his supporters ended up there as well. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

by Killian Forde Mon Apr 14, 2003 20:00

Some wacko comments above. Below are some facts and analysis of why DPRK is in the state that it is. Politics or not this state would have great difficulty being 'comfortable' - their policies in isolation from the rest of the world (rightly or wrongly) mean that the country will continue to be on the brink of collapse for years to come.

http://www.ennonline.net/fex/03/fa10.html

by OK - SP Mon Apr 14, 2003 18:33

where do people like you get that chip on your shoulder about the SP? Where is the evidence that we ever supported or support the regime of Kim Il Sung?

I think you will find that the very people in Stalin's gulags were Trotskyists and Left Oppositionists. Why? Because they opposed Stalinism in the USSR, and where a threat to the regime.

The fact is that we call for a revolution in North Korea. We call for a democratic workers' state in N. Korea based on workers' councils.

by Joe Mon Apr 14, 2003 16:47

The idea that N. Korea is any sort of workers state (degenerated, deformed or boil ridden) just exposes the politics of the SP. For them socialism is not about freedom, this is the icing on the cake we might get if we are lucky and well behaved. It is about their party being in charge.

In Korea the wrong leaders are in charge but the system itself is fine. So the SP just want to replace Kim Il Sung II with Peter Hadden. After that (due of course to 'objective circumstances' and 'imperialist armies')
"If we seriously speak of planned economy, which is to acquire its unity of purpose from the center, when labor forces are assigned in accordance with the economic plan at the given stage of developement, the working masses cannot be left wandering all over [Korea]. They must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded, just like soldiers". "Deserters from labour ought to to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps".

by OK - SP Mon Apr 14, 2003 14:00

I dont ever think that you ever listened to what we say on North Korea. We would call for a revolution in N Korea. In such a revolution the people of North Korea should take over the control of the economy and plan it in their interests.

Unlike in capitalist states the North Korean people would not have to take control of the economy away from capitalists, rather they would take control away from the bureaucrats. Hence it would be a political revolution.

I think that you actually would agree with this position. If you want to discuss it further why not give me a call or get in contact.

by shug Sun Apr 13, 2003 20:20

Well, maybe N. Korea is state capitalist just like the former Soviet Union and the present PRC. Maybe that partially explains why there was no "politcal revolution" in the superstructure of the USSR as your abstract schema outlines.

Or there was a political revolution, but one more in line with the nature of the "base"---a political revolution of the bourgeoise in the party.

Has anyone done a detailed study of the mode of production in N. Korea? That is what you would need to answer some of these questions thoroughly.

Of course, imperialist aggression against this nation should be opposed--and atomic wars in general.

by Finghin - SP Sun Apr 13, 2003 14:59

Conor,

I don't think I ever really had the oppurtunity to fully explain our position on North Korea to you.

We believe that the bureacracy in North Korea is totalitarian and undemocratic we DO NOT support this regime. We call for a political revolution in North Korea that would see the toppling of this regime and genuine workers democracy.

We believe that democracy is an essential part of a planned economy.

What we do defend is the planned and state owned nature of the Korean economy NOT the bureacrats who are infact destroying the development of the planned economy and would in all probability wish to see the restoration of capitalism in North Korea.

by A comrade Sun Apr 13, 2003 14:16

If the SWP can lead us to a glorious revolution we can all live in a worker's paradise!!!

Long live the glorious SWP revolution!!

by Chemical Sally Sun Apr 13, 2003 13:33

Dig those cool sun glasses on Comrade King Kong II

by Lone gunman Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:46

Of that old gent there.I reckon toothpaste and tooth brushes are in short supply in the glorious peoples dictatorship of N Korea.BTW the propaganda posters are neat where can I buy some of them?Imperialist yankee dollars ok?

by conor mc gowan Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:26

or some other such term which means not condeming n.korea. while nearly every government around the world has drawn scorn from the sp/cwi, n.korea the "degenerated workers state" still hasn't.

its proberbally the largest factor in me personally never signing up to them. i think (but am not sure) that the swp dont support him.

beneath all the looneyness in this posting, its worth remembering that joe&co find this mass murderer more acceptable than the social democrats in, for example germany.

by THE YANKS ARE COMIN'! Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:45

I say, I do qgree with lina and HRW, this country is in need of liberation.

Let's get the aircraft carriers fueled and the bombs loaded. The Great American Homeland is coming to save you!

Tu casa es mi casa!

by James McKenna Sun Apr 13, 2003 09:36

How would you say this sqares with the Socialist agenda of Warmongers like Mr Tony Blair ?

by lina Sun Apr 13, 2003 01:50

this is from human rights watch . hardly an example of "capitalist media lies" .

Human Rights Watch urges the Commission on Human Rights to adopt a resolution condemning serious and widespread violations of basic human rights in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK). The resolution should call on the DPRK to implement recommendations issued by the U.N. Human Rights Committee in July 2001. It should also urge the DPRK to cooperate fully with and provide unrestricted access to United Nations Special Procedures.

Background
The DPRK ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in September 1981. Its second periodic report was filed with the U.N. Human Rights Committee in May 2000 after a lengthy delay (it was due in 1987). The DPRK is also a party to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

Human Rights Watch has no access to the DPRK and has not carried out research inside the DPRK. The closed nature of the DPRK and the lack of access by private human rights organizations and U.N. human rights experts is a major obstacle to monitoring abuses and promoting improvements.

Human Rights Watch has conducted research with North Korean refugees who have fled to China, and now reside in Seoul. We collected testimony on horrific conditions and treatment in labor camps and prisons in the DPRK, which we have corroborated with information from other sources. In a report on North Korean refugees published in November 2002, HRW documented serious abuses including: arbitrary and discriminatory treatment of citizens based on family background; torture and cruel and degrading treatment of detainees in labor training camps, provincial concentration centers, and political prison camps known as administrative camps; and the use of forced labor.

Other reports of serious abuses in the DPRK include arbitrary arrests and detention, severe restrictions on basic and fundamental freedoms of belief, assembly, association, religion, press and freedom of movement, and use of the death penalty.

In its submission to the U.N. Human Rights Committee, the DPRK government claimed that torture is prohibited by law, that remedies are in place for those whose civil rights have been violated, that forced labor is "never used as a means of political coercion or of social and religious punishment," and that the DPRK's Criminal Procedures Act strictly limits detentions and arrests. The government also said that it had reduced the number of capital offenses from over thirty to five.

However, the U.N. Human Rights Committee expressed concern that except for murder, the other capital offenses were basically political and vaguely defined so that the death penalty could be utilized to punish peaceful political activities. The Committee made recommendations regarding the use of the death penalty and public executions, torture, trafficking of women, cruel and degrading treatment in prisons, the lack of freedom of movement both within the DPRK and outside the country, the lack of freedom of expression, unfair trials, and the absence of independent human rights organizations in the DPRK.

Refugees
Criminal law in the DPRK prohibits unauthorized departure from the country, in violation of the fundamental right to leave one's country, guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. DPRK law provides potentially severe penalties for offenders, from a sentence of three years of labor re-education, to punishment by execution if "one who escapes to another country or to the enemy in betrayal of his motherland" commits a "serious violation."

Regardless of their reasons for leaving, anyone who leaves the DPRK may face imprisonment upon return, especially if they have encountered foreigners, journalists and aid workers. Thus many of those who flee the DPRK are transformed into refugees sur place, or persons who, while abroad, become entitled to protection as refugees because of the risk of political persecution should they return.

The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights should have access to all refugees forcibly returned to the DPRK to ascertain that their rights are fully respected and they are not subject to arbitrary detention, ill-treatment and punishment.

Recommendations
The Commission on Human Rights should adopt a resolution that would:

Express grave concern about serious abuses of human rights in the DPRK, and press the DPRK to fully implement the recommendations of the U.N. Human Rights Committee.

Call on the DPRK government to provide complete and unrestricted access to the U.N. special rapporteurs and working groups on arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment, religious freedom, violence against women, and on the independence of judges and lawyers.

Call on the DPRK government to provide the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights access to citizens who have left the country and been forcibly returned in order to determine their safety, treatment and welfare.

February 27, 2003

by Caspian Sun Apr 13, 2003 01:47

Oh don't be so touchy, What's Your Name. Jiffybag brings a bit of fun to this forum. Any eejit can see he hasn't a clue about what is really happening in North Korea. What a grey, dull place. Bit like Albania. Shame about the hungry people. Good news about their nuclear missile system. At least that stops the Yanks from attacking them.

by Daithi - 1 of IMC IE Sun Apr 13, 2003 00:56

KIJFAN, Restrict your posts, please. Posting numerous articles on the same topic on a daily basis is taking up space on the newswire, and drowning out the voices of other users who have just as much right as you to be heard. Your favourite world leader may be very dear to you, and to many readers, but Indymedia doesn't judge one cause or topic as being more important than another; we will, however, act to keep the newswire free for a diverse range of issues. Try and add your "new" stories to the articles that you have already created today and on other days. The voice most listened to is not necessarily the loudest or most persistent one.

(Just waiting now for the response that obviously I am forcing my anti-North Korean politics onto the site. I've heard it all before for every possible prejudice so don't bother.)