War & Revolution: Baghdad 'Liberated', Did the Anti War Movement get it wrong?

by Andrew Wed Apr 09, 2003 16:43

Reposted to counter spin

I'm watching BBC News24 here which is transmitting live from the square outside the Palestine hotel. An Iraqi crowd are trying to pull down a huge statue of Saddam. Meanwhile a western anti-war protester (british?) has actually confronted the marines there. After an argument with a marine he was pulled back into a Humvee by other men from his units.

related link: struggle.ws/stopthewar.html

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by Andrew Wed, Apr 9 2003, 2:15pm

The protester was described as a young British women in a black T-shirt shouting 'cowards, cowards' at the marine who was swearing back at her.

In terms of analysis its interesting that this exchange was happening in the middle of a crowd of Iraqi tearing down the Saddam statue. Some of them spoke English as a couple gave phone interviews
around this time.

by redjade Wed Apr 09, 2003 16:46

Liberation?

Glad to see Saddam and his friends go - it is a great day, indeed!

But it is not 'liberation' - more like 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'

Are the following countries 'free'?: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Palestine, etc...

and remember, Kuwait is still awaiting 'liberation' - women are not even allowed to vote or be represented in the so-called (and powerless) parliament.

The US (and it's allies) now occupies Afghanistan, Palestine and Iraq - the resistance to Empire has been going on for a while in two of these countries, and has just begun in the third.

resistance is fertile

by Terry Wed Apr 09, 2003 16:47

There is no chance of the US allowing democracy in Iraqi, not that they ever did
anywhere else since the end of WW II.

The article referenced in the 'related link' gives one good reason it is unlikely
to happen.

by Terry Wed Apr 09, 2003 17:04

And so what about all those burned out tanks and every other spot in all of the Iraqi cities
that have been attacked with Depleted Uranium weapons. Last night I noticed one of those Tank Buster
planes firing multiple small bombs and bullets all over the place. Many of these are likely to be
DU large calibre bullets.

All those people climbing on those tanks or hanging around them are in grave danger to their long
term health, including that of any future kids they might have.

The microscopic DU dust has now been 'injected' into the urban environments to do untold damage for
possibly hundreds of years. Except these slow deaths, like the deaths due to sanctions are unlikely
to appear in the 'great free press' of the 'civilized world'.

by hmmm Wed Apr 09, 2003 17:27

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1048313581372&p=1012571727162

by James McKenna Wed Apr 09, 2003 17:44

Are we so busy discussing if the war is over or not we forget to ask when will the war criminals Bush and Blair be prosecuted for yesterdays war crimes and how can we STOP THE WAR.

Only a fool would think this is over. The Iraqis want the US/UK to come into the cities . They said so from the start. Now it starts.

I remember a smarmy British Army officer sitting atop a pig in Derry proclaiming it "liberated" over thirty years ago. He was an idiot and those who believed him were idiots but they did accecpt the barbaric behaviour of the soldiers based on the illusion it would be a short war. We're a lot wiser now as the Iraqi people will be in thirty years. As the people of Afghanistan are today.

by kokomero Wed Apr 09, 2003 17:46

Let's rejoice at the Iraqis being liberated from their oil, which will now go to Halliburton and Bush's other campaign funders, and in exchange they'll get a fantastic puppet government.

Will they really be dancing in the streets when they realise how they've been duped yet again?

It would be infinitely better if they had been given the means to free themselves instead of this farce.

by Maubere Wed Apr 09, 2003 18:03

Ok 1st of all I think the anti-war movement (of which I'm a part)has to face up to the fact that some Iraqis are pro-war. I know some of the people cheering on the Americans may be plants but I think we would be fooling ourselves if we just said that nobody in Iraq was happy with what the Americans have done. I know the Bush regime and previous US regimes are scum and that they support loads of evil dictators and terrorist regimes around the world. I know that most Iraqis are suspicious of US motives especially after George H Bush stabbed them in the back in 1991. I also know that the US plans to install a puppet regime that will include war criminals who used to be on Saddams side. I know of all the examples of "Liberators" turning into occupiers.
However I think we have to aknowledge that some positives may come out of the invasion, by removing Saddam the Yanks may have given a chance to the Iraqis to relaim their country. I know the Yanks will try to stop democray emerging in Iraq (like they did in Afghanistan)but if the Kurdish people manage to get independence then I wont complain about it. I heard a Kurdish leader on the TV a few weeks ago saying the Americans would not be able to control what happens in the country after the war. Saddam maintained power through brutal oppression, the US will find it hard to get away with similar human rights abuses because of the pressure the anti-war movement has put on them. Parts of the anti-war movement have been engaging in wishfull thinking aswell, some were claiming the Iraqi people were joining the resistance against the invasion and that nobody was greeting the Americans and British soldiers, both of these claims are untrue, the civilians did not fight for Saddam and some people are welcoming the troops, I don't think anyone can say what proportion of Iraqis are welcoming them. We can't ignore facts just because they don't fit in with our arguments, if Iraqis welcome the Yanks then we have to deal with it, we cant censor these facts, to do so would make us as bad as RTESky/BBC etc, Hopefully the Arab and Kurdish people will resist the invaders when they find out what the US has planned

by T Dillon Wed Apr 09, 2003 18:24

Saddam is trash and BushBlair is trash, the problem with this too easy defeat of Saddam is that now the chicken hawks with their world wide agenda can extend their war without any hope of anyone stopping them for the time being.

Are we now to expect a Blitzkrieg on Syria and Iran and France with nukes to boot? Don't rule it out when you watch the Bush boy strutt his stuff for the cameras.My God but the guy is so empowered and like the empty vessel that he is so easy to read.

Come on China grow up fast! The world needs a counter balance to this Amerikan military monster considering that "Europeans" like Blair would sell us all into slavery again if we give them the chance.

by Anti UCD SP Dillon Wed Apr 09, 2003 18:37

MR. T. Dillion otherwise known as the UCD SU President Elect, So you're a big supporter of China, that will go down a treat in next weeks tribune!

by Des Wed Apr 09, 2003 18:56

The fact that the repressive regime of Saddam Hussein is not a positive development for the long-suffering Iraqi people. Saddam will simply be replaced by a stooge regime such as that of Karzai in Afghanistan. The most important natural resource of Iraq will be used, not for the benefit of the long suffering Iraqi people but will effectively be controlled by oil MNC’S in order to provide cheap oil for the economy of America and their allies. What we are witnessing on our TV screens is a particularly blatant form of neo-colonialism, some would say and I would not disagree too strongly, that it is in fact the re-introduction of colonialism. U.S. Imperialism and it’s junior partners have murdered a substantial number of people in order to gain control of a developing country’s natural resource and other victims are in the “pipeline”, Hugo Chavez, Iran and Syria are obvious examples.

by mimi rent boy Wed Apr 09, 2003 19:08

There are reports comming out of Fl that Jebb Bush is pushing for the liberation of Cuba!

It would secure FL in 2004!

by Anonymous Wed Apr 09, 2003 20:01

I belive it "may" have got it wrong. I posted articles on this site well before the war started asking people if they knew what the people of Iraq wanted. Nobody knew. And I believe no one has ever known.

Like the author of this piece I started off as a vehement anti-war protestor but am now disallusioned, and have been venting this disallusionment on this site for a number of weeks now.

Nevertheless, right now I basically just do not know.

It sickens me to see the US/K vindicated in the publics eye. I will not be able to watch Bush & Blair on tv.

One of the biggest dangers out of all this, is that the US/K are left off the hook for future imperialist moves they make and for present ones they continue to make.

The anti-war movement must now move on and focus on what (puppet) government will now be put in place by the US - here their real cards will begin to come out.

As saddened as I am by the loss of life in this war, it gives me great joy that it was not way worse. It also gives me great joy that the rule of Saddam is albeit at an end. I just now pray that the next rulers of Iraq will bring the people true freedom - alas, their chance of this is as about as good as all the luck they've had in their beleagured history.

by ipsiphi - never does anonymous Wed Apr 09, 2003 22:00

because the term US/K does not mean US/UK.
if you do not understand that you didn't get the t-shirt, and are not privy to the word/number worm that is US/K.

They have had a pyhric victory.
Mr Bush and many others of the establishment that fought War are for the first time touched by the people in a psychological way.

We sent them mad.
now get your terms right.

by ipsiphi Wed Apr 09, 2003 22:01

unconditional surrender to full treaty nice ness with Maupassant on top.

by T Dillon Wed Apr 09, 2003 22:36

QUOTE:
"GO CHINA - its a great country!
by Anti UCD SP Dillon Wed, Apr 9 2003, 5:37pm
MR. T. Dillion otherwise known as the UCD SU President Elect, So you're a big supporter of China, that will go down a treat in next weeks tribune!"

No idea what you're talking about.

It was somehow cosier and more reassuring during the cold war. Thus the idea of a chinese balance. (Small c).I can't even speak Chinese.

Things have heated up way too much with this depleted Uranium and the next half million cancer victim children of Iraq.

My sympathy to these irradiated victims of Iraq in the new world chaos of Ariel Bush.

I hope Rumsfeld told his boys at least not to go messing about in those burned out ruins without their haliburton suits. Even soldiers who shoot children and journalists have mothers.

God bless the decent people in Iraq and those who wish for peace.

by Maubere Wed Apr 09, 2003 23:00

Two interpretations are being put forward about the war,
1: The Iraqi people are welcoming the liberators, the only people fighting for Saddam are his cronies and hangers-on.
2: The Iraqi people are not welcoming the US invasion, they are joining with the army to resist the invaders. Anyone cheering for the Yanks is a CIA stooge

Both of these are partially wrong, the civilians are not rallying around Saddam but neither are they all welcoming the Yanks with open arms, they know the Yanks are there for the oil.

I think one lesson to be learned from this "war" and Afghanistan is that the US will probably stick to invading countries ruled by brutal dictatorships, these regimes survive on fear and terror and ordinary civilians won't be inclined to fight for them, if they invade a country which has a popular government or rebel force (eg Vietnam) then people will fight. I don't think they'll invade Iran because the rulers there have a degree of popular support. The reason the anti-war movement is so big in the world is because the Iraq War has recieved so much coverage, if the terrorist campaign waged by the US in Coilombia was getting the same amount of coverage I'd say there would be millions on the streets aswell. Regarding what "Anonymous" said my advise is not to be dissillusioned, there are plenty of other injustices around the world to protest about, unfortunatley. The anti-war movement has to re focus our attention on all the other problems throughout the world that the leading world powers (USA, UK, France, Russia, China)are committing, for example,
Terrorist regimes and human rights abuses in Colombia, Indonesia (West Papua and Aceh), Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Chechnya, Tibet, Sudan, Palestine, Chiapas, Congo, Algeria, Western Sahara, Burma, Eygpt, Afghanistan, Guatemala, El Salvador etc

by Irish American Thu Apr 10, 2003 00:06

Hey you shallow leftists and kooks and your beloved Ba'ath party lost.

Get over it -- after all, there's still North Korea, Cuba and Libya to exalt.

by Phuq Hedd Thu Apr 10, 2003 07:42

And Hussein's coup for its leadership was backed by them. I don't think that many of the opponents of this illegal war of aggression by the US/K war criminals cheered for Hussein. (Unlike those same war criminals that sold Hussein chemical weapons and shook his hand while he used them on the Iranians and the Kurds).

by Paul Moloney Thu Apr 10, 2003 09:35 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com

Someone called T Dillon said:

"Come on China grow up fast! The world needs a counter balance to this Amerikan military monster considering that "Europeans" like Blair would sell us all into slavery again if we give them the chance."

If you honestly think that China, a country with possibly the worst human record of any, could be _any_ kind of counterbalance to democracies, you're an even bigger idiot than this web site is capable of. I suggest you go and do some reading about China and its record in places like Tibet. Put is this way; it isn't in Europe or American that people who post articles diapproved of by the authorities are dragged off to "reeducation camps" and have electric prods inserted into their anus.

P.

by T Dillon Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:24

If you honestly think that China, a country with possibly the worst human record of any, could be _any_ kind of counterbalance to democracies, you're an even bigger idiot than this web site is capable of. I suggest you go and do some reading about China and its record in places like Tibet. Put is this way; it isn't in Europe or American that people who post articles diapproved of by the authorities are dragged off to "reeducation camps" and have electric prods inserted into their anus.
P.
------
To Mr P
We obviously need a balance of terror to keep the yanks in line. I am no more a supporter of the Bush elite than I am of the Chinese elite. When the rest of the world is composed of e mail writers who pith their wit against the military might of the chickenhawks then I would say that obviously the balance of terror is out of kilt.

You completely misunderstand the argument if you try to justify Amerika as a democracy and China simply as a dictatorship.I am simply saying that the world needs a balance of military terror and I don't see the disneyland democracies of Europe getting their act together before this whole redneck religious snake oil show of Bush the baptist gets seriously out of hand.

What will you say when in the future the Chinese make a grab to get back Formosa? They would simply be following the example set by Bush. Would you support Bush's nukes against China? Please don't tell me that Taiwan is a democracy, just remember who Chang Kai Shek was and the billions of dollars of gold reserves stolen from the "people of China".

The balance of terror is gone! That and that only was my point.

by **** Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:57

The UCD SU President elect is Paul Dillon. You don't spell Paul with a T!

by ipsiphi Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:13

or is that just the application of logic to geo-political affairs?
please let me know.
I'll do some t-shirts and conspiracy theories.

by Paul Moloney Thu Apr 10, 2003 14:06 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com

>We obviously need a balance of terror to keep >the yanks in line. I am no more a supporter of >the Bush elite than I am of the Chinese elite.

We, some of us want a balance in the world too, though not of terror. That's why I support a strong united effective Europe, despite the best attempts of the recent "No to Nice" campaigners. Did you vote "No"? If so, can you tell me why you'd rather prefer a Chinese superpower over a European one?

>What will you say when in the future the Chinese >make a grab to get back Formosa? They would >simply be following the example set by Bush.

This is much the same argument as we shouldn't have police to arrest people, because we'll only encourage criminals to lock up people in cells.

P.

by js Thu Apr 10, 2003 16:22

The authors question were left unanswered, perhaps they were too hard?

by Andrew Sat Apr 09, 2005 23:07

Or too easy - I think time has answered that question and suddenly 40 people pulling down a statue looks a lot like a photo op

by mise Sun Apr 10, 2005 00:01

The Saddam statue story was faked. Fake news reports are flooding all the Media - paid for by the penatgon.

Here is a photo of the actul event, What's worng with this picture?