McLaughlin to address anti-war rally outside Hillsborough

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Apr 08, 2003 13:30 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Strike Action: The SP and the SWP continually slag us off for not taking Trade Unionism seriously and claim they have much greater influence in the Trade Union movement than we do. Whatever about the former, the latter is certainly right, so why aren't they mobilising their membership into strike action? Our influence in the Trade Union movement, for a variety of historical and political reasons, is not very substanial. Those who do have that influence should use it, and should be the people you target.

Opposition: Off-hand I can only think of this issue, and abortion where I disagree with the leadership's position and made that clear on Indymedia. What 'others' should I take the lead from? And there is room in Sinn Féin to articulate different politics and it is done. We had almost 400 motions at our last Ard Fhéis, covering everything from policing, to economic issues, to gender issues, and on many of those there was a great deal of debate, one constitutional change passing by only one vote.

by Aidan Tue Apr 08, 2003 13:28

That no one from Sinn Fein, can or will say what Bush's involvement in the peace process is?

Why he's here? What steps he's particapted in, to bring negotiations allong?

I would really like to know what part has the current US administration or Bush himself, played in furthering the Irish Peace Proces.

Please answer these questions.

by Hebe Tue Apr 08, 2003 13:27

In previous arguments , members of the SP have admitted these cutbacks took place. Their excuse is that Miltant never had a majority in the Labour Group. The fact is though these 'Militant' councillors had a choice of resigning the Labour whip or implementing the cutbacks.

Militant chose to implement the cutbacks.

SF did not have a majority in the Stormont Cabinet. They went along with the cutbacks in the same way Miltant did.

The only time the CWI ever held power anywhere, they introduced cutbacks in Education, Health, other local servicves & sacked workers.

by Khalid Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:52

Cllr. Eoin and Justin if SF are anti war why have they not mobilsed theri membership and support base into strike action?Yet against SF have avoided the difficult questions.

Justin it seems to me that you are continually opposed to the leadership whenever they do something indefensible. If this is the case why don't you take the lead of others and try to establish a left opposition in SF.

by Khalid Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:49

Hebe that is shite about the Militant lead city council. That council was the best performing council in Britain and was the only one to stand up to Thatchers massive attacks on local democracy. Below is just some of its achievments.

6,300 families rehoused from tenements, flats and maisonettes
2, 873 tenement flats demolished
1,315 walk-up flats demolished
2,086 flats/maisonettes demolished
4,800 houses and bungalows built
7,400 houses and flats improved
600 houses/bungalows created by ‘top-downing’ 1,315 walk-up flats
25 new Housing Action Areas being developed
6 new nursery classes built and open
17 Community Comprehensive Schools established following a massive re-organisation
£10million spent on school improvements
Five new sports centres, one with a leisure pool attached, built and open
Two thousand additional jobs provided for in Liverpool City Council Budget
Ten thousand people per year employed on Council’s Capital Programme
Three new parks built
Rents frozen for five years.

In future Hebe find out about what your going to comment on you fool.

by Cllr Eoin O'Broin - Sinn Fein Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:24 eoinobroin at hotmail dot com

This link begins with a spoof statement placed by someone claiming to represent the Sinn Fein press office. Clearly there are activists out there who are failing to recognise the task at hand, which is focusing our energies on the anti-war protests. These activists want to waste time and energy on trying to fragment and split the most successfull anti war coalition in Ireland in the last number of decades.

Sinn Fein's position on the war is clear. We are opposed to Bush and Blair's intervention in Iraq. We have stated it publically. We have stated it in meetings with Bush and Blair directly. We have mobilised and protested and spoken at rallies.

The reality of Tuesdays meeting in Hillsborough is that the current round of negotiations on the Irish peace process are crucial for the survival of the Good Friday Agreement. Refusing to attend any of the sessions, including that with Bush and Blair, would mean leaving the talks to the unionists, with all the likley consequences that would bring.

Many Sinn Fein activists such as myself are uncomfortable about engaging with Bush and Blair, but the successful development of the peace process is vital, and in that context we must engage with all relevant parties and leaders, domestic and international, to ensure that the republican position is effective.

While I respect the feelings of anger and disapointment expressed by many comrades outside the Sinn Fein organisation on this issue, people need to realise the importance of these negotiations, and the negative impact if Sinn Fein withdrew from them.

It does not surprise me that some organisations fail to understand the importance of these negotiations, or indeed that others want to make short term political capital out of attacking Sinn Fein. Thats the nature of politics.

However, people need to think of the consequences of fragmenting the anti war coalition. Our objective, throughout this campaign, is to manage the diverse organisational and ideological differences which exist between the constitutent parts of the coalition, and to mobilise effective, joint action. Individual organisations have the right to criticise others, but hijacking rallys, heckeling speakers, engaging in negative and wastefull debate, or indeed posting fake statements is counter productive and only serves the interests of those supporting the war.

This anti war coalition is a positive and refreshing development for all radical, left and progressive forces in Ireland. Lets ensure that it dosent go the way of earlier failed attempts, through petty bickering and narrow point scoring.

Cllr Eoin O'Broin
Sinn Fein, Belfact City Council
[email protected]

by pat c Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:42

note that in my reply i said i believed the payments didnt come in large amounts from big business. it would mostly be collected in smaller amounts.

some big business types would certainly block book tables at SF fundraisers but i dont really think it is rational to believe this will make sf more amenable to supporting these companies rights to keep unions out of their plants in ireland.

i was asked the question to try and find grounds to attack me no matter what my answer. i did not put a lot of deep thought into it. i find these peoples obsession with my opinions on SF quite entertaining.

(NB Chekovs subsequent query is valid & is not a snide attack IMHO)

i dont believe that SF as a party represents the interests of big business. i also know that there are a lot of genuine socialists inside of SF.

I think they would be better off elswwhere but i have more in common with them then i will ever have with orangephile "trotskyists".

having said that, i think sf as an organisation is settling into the political mainstream, to the left of labour, but firmly in the bourgeois fold.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:17 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

...more looking to start a row. I'll happily debate the issue, or any issue, with people who don't lapse into wanton sectarianism or childish name-calling. I don't get to see a lot of debate on Indymedia.

Out of curiosity, what American foreign policy initiatives has Sinn Féin backed in exchange for all this money? None of which comes from the American Government.

by Chekov Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:07

"if sf can con big business into giving them donations then more power to them."

Would you say the same about FF? Remember these are transactions, not donations. Something is being bought and sold and business expects its return on investment, just like with all investments. It's no coincidence that when Liam Cosgrave says "yes I got donations but no they didn't influence my rezoning votes", nobody believes him.

I'm not suggesting that SF are getting significant donations from big business, I don't have a clue where their cash comes from, just pointing out that Pat's line looks very much like double standards.

Also, Justin, when people start throwing the 'middle class' slander against the SWP et al, it generally means that they have run out of arguments.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:04 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

You want to be paid for writing for APRN? Madness. When I was a sub-editor there my pay for an eight hour shift until 10pm was a Chinese. Not a bad Chinese mind you, but a Chinese. We could pay you in coupons redeemable when the republic is set up?

by pat c Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:20

Once again my views are in demand! Well if you had done a more thorough search you would have fopund the following. (How about the column, Justin?)

to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
by pat c Mon, Apr 7 2003, 9:37am

sorry for delay in replying, i generally take a break from indy at weekends. too busy with non-virtual actions.

yes, i do think SF are wrong to meet with Bush & Blair at this time.

This gives Bush & Blair an opportunity to present themselves as peacemakers. SF could have disrupterd this by refusing to attend the meeting. In those circumstances the SDLP would also have been embarassed into a boycott.

at present the abscence of the DUP from the talks would merely have turned it into The Tempest without Caliban; but a SF snub would make it Hamlet without the Prince.

I appreciate that SF will be protesting outside and giving a letter of protest inside; but they are handing a propaganda coup to BUsh & Blair.

They will be presented to the World Media as Peacemakers.

'GHQ' Document
by pat c Mon, Apr 7 2003, 9:45am

No idea if any of the people named hold the positions alleged. But one thing needs to clarified.

Slab is certainly not a "Millionaire Smuggler".

He may well (allegedly) have raised millions for the Republican Movement through smuggling activities.

Will Pat C comment on the donations?
by Hilda Robinson Mon, Apr 7 2003, 11:14am

Will Pat please make his opinions known on the donations detailed above. In my opinion, I've no problem with a party getting donations off their members, including substantial dontations from salary of their TDs, MPs, etc.

However to get donations off US big business is particularly sick in SF's case as they claim to be anti-imperialist. These companies are the people who have funded Buch et al, they are the people togain from the war on Iraq.

Pat C will you please comment.

fair dues to them!
by pat c Mon, Apr 7 2003, 6:54pm

if sf can con big business into giving them donations then more power to them.

but i think the truth of the matter is that the donations are collected in much smaller amounts.

gee, do i detect some envy on the part of some people?

btw
by pat c Mon, Apr 7 2003, 6:57pm

Justin

Seeing as my opinion on SF matters is so much in demand perhaps you give me a column in An Phoblacht?

Normal NUJ freelance rates natctch.

Pat

by Hebe Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:14

Yes, there were more than 80 protestors , a lot of them SF & non SWP-SP. Interesting though that you had to bus people in to do the heckling.

As for cutbacks, the SP can give a few lessons regarding that. In Liverpool Council, Militant introduced cutbacks in Schools & Health & sacked workers.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:06 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

...was not mine. But thanks to whomever gave notice about the demo.

As for meeting Bush, I don't think it's a good idea personally and disagree with the decision but I can see why the leadership decided to go ahead with it.

As for 'leaving the party', to do what? Join some useless Trot fringe group and waste the rest of my life? Or try to live my life according to what a few people obsessed with being more radical than each other decree. Some moron said we needed to redeem ourselves in his eyes despite opposing us time and time again. We're not about redeeming ourselves to our opponents. We're about delivering for ouor support base.

Christ, when I heard we were meeting Bush I was disgusted but having read the politically neanderthal comments on it from the revolutionary middle class I'm half disposed to support it on the basis that if such rank idiocy is opposed to it, it must be a good thing.

by Cat P Tue Apr 08, 2003 10:05

Pat C's silence on SF meeting George Bush in the middle of the war is unbelievable. He dies not condemn SF's actions, he supports them getting cash of US Imperialists. Pat C is very quick to attack the SP for no apparent reason, but when it comes to SF blantently showing up thie hypocrisy Pat doesn't write a thing on Indymedia.

by Irony is dead Tue Apr 08, 2003 09:17

Killian says 'SF have been put in a extraordinarily difficult position ' Only SF have put themselves there. Being anti-imperialist means being consistent, not shaking the bloodied hand on the President of the biggest imperial power on the planet. What possible difference will the 10mins allocated to Adams with Bush do to anything? On the other hand think what would have happen if they refuse to meet and then call on other parties in the North to do the same. The heckling McLaughlin got was well deserved. The price will be paid by SF.

by King Mob Tue Apr 08, 2003 02:19

Killian mind explaining EXACTLY what meeting with Bush is going to do to help the peace process.

Or anything Bush has done for the process

by Killian Forde Tue Apr 08, 2003 00:53

SF have been put in a extraordinarily difficult position and have handled this well, it is vital that the political mandate given to the party is carried through, that being to help sustain and ultimatley deliver a long term peace on republicians terms for the island.

They have shown leadership and maturity in dealing with this visit by refusing to become distracted with the calls of futile and potentially peace process damaging boycott of the the bush/blair/ahern meetings.

The easy and populist option which would have been to look at the polls on the island and refuse to attend this 'summit'.

SF are consistently accused of populism and opportunism, the stand and appraoch taken since friday proves to the self titled 'real socialist' of this island that this is quite clearly not the case.

Perhaps that is the real reason that these activists are so upset.

Sinn Fein have not and never will jump to other peoples agenda be they; the president of the usa, british prime minister or grubby ucd students toying with marxism during their early 20's.

Congradulations to Mitchel Mc Laughlin of his speech tonight.

by Paddy X Mon Apr 07, 2003 22:12

Adams and Ahern perform the same role the puppet government, installed by the US, will perform in Iraq: give legitimacy to the subjugation of their country to Anglo-American imperialism

by Kev Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:52

Ex SFer, what have you done since you left the party? Do you have any opposition group I could consider?
Thanx

by ex Sf member Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:34

If SF members are seriously pissed off with their leaderships line on this issue and with some of the other right wing policies of the leadership why don't you leave the party or at least get serious and establish an oppositional group within SF.

by radical voice Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:31

You're right there kev, I think the republicans are no longer the 'radical' voice in Irish society anymore. The fact is that Socialists (in that i include SP SWP WSM etc.)are now.

by Kev Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:23

Last newsclip I saw showed far more than 80 people protesting in fact loads of people coming off the many busses. Sour grapes on your part Hebe sounds like you don't know what you're talking about even SFers in the north are very upset about this. Not good combined with the moves the IRA are about to make ending it all. So I can understand you feeling antsy and taking potshots at the socialists who are replacing republicans as the radical voice in this country. Sad days for you.

by Sf hater Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:06

Sinn Fein have a massive support base in the north. If SF are anti war why did they not mobilise this support base against the war? Why have SF not called and built for strike action to oppose this war and particularly the visit of Blair. If they were to do so and it was successfull (although this would be impossible given SF's sectarian approach to protestant workers) it would be a big blow to British imperialism and give a big boost to the anti war movement in Britain and internationally.

SF are not really anti war, they are just putting on this face in order to get a bit of cred as everyone is agianst this war and it would harm them at the polls if they were in support of the war.

by Justa Moron - Sinn Fail Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:03

Well fair play to Dubya, coming to this island when his men(and women too)are busy liberating Baghdad from the dictator. Adams had shown great strategic skill in cultivating political friendships with, for example, Peter King. Although, on social issues, Congressman King is a follower of Mrs. Thatcher, but he is friend of Ireland and a really nice guy. Thanks to Adams' American contacts we how have Dubya on this island, advancing the peace process, and proactively opening a tremendous window of opportunity for everyone on this island, North and South.

by Khalid Mon Apr 07, 2003 20:01

So hebe are you saying that the SP and thw SWP do not oppose US imperialism?

SF do not oppose US imperialism at all. They actually believe that US imperialism can play a positive role in the peace process!! They are completely mistaken. The reality is that SF are not opposed to imperialism all they are opposed to is the British brand of it.

How can anyone claim that SF are anti imperialist when they cozy up to the US establishment given any oppurtunity? How can you say they are anti imperialists when they implement neo liberal policies when given the chance to do so? Remember, SF have introduced bin charges, closed hospitals, privitised schools and engaged in a needless dispute with term time workers. At least when the SP get a position they use it to attack the capitalists and stand up for working class people, when SF get positions they use them for their own personal gain and prestige.

by Jim Costello Mon Apr 07, 2003 19:55

Adams is giving legitimacy to Bush's attack on Iraq. Sinn Fein, like Fianna Fail, is cooperating fully with Anglo-American imperialism's plan for Ireland. Bush/Blair are pushing the Irish 'peace process' as a model for imperial settlement: total absorption of the economy into the imperial structure, and peace on their terms, while the country remains a colony of the imperial power. Sinn Fein now want to have it both ways,-like Fianna Fail before them, running with the resistance hare while hunting with the dogs of imperialism. Lets expose this hypocrisy.

by Hebe Mon Apr 07, 2003 19:47

All 50 SWP and 30 SP members in the North are going to do some loud heckling?

I dont think SF are correct to meet with Bush but at least they are telling him to his face that he is wrong.

by Justin watcher Mon Apr 07, 2003 19:41

Will he call for a strike to stop the war and will he call upon his party not to meet Bush tomorrow? And will he answer why SF have not mobilised properly for these demonstrations?

If he does these two things he will redeem himself in my view.

by Kev Mon Apr 07, 2003 19:16

Which he knows will happen to ANY SF rep that shows his face and attempts to speak at the rally. Poor Mitch, always getting shafted.

by zzzzzzzzzzzz Mon Apr 07, 2003 19:12

Adams inside, McLaughlin outside