indymedia: GROW UP

by Ray Thu May 09, 2002 13:56

...when some people are only interested in clawing their way to the front.
(and you should have a look at UK indymedia if you think Ireland is the only place where people criticise the SWP)

by whoever Thu May 09, 2002 14:05

in the countries you name they don't have the SWP. indymedia.uk's newswire is full of postings by people totally pissed off with the SWP. just go and check.
and if you have a point then make it.
but this is useless. are the people who complain about the SWP telling lies? then respond and correct them. but you can't stop people from expressing their feelings and ideas.
indymedia.ie is brilliant. we all love it.

by Mairead Smalley Thu May 09, 2002 14:12

Criticisms - by all means but when it gets to the stage that you would swear the SWP beat up everyone on Monday - whats the story?
GR call for a demo against police brutality, whats wrong with that?
They make it perfectly and publicly clear (on the front cover of the IT today)that they didn't organise the RTS party.
Did anyone stop to think of how much the mainstream media mess all the facts on all demos up that they might not get that someone from GR could talk about RTS without assuming that GR was RTS or whatever? So why believe them now?

Is SWP the real enemy? Please no posts that you will be shot come the revolution 'cos how do know?

by Markos Thu May 09, 2002 14:28

This should be a great celebration for Indymedia instead of a fractious squabble. Photos and footage have been noticed and adopted by the mainstream media and caused a political furore. would that have happened if the footage had not been there?

I agree. There should be celebration on this site of a major success.

Mark

by Everyone Thu May 09, 2002 14:30

So now you blame the mainstream media. Who run around and phoned the media to get interviewed? Joe Carolan (SWP/GR).
Is him so stupid that he doesn't know about media manipulations? Now that would be worrying.
We prefer to believe that it was yet another cynical operation masterminded by those who hide in the dark of the SWP Central Committee.

by Ray Thu May 09, 2002 14:30

If you follow the link you'll see a report from someone who was contacted by about a dozen reporters, all of whom had been told by Joe Carolan that GR/SWP was one of the organisers of Monday's protest. They didn't 'make it clear' that they weren't involved - they were found out.

And the problem with calling the demo in the first place is that it was called without any consultation - GR/SWP just decided to go ahead with it, even though they'd had nothing to do with organising the RTS, and were barely even there on Monday.

The SWP didn't beat anyone up on Monday, no-one's suggesting that they did. What people are annoyed about are the SWP's attempts to take over the issue.

(By the way, if anyone is still maintaining that the SWP and GR are completely seperate entities with all decisions being made by GR meetings, perhaps they could tell me which GR meeting called the press conference on Tuesday?)

by saortinn Thu May 09, 2002 14:32

db has many points of note, and perhaps a hangover or something else that has irked him?
db, why dont you start one of these tactical or practical discussions?. It's slightly hypocritical to use valuable space to criticise those on the left who use valuable space for criticism of those on the left.

on the other hand discussion is valuable.

by Andrew Thu May 09, 2002 14:38

The SWP don't beat up protesters today because they are in no position to. They are however leninists and in power lenin killed, jailed and exiled tens of thousands of 'protesters'. Todays SWP hold this up as a model!

From Socialism from Below in The Russian Revolution

In 1922 after seeing the product of the Russian revolution first hand, Emma Goldman described how "Soviet Russia had become the modern socialist Lourdes". Eighty years after the revolution in Russia a reflection on that period has more than just historical value. Many left wing organisations still hold up this era as the model for future revolution. In order to challenge this Bolshevik conception of organisation and revolution we look at what the consequences of this model were.

The Bolsheviks organised as a vanguard party, which intended to lead the revolution. This structure lead to particular outcomes and a look at the 'hidden' history of the Russian Revolution illustrates this. Lenin in State and Revolution talks of a society where every cook shall govern. But in reality the party in its capacity of leader of the revolution was governing. By November 9th 1917 a soviet in the Peoples Commissars of Posts & Telegraphs had already been abolished by decree. Even earlier than this, the revolution having barely liberated the workers from wage slavery, Bolshevik leaders were telling workers that "the best way to support Soviet Government is to carry on with ones job".

Lenin in March 1918 wrote that the party relates to workers by leading "them along the true path of labour discipline, along the task of coordinating the task of arguing at mass meetings about the conditions of work with the task of unquestioningly obeying the will of the soviet leader, of the dictator during the work". So much for every cook governing. These are not just isolated incidents. The party soon began to institutionalise its dominance, for instance factory committees instead of being allowed to form federations had to report to undemocratic bodies which were hand picked by the party. It is in this context that Daniel Guerin argued that "In fact the power of the soviets only lasted a few months, from October 1917 to the spring of 1918."
How the Bolsheviks did go about 'securing' the revolution? Trotsky as leader of the Red Army reintroduced bourgeois army discipline, not only including executions for desertion but also all the petty regulations like saluting that gave officers special positions. He abolished election of officers writing "The elective basis is politically pointless and technically inexpedient and has already been set aside by decree". The White Terror was responded to with collective punishments, categorical punishments, torture, hostage taking and random punishments, these were not just directed at known 'Whites' but also at their friends and families. On the 3rd of September 1918, Ivestia announced that over 500 hostages had been shot by the Petrograd Cheka, not because they had committed a crime but because they were unlucky enough to come from the wrong background.

Some will argue that this terror was legitimised by the White Terror. But the terror by April of 1918 was to be used against political groups that supported the revolution but opposed Bolshevik rule. Over two days in April 1918 40 anarchists were killed or wounded and around 500 put in prison in a series of attacks in Moscow and Petrograd. All the major anarchist publications were banned in May 1918. This despite the fact that anarchists had fought for the revolution in October, four anarchists being on the MRC which coordinated the rising. Over the next four years, hundreds then thousands of anarchists were to be arrested, jailed, tortured, exiled and executed. Other pro-revolution left parties suffered a similar faith and by 1919 so did workers who acted independently against the regime.
Bolshevik modes of organisation have particular outcomes, the centralisation of power. This sort of organisation means that 'Stalin didn't fall from the moon' but was the inheritor of this undemocratic organisation. This is in opposition to 'Socialism from Below' and the motto of the First International, "The emancipation of the toilers must be the work of the toilers themselves" and not the work of some 'vanguard' party.

Was This You?

Bogush was one of the anarchists of Russian origin deported from the USA in 1921 for his part in opposing the imperialist slaughter of world war one. Soon after arriving he went to see the area controlled by the Makhnovists at a time when they were in their third treaty with the Bolsheviks. He was a few hours there when the Bolsheviks for the third time betrayed this treaty, attacking the Makhnovists without warning. He immediately returned to Krakov where he was arrested by the Cheka, and shot in March of 1921.

Lenin on Socialism from Below
"The irrefutable experience of history has shown that the dictatorship of individual persons was very often the vehicle, the channel of the dictatorship of the revolutionary classes"

"...our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it"

"Socialism is merely the next step forward from state capitalist monopoly. ...socialism is merely state capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly"

The Anarchist Alternative
....We believe, in fact, that in a time of social revolution, what is important for the workers is for them to organise their new life themselves, from the bottom, and with the help of their immediate economic organisations, and not from above, by means of an authoritarian political centre

Trotsky on Socialism from Below
"The very principle of compulsory labour is for the Communist quite unquestionable .. . the only solution to economic difficulties that is correct from the point of view both of principle and of practice is to treat the population of the whole country as the reservoir of the necessary labour power - an almost inexhaustible reservoir - and to introduce strict order into the work of its registration, mobilisation and utilisation".

"I consider that if the civil war had not plundered our economic organs of all that was strongest, most independent, most endowed with initiative, we should undoubtedly have entered the path of one-man management in the sphere of economic administration much sooner and much less painfully"
1920, War Communism & Terrorism

"the working class...must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded just like soldiers. Deserters from labour ought to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps"
to the 9th Party Congress, 1920

In attacking an internal faction of the Bolshevik Party at the 10th Party Congress in 1921 he accused them of
"having placed the workers right to elect representatives above the party. As if the party were not entitled to assert its dictatorship even if that dictatorship temporarily clashed with the passing moods of the workers democracy."

more at
http://struggle.ws/russia.html

by Gino - SWP Cork Thu May 09, 2002 14:39 corkswp at yahoo dot com

All,

looking at all the posts since last Mondays events, I couldn't believe the level of bile poured out against us, we have our faults but we our not the enemy. It reminds me of Section 31 for Indymedia.ie. The concept of Indymedia is brilliant and proved itself in this country by Mondays events, where the details of the attacks (photos/videos/audio) were posted here for all to see and the cops couldn't control the truth getting out, now the world/Ireland knows how the cops have always behaved away from the cameras, in their stations and out in the housing estates. Like I alluded to in another mail, this was like the role Indymedia in Palestine undertook to expose the Jenin attacks when the mainstream press was expelled. Lets keep that in mind.

The sad counterface to this was the gossip network that has attached itself to this network, especially against the SWP and others. Some observations are vital but it is for us to correct ourselves. This is our Genoa and the pressure must be kept up on the cops with no stupid things happening. Just like in Italy there will be attempts by undercover agents to stir things up so be careful tonight.

Regards

G

by Here we go again Thu May 09, 2002 14:47

In Genoa nobody tried to hijack the protest.
People have no problems with Joe Higgins making statements or any other group or party protesting.
It's your disgusting behaviour wthat has pissed people off.
Respond to the points people make if you can,
but don't give us that crap about sectarianism and gossip. People are free to express their feelings and ideas. If you don't like this, you can read Socialist Worker. You'll never find any dissenting voice there.

by Andrew Thu May 09, 2002 14:53

So Geno you like the fact that indymedia means the "cops couldn't control the truth getting out" but don't like the fact that it also means the SWP can't control the truth getting out!

And once again we are told that allowing people to publish opinons critical of the SWP is 'Section 31 style censorship'! Makes you wonder what we would be allowed to say and write in the unlikely event of the SWP ever being in power.

by blisset Thu May 09, 2002 14:58

To top poster - if you think the site is not covering things you think are important then cover them yourself - publish them - open publishing system in operation - and join the mailing lists and get involved in making it better.

Gino -section 31 for swp on indymedia.ie. -Bullshit. Members of SWP regularly use the site and some of them have been involved from when it was set up.
It is disingenuous to suggest that it is operating as a gossip network.

I see nothing here about peioples sex lives social lives etc.

There is a political debate taking place about the role of the SWP in the Irish Left. I personally think the debate is healthy. Sure beats apathy And open to SWP to contribute too.

by Anti-Capatalist / Humanitarian Thu May 09, 2002 15:00

Absolutely agree. The attacks on the SWP are becoming sickening. I accept that this is an issue which seemingly needs to be addressed........but lets focus on the fecking enemy - CAPATLISM, EXPLOITATION, INEQUALITY, ABUSE OF POWER (as we have all tragically witnessed first hand) THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PEOPLE OF THIS PLANET AND THE VERY PLANET ITSELF.

Whatever you can say about he SWP, they are on the same side and fighting all these issues for feck sake! And they are fighting "extremely" hard. Most of it is all voluntary.

So for feck sake lets stop beating up people who are on the same side of all of us. If there are issues to be raised, raise them, but keep it in context and proportion.

This is not a "competition" of who changes the world first. For a start we will be lucky if it ever changes properly. And if it does, it does not matter who does it as long as it IS DONE!

:)

by Gino - SWP Cork Thu May 09, 2002 15:10

I was completely wrong to suggest any connection or otherwise to Section 31. And I don't mean that as an after thought. I apologize and retract that statement.

Sincerely,

G

by Eoin Dubsky Thu May 09, 2002 15:17 eoin at greensoc dot org

New Categories are in the pipelines for the Indymedia.ie website. These will allow visitors to read only the news they are interested in. If you don't want to read "about SWP" (an example category of news stories), then you won't have to.
Just click on "Housing" or "War/Terror" or "International" or whatever.

I hope this will help filter out the SWP bashing, so that only those who enjoy doing/reading that sort of thing will have to endure it.

by Enough Thu May 09, 2002 15:33

There is something called freedom of expression. If you can't take it, read Socialist Worker. A lot of people see no difference in the behaviour of SWP/GR and FF, FG, etc.. You might not like it, but that's the way it is.
You can't force us to be on your side.
Still, the debate is open(funny how SWP people never make any real point).

by Stephen Rigney Thu May 09, 2002 16:33

We need to stop complaining about GR/SWP for the moment. Tonight is about Police brutality, not any political organisation. Fair enough, GR/SWP have called it, maybe for their own benefit but put aside their agenda and go there, not for them but to protest against the Gardai Siochana.

by Patrick Fri May 10, 2002 11:59

The SWP are up a creek because the Leninist project relies toO heavily on the supPosed will of the working class to liberate itself (so they coiuld be enslAved by the neo-bolsheviks!). Thats the real reason I hate them cos they talk about our class like they aRe some sort of drugged, inert mass who only need the right prompting to sweep their fuckin comissars into power