Reckon 40,000 is a good guesstimate / Best RTS Ever against War today

by hopespringseternal Fri Apr 04, 2003 11:49

Relax there ordinary non aligned protester. I think it's great and important to remember that lots of people who are against this war are ordinary joe soaps, holding down office jobs and who are definately non aligned. That pretty much defines me.

But the discussion, and it's the best, most opened minded one on indymedia I have ever read, is about how best to use the energy and passion that people have against this war, instead of squandering it by marching us up and down between embassies.

The question is, are people marching against the war to demonstrate they are against it (cos if so, why? the state doesn't care about your "feelings"), or because they want to stop the state's complicit participation in it (if so, we gotta do more than march)?

Marching is for armies.

by Intransigent Tue Apr 01, 2003 19:33

Direction seems to be required mr/ms .

by Ordinary non-aligned protester Tue Apr 01, 2003 03:22

Who do you people think you are? Split them into 10,000 or 300 to do this or that!! If I go on a march I'm not going to be used as cannon fodder by any left-wing group - and that includes you!

by Omar Ahmed - SWP (personal capacity) Tue Apr 01, 2003 01:11

If we split people up into too many tiny groups it just means that one group is gonna be picked off by the cops and more than likely get themselves a severe beating. Groups of 300 far too small. Time to think big. We have 10000 blocking dame st or o connell bridge for couple of hours. That will cause chaos. 300 people walking up grafton st and they'll be swamped by shoppers!

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Mon Mar 31, 2003 19:21

Great to see some REAL ISSUES raised as oppossed to the usual sectarian whinging
- for me a march represents a massive potential source of energy and its a good question
- simple mass action that large numbers could back?
- one idea that seems to work on Sunday - lets become a nuisance march very, very, very slowly and in small bands. How about a march of 15,000 (my estimate of the REAL number on Saturday) spliting into 50 groups of 300 and having lots of marches on lots of routes and how about it taking a full day instead of a couple of hours!
How about organised sound systems at lots of venues!
lets stop businees as usual !
This is just one thought that occured to me on Saturday - it could be a stupid one - feel free to come up with better.
Calling huge numbers onto the strets marching them around like the grand old duke of york and then having an hour or more of speeches about who is the chair of the irish anti war movement or the same people trying to convince you that you are against the war when you already are is deflating!
Its not just me or Ciran o reilly that think this - thousands started wandering off from gov buildings almost as soon as the speeches began! If the IAWM can mobilise such large numbers why not try and persuad them to do something interesting, peaceful and participatory

mean time wedensday's day of action seems like a great idea to me - I'm prepared to get behind it and see - (from past experience I'm also prepared for disappointment but lets just see)

Conor

by Sylvia Pankhurst Mon Mar 31, 2003 18:29

Boycott Top Oil, picket Top Oil stations asking people to boycott them, leaflet the areas in which
they supply home heating oil asking people to boycott them.

by depp Mon Mar 31, 2003 15:03

Is there anything even simpler?? .

I think this is very important, because it has to be admitted that the marches only go so far, and there is a deflation (for me at least) at the end of one.

The numbers might start to decline at the marches, and the only thing the media really is interested in is 'how many were there?'

What else will 150,000 people do other than march?
Write a letter? To who?
Boycott .... who? Someone big, widespread....
Send an email, make a phone call..... ??

-------------
(Should a well organised National March be held outside of Dublin? If so where?)

by Joe Mon Mar 31, 2003 14:40

No one has been jailed (as opposed to arrested) for tresspassing at Shannon airport so its something that 150,000 could do with minimum risk. I don't think there are any 0 risk effective actions that are likely (a general strike maybe?) because the state outlaws any ways of calling it to account.

by depp Mon Mar 31, 2003 14:33

What is the most effective thing that the MASSES can do?

Something that 150,000 might do, something they can be told to do before they leave the march?

Obviously , as of now at least, 150,000 are not going to risk imprisonment...... not risk going to jail.

Something simple but effective when tens of thousands do it .........

Everyone can individually, or within their own groups, continue to do any other action they please.

The tens of thousands are in great need of another STEP/ACTION........

WHAT?

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Dublin Catholic Worker/Ploughshares Mon Mar 31, 2003 04:44

Dear Pseudonym,

Very difficult to decipher what your problem is here?, what your position is here? and why you are bothering to enter the discourse beyond therapeutic venting reason..maybe you should be dealing with your parents etc.

Hardly a "lecture", we are generally blacklisted from platforms...to hip for the straights to straight for the hips, too fluffy for the spikeys too spikey for the fluffies....we daily stand vigilling at the GPO and dialogue with 3D people outta cyberspace maybe (if you really exist) you'd like to pop in 4-5 Mon-Fri and we could dialogue there....I don't think we've asked anyone to fundraise, but if you are as tight as your prejudices we won't hold our breath.

We are a resistance community, resisting the war and have moved beyond protest...if you can't enter a dialogue you are left with this vent you have offered that keeps us guessing what your problem is, what your position is etc etc

You really haven't given me much to respond to so best leave it there. For a small underresourced group we seem to be having an impact...ask the U.S. Ambassador for a reference.

We don't think we have the one size fits all response, but we have an analysis of how movements have gone in the past, how they are co-opetd and killed off.
Thanx for sharing
Ciaron

by Anti-war activist Mon Mar 31, 2003 02:45

I'm really sick of Ciaron O'Reilly and his band of muppets lecturing the rest of us on how to oppose this war and FF/PD collaboration. Ciaron, you have no idea how to build a mass movement - you're the NVDA version of the IRA. You and a tiny minority do the 'business' (what exactly are you planning??) and the rest of us are supposed to provide a support network, fundraise for you, and cheer you through your various court cases. Fuck off. This movement (believe it or not) is bigger than your ego.

by Omar Ahmed - SWP (personal capacity) Mon Mar 31, 2003 01:41

Now I was careful when I put up my comment to provide an analysis of every party including my own. I did not engage in sectarian swipes. Why mention SF and SWP only as if they are the only party on a recruitment drive. Do you not think that the purpose behind political parties is to get more people to think like them and therefore join. Should we not criticise Labour or the SP for their attempts at recruitment? What about Fine Gael jumping from side to side? Telling people not to march on Feb 15 then against US in Shannon and then jumping back to US on economic issues! There is a real problem that does need to be addressed with the anti war movement in this country. It's phenomenal lack of ineffectiveness. Ahern has not listened to one thing we have said. Since 150000 marhced against this war on Feb 15 he has through the 'democracy' of the Dail giving permission to US military froces to continue their use of shannon, thus putting ourselves firmly behing the "coalition of the willing." Are we pro peace or anti war? Do you really think we can live with dictators like Saddam or Bush? Do you really believe that these people can be stopped peacefully? Or do you believe that the will of the people really has no effect? If so the anti war movement in this country will continue of its current aimless path.

by Bob Nowlan - Americans Against American Imperialism Sun Mar 30, 2003 23:23

Great work -- impressive turnout, spirit, and photos (29-3-03); don't ever give up, don't despair -- your efforts and those around the world continue to inspire us to fight on as hard as we can in the heart of the empire. Sooner or later we will together bring about the change the world demands.

by fiddling around Sun Mar 30, 2003 22:17

Ciaron hit the nail directly on the head when he talked about groups such as Sinn Fein and the SWP etc
"using the war as a marketing opportubity for the aspirations of their parties, groups, personal advancement or are they serious " People are beginning to see through these parties finally.

by munchkin(eater) Sun Mar 30, 2003 19:13 erratic_chicken at hotmail dot com

april 12th is the protest in shannon right? are there buses organised for people who want to go to it yet, or do you have to sort something out for yourself?
just wondering...

thanks.

by with the editor Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:11

angrier than thou
holier than thou

last week the government came under more pressure in this country than in my lifetime
ashen faced ministers on TV
Dev's Offspring shamed publically and ashen faced
ceremonies for the death of Neutrality on their Doorsteps
Minister for Justice had to make his office physically disappear before it was attacked
the taoiseach in hiding
Many others confronted and publically shamed
Protests growing as a war begins instead of falling off as they are supposed to
Senators saluting the bravery of Iraqis Fighting the coalition
People taking responsibility for what is broadcast and making their voice about shannon louder than ever
Boycott taking place in the Irish Way
Boycott is used by international Protesters/campaigners as a tactic against products
The original meaning is a tactic against people
Captain Boycott is a character from Irish History
Boycott means to shun a person and refuse trade or any social intercourse with that person - isolate them
this is happening bigtime

Say something positive you guys
instead of

Audio terrorists good on them - Taking control of the world around them to give people hope and pleasure to balance their anger
Black Pope - good on him - how many have signed the NVCD pledge now?

I am Radical - You are Not
I am Brave and Holy - you are not
Does not cut it

Many yesses one no

by Ciaron O'Reilly - Pit Stop PLoughshares/DCW Sun Mar 30, 2003 04:58

Yep, there's a general lack of direction. Those who condemned nonviolent resistance when it happened (Jan./Feb.) are now using it as a rhetorical flourish in speeches at these marches....with no practical next steps suggested. The movement has to get over thinking it is mass if everyone is in the same place at the same time surrounded by cops.

What we could have done with is resistance centres in Limerick/Shannon Derry/Raytheon, Dublin/the political centre .....offering basic training in nonviolent direct action, doing follow up legal support and prison solidarity.

If 1% of folks who marched on the 15th. were prepared to engage in nonviolent resistance, refuse bail etc and the rest of the 99% proactively supported them (financially, emotionally, fed the cat etc.)....we would be giving the state major tension....that not one FF TD voted against the continued use of Shannon points to the powers that be feeling no tensioon at all while providing significant infrastructure to the war machine.

People seriously have to examine whether they are merely using the war as a marketing opportubity for the aspirations of their parties, groups, personal advancement or are they serious about nonviolently resisting this war.

Send a postcard to Karen Fallon c/- Limerick Prison Limerick
She's in there for us, we're on the loose for her!

by Omar Ahmed - SWP Sun Mar 30, 2003 01:49 [email protected]

Todays walk about town served to show up the IAWM, PANA, NGO as grossly ineffective. We have walked to empty buildings and heard empty speeches over and over again. Do we honestly believe that talking about this war will stop it? These playful anti war/pro peace protests have become fun days out for the liberal middle classes, a day for all the family. We complain about direct action??? It will turn people away??? How do you equate the deaths of thousands of innocent Arabs to a bit of paint on a building, a plane having it's nose damaged? We have lost sight of what the ultimate goal of this movement should be: stopping this war! Actions speak louder than words rings through my head. Can we take ourselves seriously if we trapse about the city centre one more time to hear yet more recycled speeches from hypocritical TD's, IAWM speakers who have lost themselves in a movement and little children! I witnessed today the way that parties which may have been considered far left becoming nothing more than Labour party spin offs. The Sparts are the only crazies left. A re-read of Lenin's 'Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder' may be required? The Socialist party ever more sectarian, constantly introducing themselves as 'Socialist Party, Joe Higgins TD'!!!! The Socialist Workers' Party the vibrant, angry anti capitalists, supposed vanguard of the working class afraid to engage in the mass civil disobedience that they so love to preach! The Labour Party always compromising with those in government, and of course loving peace and no type of direct action in any shape or form thank you very much! Sinn Fein 'Tiocfaidh Ar La'? Wake up lads preaching socialism and then becoming part of a policing board therefore becoming an intricate part of the state?!? And all you various anarchists out there. The Audio Terrorists against the war, Workers' Solidarity Movement, Idiot man with the megaphone. We will not dance this war away. It is not a game. You guys don't even smash up stuff like your brothers and sisters are doing right now throughout the world! What kind of anarchists are you and don't tell me that stuff is happening at Shannon? Do we want to stop this war or do we want to become professional protestors and have nice family days out in the city centre? If you really wanted to stop the war and stop Fianna Fail/PD collaboration in this war then you would realise that the current state that the protests in this country are pointless. You may as well not bother coming! Do you think that this government is listening to you? I know what I got out of the march today: absolutely nothing (that's me chanting about how great the march was). I predict the death of the anti war movement in this country if this unorganised, unprofessional, pointless marching continues.

by sniper Sun Mar 30, 2003 01:23

It sounds like iosaf the muppet .....

by meme Sat Mar 29, 2003 23:57

Does this not sound familiar:
"The idea of a moderate, humanitarian, Christian People's party has been blown away," he told El Mundo newspaper. "The Spanish people have the right to expect their government to keep them away from all wars ... Bush's policies are so detestable that we should keep well away."

His words followed a slow drip-drip of resignations that include a former minister and several lower ranking party members.

Ministers are now shadowed by groups of protesters. People's party offices up and down the country are being vandalised or plastered with anti-war graffiti.

by infinite justice Sat Mar 29, 2003 22:37

So how serious are you guys about the Nuremberg Charter .... or are you just a bunch of wusses ?

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/gallery/pg18/pg8/pg18867.html