IRISH TIMES COMMENTS ON RTS - INTERESTING READING

by blisset Wed May 08, 2002 19:07

These 'tough guy' Gardaí, baton-charging a group of self-proclaimed pacifists are the same Gardaí who are nowhere to be seen on our streets when the true enemies of the city speed around in stolen cars, indiscriminately attack pedestrians and generally have the run of the place without interferance.
LB, Dublin, Ireland

I know there is talk of the RUC (they haven't gone away you know -and still wearing the RUC uniform in Kosovo)going on the beat(sic)with the Garda but I didn't think it had started already. Hibernoass states that without leadership young men can be worked up to a frenzy..trouble with that excuse is was the coordinated law enforcers who with leadership riotted and not the masses of street occupiers. No Garda was injured. The Garda who flipped out should be taken off the streets and publically disiplined
naithi, Ireland

Nice to see the "big thick mick" is still alive and well and given the open arms of oppurtunity to stick on the hat and throw the head. Another paradoxical sentiment that sheds sadistic ambience over the colourful culture I once loved , left and still funnily enough, miss. Cop on ??
archie menendez, mexico

The world we live in thankfully allows people to march peacefully to let out of touch jurassic politicans know what the real concerns of the people are. The role of the police force is to allow peaceful marches, and to hel them be peaceful. The Garda Siochana, mirroring the outdated policies of thier politicians to a tee, took their stand on this march: they would not allow it. That is not the police force of a 21st century European democracy but of a 20th century non democratic Chile. Cop on cops!

Patrick Hennessy
Patrick Hennessy, Thailand

I agree with HibernoMoose: there's no reason why some of the Patten reforms, particularly with regard to community policing, shouldn't be implemented in the South as well. In fact, most police forces or services (the distinction between "force" and "service" being one of the biggest conceptual hurdles) around the world could improve themselves by taking a read of Patten and having a good long think at what they're doing wrong.

RMJ's "beat them senseless, it's the only way" approach indicates to me that she or he has never been involved in so much as a scuffle with any police, let alone a demonstration turned violent or, God forbid, a riot.

Whatever force a police officer applies in such circumstances would be met with equal and opposite force. Demonstrations tend to remain peaceful when the protestors aren't being prodded, poked, pushed and verbally abused by the a "police service" that makes it very clear to the protestors that it believes they are the scum of the earth.

RMJ - decades of the "harshest possible terms" and centuries of gun ownership haven't exactly solved the problem of crime in the US, have they? No, in fact, such a stance has exacerbated the problem exponentially. And you're asking us to import this failed approach to Ireland?

Secondly, protestors are not a race apart from "ordinary people", nor are they "thugs". This debate was had in Australia recently when a group of anti-concentration camp protestors managed to free a dozen or so refugees from Woomera camp in South Australia.

The media rather predictably whipped up a furore claiming the protestors were "unemployable louts", "thugs" "dole bludgers" and other stereotypes.

A letter from the protestors revealed them to mainly be middle-class professionals, teachers, and ordinary manual workers. RMJ's belief in a society of "ordinary people" besieged by some type of unemployed animal element is flawed apartheid, and an approach that supports the stereotyping of almost anyone who does not fit into the mould of white, middle class suburbanite.
Chris, Australia (ex-Derry)

This case just highlights the increasing polarisation in society. It has become all too easy to cry foul even when the blame rests with the accusing party.

People do have the right to protest, absolutely no doubt, but what right do they have to interrupt other peoples lives. People going about their daily lives should be free to do so, they shouldn't be held up in extreme traffic jams, they shouldn't have to listento potentially offensive rhetoric and so on.

Therefore two sets of rights are in contest each and every time a protest occurs, people like the Gardai are invariably the ones caught in the middle. They must decide on the balance of events what to do and when. No matter what decision is taken they will never be right, action means cries of abuse, non action potentially means the destruction of personal and civil property. We know from the closeness of the vote yesterday that Irish people love their property, so what then?.

Finally, this polarisation of society in what are in no way black and white events will continue for the forseeable future. Its perpetuation has been ensured by the likes of Blair, Bush, Sharon who have taken the stance of "if you're not with us you're against us", when political leaders take this view, what hope is their for the rest of us.
Mark, Suisse

On behalf of Youth Defence, I would just like to say, WE TOLD YOU SO!!!

Pearse Street Station appears to be a bit of a bad egg. On two seperate occasions over the past five years Youth Defence members participating in the weekly Street Information Sessions have been arrested and strip-searched in Garda custody at Pearse St. Whay were they searching for? Concealed liturature? Did the media voice our grievance? The IT in its early country edition showed photo of our protest but it was pulled from the city edition.

Then there was the Adelaide Hospital melié where one of our members was hospitalised and nine arrested, only to be convicted and then for that conviction to be overturned.

That particular day was a watershed for me. With aspirations then to become a garda I was shocked to see how at least forty gardaí could decend at the very end of an extremely peaceful protest and lash out with such vigour. And did the media covr it? Are you joking? They don't count, it's only Youth Defence. We were the ones accused of kicking and clubbing the Gardaí. The media only seem to believe the SWPs (reds) of this world.
Culchie, Wicklow

LB, Dublin, Ireland

by b Wed May 08, 2002 19:11

Didn't two of these "nowhere to be seen Gardai" die recently trying to do their job?. Oh, what short memories we have, don't we.

People like you make me sick, first you accuse them of being over the top tough guys, then you say they don't do their job, which is it?.

Oh, by the way, last time I did a reality check I'd say dying in the line of duty was damn good proof that they care about what they do. Maybe you should do one too!.
Mark, Suisse

I voted NO but I am only going on the reports and front page picture in the Irish Times. On the face of it the police are using disproportionate force. However I didn't see and hear whether the police were provoked by violence or property damage.

The Garda authorities should get an investigation going immediately. It should only take days and if any member of the force acted unprofessionally he or she should face appropriate disciplinary action.
John Williams, Ireland

Yes perfectly justified. These thugs have no respect for authority and the Gardai reacted in a professional and adequate manner.
Joan Dingham, Ireland

A very good morning to the lot of ye, since the second grandchild arrived a week early I am glad to be home in Leitrim after a couple of weeks being waited on hand and foot in 5 star hotels.

So we have Dominic in Arizona to add to the growing tribe and of course Hepzi in Idaho. I fully expect to receive the Congressional medal at some future date for my contribution to America. Since I wasnt here on Monday I really shouldnt vote but the good wife says to vote No and so I have. Back to the fields now.
micael, Global Leitrim

These hooligans got what they deserved. They maintain they did nothing wrong...Wheeling a car into the middle of a public road and proceeding to smash it up is NOT the action of a reacefull protest. I don't care if they owned the car, that is a public area, were they going to go around and clean up all the broken glass etc from the road afterwards? Or leave it there for some child to pick up and play with.

Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and expresion, their actions were a repression of other peoples freedom. I was minding my own business trying to pass by and get to where I was going, but these thugs and low lives saw fit to accost me in the street. That is not freedom of speech, thats harrasment.

The Guards had every right to use what minimal force they did use. So a few scumbags got a knock on the noggin, maybe it'll knock some sense into them, and next time they have a "peacefull" protest they might actual manage to keep it peacefull!
Conor, Kildare, Ireland

Here, HibernoMoose, get a grip man! You want to get your facts right ye bleedin' muppet! Non violent my left one!

Them blokes were smashin up a car and shoutin abuse, they were hasselin everyone walkin by, its grand for you to spout off about Ireland when your flamin miles away. These gits were treated too gently by the gards, me an the boys were gonna head down and batter a few o them ourselves.

WE live here all the time, we have rights too.. I have the right not to be pissed off by loud aggresive skangers wreckin my bleedin city! What about that right? What? No answer? Ye Muppet!
Paul, Dublin, Ireland

Oh they were Gardai! I thought they were from a stag party on their way to Temple Bar, in fancy dress.
Declan, England
Judging from history, and the reaction of the police, if you are not a farmer then you have no right to protest in Dublin.

This is the same police force who did the exact same thing on the streets of Dublin (i.e. truncheon people) when the ordinary PAYE worker peacefully protested for just ONE day in the 80s over the unfair tax system that existed in the banana republic of the time.

Every citizen is equal in the eyes of the state…. obviously NOT.
fiona, irl

No it was not justified, Familys in parts of Clondalkin, Tallaght crumlin etc, live in terror of gangs of drug pushing/car robbing kids, Where are the batton charges then? The Garda show there true colours when it comes to beating a load a hippies from one end of town to the other, but when it comes to real criminals where are they? Quite frankly the Garda are just another gang of cowards to look out for on Dublins streets on a dark night.
Anthony, Dublin/Ireland

I think everybody gets the message with the video-footage That was shown on the 6 one news last night. A number of guards beaten the crap out of a few protesters. Unjustifed and shameful behaviour!!!! And trying to hide their ID numbers,they knew exactly what they were doing!!!!
gerry, fiji

On consideration of what I saw on television, then the gardai certainly acted in a brutal fashion, some of them showed no restraint what so ever and appeared to me to revel in the violence.

One of the guards the big guy in the blue shirt should get jail for his actions. In fact if he lived in North Kerry, the Concerned Parents would make him a paid up member of their vigilante group. I do support the gardai, but I also think it is high time that we have an independent body with investigative powers and sufficent resources to weed out corruption and make gardai accountable for their activities.
Frank, Kerry

Absolutly. These rallys in recent years have been organised or thwarted by experienced hooligans. The "innocents" who choose to turn a blind eye to that fact and who rally round more or less for the fun of it should be aware of the possible consequences, namely, a baton on the bonce.

I have no more sympathy for them than I have for the rioters in north Belfast who end up in worse conditions after having pelted the police by all sorts of missiles from all sides.

No beating about the bush, please,clobber them, first and moremost those wearing Balaclavas.
Paul Easman, Toomebridge, Co. Antrim

by b Wed May 08, 2002 19:13

RMJ, I won't even try to pretend that Ireland does not suffer from violence and aggression. But "one of the most violent and criminal societies in the Western world" ?? Surely a tad harsh.

Arming the population and the police is not the answer. For the year 2000, the number of firearms-related deaths in the USA was 28,000, down from 41,000 ten years previously. Source : International Herald Tribune, December 2001. It's a lot of people for any nation to lose each year.

I appreciate your concern for our country, but a general policy of meeting fire with fire is more likely to brutalise society than to calm it.
Brendan, Singapore

Yes, definitely! I'm sick and tired of this "easy does it" approach to lawbreakers. It's the root cause of the violence that goes on in our towns and cities almost every night. A violent person dispenses with his/her rights when they commit crime. If the law is broken, lock them up!

Another enquiry? No way. Our Gardai aren't paid enough to handle all this shit. They are just trying to do a job as well as they can. 2000 extra Gardai? . Who would want the job???
Brian, Ireland

Anti-globalisation gobs...es has caused destruction and mayhem throughout the world. The Gardai were right to beat the crap out of these morons. It makes me angry when I hear the Irish Council for Civil Liberties constantly whinging about scum like Paul Ward, etc.

What about the civil liberties of Veronica Geurin, and all the other victims of violence on our streets. Hopefully the Gardai will continue to use their new found enthusiasm when dealing with steet crime every Fri and Sat night.
James, Cork

I voted yes, because the softly softly approach elsewhere only encouraged those intent on causing damage and trouble to go just that little bit further each time, knowing that they'll get away with some damage. Now they'll know that it won't be tolerated in Ireland.

But from that to agreeing with RMJ of Santa Clara? No way! The logical conclusion of his/her posting is that most violence in the US is confined to the inner city poor and gangs, so that's OK and acceptable since it's confined to them and doesn't affect most other "nice" people. That sick and warped mindset we can do without in Ireland - and thankfully most of us don't have it.

As for protecting ourselves with guns, US murder rates are over 20 times Ireland's, the majority of them with guns, so I suspect we are doing a better job of protecting ALL our citizens - the good and the bad - without them than the US is with them, where the 'nice' people are protected but the poor in particular bear the brunt of the gun violence. But they don't count for much apparently in RMJ's view. What a creep.

And his statistics are wrong. International crime comparisons indicate that muggings, car theft, robbery and breaking and entering levels in the US have all fallen in recent years, but ONLY to European levels and they even needed guns to achieve that, which says something about a society, I suppose. Murders, by contrast are way higher.
expat, italy

I have to commend the Gardai for doing their job for the first time in years.

There might have been moments of over-zealousness, but they still performed admirably against the rabble.

I fully agree with peaceful protests, but this one went too far by normal standards, and the Gardai (while a little inexperienced in this department) sent a clear message that this sort of carry-on is not acceptable.

Now that the Gardai have shown us that they can act like policement, how about they keep at it. Their performance to date in other fields of policing are not so spectacular,.... how about making the streets safer?? How about responding to calls?? How about looking interested in police work??

They have no excuse now, they have shown that they can do it when they really want to.
Lord Flash, Empire of Eire (Empire of the Rising Damp)

Yes. Step back for a second, and put yourself in their shoes.
Paul, Australia

Aren't they supposed to be protecting us????With boots and batons???I don't think so...INVESTIGATION REQUIRED...the pictures I've seen are very sobering.AND VERY SAD.Isn't the RIGHT TO PROTEST still a right???Or have things changed that much.???Just wondering.......
Frank, Malaysia

Yes. I think it's about time the Gardai started to get tough. I only hope that this is the beginning of a tougher force, one that will stand up to the street crime that we face, muggings, stabbings, etc.. I think we all know that the protestors were not entirely innocent yesterday.
Mick, Eire

All police forces - let's be frank about this - have an element of "stick one to the scrotes". A scrote is anyone they are personally prejudiced against and varies according to each officer - believe me, I've seen it and been subject to it. A scrote can be an unemployed youth, a student, a mouthy mother, a in-and-out-of-jail criminal - it doesn't matter. It's partisan law enforcement of the worst sort, and the fact they covered their district tags up only underlines the suggestion that they were trying to teach "the scrotes" a lesson.

The Gardai are an institution and, just like the Defence Forces, they are trapped in a web of institutionalised behaviour. One of the more unsavoury institutionalised behaviours is lack of restraint and a determination to get one's own back, particularly in demonstrations and against disliked figures such as Martin Ferris in North Kerry.

No doubt there was provocation on the part of the protestors. There always is at any demonstration. But it is the duty of the Gardai and every other police service to exercise restraint and not make a bad situation worse - unless of course they want the overtime.

The term "scrote" is something used by the police themselves, in both jurisdictions on this island. If the Gardai want unstinting public support, they must uphold the law unstintingly and support the public's right to protest unequivocally.

Chris, Australia (ex-Derry)

by c Wed May 08, 2002 19:15

It is disgusting, some Gardai put on that uniform and become criminals themselves. They are there to protect and serve not to abuse or become Judge and Jury. The Gardai are a law unto themselves and it is about time there was someone who could stop their unecessary abuse and police the police to protect the people.
Sarah, Ireland

Where were these brave men when my fiancee was beaten within an inch of his life in Temple Bar recently??? Think it's time that a little public relations course was implemented. They work for the people not the INTERESTS...this is your alarm call, Ireland!!!!
Christine, Singapore

Paul, Australia writes "Yes. Step back for a second, and put yourself in their shoes." - I hope Paul isn't using the Australian police as a reference point for how police forces should act. If he is he should take a look at the Royal Commission into Police Corruption here in Western Australia, or pop down to the town where I live where the police are little more than uniformed sociopaths who happen to have the judiciary on their side. I don't know about the rest of Australia, but in Western Australia, the police has a deserved bad reputation as upholders of nothing but their own prejudices and vendettas against bikies, Aboriginals and ethnic minorities. I don't want to see this style of policing disfigure Ireland, thank you.

If inexperience was anything to do with the Guards' actions then serious questions have to be asked. How can we entrust our wellbeing to a police service that is only partially trained? If hotheadedness was anything to do with it, then guilty officers have to be weeded out and either retrained for anger management or sacked. We can't have a police service in which even a minority of officers share the sort of "beat them senseless" attitude of RMJ. If the inexperience was down to officers being seconded from outside the area, particularly from rural areas, then the State has to look at the deployment of Garda and perhaps beefing up the Dublin sections. Whatever the case, at the minimum a Garda Ombudsman is required.
Chris, Australia (ex-Derry)

Ok so I first assume that RMJ is either joking, high, or a crackpot militant. In case you are none of these, I shall continue.

You finish your rant with three absurd rhetorical questions. I guess this is as good a place for me to start.

1. Ordinary people were not to fear from anything on Monday except being beaten by gung ho police officers, acting unprofessionally, out of control and without provocation. Ordinary people were in that peaceful bank holiday carnival style rally. It was a lot of fun. Ordinary people then got charged on their own supposed guardians, keepers of the peace ("gardai siochana" ). A child under ten was brought to hospital as a result of injuries sustained from this mindless thugery.

2. Second point, I agree with. The lives of ordinary people, doing harm to no-one should not be disrupted by thugs with sticks and clout to spin them with. You said it, sister.

3. The police should not be allowed use force if force is unnecessary and restraint would serve them better. Using force at will like that surely puts us in the position of a police state, right?

So the next time the taxi drivers or the farmers and their sheep have a demonstration to highlight their causes, they should get the same thing? A democratic society which censors protest would seem not to be fully embracing democracy, in my humblest opinion.

You cite violent crime against "poor people trapped in areas within large cities" as someone sort of arguing point. You allude to street gangs and later praise liberal gun laws. I am imagining you have some notion of building large walls around these cities and letting them all shout it out, thugs and impoverished alike. Close?

Apart from the inaccuracies of all your points I resent your disparaging remarks about Ireland. We are doing quite alright with room for improvement. But we won't be ordering any Seattle style outfits and tear gas of your mighty Bush yet.

This free state was born on the back of protest, peaceful and violent, and the former kind should now always be nurtured and encoaraged if we are to avoid it becoming pent up and turning into the latter. And of course in order to keep the bureaucrats up there in Dublin Castle (nod to Mr. Smith) on their toes.

The main picture on this site is sourced from indymedia.ie, where there are first hand accounts and more photos of what really happened.
declan, The _FREE_ State

RMJ, Santa Clara, CA USA. You can keep your guns over there in your moronic backward society. You people can't even ensure the safe use of Aeroplanes, never mind projectile weapons. The people of Ireland have no desires to shoot at each other...but in your case, and in your country I understand, and I feel it justified. So just keep it there. This is not a debate about guns.
Darren, Cultured Eire

I sometimes wonder if some of these events that happen, are orchestrated by the "victims" as a means of obtaining publicity for their cause. You hold a protest, become offensive and generally become an intimidating force for those who happen to be in the area at the same time. You then wheel out your "own" car and proceed to beat the hell out of it and burn it, in full view of the police who have no idea if it is actually yours or not. And you expect them to stand by while anarchy rules in our capital.
If there was any innocent people hurt yesterday, then that obviously is an injustice, but the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of those who instigated the violence and not those who tried to end it. An arsonist cannot complain when he is burnt by the fire.
Conor, Ireland.

I don't think the Garda action was Justified. When there are problems in Neilstown and Tallaght with massaes of people gathering to cause trouble they are too chicken to do much about it. But when a group of inteligent people gather together with a reason other than being just trouble risers, they come in and attack because they know they won't hit back.
The Gimp, Dublin

The fact that 44% of people have responded yes to this question is very depressing. It seems that no matter what the Gardai do there will always be a group of idiots who, inherently suspicious of anyone who protests anything, say "the Gardai have a tough job. They need to be supported". Supporting the use of violence by the police against peaceful protesters alongside the seemingly organised concealment of identity helps nothing and noone least of all law and order in Ireland. Perhaps the explanation for the impunity with which the Gardai acted can be found in the indiscriminate support offered by a paranoid and embittered minority.
John, Dublin

OK one half call these people thugs the other lawful prtestors, seems to me it's from here that people base their opinions. What makes them thugs or low lifes anyway, is this the usual way Irish people deal with differences coming out again? I think hiding badge numbers tells its own story, I mean why all of a sudden did the Garda completely lose it? I've alot of respect for them and when comparing them to the Finnish, French, German or Dutch police forces I think on the whole they're much better.

But that said, why are the farmers and their Massey Fergusons allowed to dump manure, potatos our allowed run sheep anywhere they please, all in the spirit of protest? Let us not forget the not so friendly NTDU members who decide to block dual carriage ways? Or IMPACT & SIPTU members who periodically block entrance to Dublin Airport when things at Aer Fungus get hairy. If the Garda where consistent, they would have done nothing as per usual, but for some strange reason they panicked. As personally the above self interest groups are more deserving of a baton charge anyday.
James Cooper, The Netherlands

Reading the various media accounts it seems that both the Gardai and the protesters have questions to answer. The use of "Batons" to disperse protestors leaves the Gardai with many questions to respond to. The right to protest peacefully is something that is inherent in Western Democracies. The Gardai must act within the law and should not use excessive force to disperse what should have been a peaceful protest.

On the other hand the organisers of "Reclaim the Streets", must also answer questions regarding their provocative demonstration. I will defend anyone's right to peaceful protest, but it is clear that there exists a core within the anti-capitalist movement intent on causing maximum damage and inciting a riot in order to draw attention to their cause. Violence is seen as a necessary part of every protest which is doing little to enhance the reputation of the "Anti Capitalist" movement.

As someone who sympathises with some of the causes of "Reclaim the Streets" I despise the tactics used by the protesters, whom I wish would get involved in politics rather than tarnish legitimate causes by fuelling resentment against them. Issues like Urban and Rural pollution, Global Corporate expansion and Anti-Racism need people to get involved in politics and engage in debate rather than cheep publicity stunts that damage property and provoke the Gardai.

We see the emergence of the Far-Right within Europe, while the left sit idly by failing to engage people in politics allowing a greater intolerance to emerge by engaging in street politics rather than listening to what is happening on our streets. If the "anti-globalisation" movement is to emerge as something more than street brawlers then they must not get involved in cheap stunts that has characterised the movement. Make no mistake, the organisers of these rallies spend hours planning the minutest detail in order to maximise the disruption these protests cause. Of course the Gardai have questions to answer, but so to do the people involved in "Reclaim the Streets", who are doing grave damage to issues like pollution by such actions.

The emergence of extremist politics from various sides of the political spectrum raises serious challenges for this generation, and the damage caused by splinter groups is allowing real political debate to get replaced by cheep political stunts that are alienating valid political. Most are us are concerned about the environment and the need to do something about urban sprawl, and there is a need for more people to come forward with alternatives rather than disrupting people’s lives with pointless symbols and needless provocation.
Fintan, Netherlands

Conor, for being "accosted" whilst passing by a street carnival, you recommend public beatings by our public servants. Hardly. Make an official complaint, have that individual arrested. Don't be such a coward and a bully and so egocentric that you think the whole police force should pay back ten times what small injury you suffered. You are not the el duche yet you know. If you do get there, then you can start the purges on your enemies. What kind of ridiculous rational led you to say such a thing? Have you no Christianity in your bones, that you would welcome beatings by batons on heads, young and old?
Fr. Ted., Craggy Island

by d Wed May 08, 2002 19:18

Hi eveerybody..... NO. Now I live abroad and really shouldn't comment because I wasn't there... BUT if anybody wants more information,(especially hot-headed locos like RMJ), then get into...www.indymedia.ie... where you can read several articles on the subject, see photos of some of it, etc. If that's not enough, read Graine Cunningham's article.. www.unison.ie...where she intreviewed a British tourist who was accidently on the scene....That's all the information I have!!.... Now to another thing..Welcome back Micael and congratulation for the two new additions to the family!!! ...Cheers, back later
Maureen, Barcelona

I have nothing but respect for the majority of the Gardai who do a thankless job made all the more difficult due to both media and political pressures.

The question that should be asked is why the gardai do not have the proper equipment that would enable them to break up a violent disruptive protest without having to resort to a baton charge.

While I am a strong defender of the right to protest and have done so on many occasions, that right does not extend to violent intimidation.

I would like to add my amazement at Minister for Justice being able to descibe what happened while reiterating that he could not comment due to not having seen the footage. It definitely sounded as if he was hoping to avoid the subject totally until after the election when it will turn out to be somebody elses problem.
Russell, Ireland

“RMJ's belief in a society of "ordinary people" besieged by some type of unemployed animal element is flawed apartheid, and an approach that supports the stereotyping of almost anyone who does not fit into the mould of white, middleclass suburbanite”.

Chris, Australia (ex-Derry) on P1: I did not refer to unemployed people. I called no one an animal. I do not understand the term “flawed apartheid”. I did not refer to white people and in fact did not mention race at all ( was there some reason you think I should have?). I said nothing about middle class suburbanites. Usually people responding to my posts content themselves with calling me a nazi or a Fascist (even when I am berating Europeans for forgetting the persecution of the Jews!).

Some people demand that the moderator block all my posts. Others just call me rude names. I have to admit that your effort is much more entertaining.
RMJ, Santa Clara, CA USA

Mark, Suisse. Why do you automatically paint all Gardai with the same brush? People are not having a go at all Gardai, but the violent and repressive actions of certain heavy handed ones on a peaceful protest. To bring up the deaths of two gardai killed on duty and use it as a shield against all criticism is a very ignorant and quite frankly is bad form. I hope you are pulled in by a 'Bad cop' one of these days and are subjected to a power mad abuse session. Maybe then you'll change your tune.
Darren, Cultured Eire

Did everyone suddenly get mass Amnesia in regards to whom we're talking about in these protests? The same anti-capitalism "pacifists" who routinely riot, loot, upend cars, commit arson, etc. and routinely engage in unprovoked violent attacks against police almost as a matter of course; Doing so throughout Europe and the western world for years now whenever they're given a liberal license in a protest?

We’re not talking about saints here in regards to this segment of society, they are always eager to riot if they get the slightest chance. If heavy handed tactics by police "offend" folks, perhaps they should spend 5 minutes in a police officers shoes in the prospect of facing down such a likely-to-riot mob, I wager folks opinions would become considerably more accommodating on the issue. And indeed while there is the chance police “over reacted” one should ask the question “why” before going off and condemning them as a matter of course.
Stephen, USA

The actions of the some members of the Gardai, as portrayed on television, were completely unprofessional. Young (and indeed, older) members of the Force seem to have completely lost conrol of themselves in the heat of the moment. Better training, and increased accountability, are called for.

One shudders to think what might have happened if those gardai seen on television were armed. This indicates all the more forcefully the need for public accountability.

Finally, there should be no place in any civilised police force for a person who removes his identifying number in an effort to avoid accountability for his actions, such people should be dismissed.
Philip, Ireland

If people were not at the rally I don't think they should comment. We have to rely on second-hand information from people who most probably have their own agenda. I notice that most contributors here are rehashing the same tripe from the left-wing thrash.
BM, Eire

I see most of the 'Yes' people don't even live in Dublin and chances are they were not in Dublin on that quiet Bank Holiday Monday and even less of a chance of them being at the protest. To read the uneducated crap is sad but, not surprising. After all, the Garda have to recruit from somewhere.
K, Dublin, Ireland.

Restoring a bit of order, like any police force should, is good. Removing name tags and then battering the bejaysus out of the protesters is bad, very bad. Next question. The news polls will be free. Does this apply to the sports polls?
Clooneman 2000, Ireland

So it seems that the one thing the Garda are capable of doing properly is descending to the level of the street thugs they are supposed to be protecting society against. (I do not, by the way, equate environmental protestors necessarily with street thugs). Interesting how the Gardai can clear the streets of a few whistle blowing protesters on a public holiday and not taxi drivers, lorry drivers or other groups who aggressively and violently snarl up the whole city. I have reported about a dozen crimes in my life, including one the other day where a man vandalised my car in front of a witness who could identify him and was willing to give a statement (I wasn't there... the civic minded person left a note on my car). In all cases the Gardai did nothing. Once I was very seriously attacked in my flat. The Gardai caught the fellow who broke in and did it. They did nothing. However, we hear of Gardaí being charged with blackmail and soliciting bribes in Tallaght and Bray, we witness the horror of the victimisation in Donegal and we see the blatant unaccountable thuggery of the gardaí at the weekend. Makes me wonder who will protect society from it's protectors?
CP, Wicklow, Ireland

Damn right they were justified, it's only a pity the Gardai don't carry plastic bullets etc. These people are always up to no good trying to wreck business and workplaces. They should get up out of it and get jobs instead of going around tree hugging!
JimBob, Ire

We can't have it both ways. Decent people don't end up getting battered by the gardai, maybe one in a blue moon. This protest must have surpassed all expectations of the organisers, all this publicity. Does anyone know what it was about????
Joseph Cunningham,

Absolutely, there is a stark difference between peaceful protest and violent rioting. The trouble with these tree huggers is that though they claim to be the most peaceful of souls, they are just as violent as the next man. I mean there was a smoking car used in their "peaceful protest"!! Work that one out.
niallieb, Eire

RMJ, santa clara, is clearly a sad, attention seeking individual with little better to do than to try to provoke a reaction by making outlandish statements. PLEASE STOP ENCOURAGING HIM / HER WITH ANYTHING RESEMBLING SERIOUS RESPONSES.
vince, Scotland

by a Wed May 08, 2002 19:20

These people attempt to interfere with people going about their lawful business. They travel abroad and wreck cities in other countries. Then when the Gardai stand up to them they run whinging to their friends in the media. Some of the naieve journalists were taken in "hook line and sinker". RTE interactive (whatever that is) being a particularly vocal example.
Did you see their put on "innocent faces" at the press conferences? No recognition of their own thugish illegal behaviour. I'm sick and tired of being lectured by these idiots. Just because they have friends in the media does not mean they have anything of value to say.

Most of us are just trying to hold down our jobs and get on with our lives. These "partying" political activists need to grow up and contribute to society. As far as I am concerned the Gardai were too restrained. The Gardai have enough to do without dealing with these overgrown kids and their pals in the media.
padraig malone, limerick

Yes, I support the Gardaí 100% on this. Scumbags like those that tried to take over our streets on Monday caused mayhem in places like Seattle. A few taps around the head might knock some sense into them. No one has the right to sit down in the middle of the street blocking traffic. These people were looking for trouble.

You can no longer go into Dublin on a Saturday without some rabble or other having a "protest" and blocking the streets. It's becoming also ritualistic and lessening the effect of real protests on genuine issues.
Keith Mills, Dublin Ireland

Three questions: 1) Why do the guards, and police around the world only react in this fashion to anti-globilisation protests, and not other protests. 2) What is the difference between a guard removing his identification badge and someone donning a balaclava? 3) Is there any difference between the guards being unleashed and the paras being unleashed in the Bogside, other than the choice of weapon?
col, ireland

The police were too soft - the Italian police have the right idea. If you start trouble then what do they expect. It was very pleasant to see the Pookas and the Fintans of the world getting their heads cracked :)
Eddie, ireland

Yes. I saw these protests and they were anything but "peaceful" as they claimed them to be. These people were not out there for any other cause than to make trouble. Anyone trying to walk past could not get by without being knocked over or pushed into a wall. The police only did what was necessary to control troublemakers.
Meghan, Ireland

The people of this country are all crying out for zero tolerance and when for once we get it there's uproar and a huge out cry for inquiries etc. Monday night is exactly what zero tolerance is. Throw anything at a Garda and get the crap beat out of you. Pull a car (even if its yours)onto the middle of the road and smash it to pieces. Get the full weight of the law on your back. This is what zero tolerance is. Put the fear of god into people so they wont throw bottles or smash up cars anymore. So the question really should have been do the people of Ireland really want zero tolerance or do they just want to have it when it suits them.
Michael Limerick, Ireland

Youth Defence, what a joke, who the hell are you defending the youth from, the only people they need defending from are narrow minded people like yourself cluchie. Hopefully if anything goes awry at the planned protest outside Pearse Street garda station tomorrow they might eventually knock a bit of sense into you this time. I have the right to travel freely to and from where ever I like, were you thinking of those rights the other day, I don't think so, only your own selfish militant interests. Did you all move on when asked to do so, I don't think so, was this protest properly organised, not on your life. All this anti- capitalism and globalisation is a crock, how many of you 'defenders' don't go around wearing brand labels etc, or do you all knit your own clothes and grow your own potatoes ?
Paul, Dublin

“But from that to agreeing with RMJ of Santa Clara? No way! The logical conclusion of his/her posting is that most violence in the US is confined to the inner city poor and gangs, so that's OK and acceptable since it's confined to them and doesn't affect most other "nice" people. That sick and warped mindset we can do without in Ireland - and thankfully most of us don't have it.” expat, italy on P2: You have not drawn a conclusion which follows logically from what I said. The failure of the US to control crime in inner cities is a consequence of Government indifference to the plight of people who are not regarded as a constituency by either major party. It is disgraceful and inexcusable. You drew your conclusion because your sole interest was in attacking me. That's fine but clothing it in a concern for poor Americans is pathetic. I’m beginning to think I prefer it when people just call me names rather than muddle their brains with half assed attempts at thinking. Of course you did call me a creep - so that's OK then.
RMJ, Santa Clara, CA USA

We are so pampered in this country a few Middle CLass tree huggers get their heads cracked and people want an inquiry, It's nothing compared to what happens in most other countries. I don't really like the Cops but they need to be heavy handed otherwise people will walk all over them, ya got to instill a bit of fear into trouble makers. I am a young person but I feel Political correctness in the world has lead to young people running amok thinking they cannot be touched.
John, Ireland

I going to vote Yes for now simply because I don't have the facts to make a decision. Since the choice is between believing the guards or a bunch of anarchist, lazy, no-good-for-nothing treehuggers the decision is easy to make.

If you lot who voted No thought that Monday was bad wait until 2004 when we will host an EU summit. The Swedes, Italians and Spanish had 10,000 police to handle the riots. That's practically our entire force. If the public don't stand behind the guards Dublin will really look like a warzone.
Justin Hayes, Ireland

The dole should be taken away from these lilly-livered spoilt kids and forced to be responsible for themselves rather than others hard earned tax euros. They are the scum of society.
Norris, Eire

Yes, absolutely. I am sick of people taking over public thoroughfares and then expecting to be treated with kid gloves. I don't care what their flag of convenience is - reclaim the streets, anti-fascist, national front, loyalist, republican, rioting taxi drivers or Millwall supporters - I back the police. In fact, I think they are usually too late and too soft in their approach. These protesters taunt the police, break laws, vandalise property, cause inconvenience to the rest of the public and then cry foul when they get manhandled or hit with a truncheon. And an idiot press takes their side and cuts the film or takes the picture to show the police response, but not what they were responding to.
C. Ryan, Republic of Ireland

Absolutely Not! I am sick and tired of Gardai trying to show their authority to people who are not real criminals. Ok, so we don't want protestors blocking our streets etc. but was the level of force used really necessary? - No it wasn't. Just a crowd of Gardai taking a power trip, knowing that their victims weren't in a position to fight back.
MK,

I read the commnets of LB, Dublin on page one and I am amazed and saddened by the short memory of some people. In the course of his contribution he says"..the same Gardaí who are nowhere to be seen when the true enemies of the city speed around in stolen cars......without interference." Were you on some other planet when two Gardai were killed defending us, Joe & Josephine Public, in Stillorgan only a few short weeks ago?

I was not personally in Dublin city centre at the time of this disturbance but I spoke to two friends of mine who were. They told me that they, and others were genuinely frightened and in some instances threatened by these marchers, many of whom appeared to be on the same planet as LB.
Peig Sayers, Hidden Ireland

I voted no because of the fact that not one Garda was injured, this must leave some serious questions. The Guards seemed to be letting fly freely without specifically targeting any particular individuals. I do believe however that the ordinary people of Dublin should be able to tend to their business without the hassle of a couple of hundred wasters disrupting them, I just don't think excessive use of the baton is the way to counteract the protest.

RMJ, Santa Clara our "backwards attitude to gun ownership." Well if our backward attitude stops our children from killing each other in our schools then let's stay the way we are. Would you have prefered a shoot out rather than what happened the other day? I don't find anything backward about every loonatic that wants to have a gun being restricted from having one. Will you get over the John Wayne cowboy buzz and look at the pain and suffering your gun laws cause.
Rex, Ireland

Fintan (NL), I won't agree with some of your argument. You write: "We see the emergence of the Far-Right within Europe, while the left sit idly by failing to engage people in politics allowing a greater intolerance to emerge by engaging in street politics rather than listening to what is happening on our streets."

This is nonsensical. You accuse the left of sitting idly by in one clause of your sentence and then follow through with a condemnation of street politics. Are they taking direct action or not? Are you telling me that all protests should be channelled through the avenues of the Dail and its misfortunate penchant for corruption and self-service? There's not much direct action going on there.

I agree that there probably was some to-ing and fro-ing between the Gardai and the protestors, but the protestors had a legitimate cause which the Gardai either found threatening, offensive, juvenile or a mixture of all three and sought to dole out some "instant justice".

Blaming the left for having the cop-on to get out there and protest goes nowhere. Without protest and direct action, many of the civil rights the Gardai are supposed to uphold would never have materialised. How do you propose the left is to manifest its opposition to the far right and the rightist elements of the State?
Chris, Australia (ex-Derry)

by a Wed May 08, 2002 19:23

What thugs? What violent protest? There were a number of people arrested when the car was trashed and had a smoke bomb thrown into it (it was not set alight as some people seem to think). After that the carnival atmosphere continued. The party was moved on to Dame St. and some people sat down and blocked the traffic. People making traffic wait instead of traffic making people wait? Obviously that won't do so the Gardaí beat them off the streets. Big brave men when they are attacking unarmed peaceful protestors. God help them if any of the really troublesome element of the anti globalisation movement ever have reason to come to Dublin.
Daragh, Éire

Ummm Blueshirts...coincidence?
Sean,

YES, Raise your hands on who was actually there? Thought so very little. How do you all know what went on out apart from a few images from the media. Remember the media show what THEY want to show.

Why is it in this country the Gardai get blamed for everything. They must have one of the toughest jobs. Ireland as a country is one of the worst for street crime. Dont blame the gardai on this they dont own these thugs they didnt rare them. They do the best they can.

I think they do a good job. Next time your house is broken into you'll go crying to them and when they catch the criminal you will probably complain that they didn't do it quicker.
steve, dublin

Gimp, you really are a gimp, I've been living in Tallaght for the last 25 years and have yet to see 'massaes' (your spelling) of people gathering to cause trouble, oh, do you mean the gang of 10 or 15 youths hanging around street corners, granted, these are undesirable and most likely looking for trouble, but to call them a mass in hardly appropriate and come package with every housing estate. And Maureen, Barcelona, how independent do you think that website is, are these 'independent' reports coming from the 'independent' protestors. And so what if a photo shows a protestor getting a smack on the head from a guard, do you think this photo shows what happened before hand or what abuse the protestor shouted at the Guards. You've seen what happened throughout America and Europe, the sheer mindless vandalism from so-called 'intelligent' people as you call them Gimp, fair play to the guards from preventing this happening in Dublin and long may they continue to do so!
Paul,

It’s hard to be sure what went on amid a welter of conflicting eyewitness accounts. I was intrigued to hear that one witness for the gardaí, so to speak, was afraid to give his name to the media. Surely a reversal of the norms of barricade etiquette there! The TV footage I have seen isn’t pretty, but there is a strong suspicion among the general public that the apparent overreaction from the force was exactly what some of the protestors were hoping for, so that they could do their aggrieved anti-establishment thing in the limelight. Time to bring in an Ombudsman, for everybody’s sake.
Incidentally, the declared aim of the rally, to reclaim the streets for pedestrians, is something I have a lot of sympathy for, but these groups seem to be a bit selective about the chosen beneficiaries of their protests, i.e. young people alone and to hell with the rest of the population.
Millicent, Drumcondra

Hey police, Black Bloc coming to get ya!!
Anarchista, Prague, Genoa, Barcelona, Dublin?

Misbehavour can not be tolerated. The violence on the streets is an affront to us all. The police have to be strong to protect the weak from these thugs.
Conor, Spain

I have been for several years in Donegal and I must say that the Garda is quite more 'civilized' in Ireland then their collegues in many other countries, have a look what's happen in France or Spain or even the US.

We must see two sides.First, the Government fails to provide exact instruction on hwo to handle such cases, if..! Second, I have been a ex- Legionaires and if you are in front of peoples and you have to stop them you are also afraid and you afraid to loos your job if you fail and then there is no 'direct' order because no one in charge, even the Government will give 'direct orders' to not miss the next election.

Now ther is another point, which is that we are all citizen and it is the right of every citizen (or it should be) (social contract between citizen and Government) to opose whatever he/she believes is wrong in our society or system.Now, we have seen a development in the past years, that the Government and their organizations , once elected feel above the citizen.This is wrong. Citizen keeps the Government and organization alive by paying imposed taxes.

So, the police as a arm of the goverment in fact supports or keep his family and house and children and garden alive, because of the citizen which he should help or advice. I oppose strongly any violance from both sides, but if citizens get out of the line because of what reason hwo so ever, the police should act as a teacher of democracy and not as a SS or against this peoples. It is not easy certainly to be in such a situation, but this is why someone becomes a 'Garda' or helper to the Government.

To take care, to GARD! Not to act in contrary. Violence always will be happen and happen since humankind exist.But sometimes the Government and his organisation forgot that at the end it has always been the 'Leaders' who lost.First the Cradinal time, then the Kings, (French Revolution) Hitlers, Mussolini's,Pinochets and so on. Peoples ,Citizen once they get a new leader have the power no matter what to remove what ever they think is not good.

We learn this, don't be surprised in l'Ecole Militaire du Rang Superieur' even as Legionaires.We must first take all messures to stop escalation, but NO VIOLANCE , no show guns or whatever what make citizen already hot, more exited.

(See History Ghandi-British-India) Greetings from Singapore
Martin, Singapore

I held off from saying this earlier, but I'll say it now.

Of all the pictures I have seen of the demonstration, the one on the front page on this very website reminded me of other things: the way the RUC laid into civil rights marchers in the North in the 1960s, and the way the apartheid police laid into protesting blacks in South Africa.

In no way am I attempting to associate an inherently good police service like the Gardai with the stormtroopers of the 1960s RUC or the South African police, but that is what it reminded me of, and I hope to God that wasn't what was going on on the actual ground.
Chris, Australia (ex-Derry)

I think they showed remarkable restraint. Baton-charging the SWP should be National Sport. We could herd a bunch of them into the centre of Croke Park each year before the hurling final and let the police loose with the hurleys. If the SWP are such a peaceful bunch of hippies, why then do they describe themselves as "revolutionaries" with the stated aim of overthrowing the state whether with democratic means or not.
Colin Cooper, United Kingdom

Some of the comments here are quite scary. All this 'well done', 'need to get tougher' rubbish I find quite offensive. At what point do people with this viewpoint draw the line, tear gas, plastic bullets?!?

The guards are supposed to be there to protect, and rarely are in the right place at the right time. This is not to say they don't know where the right place at the right time is, we all do, late at night outside pubs and clubs, but that would mean they'd actually have to do the job they're supposed to, and I'm sure that's not half as much fun as pasting a bunch of hippies!

I know a few protestors got out of hand, but that in NO WAY justifies a blanket wave of baton attacks on anyone and everyone either attending the protest or simply in the way. They are a disgrace of a force.
Aaron, Derry

LB,Dublin - how the hell can you say the following: "the same Gardaí who are nowhere to be seen on our streets when the true enemies of the city speed around in stolen cars" Some people have very short memories.

Do you not remember a few weeks ago when two members of "the same Gardai" lost their lives in their effort to save the lives of people like you? The least that these men deserve is that people like ourselves appreciate their actions and show a bit of respect to the rest of the men and women who are out trying to make our lives better and safer - putting their own lives at risk on a regular basis.

One simple word seems to be missing from the majority people these days - RESPECT.
Paul., Ireland

ABSOLUTELY justified. As a matter of fact if I were to offer any critism at all it would be that the Gardai were too restrained.

Unfortunately, the spoilt little brats that had their tantrum on Dame Street have been coddled all their lives by parents who would rather curry the kids favour by being buddies and buy their "love" by giving them loads of material things.

Responsibility, disipline and respect for the laws of the land are principles to be shunned. These young idealist marxists were taught a valuable lesson by the Gardai: Everything in life comes with a price and you'd better be prepared to pay that price.

In the case of the recent street incident the price of public disorder was having to endure a bit of pain and humiliation. Hopefully, this generation will follow the example of those 60's extremists and eventually metamorphose into the capitalists of the 2020's.

In closing, my final statement to these naive youngsters I'll pass on a bit of advice from my da that has served me wll for the better part of 40 years: "Don't mess with a bull or you'll get the horns!"
eddie-the Aggravator, Ireland/ex USA

Same Old Same Old!!!

The brutality of the police force has been around for decades and the powers that be know it but are too shit scared to take action. They have no regard for human beings.

Look at the stories in the regional papers on Unison each week and see what trivial matters people are appearing in court for - summary offences.

If a person has a few drinks and staggers down the footpath he is arrested without breaking the law and if a few teenagers stand around the town or city chatting they are immediately told to move on - where is the freedom!

And the lies told by Gardai - well you only have look at the Donegal matter currently in the news (McBrearty) and the the latest planting of drugs in a Donegal night club by a civillian at the request of a Garda!!!!

CORRUPTION IS RAMPANT THERE (I do visit often and have see the antics).

In contrast the May Day protest in Sydney on 1 May 2002 - thousands marched in the city - there was a huge presence of police on foot and horseback. Only one incident when an idiot threw marbels at the feet of the mounted police and a policewoman and horse were injured but THEY USED THEIR HANDS AND SKILLS TO ARREST and not ONE baton was taken from its pouch - but of course people respect the Police here because the Police respect the people and they have the breeding and intelligence which lacks in the Gardai - have you ever tried to have a conversation with a Garda in Dublin - try it and you will see what I mean.

Disband them and import some decent respectable police who have been trained to deal with all aspects of policing.

Lets see what Commissioner has the guts to charge the Gardai involved - the pictures are there - the strongest evidence available.

Have they got the Balls to break the corruption and bullying?
Tara, Australia

There is one set of rules to be applied when dealing with the likes of John Carty, the McBreartys, globalization protestors. And another set of rules to be applied to the untouchables. The Gardai are behaving like cowards. They only take one those weaker than them.
Dustin the Turkey, Sallynoggin

by e Wed May 08, 2002 19:26

If the picture on the front page of the national papers showed arsonists destroying private property (even if it was their own as we are supposed to believe) what question would the moderator have posed today?

FRONT PAGE/CAPTION: "ARSONISTS DESTROY VEHICLE IN CAPITAL CITY WHILE POLICE STAND IDLY BY" What do people want? Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. Do we want an airy-fairy Garda Siochana or a forc that will quell violenec when it rears its ugly head. They probably prevented worse mayhem by nipping it the bud.

I witnessed the Travellers protest a couple of weeks ago in O'Connell Street. It was very loud but well organised and peaceful and carefully motitored by the Gardai. Did they get anything like the publicity that Monday's march got? No way!

So I thimk its safe to assume that peaceful protest will not achieve the same level of publicity as a violent confrontation with the keepers of the peace.
BM, Eire

Conor, Spain - "Misbehavour can not be tolerated. The violence on the streets is an affront to us all. The police have to be strong to protect the weak from these thugs."

I hope you're not implying that the Gardai start raping suspects in custody, something the UN Human Rights Commission has consistently highlighted as a police action in southern Spain. The Spanish police are not strong, they're brutal. As for violence on our streets being an affront to us all, it wasn't an affront to me when you consider the circumstances that brought it about. A police officer losing control and batoning young and old indiscriminately is, however. As for the police protecting the weak - are you serious? Anyone who's been at a demonstration will tell you that when such violence occurs, the police don't pick through the assembled civilian crowd and pull the "weak" to safety. Rather, they baton the lot - protestors, by-passers, children, grannies. A baton charge can't discriminate. It is a tide of violence moving one-way into a group of civilians. A baton charge is the sure sign the police have given up picking out the "weak" and the "innocent" and that they're just looking to inflict a bit of "education" on the faceless mass directly in their warpath.
Chris, Australia (ex-Derry)

What were they trying to reclaim the streets for? Who were they trying to reclaim them from? These guys should realise that if they taunt the police, and espouse their tiny minority viewpoint, that is their entitlement. If however they seek to disrupt the movement of ordinary citizens, and burn cars in a city centre environment, then they must face the consequences. This is a democracy, not an anarchic hippy commune. The Gardai were probably too harsh, but they should have been in Riot Gear and handled it properly.
Patrick, Cork

YES, To those who blame all the Gardai for the few bad ones remember a few bad apples dont make a bad orchard. Just because 5 or 6 gardai hid their numbers and used brute force doesnt mean there all like that i know many a Garda who isnt like that. Dont blame all off lifes problems on the gardai.
Gerry, Ireland

YES. Well done to the Gardai. Lets teach those thugs a lesson.
Rob, Ireland

No because of what I seen on the TV news last night. Why did some of them remove their numbers ???

The Garda should go back to Templemore and learn how to calm a situation down rather than aggrivate it.
annette, dublin, Ireland.

Dear Mark, Suisse.....High marks for your stand against these sob-sister, do-gooders who think life is an extension of a Disney fairy tale. These brats, want every thing their way and cry when they meet reality face to face. To put it bluntly, they wouldn't make a pimple on a garda's butt!
eddie-the Aggravator, Ireland/ex USA

Im delighted this happened, at last a chance for the guards to show their true colours on camera. The Garda are a law unto themselves and for too long have been ruling the roost however they see fit.

Bring it on lads, more peaceful protests, more cameras, more garda violence, maybe eventually the public will begin to see these thugs for what they really are.

There was a question put to this forum a few days ago - 'Following recent gains accross europe, do you think a far right political movement could win popular support in Ireland' well lads, the overwhelming vote was a NO, what happened to your liberal ideals since then?

Monday showed up all you couch lefties for what you are as well - closet righties! - for gods sake, chose an ideal and stick with it!
Dub Lassie, Eire

I was at the street party on Burgh Quay. Sorry to ruin the stereotype but I'm not a tree hugging dole scrounger. I work a 9-5 office job like most people here.

What I saw on Burgh quay was a group of about 4-6 people spraypainting slogans and looking for trouble (the same people that trashed their own car) while several hundred people danced and partied on a street.

I left before the party was moved on from Burgh Quay so I can only judge the garda reaction from what I saw on the news, same as most people here, and removing numbers then battering people doesn't seem like the work of a responsible force.

The people at this party had nothing to do with trouble in Seattle or anywhere else. All they did was take back a bit of the city from the ever present polluting motors. I can't figure out how the party atmosphere I experienced resulted in baton wielding gardaí assaulting people.

I find it strange that people who only saw the news footage seem to be able to explain it and even justify it.
Daragh, Éire

Next thing you know they´ll be coming down from the Falls and the Shankill in droves to lend a hand in this merry making.
Then someone fires the first shot.......a Bloody Sunday in on our own doorsteps.Nip the whole damn thing in the bud. Get hold of the ringleaders, if the guards can infiltrate the IRA and such-like then this lot are no match, if it´s done in time.

A water canon can always be borrowed from friends in the north. Very effective.
Steel Tipp, formerly Bogside

Of course not!

They are brutal thugs. It takes a certain calibre of individual to want to join the gardai in the first place. What do people expect?

BTW, I noticed that your new popup installs 'doubleclick' adware into my machine. This invasion may be removed via: http://www.lavasoft.de/aaw.html
Silveronion.com, Ireland

Honestly - I don't know whether it was justified or not because I wasn't there. But is it any wonder that European voters are moving to the right when these anti-globalisation thugs get their kicks from disrupting the lives of ordinary people and burning cars on a public street.

If they did get a few whallops from the Gardai I'm certainly not all cut up about it. So what if IBM sets up an operation in Nigeria or McDonalds opens a hamburger joint somewhere in Nepal!

Globalisation allows the flow of some wealth from the West into these poor countries - yes, wish these corporations would leave a little more wealth behind but at least its a start.

Interesting that the poor people who are affected by this globalisation plague are not complaining about it! If these thugs are so upset about issues affecting third world countries they should volunteer to go out to them and serve as educators or relief workers.

Ah, but that would mean leaving their nice comfortable homes in the West wouldn't it ...
Dec, Dublin

'LB' should try doing a bit of research about how many Gardai get badly hurt or injured on 'our streets' when they are 'nowhere to be seen'.

The reason things are ONLY as bad as they are is because of the efforts of the vast majority of the Gardai. And on a separate note presumably the 'checks and balances that the PSNI are subject to' was an excercise in irony?
Dec, Dublin, Ireland

To: RMJ, Santa Clara Gun control ?

Whatever problems we do have and I think we are putting up with too-much already, they would only be exacerbated if we all could carry guns. Imagine some of our own eejits with guns ?

Get a grip, thankfully we don't suffer from the delusion that we need to save ourselves and our women folk from marauding bands of indians as we head to the fields ! Which is a defence your NRA often cling to, inorder to 'preserve your way of life'
bmurr, Irl

Okay, it's pretty clear that many people who have posted are assuming the gardai acted irresponsibly even though they weren't there, and only heard the comments of the people who were (who are hardly going to admit they lashed bricks at officers).

They've decided solely on the basis of speculation and conjecture, and long before any inquiry into the matter has started. So I have no time for those people who are obviously biased anyway.

What can be said though is this; if you see officers in riot gear massing, do you stand around or do you leave, not wanting to get involved in the trouble? I find it difficult to believe that the people the gardai hit were innocent. That's not to say they didn't make mistakes, but they're only human.

Secondly, by acting quickly and decisively the gardai stopped the potential riot from spreading. They quelled it quickly before it got started. We have this ridiculous situation whereby, if the police forces do nothing we complain they were 'ill-prepared' and didn't protect property. If they go in hard, we complain about them being heavy handed. The gardai, like every force, just can't win when we live with a country of such cynics.
James, Dublin, Ireland

No, the Garda actions were not justified. Many of those ranting here about how the protestors deserved it obviously did not see any of the march. I did, although I did not see much of the scuffles. The protestors were peaceful; believe it or not, marching, singing, blowing whistles, etc does not constitute a violent protest.

Before I go any further I should point out that I do happen to think half these protestors are morons. Many of them have legitimate concerns and issues (particularly the "clear the city centre of cars" issue, one I definitely agree with!) but many of them are also blatant hypocrites.

Case in point; some friends of mine got a mail from a friend of their's yesterday who was part of the protest, ranting on about, "pigs", "down with capitalism", fascist" footsoldiers", yada, yada, ad nauseum...now this particular idiot works for a major multinational IT company, one of the biggest; hypocrisy in action.

I also have no time for anybody who sets out to cause trouble; those who took part in the car incident for example. They do a great disservice to their fellow marchers who are only interested in genuine peaceful protest.

All that said, these people have every right to protest and certainly do not deserve to be charged by some irate baton-wielding thug who can't do his job properly. A full independent investigation is neccessary immediately.

Incidentally those claiming that the protest was a major hold-up to traffic should also note that the sold-out Frames gig was on just up the road in Dublin Castle with many people swarming round the area around Brogan's pub and across the road, even at that late stage, something which certainly added to the traffic problems.

But this point is conveniently ignored by those looking to rant here, isn't it? Like Chris, Australia, Ex-Derry says, it's amazing how many people feel that a failure to conform to white suburban button-down life should be met with a baton-charge.
David McDonagh, Dublin

The Gardai in Ireland have always been hated by the certain sections on the population. The problem now is that the middle classes are starting to doubt the integrity of our police force. During the 90's it was relatively easy to get a job in the Gardai and we are now seeing the results on the streets. There were a number of Gardai there that were no better than thugs.
DG, Ireland

Would you all gerrouda da! It's so easy to say it was unjustified when you weren't there, you didn't see the protestors. Corrupt? Most of you would be if you could get away with it.

Brutality? why? because of the sanitized and marketed 'impact' journalism you read in the papers and saw on your TV. Aren't we all so righteous!?

Peaceful protest is a wonderful thing but yesterday I'm sure the protestors were taunting and provoking the police who reacted as any of you would in that situation. It's not as if the protestors were walking arm in arm singing Songs Of Praise.
Paddy, Ireland

Justin Hayes, Ireland (p4) warns us of tough times ahead for a summit in 2004. He's absolutely right. I was in Gothenburg the week after last June's summit and riots, and the people there were still shell-shocked from what had happened.

As it happened, however, I was also in Brussels during the Summit in Laeken on 13-15th December, and was surprised to receive on many occasions an official leaflet in 4 languages telling me where and when the demonstrations would be held, including a map.

In case there are any Gardai on this forum who are willing to learn, I quote verbatim, in the hope that you will listen and consider that there are alternatives to the baton :

"Belgium is a democratic country where everyone has the right to express their opinion. The Lord Mayor of Brussels has authorised the demonstrations of the unions and the militants for "another" globalisation campaign. Being concerned about the security and the respect for living conditions of the residents of Brussels, the route of these demonstrations is agreed by the demonstrators and the authorities an open spirit of dialogue with all parties concerned. We ask all the demonstrators to keep to the agreed route as well as to observe the instructions of the police forces. The authorities do not want to try to stigmatise the demonstrators, nor do they want to transform Brussels into a fortified place.

The Brussels inhabitants, the tradesmen and the public services would like to regard you as their guests. It is thus in the interest of everyone that these demonstrations take place peacefully. Violence would only discredit the message you wish to promote."

And guess what? It worked. Of course there was a lot of behind the scenes activity, and of course there was a very strong police presence. But the people of Brussels made the event their own, with the unions and many other groups out in numbers to clearly convey what they had to say. These were not people that could be easily manipulated by agitators.

Yesterday was a failure for the Gardai, despite the small scale of the protest. The force needs to learn new ways of getting the co-operation of the masses in a protest and quickly neutralising the agitators.
Brendan, Singapore

I AGREE TOTALY WITH THE GUARDS. WHEN PEOPLE DELIBERETLY GO PUT TO CAUSE TROUBLE I THINK THAT THE SHOULD PAY FOR THE CONCEQUENCES. THEY DESERVED EVERYTHING THEY GOT.
JOHN BURKE, IRE

Why do many posters here complain day after day after day about the state of the country & politicians & then slag off people who actually get off their arses and protest against something worthy?

The Gardai do have a tough job; I don't deny that. But they were not justified in their actions that day.

Those who slag off anti-globalisation/May Day protesters; I wonder would you be as quick to slag off the Civil Rights Marches, The Hunger Strike Protests, The Free The Birmingham Six Campaigners of yesteryear?

The right to protest is sacred. Wake up! Where would we be if we all meekly stayed at home & went along with everything the powers that be said?
Jer, Babylondon, UK

I am absolutely astonished at the postings here saying the Gardai's response to protesters was justified!

The tv footage clearly shows the excessive and unreasonable use of force. That one person says they have the right not to be "pissed off by loud aggresive skangers wreckin my bleedin city" is shocking to me.

Well these people were NOT aggressive, nor are they "skangers", nor were they "wreckin" the city. I try to convince myself that Irish people are not a bigoted, closed-minded race, but when I read this I almost despair.

Asylum seekers arriving to this country really run the gauntlet -- not only do they have to face the unpredictable and questionable behaviour of the powers that be (ie. Gardai, etc) but they also have to run into the all-too-numerous narrow minded and prejudiced Irish people.

Just because the Gardai have uniforms and a badge, it does not mean they are infallible. A full inquiry is the least we should expect.
karen, Dublin

I was caught up in the 'riot' on Monday night outside City Hall .

Gardai were randomly dragging people, especially in hoodies , from the pavement to the road for some zero tolerance. I've observed disturbances in Berlin and Italy over the years but none as amateur and vicious as the scenes I witnessed on Dame St. If the Gardai are to reclaim any respect , a full internal inquiry is required. Their credibility has been severely tarnished.
Claire, Dublin

It has long been apparent to me that as an institution the Garda merit not respect, they are a corrupt and an instrinsicly rotten institution.

Stand outside the garda club at closing time and see who drives home? Remember, Donegal and the McBreartys, the Tyre contract, the list could go on. I will never have any respect for them until they clean up their act and stop acting as if the law did not apply to them.
Ian Brady, Dublin

They (Gardai)obviously havent learned a single thing from the Abbeylara debacle/assassination re the total over reaction to a situation that was so evidently manageable.

Its a good job there wasnt a free issue of fire arms to the men in blue , or perhaps we would have seen Jenin size amounts of bodies on the streets of Dublin.

You would have thought following 30 years of observing protests of a violent and non violent nature in the North,that much could have been learned about controlling and managing the dynamics of a smallish gathering of a mainly peaceful crowd without having to resort to the outrageous behaviour witnessed on news programmes.

I suppose they will now investigate themselves and find that their actions were totally justified in the circumstances. As for some of the Garda not wearing I.D., you will probably find that they just happened to fall off their uniforms in the course of the scuffles.Like with many of our institutions,the stench from the controllers of power is sickening.
PeeGee,Galway,

For the guards to attack people on the streets is clearly reprehensible: for them to do so under the watch of many video cameras is just thick.

Abbeylara, Abbeyleix and now Dame Street. Three words that do not come to mind are competence, integrity and intelligence.

If an enquiry is set up it MUST NOT be carried out by the guards: we cannot trust them.
T. Bagge, Ireland

by a Wed May 08, 2002 19:31

YES, and not one minute before its time. We can not condone a lawless society with reckless young people constantly taking away the civil rights of the majority of others.

These people have a SF far-left political agenda and want to cause an incitement to riot during the run up to the general election. Jail time is a must for these people who have a violent agenda and purposely trod the civil rights and liberty of a peace loving Dublin people.

The full extent of the law must be applied to stop these types of violent criminal activities by a small minority of tugs. We have to give the Gardai our full support in protecting the human rights of the law abiding peace loving people.
Jim, Cork St., Dublin

This is really the last straw. We've seen the McBrearty case, the plant-drugs in the night club case that was in court again yesterday, the killing of John Carthy, the list goes on and on.

Now we have Garda thugs beating up kids with bells and bongo drums, - and atacking anyone one else who happened to be on their way home from work, at the bus stop, recording on film what was happening.

This is Facism and we have all seen in on our TVs. The Gardaí are clearly out of control, and the present Minister for Justice has repeatedly refused to bring them in under control. He is a total failure.

Who next to be batton charged the Gay Pride Parade, Macnas in Galway (bells and bongos again), St Patrick's day parade? I wish these young Gardaí showed such enthusiasm for their work when it cane to preventing street assaults late at night in O'Connell st, Eyre Square and other places - but of course they might come across lads who'll give them an equal fight then - that's when you won't see the boys in blue.
Fiachra, Galway

Yesterday we heard a lot about sleaze, bribery, brown envelopes. Do Fianna Fail preside over a culture of rampant corruption? Today we hear about police corruption and brutality -- or should we just say incompetence?

But we don't seem to have much taste for those who would clean up corruption and create decent standards of competence in public services.

High-minded leaders, people of principle, are resented. It seems that the Irish people just love the "popular touch" as shown in Bertie's cute-hoor shuffling and mumbling when asked difficult questions.

Well, the same is true in France, the US, and Japan; Jospin may be more principled than Chirac, but he fatally lacks that folksy instinct; Clinton was too intelligent and eloquent for the land of Hollywooditis; Bush's verbal popcorn is a diet that suits them better.

At least in France it's not considered west-brit to talk in an articulate manner. I remember Bertie and Chirac jointly opening the Place de Dublin some 20 years ago. Chirac gave a polished performance, with suitable references to Wilde, Joyce, Beckett, while Bertie, as Lord Mayor of Dublin, did his usual embarrassing mumble (he's improved since I believe).

In the past the Irish people admired eloquence; our fear of it is part of a post-colonial mindset (if you'll pardon that jargon for once). I withdraw my remark of the other day about the desirability of a FF majority.

Even a weak FG-Labour coalition should be welcomed if it can give more principle to our politics. I doubt if any party, however principled, can actually end the incompetence that has left the infrastructure and the health service in such a mess; the roots of the incompetence lie in the texture of Irish culture, among the people rather than the politicians -- unpatriotic though it may be to say so.

Have I anything positive to suggest? Yes, I second the idea that our police should be subject to the same checks and balances as the PSNI.

Why not have joint training exercises -- the Gardai could surely learn a lot from their colleagues who have handled so many difficult situations north of the border?
JSOL, Japan

RMJ: please get a life or at least tap into any kind of logical reasoning that may be lying dormant inside you (which I doubt).The introduction of lax gun laws resembling those of your own social wreck of a nation are hardly a suitable remedy for irish social ills. Crawl back into your ultra-conservative cave and don't come out until you have more holistic and beneficial advice to offer. Not that anyone in Ireland needs to hear it from you anyway.
Anna, Germany
No. Not at all. The pictures say it all. http://www.indymedia.ie/
Seán, Loch Garman

Re: eddie-the Aggravator, Ireland/ex USA; Thank you for expressing exactly my views, who cares what the opinion of the do gooders is, keep it to themselves. What right do they have to attempt to push it down my neck by disrupting my life. The police did the correct thing by enforcing our law and keeping public order. Trashing cars doesn't fall into nice orderly activity!
John, Ireland

I was working at the 'Reclaim the Streets' domonstartion on Monday, as an independant photographer. Although there was some provocation by the crowd at Burgh Quay the reaction of the Gardai was extreme to put it mildly.

On young lad on crutches was arrested and his crutches removed, the reason, he could not retreat from a Gardai baton charge in time because of his crutches. Also the claims that Gardai where not wearing ID numbers I think is borne out by the media images, there is one images floating about which seems to support claims that the Gardai removed their numbers before they charged the crowd.

In summary as someone who was there, there was provocation towards the Gardai by about 15-20 people on Burgh Quay out of a carnival athmosphere of about 800, but the Gardia did over-react a bit on Burgh Quay. It was this confrontation that set the scene for what happened later in the day on Dame Street.
Dave, Ireland

I've precious little time for these anti-capitalist demonstrators and their supposedly peaceful marches that go to cities accross the world to smash them up when G8 meet or use the May day bank holidays as another good excuse to whip people up into a frenzy. The Gardai might have been heavy handed, but we'd be criticising them if they'd let the march get out of control and these "protesters" had trashed half of dame street or grafton street.
Matt L, Ireland

dictatorship is around the corner if young ireland does not wakeup larry b
l breen, united states

Friends of mine were there, so this is a quote from an EYE-WITNESS: "Everything was fine. People were shouting, singing, having a good time. Some stuff was being thrown (cans, etc, nothing like rocks or bottles), but the Gardai didn't seem to be bothered.

Then one of the protestors ran up and knocked a Garda's hat off his head. Immediately the batons came out and the Gardai waded in, breaking heads, kicking, punching - they just went mental."

Don't care what the Gardai say about permitting "ordinary" citizens to go about their business. What happened yesterday was nothing short of fascism...
FractalPat, Ireland

I have to say I'm amazed at some of the comments on here defending the Gardai actions. Are you people blind?

The RTS was a peaceful protest. For all the talk about violent protestors there have been absolutely no reports of injured gardai. At the same time, protestors have been hospitalised, tourists have been beaten, and the footage on TV clearly showed Gardai attacking anyone in range.

There was no property destruction worth speaking of. The only damage done was to an old banger that was brought along by the protestors. What's more, this car was removed HOURS before the garda attacks. It was brought to the party on Burgh quay around 4pm, the baton charges took place on Dame Street, hours later. Clearly the gardai were not acting to stop property destruction.

The people at the party were not looking for a fight. Most of them were teenagers who went along for the party, to listen to the drummers, watch the dancers, and have some fun on a bank holiday Monday. They were not hardened troublemakers, they were kids having fun, and not harming anyone.

The RTS action was winding down when the police attacked. It was down to a couple of hundred pewho just wanted to go to Wood Quay or Stephen's Green and disperse. They were forced onto Dame St by the Garda blocking the other roads, and then they were attacked. Attacked with batons, by gardai who removed their badge numbers, for no good reason. The garda actions were absolutely indefensible.
Ray, Ireland

I am absolutely appalled at the footage that was shown on last nights news. It has become more apparent with the slew of "corrupt Garda" stories in recent times that until these so called "protectors of peace" are answerable to an independent body then they literally will be "a law onto themselves".
Keith, IRELAND

Some action was justified.But beating innocent bypassers certainly is not.The Gardai need an independant authority to oversee the actions of its officers.This is the case in the majority of 'developed' countries.THe GRA are not independant nor is the Dept of Justice.There are a lot of bodies in Ireland that need regulation-i include Estate agents,property developers and politicans...
aidan the homeless, make house prices the main election issue

Landsdowne road, Feb 1995, anyone? The strategic plan on that occasion was something similar - stand around cluelessly and then panic and wade in with sticks flying. Crowd control, eh?

Its a lot trickier than siting in the squad car and nicking punters for being a pint over the limit. Is this value for taxpayers money?

No, but what is in Ireland these days. If they can't marshal a few smelly tree-hugging crusties then they might as well pack it in altogether.
The Lemon Drop Kid, uk

The Guards are tasked with enforcing public order. The demonstration might have started peacefully but the protestors did break the law and the Guards then overreacted.

The protestors should count themselves lucky, if they tried that stunt in Continental Europe or the States they would have been fending off police dogs and tear gas. With an EU leaders meeting in Dublin in 2004 approaching the Guards will need a good set plan for the protestors who wrecked Genoa, who will surely come to Ireland to cause trouble.
Padraig, Ireland

they where just some toffee nosed kids from Killney or Malahide, they could do with a kick or two, they are probs wearing clothes with labels on them, made in SE Asia by little kids, or eat in Macd's even though they are destroying the rain forests, or putting on make up which is made from chemicals destorying nature? They needed a good kick up the you know what!
David, Dublin

Chris, Australia (ex-Derry) I agree that legitimate street protest in something that must be protected at all costs.

However it is clear that within the "Reclaim the streets" and "Anti Capitalist" movements there exists a core that are intent in inciting violence whenever they take to the streets. I have listened to countless anarchists over the years, recall the pleasure they take from provoking the police or causing maximum damage to highlight the "Fascist" Police brutality.

The problem I have with street protest or what have been refereed to as direct action is that it ignores the wishes of everyday people to go about their lives in peace, while failing to engage in real debate handing the initiative and moral high ground to those who wish to take civil liberties away from people. What concerns me is that Monday nights events are becoming a trait for the Anti-Capitalist movement and deferring the debate away from the issues while public order becomes the agenda.

The issue of pollution and the need for greater protection of our environment needs public support and I believe that "Direct action" by engaging in street violence is negatively impacting on people perception of the issues at stake.

Why for example do these movements always attract violent behaviour by relatively small numbers of people, while much larger protests can pass off far more peacefully?

I do agree with some commentators who say that the Gardai are largely untrained for this sort of action, and to blindly accept their side of the story would set a dangerous norm for the future.

I have always supported the setting up for an Independent Gardai commission to investigate inappropriate Gardai behaviour. My point Chris about the Direct action and other anti-capitalist movement is that their tactics is handing the initiative to the far-right who seemed to have the ability to absorb the concerns of ordinary voters while people on the left seem to repel the same voters.

More worrying is that the arguments by anti-capitalists have become deeply flawed and contradictory. As Dec, Dublin pointed out you don’t hear people in the third world rioting about the flaws of Capitalism, preferring to illegally enter Western nations to seek a better living.

I do believe that pure Capitalism is having a negative social impact on our society with the wealthiest period in human history also uncovering some of the greatest social problems. The emphasis on a high growth economy is having an adverse affect on the social fabric of our society while our infrastructure struggles with play catch-up with the pace of change. If people want a wealth driven society then they have to cope with the social impact of low-cost services and greater disparity of wealth in our society.

Make no mistake I support many of the issues raised by the Anti-Capitalist movement but I despise an over-aggressive street campaign that I see as counter to the cause. Of course the police are going to fight back, because if you get minority who plan to incite violence then there will be a minority within the Gardai that will also over-react.
Fintan, Netherlands

There is no doubt that it was premeditated police brutality. Gárdaí stormed s 'peaceful protest', according to eye-witnesses, and apparently many of them had removed their identification numbers before the fray.

When the Gárdaí Síochána (Guardians of the Peace) start using violence at a peaceful protest, they are denying citizens their democratic rights.

Gárdaí are not above the law. Such behaviour by those who are meant to keep law and order is disgraceful. A thorough inquiry, an explanation, and a sincere apology is entitled to all the civilians who were involved, especially those who were hurt by this brutality.

Corruption continues to haunt the establishment in this country. My conspiracy theory would show that the Gárdaí may have been instructed to take measures such as these to divert attention from the cause of the demonstration.

In suport of the rally, I would like to point out that the City centre has been destroyed by motors and pollution from motors. An improvement in public transport and a complete ban on cars within City limits is definitely in order, however the likelihood of this ever happening is slim to none.

Who controls it all? Not the citizens of Dublin, no, a small core group of faceless billionaires who have invested in the numerous multi-storey car-parks.

It is in their interests to continue having traffic jams in the city, to continue with the overflow of cars coming into the city etc. Ultimately, they are the reason why our public transport service is still practically non-existant. No doubt they pay politicians backhanders to keep it this way.

We need some Christians in our political system, before we all go to rot!
Éire Aontaithe, Oileán na hÉireann

Interesting to see that the killer of Pim Fortuyn was an extreme liberal. The kind that supported animal rights. No doubt he was also, anti-globalisation and whatever else is popular with the useful idiots of the day.

A man that would not hurt a fly (it has rights), gunned down a fellow human being in cold blood.

The Gardai are not to blame until proven otherwise.
Alan, Dubba

I support the right of the Gardai to defend themselves. Its a bloody hard job. I was on the streets of Dublin the night Bobby Sands died in 1981. The Guards had to face down some serious trouble that night. And they did it really well.

I await the next taxi-drivers strike/farmers protest...etc etc with great anticipation. The disruption caused by these two groups alone merit a serious baton-charge. Free up the Guards to impose a little law and order on our streets.

Let them loose in Dublin and impose a bit of manners on the thugs and criminals that make life such a misery for us law-abiding citizens. We cant defend ourselves, the State wont let us bear arms.

Let this be a new standard for our Gardai, that they wont accept anti-social and criminal behaviour from *any* part of society. Abolish tribunals, make criminals pay..not crime pay.

ELse leave the average law-abiding person the freedom to defend himself without fear of being jailed for using 'excessive force'...I'm with RMJ on this one. Let the citizens bear arms and defeat the cancer in our society!!!!!!!!!!!
tadhg r, ireland

The Guards were dead right in my opinion. One or two of them definitely went OTT and should be punished, but in general they behaved properly.

Who do these little punks think they are. This anti-car rally was just an excuse for the kids of posh folk from D4 to protest. So they left their skateboards behind, got their parents to drop them into town in the 4 x 4, complete with rhino bars, and off they go 'protesting'.

They think it's, like cool like, to protest 'cos they have nothing better to do in their gap year in shool.Do you hear them being interviewed. They all had marbles in their mouth!!! Not one of them could explain to you if they tried what globalisation was about, never mind what reclaim the streets means.

If they are anti-globalisation let them start by refusing to accept their pocket money from Dad, the stockbroker.Or let the more mature ones stop taking the dole they collect from tax payers who are benefitting from globalisation and an improved Irish economy.

It's all pathetic. They claimed it was their own car they were smashing up as an act of symbolism. But how were the guards to know. And all the other cars they jumped and leapt on...please.

The guards were right if a little OTT as I said earlier. But hopefully this will stop these kind of people in their tracks before they get the chance to do a Seattle or Genoa on Dublin.
Judger McD, Sligo

People expect the police to maintain Law & Order. It's about time they let them do just that. Tears are shed when the Guarda are killed in action doing their duties, but when they do try to do something about it and members of the public get hurt,there is an outcry. How else are we going to put a stop to all the violence and crime that is so rife in the world today.
Shirley Daly, Ireland

Pat from galway page1. Stop talking through your A£$$. If the gardi spent more time in dealing with "proper crime" ie Joy riders, muggings etc instead of beating the head off of protesters there would'nt be as much Bad mouthing the gardi.
Barry, From the land of the better things to do

this proves two things once and for all: 1. the gardai need to be policed themselves by an independent ombudsman. 2. Dublin needs its own metropolitan police force once again. This force needs to be composed of (mostly) dubs policing dubs for dublin, its pointless having gombeen men from kerry coming up and experiencing crime for the first time when they take to the beat on the streets of the capital. Maybe the brits had it right with the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the RIC for the culchies.
super dub, Ireland
A guarded "yes", I think. Those who think otherwise might reflect on how "reclaim the streets" demonstrators are handled by professional riot police in other jurisdictions. The right to demonstrate is fine - but destructive or excessively disruptive demonstrations at the expense of the rights of others are unacceptable. The worrying thing is how unprepared the Guards are for such "festivals". I was aware of this event from scrawls on various walls and hoardings around town. It was also publicised on tourism-related websites. Anyone who knows anything about the "anti-globalisation" movement knows that "reclaim the streets festivals" inevitably involve obstructive protests such as "slow cycling", and often involve violent demonstrations. Our Plod, however, having apparently noticed that the event was on from a website, took at its word an indication on the same website that it had been called off. It does not appear to have occurred to any of Templemore's Finest that the latter message, coming from this particular source, might have been a tad unreliable. Having thus been caught on the hop, the Folks in Blue first under-responded; when things predictably got out of hand, over-reaction of the type last seen in the course of the British Embassy riots set in. What I find worrying about all this is that no improvement in Garda training or discipline in relation to the control of potentially disruptive/violent demonstrations seems to have occurred in all the years since the Embassy riots. This is particularly worrying in view of our forthcoming Presidency of the European Union, which may be expected to attract demonstrations with the potential of disruption and violence without precedent here to Dublin in particular. The Guards need to get their act together on this - and fast.
JR, Ireland

by C. Wed May 08, 2002 19:32

boards.ie has a thread on it's humanities board
a lot of slagging of Indymedia and hippies from all the underemployed techies

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=50827&goto=newpost

nologo also have a discussion - started by the guy Jay who was up here slagging the protest off.

by Jon Wilde Thu May 09, 2002 10:48 Arkaos at subdimension dot com

Gotta stick my hand up on behalf of techies. We're not all Beemer shagging, righty, Dublin 4 assholes thanks very much.