Sinn Fein to attend White House for St Patricks Day

by Sparks Wed Mar 12, 2003 19:16

It's rather ironic that a party with members who have run guns and admitted to being terrorists are now being received in the White House during the War on Terrorism. Perhaps a few pointed questions on FARC will see Gerry getting a personal tour round some Marine Corps bases, say in cuba?

by pat c Wed Mar 12, 2003 19:29

ah justin, irony is dead & satire is on its last legs. to these who know no better 'tis skillful.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed Mar 12, 2003 19:40 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Interesting criticisms they may be, especially the ones not completey false, but skillful in terms of some-one pretending to be some-one else? Hardly.

As to the point in question, Sinn Féin has made its stance on the war on Iraq perfectly clear to the American administration and, pay attention now, they don't care. The American government is happy to ignore the UN, they don't mind what we say on Iraq because we're not relevant to them on this issue. And if they don't care what we think on the subject then boys and girls, imagine the importance they put on your opinion. Go on, sit there a sec and think about it. Put down your copy of the Socialist Worker and think about it for a sec, let the real world in. The best we can do in terms of opposing the war in Ireland is to try and prevent this state being involved in it.

As to going to the States and going to Washington, it's necessary to do this because the Peace Process needs American involvement. We can stay home, make a political point no-one but some irrelevant fringe Trot sect would care about and allow the Northern situation to be represented by Trimble, or we can go put our analysis forward and try to advance a life or death political process. It's politics for grown-ups kids. One day you'll understand.

by Justin watcher Wed Mar 12, 2003 19:53

So Justin can you not see the hypocracy in your parties actions on St Pat's day?

On the streets of Dublin and in the Dáil you are saying you are anti war yet when it comes down to it you care more about having a cheese and wine reception with Bush and co. And then you have the gaul to say it is in the interests of the 'peace process'. Well what about the peace process in the Gulf?! Why don't you show your 'opposition' to Bush's war by refusing to meet him. Of course you won't do this as your party is being bankrolled by the oil millionaires. i bet Adams wont publicly critisise Bush on the lawn of the white house either.

"the Peace Process needs American involvement"

Involvemnt from Bush? how can this man really bring any real peace. If the peace process is to succeed it will be through the actions of people in Ireland not a corrupt rotten elite in America.

"The best we can do in terms of opposing the war in Ireland is to try and prevent this state being involved in it."

Probably true, but when we have the oppurtunity to hob nob and socialise with Bush should we grab that oppurtunity?

Can even you not see the hypocracy? How do you think that is viewed by the thousands of people that came out to protest on february 15? This is yet another example of what SF are really like.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:04 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Have always wondered why so many people on Indymedia refuse to identify themselves, either through using their full names, or their initials like Pat C, but frankly if I had your habit of routinely embarrassing myself with ridiculous arguments I'd probably hide my identity as well.

We're funded by oil millionaires? *lol* They're serving cheese and wine at Bush's reception? Why Justin-watcher me old sock, you clearly know my party much better than me. I was unaware they were serving cheese, or indeed wine. I had no idea we had a bevy of oil millionaires funding us. The things you learn if you listen to people fumbling about without any evidence beyond their own spite and in the face of the fact that at the last General Election we ere only the foourth highest spenders, which makes sense when you consider we're the third biggest party on the island and have to fight in two juristictions.

We don't refuse to meet Bush because a) it's pointless and wouldn't change anything and b) we're not going to weaken our stance in the Six which would be affected by such a decision.

We've made our stance on Iraq clear to the Americans, in public, in their embassy here in Ireland, in America, in the American State Department. They are far more aware of our opposition to the war than they are of probably any other party. That doesn't mean they're going to change their mind. As I pointed out, they're ignoring governments and international organisations, ignoring us isn't much of a stretch.

As to how it is viewed by the thousands of people who came out on the 15th, since you know about our funding, since you know about the cheese AND the wine, I'm sure the only person qualified to comment on what 120,000 people feel is yourself. I wouldn't dream of expressing an opinion on the subject.

Grow up son, or at least identify yourself. It's not half as much fun laughing at some-one without a name.

by justin watcher Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:16

Your party is funded by big business in America. Are you denying this?

You seem to take great amusment at the fact that I say there s cheese and wine at bush's receptions. Sorry for my ignorance about the food offered at the white house but I am not as familiar with it as you lot.

You say of refusing to meet Bush that "it's pointless and wouldn't change anything". The fact is that it is not pointless. If SF refused to meet Bush on St Pat's day you would be sending out a message that Bush is a terrorist and a murderer and he does not act in the interests of ordinary peole around the world. Imagine what publicity it would get world wide if SF took a strong anti war stance and publicly came out against Bush and refused to go to the White House.

You also say by not meeting Bush it would weaken your stance in the North. But the question is among who?? It would weaken your stance among the capitalist class that support Bush and Blairs war. But it would show to those who are anti war in the North that SF have some principles and are prepared to forgoe a posh nosh up for these principles. Remember a vast majority in the North are anti war but none of the other parties are against war. By refusing to meet Bush it can only but strenghten your stance in the North. But of course who do you wish to please the capitalists or ordinary people?

"We've made our stance on Iraq clear to the Americans"

I think they are getting mixed messages, one time your protesting against their war the next you are socialising with them.

by Des Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:18

The pathetic spectacle of a party that was once described as anti imperialist socialising with Bush at a time when he is planning an obscene resource war which will result in a major loss of Iraqi lives is a sad example of the degeneration of an organisation who sent young men and women out to risk their lives in a war to achieve a united Ireland and then somersaulted and (after it eventually occurred to them that the war was unwinnable) took their seats in a parliament that they had sworn to bring down, with of course generous salaries and expenses. They then proceeded to assist in the implementation of Thatcherite policies such as privatising schools and closing hospitals and opposing the justified claim of the term time workers, not to mention supporting service charges in the south (in practice) while verbally, in a most hypocritical way opposing them. I wonder when Gerry is presenting Bush with the “shamrock” and knocking down Dubya’s food and booze, will he mention Iraq! Somehow I doubt it!!!

by Justin Watcher Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:27

People that are against SF or any other Irish politicians going to the white house this Paddy's day to socialise with Bush as he draws up plans for a resource war in Iraq should post what they think of SF's decision here.

by Jim Maxwell Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:29

Justin will you always support the party line even when it is glaringly wrong as in this case?

by King Mob Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:29

Do you not see how meeting Bush doing the platitutes and photo op makes a mockery out of every Sinn Fein poster and every Sinn Fein speech about Shannon.

News flash YOU FUCKING WHORE US troops out of shannon won't stop the war we've been saying that for fucking monthes, what we are saying is by rejecting US troops in shannon we are rejecting OUR involvement and particaption in this War.

And y'know fuck the peace process if you're so commited to the peace you'd boycott the fucking US and their involvement.

JUSTIN I CANNOT DESCRIBE THE NAKED FUCKING CONTEMPT I FEEL FOR YOU AND YOUR PARTY. And for you to come on here and try to pretend that the behaviour of the FUCKING BITCHES that yank your chain just lets us know how fast and loose you play with your morals.......

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed Mar 12, 2003 20:39 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Justin watcher:

1. Yes. Absolutely, while laughing at the ridiculousness of the notion.

2. I take amusement because clearly you know all, see all and understand all. You're the one claiming to know what they serve not I.

3. We do all of the things you suggest in your third paragraph and we have a strong anti-war stance having made our stance on it clear in their embassy, in street protests, in Leinster House, to their State Dept, in public statements in America and here. We've opposed American foreign policy for decades.

4. It would weaken our stance in negotiations. 'posh nosh'? *lol* The Beano School of Debate? As for strengthening our hand in the North, we'll see whether we're up or down in May shall we? Let us decide what's best for us in the North and whats best for us in the negotiations. The help of bumbling amateurs is interesting only in sit-coms.

5. I don't think they're getting mixed messages. They are aware that it is possible to work with people with whom you don't agree on everything with. They can separate our policy on Iraq from what is going on in the North and vice versa. We know their stance, they know ours, but we have to work together. Neither of us loves the idea, but we're grown-up enough to understand the political context.

Des:

1. First off, I'm a member of Sinn Féin, not an organisation that has sent anyone out to die. Secondly, the organisation you are in your political immaturity mixing us up with was fighting for a socialist republic, not a united Ireland.

2. War is merely an extension of politics. The reverse is true. We believe we can achieve our objective peacefully in the context of the gains won by armed struggle. Why? Got better ideas?

3. As for the salaries and expenses, all our elected reps take average industrial wage and pay the rest to the party or community groups. That, btw justin-watcher, is where we get a lot of our money.

4. Usual inaccurate drival on privatisation and service charges.

5. We've told the Yanks on several occasions to their face we oppose the war, but they don't care. We can't affect their opinion on this but we can try and make change happen here.

Jesus boys, do either of yese live in the real world at all? If this is the intellecutal standard the fringe left has it's pretty fucking poor. Done with this now, if you want to pursue it, you have my email address, after all, I'm not ashamed of my arguments.

by Shelta Wed Mar 12, 2003 22:13

Adams is welcome in the warmongers Big(white)House on St. Patricks Day because he has cooperated fully with Anglo-American imperialism in subjugating Ireland, North and South, to that imperialism.

by cleo Wed Mar 12, 2003 22:40

Come on now King, you know you really want to, use the T*** and F***** words, come on now, you know you're dying to use them, you're very free and easy with them in my company, don't hold back, on account of Justin. Just let it all go, as you have done in the past, what's a matter, scared?

by King Mob Wed Mar 12, 2003 23:21

Critizing the whoremongers in Sinn Fein doesn't make me a dup member.

King Mob

-When does encouraging debate make me anti american?-

Paul Newman

by cleo shoukri Wed Mar 12, 2003 23:35

I think you'll find you're the dumbo dunce King, you seriously miscalculated and misjudged the 'C'company, Adair, coco situation. If I was you're boss, I'd have you strung up, for your totally out of touch, mishandling and bungling. Again it just goes to show you, try and learn this lesson, We rule working class loyalist areas, not you or your stuck up pig friends, get use to it.

by hunter - pfln Thu Mar 13, 2003 00:04

justin, are you jestin' or wha?

"We've opposed American foreign policy for decades."

aye sure ye have, certainly when it comes into conflict with your interests in, say, Colombia (oh how easily we forget the FARC). i will grant you this - BUT, even tho' you are 'opposed' to US foriegn policy, you (in classic double-think stylee) are willing to have them poke their imperialist noses into the 'peace process' in the north.

"Let us decide what's best for us in the North and whats best for us in the negotiations."

A slip of the tounge there surely justin? Please tell me you meant to say "what's best for the people in the North" and not 'whats best for us'. Or maybe not...

"They are aware that it is possible to work with people with whom you don't agree on everything with."

Don't agree on EVERYTHING??!!??? another slip of the tounge? surley as 'socialists' with a "proud history of anti-imperialism" you should not agree with the arch-imperialists on ANYTHING!!!! or are the Brits the only imperialist force you are concerned with?

"was fighting for a socialist republic, not a united Ireland."

(Ahem) You honestly belive this? To quote yourself - "the ridiculousness of the notion".

"War is merely an extension of politics. The reverse is true."

Oh really? so what you are saying is that if the political road fails, you'll be going back to armed conflict? But din't ye just say that the IRA and the Shinners were NOT the same organisation? Are you confused or wha?

"Usual inaccurate drival on privatisation and service charges"

McGuinness opposed the payment of term time workers . FACT. Sinn Fein have presided over cut-backs in the health service. Fact. Sinn Fein voted FOR the bin tax in Sligo and recived as a payoff a the mayors seat. Fact (and don't give me any bullshit about 'saving democracy in the sligo council). Sinn Fein is not ideologically opposed to PFI in either Healt or Education. Fact? (perhaps you could clear this up for me?) And to quote 'watcher' "Your party is funded by big business in America. Are you denying this?" - you never answered...

maybe jestin' justin is jealous that as a mere party hack he doesn't get to go and see bushy boy in An Teach Bán?

by IMC Thu Mar 13, 2003 00:26

inn Fein and the anti war movement
by King Mob Wed, Mar 12 2003, 7:51pm

Yes it's me and I'm sure many people loath the sight of my name, but I'm here to make a valid point on Indymedia about Sinn Fein being present in the white house this St Paddys day

This is one of the most contemptable pieces of turn around by an irish political party in the last year.

What makes this behaviour so sickening is Justin Moran (Sinn Feins full time apologist on Indymedia) trying to defend Sinn Fein's stance on Indymedia, he argues that this is okay since the war will happen, and hey it's important for the peace process.

Over the last few monthes Sinn Fein have shoved themselves to the front of the anti war movement at every march and every occasion sinn fein have pushed their speakers forward and pushed the placards to the front.

To argue that appearing at the Whitehouse now because war is going to happen is contemptable. War would happen whether or not shannon was used as a base, this wasn't the point people protested because they felt if war was going to happen it would not happen with the consent of the irish people and not with the resources of an irish base. These are the words and sentiment of Sinn Fein speakers, this is a loathsome piece of political backpeddling of the highest level of contempt.

As for the level of involvement of the bush administration in the current peace process, bush frankly hasn't displayed a 1/10th of the interest of Clinton, and furthermore if our peace process is so fragile that it requires the involvement of a corrupt war mongering administration then we are in more dire straits than before.

A month ago I asked justin whether his party would be in the US this St Paddys and would they speak out againist the war while there. The cavalier attitude of their offical indymedia apologist lets us know that the anti war message will be dismissed and ignored as a piece of inconvinent excess luggage this St Paddys weekend, though you can be sure the bowl of shamrocks and bottle of powers will be tucked firmly away in the overhead compartment. The fact that this weekend is the weekend war will occur is the last straw in Sinn Feins credibiltly.

Sinn Fein demanded and recieved a senior observer role in the IAWN, and the way they wriggled out of their morals, means they must now be expelled, and their presence must be made unwelcome at all future anti war meetings.

Some of us have spines.

KM
-be realistic demand the impossible-

add your comments
COMMENTS

Fair play, Sinn Fein
by A non-shinner Wed, Mar 12 2003, 8:11pm

It can't be an easy choice but Sinn Féin are right. They haven't been quiet about their opposition to war, but their priority remains peace in Ireland.

These two positions are consistant, even if the reactionaries and the whiners can't handle it.

Sinn Féin know more about non-violent conflict resolution than most, despite their history. They are a credit to this country.

Full-time?
by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed, Mar 12 2003, 8:12pm
[email protected]

King Mob, if you think we'd waste money employing some-one to monitor your nonsense and misrepresentation on a full-time basis your over-inflated sense of your own importance must be truly an incredible site. If you want to object to our presence, come to the next anti-war meeting demo, find the Sinn Féin bloc, find me, and object to my presence in person.

Justin
by King Mob Wed, Mar 12 2003, 8:18pm

I will be ramming that placard so far up your arse, that your dentist will be reading the lies and platitutes written on it.

Notice how you haven't bothered responding to anything else.

And non shinner mind explaining to me how puckering up to Bush is making Ireland a better place cause Sinn Fein haven't....

FUCKING WHORES

I think...
by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed, Mar 12 2003, 8:35pm
[email protected]

...non-shinner was being sarcastic Mr Mob. He may actually be on your side.

No, I wasn't
by non-shinner Wed, Mar 12 2003, 9:01pm

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. I think that Sinn Féin has demonstrated a real, practical committment to non-violent conflict resolution. Because of SF's unique past they have become familiar with the realities of very real conflict resolution in a way that other parties haven't.

Sinn Féin are world experts in conflict resolution. They should be sharing what they've learned in the last five years with the Israelies, Palistinians, Americans, Iraqis, etc.

is Powers the SF whiskey?
by iosaf Wed, Mar 12 2003, 9:04pm

awful stuff.
dont worry King Mob I'll be really rude to Americans and Irish people on March 17.
There are six really dodgy Irish pubs in my neighbourhood and they have played a vital part in the speculation which has carried with it increased evictions, property price increases and effing awful names. The latest "irish bar" is "The Temple Bar". It caters to tourists who are the only ones who can afford the prices and is opposite the "molly Malone" on Calle Ferran the traditional entrance to "free Barcelona".

One struggle, one enemy
by Shelta Wed, Mar 12 2003, 9:04pm

The so-called peace process was devised by Anglo-America, with the Anglicized Irish-Americans playing a supporting role. The subjugation of Ireland, North and South, to Anglo-American imperialism is no different, in principle, to the subjugation of Iraq. Because the Adams faction of the republican movement has cooperated fully with this subjugation process it is fitting that Adams plays the shoneen at the Big(White)House on St. Patricks Day. The anti-war sentiments they express in Ireland are only for the gullible.

one struggle one enemy?¿?¿?¿? but many whiskeys.
by ipsiphi;-) Wed, Mar 12 2003, 9:07pm

JUSTIN which is it?
Powers, Paddy, Jameson or Blackmills?

or is Middletons?
by ipsiphi;-) Wed, Mar 12 2003, 9:12pm

(the really expensive one). IS that the whiskey Adams and crew will be knocking back in Washington? and what will they be mixing it with?
ice? splash of Red? will they be drinking it straight?
I almost attended a "whiskey tasting course" as part of my Irish state Social Welfare hoop jumping, this would have got me off the official figures and into some Fás catagory. I would have spent three weeks tasting mostly Jamesons and at the end got a certificate.
Would Sinn Fein know a Paddy´s from a Powers in a blind test?

I know Mr Adams might, sure he was a barman, he probably has loads of ideas for mixers and no end of thought on the "gills".
JUSTIN we demand answers.
:-)

King pot calling the kettle....
by cleo shoukri Wed, Mar 12 2003, 9:20pm

King I think recent events prove that yourself, your LVF mates, Johnny Adair, and Roy Green know all about whores and running brothels. How's Johnny's brothel now?,how's Roy green's child pimping going? and how is 'coco's handicrafts doing? won't be long now King, i've got your number, you're next.

Hey Cleo
by King Mob Wed, Mar 12 2003, 10:11pm

Have they up'd your thorozine? cause frankly you need some more, critizing sinn fein doesn't make me a loyalist as well you know.

Justin has scampered like a good little sinn fein mollusc from real debate.

How does posing for a photo out on the white house lawn make peace more likely in the north?

How does announcing that "war will happen anyway" justify this behaviour and not show that you have paid lip service to the anti war movements ideals? War will happen without Irelands involvement or with it, it's important that we fight to ensure we play no part in it. Its the least we can do.

But Sinn Fein show us that morals are an awkward event to be avoided.

You are beyond and beneath contempt

Agree with King Mob on this one
by Paul Kinsella - Various Wed, Mar 12 2003, 10:24pm
address: 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire phone: 087-9748511 [email protected]

Sinn Fein are such a bunch of opportunists and hypocrites. They'll do anything for publicity and power, whilst at the same time pretending to be still 'radical' and 'socialist'. Not just the Anti war movement either King Mob. Service Charges - Pretend to be 'opposed' to them in Dublin, while at the same time voting for them in Sligo, and what's even worse voting in favour of privatising the bin collection service in Sligo, all so they could get the Mayoralty in Sligo. Better be careful now or else I might be kneecapped. Anyway King Mob fair play for having the balls to stand up to these opportunists.

no surprise
by nolympics Wed, Mar 12 2003, 10:25pm

Sinn fein's oppurtunistic gymnastics on everything should come as no surprise to any of us. its a route well marked already by the stickies and fianna fail. as moderate social democrats and relativley small parliamentary players their objective is to increase their vote, nothing more. alienating their fundamentalist pals in washington, who have already hung them out over colombia, would contribute nothing to this strategy so they wont go there. at the same time wahingtons isolation over iraq provides an oppurtunity to be good minions, shinners would be crazy to upset the apple cart. theyve made their bed and this is just the kissingerian world they now inhabit. its unlikely to cost them anything though as they are still, being small and relatively powerless, able to assume costless idealistic and even leftish positions on issues without actually doing anything of substance. when they eventually join up with fianna fail in coalition and within a couple of elections help form a centre right govt, then perhaps their percieved militancy and radicalism can be finally forgotten.

by zzzzzzzzzz Thu Mar 13, 2003 01:13

Where are your criticisms of Sinn Fein or is your sharp wit just aimed at socialists of various descriptions.

Yawn

zzzzzzzzz..........

by Bertie's bootlicker. Thu Mar 13, 2003 01:35

But I doubt Gerry will be able to convince Dubya to disarm.

by King Mob Thu Mar 13, 2003 01:41

Kinsella using this as an excuse to have a go over THE FUCKING BIN TAX

You little small minded shit, focus on bigger issues and not just a chance to slag off your opposition and talk up your party.

jesus paul you make me want to puke.

and justin care to answer any of the issues raised today!

by GreenPartyMike - Green Party Mike Thu Mar 13, 2003 05:34 ollamhfaery at earthlink dot net

For the record, as an American who lived in the North and is a commited activist against this insane war (and a former supporter of Sinn Fein and the armed struggle) I was wondering what Gerry Adams and Co would do. Justin, I am now completely ashamed of the leadership of the Republican Movement. Unles you all pull an act like Bernadette against Maulding (or was it Willie Whitelaw?) and I sure am not holding my breath on this one.
This hows the absolute complete betrayal of the "Republican" Leadership. Bernadette Devlin has been barred but Gerry Adams is wined and dined by the thug, George Bush. This speaks volumes.
Chucky Armani is now more than a joke.
However you can gather more cash from your fundraisers and continue seeking your "investment" from the elites. Or even go attend more WTO gatherings
Bernadette in Coalisland, Gerry in Washington, need I say more.

by daoine eile. Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:51

is cén uisce beatha?

by Gaillimhed Thu Mar 13, 2003 13:00

Sinn fein, means *ourselves* doesnt it, well there you go, thats whos side their on.

by disgusted by sf Thu Mar 13, 2003 13:26

Ah, the tiny crumbs of truth spill from the lips of fools.... here it is

"We can stay home, make a political point no-one but some irrelevant fringe Trot sect would care about and allow the Northern situation to be represented by Trimble", Justin Moran.

There you go now, apparently only irrelevant fringe trot sects are interested in having a spine over Iraq and shannon.
Sinn fein dont give a fuck, sinn fein. me fein, spineless.

by pat c Thu Mar 13, 2003 18:17

my last comment was deleted, in it i included an email from someone (pretending?) to be aidan ,this included the persons email.

was it really from aidan? if so why was it giving incorrect info?

if not, then why was it deleted? if someone is going to use an email to impersonate an imc editor then whats wrong with putting the email on imc?

anyway other stuff was also deleted:

SF

Imho SF are wrong to meet with the US butchers.
SF should also respond to the Green Party posting on Stormont support for the Arms Industry.

by Des Thu Mar 13, 2003 19:57

Even though you have withdrawn from the debate, engaged in your very own cessation so to speak, I still wish to reply to the points you have made.
Pull the other one Justin, it is not exactly a secret that SF/IRA are linked and one does not have to be an admirer of Trimble to work that one out. As for fighting for a socialist republic, it is rather difficult to take such a statement seriously given the record of SF ministers in the Executive, where they implemented blatantly Thatcherite policies. The privatisation of schools via PFI and the closure of hospitals are a matter of record as is your support for service charges in Sligo and Dublin albeit in a somewhat covert manner. I fail to understand why you would wish to deny the obvious. Are Bairbre and Martin not keeping you up to date? Socialising with Bush and co. at the present time reflects no credit on your organisation; at the very least your absence would indicate your solidarity with the Iraqi people. Your presence at the stage Irish farce however speaks for itself, as does your non-appearance at Shannon on March 1 because of the threat of “violence”, priceless!!

by SP supporter Thu Mar 13, 2003 20:44

I dont see Pat C being at the forefront of criticising SF- who are exposed as a capitalist party that are being funded by US imperialists. Instead Pat holds up all his criticism and hatred for genuine workering class parties like the Socialist Party.

by MNM Thu Mar 13, 2003 21:03

Roses are Red,
Violets are Blue,
Get over it Pat,
She dumped you.

by Killian Forde - Sinn Fein Fri Mar 14, 2003 01:34

What nasty bile from a variety of people who have a serious problem with SF. Reading the above it comes as no surprise that the hatred of SF varies, but that weird thread that I have seen before on indymedia goes along the lines of "when SF supported the armed struggle you were terrorist and now your not you are sell out phonies".

So on that logic would the SF haters above support SF if the IRA restarted their campaign and SF were, again vilified by the print media, banned from the ariwaves and excluded from holding office or manging budgets in Ireland.

It seems to me that the bile of the contributors above emanates from the fact that 1) they despise SF and republicians because of the armed struggle 2) they are...well simply... envious of their success in politics. The former reason also magnifies the latter resulting in a terible affliction of the sort of posts above.

As for the Sligo bin charges? I don't think the people of Baghdad are too concerned about that issue. I mean talk about off the point.

As for the bankrolling of SF the unglamourous and boring reality is that we all fundraise in our communities; pub quizes, race nights, draws, etc. As we are popular people come and contribute to our events. The details are posted in ap/rn each week if you want to check. Sorry if you are a bit dissapointed with the boring truth on that myth.

As I am standing for election for SF next year believe me when I tell you there is no hidden or secret millions.

Nonetheless donations to my election fund can be sent to Acc no 12564231 sort code 90-00-19.

Go raibh maith agat :)

by pat c Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:41

Keep it up! The SY Tots 'n' Trots are showing how the SP are incapable of engaging in political debate. THey just send out their (more) stupid members to make personal attacks.

They seem to be incapable of reading as well, they missed my criticism of SF above. Ah, they are none so blind as they who cannot see.

My previous criticism of SF was deleted.

I'm still not sure if someone is impersonating Aidan. Clarify?

by ipsiphi Fri Mar 14, 2003 13:33

living in Barcelona as I do, I rarely get to drink Irisdh whiskey, the supermarket sells a blended Scotch weurgh! and the cheapest avaibable is about 5.99€. I do nurse the occasional craving for a good tipple of Irish Whiskey a small glass costs about 3.50€ for a mere finger fraction of a dram, and a bottle of Jameson comes in at about 25€ a bottle of Middleton though is really expensive at about 150€.
donations to Mr O´as-if´s whiskey fund:

Caixa Catalúnya 2013-0239-15-0200853088

I promise not to run against Killian Forde who we will remember launced his global cyber campaign here.

by pat c Fri Mar 14, 2003 13:40

I was asked to clarify things further.

Someone claiming to be Aidan O'Brien mailed me saying that a mail (supposedly by me but a fake) would not be deleted. He gave the impression that he was speaking on behalf of IMC.

As the mail was in fact deleted, he obviously didnt represent the views of IMC.

I then posted a copy of the mail I received, this was deleted (by Aidan?).

I received another mail from Aidan (?) claiming the fake was deleted by Daithi against Aidans wishes.

Is Aidan on a solo run , doing what he wants on IMC, deleting or refusing to delete messages at a whim? Or is it all a set up?

As fake messages from Brian Cahill, Oisin etc have been deleted why was Aidan (if its him) taking a different stance re me.

by pat c Fri Mar 14, 2003 13:41

or maybe its just a Thursday thing.

by Aidan Fri Mar 14, 2003 17:36

You can be so sodding annoying.

Chain of events.

Someone posted comments using the name pat c. These comments are neither abusive or offensive.

You then email indymedia demanding it be removed.

Both myself and Daithi are on active editorial at the moment, and have a difference of opinion, I see it that the comment by the other pat c do not breach editorial guidelines, and you dont have soul rights to the use of the name pat c. Ive deleted other fake comments before but these always contained abuse.

While Im emailing you to tell you this daithi deletes the comment. Difference of opinion on our parts and not really a big deal.

Now this is where you wander down the fucking rabbit hole of your own insanity.

You decide that the email from ME is in fact someone impersonating ME and put it up as a comment on this thread.

Considering your own rantings about privacy its a teeny bit hyprocritical, and furthermore seeing as Im not wild about having my email address on the site, the comment is removed.

So to clarify this massive waste of time and impressively the stupidist thread youve dragged me in that youve caused me,

Essenrially pat in my opinion there was reason for the comment by the other pat c to be removed, you dont own your name and there was no abuse in the comment. Daithi sided with you. See no one person decides things here. You then wander off on some mad little conspiracy theory, decide im impersonating myself, and then demand to know why a comment you put up which contained my details was removed.

I cannot believe i have wasted ten minutes of my life responding to this gibberish.

by pat c Fri Mar 14, 2003 18:15

"You can be so sodding annoying.

Chain of events.

Someone posted comments using the name pat c. These comments are neither abusive or offensive.

You then email indymedia demanding it be removed."

They were offensive as far as I was concerned. You removed remarks supposedly by Brian Cahill OKJ etc, do you have a grudge against me?

"Both myself and Daithi are on active editorial at the moment, and have a difference of opinion, I see it that the comment by the other pat c do not breach editorial guidelines, and you dont have soul rights to the use of the name pat c. Ive deleted other fake comments before but these always contained abuse. "

Pat C is the name I go by. Are you saying its ok if I post as Aidan O'Brien from now on?

"While Im emailing you to tell you this daithi deletes the comment. Difference of opinion on our parts and not really a big deal."

So what made you send a mail to my personal email address claiming you were speaking on behalf of IMC?

"Now this is where you wander down the fucking rabbit hole of your own insanity.
You decide that the email from ME is in fact someone impersonating ME and put it up as a comment on this thread."

How is it insane to query the veracity of an email? It was from an address I'd never seen you use before. The contents of the mail contradicted the actions of IMC.

"Considering your own rantings about privacy its a teeny bit hyprocritical, and furthermore seeing as Im not wild about having my email address on the site, the comment is removed."

As I said, as far as I knew the mail was from someone impersonating you. I would not have posted it if I thought it was from you.

"So to clarify this massive waste of time and impressively the stupidist thread youve dragged me in that youve caused me,"

You are the one who is wasting time. I would be happier if if you didnt email me.

"Essenrially pat in my opinion there was reason for the comment by the other pat c to be removed, you dont own your name and there was no abuse in the comment."

In that case you dont own the Aidan O'Brien name.
As I said, I thought it was abusive. Again I point to the Cahill, OK, etc deletions.

"Daithi sided with you. See no one person decides things here. You then wander off on some mad little conspiracy theory, decide im impersonating myself, and then demand to know why a comment you put up which contained my details was removed."

No conspiracy theory, you were the one who acting in a very odd manner. As I said, for all I knew, it could have been from the person(s) who was impersonating Ray, Cahill, OK, King Mob & myself.

"I cannot believe i have wasted ten minutes of my life responding to this gibberish. "

I feel even worse, if I hadnt got your dumb email in the first place, then none of this would have occurred.

Aidan, your Emperor complex has done you dpwn once again. You are no Alpha Male, you are the Omega Man.

by Aidan O'Brien (Pat C) Fri Mar 14, 2003 18:18

If you just used the Gabriel Syme name on Thursdays the we would know it was you. You can be so obvious.

by ipsiphi Fri Mar 14, 2003 18:36

which whiskey does the SF leadership share with White House staff?

it is a simple question.

by pat c Fri Mar 14, 2003 19:10

Its a renowned northern spirit.

by ipsiphi Fri Mar 14, 2003 19:42

Dear Mr O´asif / a Chara,
in answer to your queries of late issued accross the globe and causing laughs and all that in the newsrooms of umpteen media organs, we would like to confirm that the Sinn Fein leadership drank brand "X" with Bush St Patrick´s week 2003.
is mise le meas,
XXXX

black bush is alright though.
I'd accept a glass of that.

And how come the skilled SF spindoctor is not taking advantage of the Pioneer pin worn by Sinn Fein leader Martin? I would have thought Justin would have come out with "sure son, we don't drink whiskey with the White House, most of us are on the pledge" line.

by Aidan Sat Mar 15, 2003 16:22

>They were offensive as far as I was concerned. >You removed remarks supposedly by Brian Cahill >OKJ etc, do you have a grudge against me?

Thin skin there pat. The comment was well written and did not contain abuse language. Comments supposely from Brian Cahill or whomever have been removed because they contain offensive language. Swear words and the like.

>Pat C is the name I go by. Are you saying its ok >if I post as Aidan O'Brien from now on?

I didnt copyright it so knock yourself out. If you start posting and pretending to be me and making comments that suggest you are speaking oh behalf of indymedia that different.
pat you dont have exlcusive rights to the name "pat" and the letter "c".

>So what made you send a mail to my personal >email address claiming you were speaking on >behalf of IMC?

because at the last imc meeting i volunteered to answer all the contact form emails we get. Amazingly dave noone is more rational than you. And we re talking about a fascist who called me a "totalitarian oppressor".

>How is it insane to query the veracity of an >email? It was from an address I'd never seen you >use before. The contents of the mail >contradicted the actions of IMC.

No its insane to decide that i am impersonating myself and this is some vast conspiracy to ensure brian cahill has more rights than you. What would have been sane would be to ask, and get confirmation, before putting my email address on the sodding site. It wasnt insane to question just how you went about doing it.

>As I said, as far as I knew the mail was from >someone impersonating you. I would not have >posted it if I thought it was from you.

And you thought to check first nah. See pat this all fits into that wonderful delusion of persecution that you are trying to validate.

>You are the one who is wasting time. I would be >happier if if you didnt email me.

Not a problem

>In that case you dont own the Aidan O'Brien name.
>As I said, I thought it was abusive. Again I >point to the Cahill, OK, etc deletions.

Yes thus is what im saying. Jesus pat why are you kicking up such a fuss you got things your way! the comment was deleted.

Exactly how was the comment abusive! It was well written which in hindsight should have been the first clue that it wasnt from you.

The cahill stuff the only recent cahill impersonation was when someone pretending to be cahill hurled abuse at paul kinsella. Ditto with the king mob impersonator usually screams expletives and threatens people. In my opinion there was no reaon to remove the pat c comment, daithi disagreed.

>No conspiracy theory, you were the one who >acting in a very odd manner. As I said, for all >I knew, it could have been from the person(s) >who was impersonating Ray, Cahill, OK, King Mob >& myself.

Yes yes pat c finds the villan. Brillant deduction holmes. Idiot.

>I feel even worse, if I hadnt got your dumb >email in the first place, then none of this >would have occurred.

No you got a polite email from me, you reacting with impressive (even for you} stupidity. Why do you feel this is relavant to this article.

>Aidan, your Emperor complex has done you dpwn >once again. You are no Alpha Male, you are the >Omega Man.

Yadda Yadda Yadda.

pat i mean this as a friend, seriously, seek help.

by pat c Mon Mar 17, 2003 19:33

">They were offensive as far as I was concerned. >You removed remarks supposedly by Brian Cahill >OKJ etc, do you have a grudge against me?

Thin skin there pat. The comment was well written and did not contain abuse language. Comments supposely from Brian Cahill or whomever have been removed because they contain offensive language. Swear words and the like. "

So have some of those fake pc mails. I'm making a point by asking to have at leasr one removed.

">Pat C is the name I go by. Are you saying its ok >if I post as Aidan O'Brien from now on?

I didnt copyright it so knock yourself out. If you start posting and pretending to be me and making comments that suggest you are speaking oh behalf of indymedia that different.
pat you dont have exlcusive rights to the name "pat" and the letter "c"."

Come on now Aidan, what do you have against me? Is it because you tend to come off worse in our encounters?

">So what made you send a mail to my personal >email address claiming you were speaking on >behalf of IMC?

because at the last imc meeting i volunteered to answer all the contact form emails we get. Amazingly dave noone is more rational than you. And we re talking about a fascist who called me a "totalitarian oppressor"."

How is Noone more rational than me? You said mthe fake post would not be removed, but it was removed. YOU WERE OBVIOUSLY NOT SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF IMC.

">How is it insane to query the veracity of an >email? It was from an address I'd never seen you >use before. The contents of the mail >contradicted the actions of IMC.

No its insane to decide that i am impersonating myself and this is some vast conspiracy to ensure brian cahill has more rights than you. What would have been sane would be to ask, and get confirmation, before putting my email address on the sodding site. It wasnt insane to question just how you went about doing it. "

I didnt suggest YOU were impersonating yourself or anyone else. The person who mailed me might not have been you. AS I HAVE POINTED OUT, THE CONTENT OF YOUR MAIL DID NOT TALLY WITH THE ACTIONS OF IMC. THAT WAS REASON TO DOUBT THE VERACITY OF THE EMAIL.

">As I said, as far as I knew the mail was from >someone impersonating you. I would not have >posted it if I thought it was from you.

And you thought to check first nah. See pat this all fits into that wonderful delusion of persecution that you are trying to validate. "

What delusion of persecution? You for personal reasons did not want to delete a mail. It is obvoius from the later actions of IMC that you were on a solo run.

">You are the one who is wasting time. I would be >happier if if you didnt email me.

Not a problem"

Oh joy! Oh Joy!

">In that case you dont own the Aidan O'Brien name.
>As I said, I thought it was abusive. Again I >point to the Cahill, OK, etc deletions.

Yes thus is what im saying. Jesus pat why are you kicking up such a fuss you got things your way! the comment was deleted."

You are the one who is putting out the rigamarole to try & defend your unethical behaviour.

"Exactly how was the comment abusive! It was well written which in hindsight should have been the first clue that it wasnt from you."

Now Aidan, you are letting your personal bitterness creep in again. It was a very weak attempt at satire as far as I am concerned.

"The cahill stuff the only recent cahill impersonation was when someone pretending to be cahill hurled abuse at paul kinsella. Ditto with the king mob impersonator usually screams expletives and threatens people. In my opinion there was no reaon to remove the pat c comment, daithi disagreed. "

Well I disagrree with you. And I am not the only one, doesnt that make you question your motives?

">No conspiracy theory, you were the one who >acting in a very odd manner. As I said, for all >I knew, it could have been from the person(s) >who was impersonating Ray, Cahill, OK, King Mob >& myself.

Yes yes pat c finds the villan. Brillant deduction holmes. Idiot. "

Now Aidan, you can do better than that. As I pointed out the MAILS CONTENT WAS AT ODDS WITH THE ACTIONS OF IMC, IT WAS REASONABLE TO DOUBT IT.

">I feel even worse, if I hadnt got your dumb >email in the first place, then none of this >would have occurred.

No you got a polite email from me, you reacting with impressive (even for you} stupidity. Why do you feel this is relavant to this article."

I posted the mail here, people can make their own mind up as to content & relevance.

">Aidan, your Emperor complex has done you dpwn >once again. You are no Alpha Male, you are the >Omega Man.

Yadda Yadda Yadda. "

Are you losing command of the Queens English? Calm down now. A few deep breaths.

"pat i mean this as a friend, seriously, seek help."

Aidan, you are the one who needs help. You keep starting up these quarrels with me. You really need to break with this unhealthy obsession of yours.

btw

maybe Joe 90 would be more apprropriate for you. More your type of agent.

by Aidan Mon Mar 17, 2003 23:11

"Come on now Aidan, what do you have against me? Is it because you tend to come off worse in our encounters?"

I'll add delusionals of grandeur to your list of psychosis shall I?

You came off so rational when you accused indymedia of being pro zionist. Or when you threatened to turn up an imc meeting with "twin machetes". Pat you've come out of things looking like a nut and crank. Pat what can you take from my comments to infere that I have anything againist you?

Please point me to a url of one of the fake "pat" "c"'s that contains abusive language.

"How is Noone more rational than me? You said mthe fake post would not be removed, but it was removed. YOU WERE OBVIOUSLY NOT SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF IMC."

Pat bless, can you not grasp that there is NO ONE VOICE OF INDYMEDIA. We are a CO-LLECT-IVE, I said I saw no reason for the post to be removed, but Daithi disagreed.

"I didnt suggest YOU were impersonating yourself or anyone else. The person who mailed me might not have been you. AS I HAVE POINTED OUT, THE CONTENT OF YOUR MAIL DID NOT TALLY WITH THE ACTIONS OF IMC. THAT WAS REASON TO DOUBT THE VERACITY OF THE EMAIL."

So you checked back to indymedia.ie? Nah you went off and posted my e-mail address on the site, and had a hissy fit when I removed it. And you did suggest to me, over e-mail that I wasn't aidan, repeatadly.

">In that case you dont own the Aidan O'Brien name.
>As I said, I thought it was abusive. Again I >point to the Cahill, OK, etc deletions.

Yes thus is what im saying. Jesus pat why are you kicking up such a fuss you got things your way! the comment was deleted."

"You are the one who is putting out the rigamarole to try & defend your unethical behaviour. "

No okay you've accused me of going off on a solo run and being unethical? Whats next being a "rogue cop" a "lose cannon", a "danger to the force"??? Jesus Pat, would you care to ram this into your skull. You mailed a request to indymedia to have a post removed. I ,acting in capacity of editor , mailed you to tell you I saw nothing wrong with the post. Daithi disagreed and deleted it. I didn't bother challenging Daithi because I didn't see it as a huge deal.

You're the one who has created this bizarre tangled web of deceit and corruption all in an attempt to force people to believe theres some non existant bias againist you.

Cop on and grow up.

"The cahill stuff the only recent cahill impersonation was when someone pretending to be cahill hurled abuse at paul kinsella. Ditto with the king mob impersonator usually screams expletives and threatens people. In my opinion there was no reaon to remove the pat c comment, daithi disagreed. "

"Well I disagrree with you. And I am not the only one, doesnt that make you question your motives?"

God yes I can see clearly now, Daithi and yourself have shown me the light. Pat really you flatter yourself. I think the imposter stuff is a unavoidable problem on the site, and should be dealt with by changing the code to include e-mail verification. Thats the only way to fix it not deleting any post that you have a problem with.

Also consider this, the imposter could have actually been the real pat c, you (the actual imposter) mailed indymedia demanding it to be removed, and you've been carrying on this argument ever since. You are not Pat C and can't prove to me here that you are Pat C. Or via e-mail because an address can be faked. Theres no way you can prove you are Pat C and all these posts came from you.

I'm now thinking like you. The only flaw in my theory is only you could be this pig headed and ignorant, so you must be Pat. Hell I may not be even aidan. It's the internet Pat, demanding that any post that carrys your trade mark Pat and C that isn't by you be removed, is not fair.

This is my argument and stance it's nothing to do with this bizarre irrational hatred you have of me, and you think I share for you.

Yes yes pat c finds the villan. Brillant deduction holmes. Idiot. "

"Now Aidan, you can do better than that. As I pointed out the MAILS CONTENT WAS AT ODDS WITH THE ACTIONS OF IMC, IT WAS REASONABLE TO DOUBT IT"

Fine doubt away, but responding by repeatadly accusing me of not being me, and posting my mail address on the site, demanding an explaination on a thread thats irrelevant, and trying to make this into something it's not, isn't reasonable, it's moronic.

"Aidan, you are the one who needs help. You keep starting up these quarrels with me. You really need to break with this unhealthy obsession of yours."

Pat you posted my mail on the site and started screaming blue murder over nothing. I'm genuinely serious; you have delusions of persecution. I didn't respond all day because I was working and frankly when I first saw your post I just stared at it incredoulously that you were even saying this.

"maybe Joe 90 would be more apprropriate for you. More your type of agent."

Took you all holiday weekend to think up that witty addendum?

Aidan

by Des Tue Mar 18, 2003 00:50

At this depressing time when George and Tony are going to war, your exchange(s) are really entertaining. BTW Pat, congrats on becoming a subject of poetry.

by pat c Tue Mar 18, 2003 15:41

Pat Corcoran, I hate you with a passion. As a result I am going to keep putting up spurious postings in your name to such an extent that you have to stop using your name!! ha ha ha ha ha

by pat c Wed Mar 19, 2003 18:11

"I'll add delusionals of grandeur to your list of psychosis shall I? "

You are the one who acts like hes Rupert Murdoch

"You came off so rational when you accused indymedia of being pro zionist."

You are so low, you have to drag up something from almost a year ago. The facr that its still on your mind says a lot about your obsession.

"Or when you threatened to turn up an imc meeting with "twin machetes"."

As I've said to you on many occasions, did you take Ray seriously when he proposed Satanic Human Sacrifice?

"Pat you've come out of things looking like a nut and crank. Pat what can you take from my comments to infere that I have anything againist you?"

The fact that you keep starting up quarrels with me. You even tried to drag me into one with Avi recently.

"Please point me to a url of one of the fake "pat" "c"'s that contains abusive language."

I'm not going to go searching for you. But it does seem that you are pushing your own opinion. Ray is against false mails to the extent that he is mooting the idea of special log in measures. The fact that the fake mail was deleted in spite of you shows that you dont speak for IMC.

"Pat bless, can you not grasp that there is NO ONE VOICE OF INDYMEDIA. We are a CO-LLECT-IVE, I said I saw no reason for the post to be removed, but Daithi disagreed."

So why didnt you take it to THE COLLECTIVE INSTEAD OF MAKING A PERSONAL DECISION TO LEAVE THE MAIL UP?

"So you checked back to indymedia.ie? Nah you went off and posted my e-mail address on the site, and had a hissy fit when I removed it. And you did suggest to me, over e-mail that I wasn't aidan, repeatadly. "

Why shoul I check back with IMC when the removal of the false mail suggested you were not speaking for IMC & might not be Aidan?

How was I to know that you had removed the mail which I then posted? All you had to do was remove your email add & make a comment.

"">In that case you dont own the Aidan O'Brien name.
>As I said, I thought it was abusive. Again I >point to the Cahill, OK, etc deletions.

Yes thus is what im saying. Jesus pat why are you kicking up such a fuss you got things your way! the comment was deleted."

You are the one who is dragging this out. You said your previous posting would be the last on this thread.

"No okay you've accused me of going off on a solo run and being unethical? Whats next being a "rogue cop" a "lose cannon", a "danger to the force"??? Jesus Pat, would you care to ram this into your skull. You mailed a request to indymedia to have a post removed. I ,acting in capacity of editor , mailed you to tell you I saw nothing wrong with the post. Daithi disagreed and deleted it. I didn't bother challenging Daithi because I didn't see it as a huge deal. "

I have pointed out already how you acted in an underhanded manner. See above.

"You're the one who has created this bizarre tangled web of deceit and corruption all in an attempt to force people to believe theres some non existant bias againist you. "

Aidan if you had just deleted the mail as requested, then this would not have occurred.

"Cop on and grow up. "

You are the one who is being immature. I wonder if IMC will susppend some of your privileges?

"God yes I can see clearly now, Daithi and yourself have shown me the light. Pat really you flatter yourself. "

Now Aidan, calm down. Look in the mirror. You are not Rupert Murdoch.

"I think the imposter stuff is a unavoidable problem on the site, and should be dealt with by changing the code to include e-mail verification. "

Maybe it should be implemented.

"Thats the only way to fix it not deleting any post that you have a problem with."

There have been many I have not even mentioned. I only asked to be treated in the same way that others were.

"Also consider this, the imposter could have actually been the real pat c, you (the actual imposter) mailed indymedia demanding it to be removed, and you've been carrying on this argument ever since. You are not Pat C and can't prove to me here that you are Pat C. Or via e-mail because an address can be faked. Theres no way you can prove you are Pat C and all these posts came from you. "

Aidan, what are you on?

"I'm now thinking like you. The only flaw in my theory is only you could be this pig headed and ignorant, so you must be Pat. Hell I may not be even aidan. It's the internet Pat, demanding that any post that carrys your trade mark Pat and C that isn't by you be removed, is not fair. "

Aidan, people can judge from our emails above as to which of us is most pig headed. I havent demanded that all fake pat c mails be deleted. But if Ray can object to others using that name & even use his editor privileges to intervene then i also have a right to object.

This is my argument and stance it's nothing to do with this bizarre irrational hatred you have of me, and you think I share for you.

"Fine doubt away, but responding by repeatadly accusing me of not being me, and posting my mail address on the site, demanding an explaination on a thread thats irrelevant, and trying to make this into something it's not, isn't reasonable, it's moronic. "

Now Aidan, what point are you proving by being abusive?

""maybe Joe 90 would be more apprropriate for you. More your type of agent."

Took you all holiday weekend to think up that witty addendum?"

I'm glad it struck home.

Anyway , why must you always play Whistler to my Wilde? Why not become my Boswell?