Smash Peace Fascism

by Andrew Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:13

First off the poster above obviously knows very little about those involved in the anti-war movement. Many of us were supporting campaigns against Saddam back when the US and Britian were busy arming him. Likewise I've helped opposition activists in Egypt, Turkey, Kakjaistan(sp?) and the Lebonen to name four near neighboors. In terms of Israel/Palestine we have shown solidarity with workers from a Jewish background as well as those from a christian or muslim one. So do a bit of research - you may end up shocked but what you find (eg Who gave Saddam biologcal and chemical weapons back in the 80's).

And now for some real news I paste in a report on the demonstration in Madrid below as this one seems not to have got the coverage it deserves

Madrid: Police say 660,000 (a very high figure coming from
the police), organisers say 2,000,000. Impossible to calculate
as the streets included in the march were insufficient to hold
all the people, so some were leaving while others arriving, and
side streets were full of people trying to enter "official"
streets. Clearly well over a million, but impossible to make
calculations base on square metres occupied in designated
marching areas. The most "squashed" march I haver ever
participated in. One of the actions was to set off sirens
warning an attack and demonstraters were to fall on the
ground as if dead. Impossible to do so for lack of space.
Certainly the biggest or one of the biggest demos in Madrid. I
saw both CNT and CGT blocks, maybe 5,000 between the two,
but lots of red-and-black flags mixed in throughout the march
(it was impossible to find blocks unless you arrived well early,
and CNT and CGT do not have "obligatory" formations,
people tend to move around). Strik
ing the complete lack of police (only helicopters visible), and
a very large amount of home-made signs (normally in Madrid
you mostly see signs and banners made by organisations, not
individuals). Several ambulance and fire engines temporarily
broke up the march, very unusual, but perhaps due to logical
reasons.

Barcelona: Government says 350,000, Municipal Police say
1,300,000. El Mundo newspaper (normally close to
government) says 1,300,000. That is one out of every five
people in Catalunya. Reported as biggest demonstration ever
in Catalunya.

Some demonstrations (for example, Ceuta) were not allowed.
And some demonstrations counted with an overwhelming
majority of the local inhabitants, like Ibiza with around
66%-75% participation.

It should be noted that while all the marchers were against
the war, a lot of the publicity for the demonstrations has been
generated by political parties (like the Socialist PSOE
currently in the opposition which, when in power, brought
about the Spanish participation in the first Golf War) who are
using this as an attack against the PP government, in light of
forthcoming municipal elections.

Chris

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by AL Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:20

...being a bit racist don't you think.
freedom is not american imperialsm, nor is it iraqi dictatorship, nor is it isreali terrorism, nor is it palestinian atrocities against innocent civilians. freedom does not or cannot exist (only in death). we are always responsible to someone, tied to some relationship.
but it is in these relationships that we can offer some reprieve from fascists like yourself. If I were as full of hate as you I would probably tell you to go swallow a cyanide pill. But I'm not. You have the freedom to express your opinion without being shot, which is more than many iraqis can say, You can travel to work, to schools, to hospitals, which keeps you in money, with education and health, which is more than most palestinians can say. You do not have to worry about you and your family living in poverty because of lack of state support or job security, or deal with low educational levels and very bad health services as over 50% of americans do, and nor do you have to walk the streets in fear of attack, a fear so enshrined as much by palestinian attacks as by powerful propaganda mechanisms, as so many isreals do.
so next time you feel like speaking your mind maybe you might consider using it before you let your fingers go to work, fingers which have not been cut off for speaking as you did as so many across the globe have had to deal with.

by Simpson Eh? Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:02

Al - I can only speak for myself here - but I don't see how currently starving Iraqis via sanctions nor bombing civillians has achieved, nor will achieve any of the freedoms you so cherish.

Bombing, whether carried out in the name of Irish Republicans, Muslim Fundamentalism, Bush & Blair, or Zionism, can never bring anything other than terror and suffering.

War is what I marched against - so please don't put words in my mouth. Many of those who marched want to point out the hypocrisy of countries who at one time be-friended, armed and favoured Hussein, the Mujaheddeen and other factions across the globe thinking they have pulled the wool over anyone's eyes by pursuing their current policies. My marching against a War for Oil does not mean that I support the current Iraqi regime, no more than I support the regimes of Burma, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Zimbabwe ....

by Pops Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:25

Simpson, I might be wrong but I think AL is referring to Americus & is basically saying the same as yourself, more or less.

by jeff Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:34

A marching song for a prick like yourself might go;

I believe in Democracy
So that is why Palestinians should be kicked off their land,
Because it is needed for settlements,
For Russians and Americans,
Because they are more democratic than Arabs,
I believe in Peace,
That is why it is absolutly necessary to condemn suicide bombings
And conveniently ignore five year old kids being shot by the IDF,
Or old peole being crushed in the houses,
Remember, Israel is the only democracy in the middle east,
I believe in respect for all our allies,
Especially dictators in Saudi Arabia,
And South America,
Or telling Russia it is ok to kill Chechens, they are
terrorists,
But actually,
we only tell them that,
it is realpolitik,
Because they support free trade,
Which is good,
Oil is good,
Even though we could have
used
solar power years ago,
alongside hemp,
And I believe in the Bible,it is
good,not liker the
Koran,
That is bad,
It does not believe in democracy,
That is why
Mohammed don't surf,
baby,
yearrghhh....

by silo Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:37

Familiar trolling giving the viewpoint of pro-israeli/pro-u.s. elites, ignore.

by Simpson Eh? Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:46

I meant to write 'Americus' rather than 'Al'......

by Garret Shanley Tue Feb 18, 2003 15:30 gar at dublin dot com

It's a bit long, reductionist, boring, untrue, unfunny, sad and demented, but besides that it's a fine little ditty.

by Avi Harari Wed Feb 19, 2003 06:48

The reason the anti-war movement as presently constituted is anti-Semitic is because it steadfastly refuses to listen to the other side of the argument, particularly on the issue of the Israel-Palestine problem. Reasoned criticism of Israel is one thing but demonisation and ranting are quite another. You have to remember that Jews have a lot of experience of being persecuted, as down the years we have been accused of anything and everything. To us, it seems that the anti-war movement has allowed itself to be put in the pocket of fascist Jew-haters.

by Noel Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:44

Criticising the actions of a government is not, anc cannot be equated to, racism against the people who live under that same government.

People say the anti war protesters are anti jewish. How? All previous examples of anti-jewishness in European history are attacks against the jews as a people on racist grounds. Thus you have the image of the "jewish money lender", the "alien and foreign" jew, the jew seen as exploiter of the poor and so on and so on. All these attacks were against jews as a people.

There is nothing like that in the Anti-War movement. It is anti-racist to it's core. It opposes the actions of the Israeli Government and army. That's all.

If opposing the actions of the Israeli Government makes me opposed to jews, then seeing as I oppose the Irish government, does that make me anti-Irish? Is it a requirement to show unswerving loyalty big-brother style to a government before you can claim not to be opposed to the people who live under that government?

by Joe Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:49

Avi, perhaps the anti-war movement sees the hypocrisy of the US/K who now claim to be going in to "liberate" the people of Iraq (by installing their own generals in power), on the basis of a couple of of UN resolutions which have not been, technically, fully complied with whilst at the same time the US supports Israel to the tune of at least $3 billion per year whilst they are in clear and total violation of 10's of UN security council resolutions.
Israel is in occupation of a foreign land, bulldozes peoples homes, has people under curfew sometimes 24 hours a day, etc. (read the article by Edward Said oon this newswire for a better list of transgressions).
Israel has many undeclared nuclear weapons (of mass destruction).
Bottom line, by the arguements the warmongers are making, if we were to apply them equally, then if Baghdad is to be bombed, so should Tel Aviv.