100,000 march in Dublin - what do we do next?

by 3 words Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:08

three words: Non-Violent Direct Action

by pacifist Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:31

...anyone who attacks a plane with a hammer or an axe is committing an act of violence and is no better than Bush or his allies.

The way forward is by peaceful means ONLY. No violence, or anti-war / pro-peace campaigners will look like fools.

by 3 words Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:37

'anyone who attacks a plane with a hammer or an axe is committing an act of violence'

don't be absurd. machines do not have feelings, they do not think, they do not make moral choices and they do not bleed or die.

It is a good question if it is the right strategy to use, but what Kelly and the Catholic Worker 5 did was not violence.

Obscuring the language like that is orwellian, to an extreme.

by Worried Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:37

It is great that so many people took the time to express their opposition to the proposed escalation of the killing of Iraqi people.

But I worry.

I worry that a large number of people will feel that they have "done their bit". They've done a hell of a lot more than the other people that didn't even bother to turn out for the march. They've expressed their opinion, the leaders should listen and do what the people want, shouldn't they?

I worry that if/when the assault on Iraq continues and the corrupt fools in government do nothing, then a lot of people will feel betrayed and will never vote for Bertie or other representatives again. Instead they'll vote for some other representative, someone "anti-war" from Fianna Fail, or Labour, or the Greens. Then when the next crisis comes they'll be betrayed again.

And again.

On the other hand, maybe most of those people were so pissed off with the government that they realise that they have to show the way and that appealing to or reasoning with or threatening any government is a waste of time and that they, the people that care and that are moral, will have to shut down Shannon to US troops.

That can be done.

by Real Pacifist Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:43

and anyone that argues that is an obvious anti-peace shit-stirrer.

How can killing babies be the same as breaking a machine?

I support any peaceful actions and they're all helpful. They can include, but are not limited to:

1. Destroying military machines.
2. Economic boycotts (will you be going to Shannon for your holyers if they keep on violating our neutrality for a couple of million a year?)
3. Marches.
4. Die-ins and other blockades
5. Airport invasions
6. Work stoppages
7. Targetted voting campaigns (if your TD doesn't make a clear demand for Shannon to stop illegal USAF stopovers then make sure he's out the next time around).
8. Pickets on government buildings
9. Turning up to your TDs clinics to disrupt business as usual

Let's do it.

by Mags Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:52

I'm a bit concerned that if/when they go ahead with the War all those tens of thousands of people won't see how anything else can be done - main thing is to encourage people to stay active. In all reality there is never going to be tens of thousands at Shannon, but protests there must continue of course.

In terms of something for everyone to do immediately people could contact all their TDs and councillors, esp. the FF/PD ones and say they will never ever vote for them again unless the re-fuelling stops. (Doesn't matter if you never have voted for them!)

I know this might not be the most exciting task - but if 20-30 people contacted each TD, and kept getting back to them for updates, they would have to pass the news on to their parties. Go to their clinics, etc. persecute them. It is easy enough to
upset backbenchers. Get stuff into local papers, etc. esp. letters outlining the views of the TDs you have spoken to and expose the ones who have ignored you.

Remember - they claim they are our reps, elected by us to do what we want. WELL MAKE THEM DO IT THEN!

by Non-Voter Mon Feb 17, 2003 18:55

It was great to see so many people turnout in Dublin. A good many of them still have
a certain amount of faith that their 'representatives' will now do the right thing.
Unfortunately for them and they will indeed feel betrayed is that on important issues
like this, they are not likely to listen and to do the 'right' thing. It is in a serious
situation such as we have, that the facade of 'parlimentary democracy' is shown to be
hollow. We need direct democracy. This is what was proposed during the French Revolution
except humanity somehow ended up still working for the benefit of elites.

If you think about it, how can voting once every 4 years for either party A, B, C or D
covering a vast range of issues be reduced to such a simplistic choice. It is just plain
ludricous and even more so to call it democracy. And the answer is because it isn't
democracy. Thats why our 'leaders' and other 'leaders' will be ignoring popular opinion.
All important decisions are generally related to economic ones and these are controlled
by the big business elites through their front organisations, institutes and numerous
think tanks and lobbies.

This is why Direct Action is important -to show we can do things ourselves and break out
of our passivity. It's time to run society ourselves for the benefit of everyone and not
for the benefit of the few.

Still though, I think Saturday's march was a great turnout and had a very important role
in awaking the masses to the great con.

by Mags Mon Feb 17, 2003 19:01

Just thinking...

Every country has a US Embassy - they put themselves around. Should be more of a focus for protests. How about a peace camp/ongoing picket there then? Was kept up pretty well for a fortnight at the Israeli embassy last year and people feel far more strongly on this.

Or maybe Embassy as a focus of a 'Family Protest Day' - would a good theme, I was impressed by all the families with kids in Dublin on Saturday. Cover all the embassy railings with ribbons and messages and stuff.

by Mags Mon Feb 17, 2003 19:08

Of course it's all a con - but the point to make to people is that these reps SAY they are elected by us to represent US. We know they are not.

They are elected to represent their PARTIES. Which is what they do for 4 years and 11 months - Gap for Election - Back to the Dail for the sheepism for another 4 years, 11 months.

100,000 people had 100,000 different reasons to be there on Saturday. I don't know if there are 100,000 different forms of protest, but everyone can do something on an ongoing basis.

It is clear that there is a push to prevent this - all the FF clones on the Joe Duffy show today whinging on about 'extremist fringes' was one example of it. Trying to scare people away from expressing their views.

by pacificst Mon Feb 17, 2003 21:18

don't be absurd. machines do not have feelings, they do not think, they do not make moral choices and they do not bleed or die.

So going by that logic, if a US bomber launches a missile on a factory it's not an act of violence?

You might agree with that statement, but I don't - launching a missile (a machine) on an factory (a group of machines) is an act of violence.

If you want to disable an aircraft, then let the air out of its tires or disable it using the tools that are helped maintain it (ie, try to take it apart with a wrench etc). Tools are not weapons.

Using a weapon to achieve political aims is something I disgree with entirely, and in fact is something that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and company would try.

Eoin Dubsky had the right idea with paint - paint is not a weapon and therefore putting it on an aircraft is not an act of violence and can be used to transmit messages of peace, which is something an axe can never do.

And don't dare label me anti-peace - I am strongly pro-peace.

Moving on to other comments - the problem with parliamentary democracy is not parliamentary democracy in itself - the problem is the naive fools who vote for the morally corrupt people who stand for election. Fianna Fáil didn't get into power themselves - a majority of the common people elected them. There's your problem - let's reach out and educate the people to vote for people of moral integrity. What other real alternative is there in running a country?

by Real Pacifist Mon Feb 17, 2003 21:50

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acts of violence
by pacificst Mon, Feb 17 2003, 8:18pm

don't be absurd. machines do not have feelings, they do not think, they do not make moral choices Q and they do not bleed or die.

So going by that logic, if a US bomber launches a missile on a factory it's not an act of violence?

You might agree with that statement, but I don't - launching a missile (a machine) on an factory (a group of machines) is an act of violence.
-----------------------------------------

What on earth are you trying to argue? What are you raving about machines having feelings? Do you think that you're responding to something someone said? If you were responding to my post then I did not say anything about machines thinking. You would appear to be having a conversation with yourself. Not very useful.

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If you want to disable an aircraft, then let the air out of its tires or disable it using the tools that are helped maintain it (ie, try to take it apart with a wrench etc). Tools are not weapons.
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Tools can be weapons in certain context. A weapon is a tool used for the purpose of aggression. The point of hatcheting up the front of an airplane which is going to take part in the killing of people is that it's quick, easy, effective and non-skilled. Disassembling it patiently would require a huge amount of time and training. Further, in order to stop the machine getting back into commission quickly one would have to hide or destroy the pieces. Not very practical.

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Using a weapon to achieve political aims is something I disgree with entirely, and in fact is something that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and company would try.
-----------------------------------------

Well, that's great that you disagree with it, but are you actually going to stop the weapon (in this case an airplane used in logistic support of the murder of Iraqis) being used? If not then your opinion, while correct, isn't very useful to the murdered Iraqis.

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Eoin Dubsky had the right idea with paint - paint is not a weapon and therefore putting it on an aircraft is not an act of violence and can be used to transmit messages of peace, which is something an axe can never do.
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Eoin's act while useful symbolically and in terms of forcing the government's filthy complicity in murder into the media was not enough. He himself has said that he regrets not smashing up the plane which he has been told has gone on its way to murder Iraqis.

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And don't dare label me anti-peace - I am strongly pro-peace.
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Sorry about that, it's hard for me to see the difference between people that are pro-war and attack non-violent peace campaigners for removing parts of the military machine and whited sepulchres like yourself that say they're pro-peace and attack non-violent peace campaigners for removing parts of the military machine.

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Moving on to other comments - the problem with parliamentary democracy is not parliamentary democracy in itself -
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Prove it. So far you've been wrong on everything else. Let's see a little evidence from you to back up your witterings. Here's my counter evidence: look at politicians promises for entire history of parliamentary democracy and see how many are kept and what redress the people have. Look at instances where they do keep promises (such as the CIA-assassinated Allende of Chile, or the US-coup-plotter-threatened Chavez of Venezuela) and see how many of them survive. Taking a historical, evidence based approach it makes more sense to say that parliamentary democracy is a sham and a fraud.

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the problem is the naive fools who vote for the morally corrupt people who stand for election.
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Ah, so you're a non-naive, non-fool, non-active peace campaigner. Must be lonely up in that tower.

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Fianna Fáil didn't get into power themselves - a majority of the common people elected them.
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Did they? I can't remember what proportion of the eligible electorate voted for Fianna Fail in the last elections. Refresh my memory. However, you are nearly correct that the problem is that we all believe in voting and do it again and again despite evidence that the Greens in Germany, Labour in the UK, the Socialist Liste in France have all betrayed their "constituencies". Politicians can't make decisions for people, they can only act as duplicitous intermediaries between the elites and the people and as long as we, the people, keep on supporting a system that removes our right to govern we will be betrayed again and again.

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There's your problem - let's reach out and educate the people to vote for people of moral integrity.
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No, let's educate ourselves to display moral integrity and not take part in a system that removes our decision making power and supinely reposes our trust in somebody else.

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What other real alternative is there in running a country?
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Anarchism: government of ourselves. Collective ownership of the means of production, immediate local government, federated councils with mandated recallable delegates.

Everything else has been tried and shown to be a failure.

by anarcho Mon Feb 17, 2003 21:51 anarcho at geocities dot com

"So going by that logic, if a US bomber
launches a missile on a factory it's not
an act of violence?"

Surely if you destroy the US bomber then
you are stopping violence. It will not be
able to launch a missle at a factory. Destroying
instruments of violence is not violent

And, incidentally, the reason why destroying
a factory is "violent" is because people are
usually in them and/or are dependent on them
for the goods they produce.

You simply cannot equate Clinton's destruction
of that Sudan factory (for example) with people
destroying weapons. In the former, people were
hurt/killed directly and indirectly. In the
latter, people were not harmed directly or
indirectly -- the reverse, as the weapons would
not be used to kill people.

by Intransigent Mon Feb 17, 2003 22:01

US Bomber = Weapon of Mass Destruction
US Bomber = Machine with Objective to Kill and Maime
Hammer = Instrument used to Disarm this Weapon of Mass Destruction
Factory = Workplace used to produce products, sometimes for the benefit of society (clothes so we are not cold)
Factory = Workplace where wageslaves are exploited and their surplus labour extracted by the capitalist
US Bomber = Bad
Hammer = Sometimes bad but can be used for good
Factory = Hell

Violence is not equal to smashing up US Bomber
Violence = Causing harm to another human being
OR Violence = Causing harm to private property (If you are a capitalist bastard or make the laws of a country)

I hope it's all a little simpler now!?!

by Don - none Mon Feb 17, 2003 22:25

I just read the comments above. All the guff about how to organise society and anarchism is irrelvant to the point at hand which is how to stop Shannon being used by the government.

I'm not an anarchist. I vote Labour and sometimes Sinn Fein. But I am against this war and it looks like direct action at Shannon is the way to go. Just because we shut down the airport doesn't mean that we're going to be in anarchist utopia afterwards and I don't think I believe in that anyway.

Forget all the theoretical crap above. Shutting Shannon down is going to require people going down and doing their thing. Afterwards we can go back to the political slugfest as usual.

by dublin 4 liberal Mon Feb 17, 2003 22:38

Put pressure on Des Geraghty to shut down shannon, he is the leader of the biggest trade union there. Maybe daughter Nora of GR fame could use her famous powers of persuasion on him.

by El gonzo - NTM Tue Feb 18, 2003 03:44

Here, i don't think the discusion of what amounts to violence is being taken to its conclusions.

Violence under circumstances must be reasonable there can be no other way of looking at it. If an iraqi uses a missile to destroy a plane that is on a bombing raid it must be deemed reasonable as they are protecting themselves. The problem for us of course is that by this logic we can go further and further back. Is it justified for an irish person to blow up a plane with crew on board that is on its way to iraq? If so is it not justified to have all sorts of preemptive actions that actively attempt to stop war or destroy those in a position to start war. 9/11.

I beleive that moral judgement cannot be predictive we must only act on intentions without recourse to effect. Therefore attacking planes should not go ahead as nobody can predict what the future actions of the plane could be. We must not find ourselves in a situation where we believe it reasonable to act in this manor. We must be absolute in our morals as the results deviance can never be predicted. Be strong and live absolutaly by the moral system. Do not lie, do not cheat, do not commit any acts of arbitrary violence.

by The Philosopher Stoner - Hogwarts Academy for Poodles Tue Feb 18, 2003 05:48

I beleive that moral judgement cannot be predictive we must only act on intentions without recourse to effect. Therefore attacking planes should not go ahead as nobody can predict what the future actions of the plane could be.
----snip------snip------snip-----snip----snip----snip

I believe that a plane that is part of a military is probably going to be used for military purposes, especially when the people controlling that military announce this intention well in advance.

I believe that the USAF planes in Shannon are Baby-Killing-Planes.

So you should attack them.

Besides all that the Irish Constitution states that the Bunracht na hEireann is a neutral nation. Any planes present need to be disabled with hatchets.

Wage Peace, not War (and certainly not Stupidity).

by Aideen Matthews Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:37

I personally find this argument about violence ridiculous.

In my book harming, another living being is violence. Harming an inanimate object is not, plain and simple.

Harming an inanimate object that is someones personal belongings or has sentimental value like their home or their family photo album is wrong and achieves nothing worthwhile, so even though I dislike Bertie and Bush, I'd never condone harming them or their personal belongings.

Throwing a brick through a MacDonalds or Nike window is stupid, as it achieves nothing except venting personal anger and may endanger the jobs of the poor buggers who work their.

Smashing a plane to smithereens whose primary purpose is to be part of a war machine and kill even one innocent person, is not only right but should be a moral imperative for any sane and rational person. I think anyone who argues otherwise is morally bankrupt.

by Andrew Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:59

The report refers to certain decisions being made with regard to the action at Shannon. In fact I misunderstood the process and have added the following text to that section.

NOTE: In fact although the majority at the meeting voted for something similar to the two points above this was intended as an indicative vote and did not mean a decision had been reached - this proposal is to go back to each local group first. The misreport above is entirely my fault

by Big Bus driver - TWR Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:34 tw_resistance at yahoo dot co dot uk

Protests are good
Boycotts are ok
But they never stopped any wars
The 2 scottish train drivers who refused to drive trains loaded with ammunitions to the army base in Scotland are true resistants to the war (in the second world war sense).
They can go nowhere if we refuse to work for them. In most cases they can't even get scabs cos they don't have the time to train them.
Transport Workers Resistance (TWR) is a worldwide network of transport workers who reports the abuses of the bosses and the States and also have practical tacticts like sabotage and strike.
All industries should resist as well.
TWR was inspired by MWR (www.mwr.org.uk)

by ipsiphi Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:33 bcn

o estem sols o som nosaltres-
MANIFEST@ passada mitjanit 17 de Febrer del 2003
a
léspai alliberat del carrer Avinyó número 15.

S´ha déscriure un mainfest: paper en blanc i bolígraf, abandonats peró no prou. Manca hom que escrigui on se li diu. Hem anat a buscar aigua, ningú ha secrit res. travessem la primera planta fins al finestrals. Escrit amb pintura blanca sobre un vidre brut és pot llegir "una mirada no cuesta nada"; encuriousits seguim llegint "mirada gratis" (tot és llegiex sempre des de l´interior). Encara que la merda del vidre no deixi veure res, davant mateix, un col·legi de monges. Per elles, amb l´ordre de les lletres invertit:
"OERC ON SOID AMUH RES LA ON EUF SEVER (AV SON ISA Y)", que segons la perspectiva de les novicies vol dir Dios no creo el ser humano fue al revés (y asi nos va).

Al carrer Avinyó número quinze es troba l´´aniga seu d´hisenda de l´Ajuntament de Barcelona. Fa cinc anys és va okupar aquest edifici, s´hi va realitzar el primer acte del FÒRUM i es va desallotjar. D´aqui cinc anys encara será l antic edifici d´hisenda, és tornarà a okupar, s´hi realitzarà el primer acte del FÒRUM i es desallotjarà.

Si pugem per l´escala princiap, davant es lavabos, embossats per falta d´aigua, llegim escrit amb esprai blau: "POR QUE NO ME SOPORTO?". Entrem a la primera planta. A la dreta lánnex les plnates superioirs del qual són visibles i alhora inexpugnables, les runes, "els detrasos" per no va entrar la Guardia Urbana a les set del matí de dilluns.

LA PRIMERA PLANTA girant al voltant del patí de llum que vertebra les cinc plantes del nostre edificfi podem llegir següent: ESPAI DE PAU I TREVA amb lletres grosses i deversops colors. TAZ F.U.K. -usa- LES TENEMOS EL ALIENTO EN LOS COGOTES. I les miserioses GORA JO TA KE SOMA on sembla que algú feu proclames terroristes que algú va esborrar amb pintura blanca LAS IDEAS SON ARMAS TIRAD!- SOLO ENTRE TODOS LOS VERDUGOS TAMBIËN MUEREN - HACIENDA SOMOS TODOS. (firmada amb pic4on) les darreres abans del finestral son dues: ODAPUKO i haciendo somos todos, un del dret i l´altre a l´inrevés. Entre i en finestres: Querida gente no se acostumbre. @N@RKI@
George, borraco estabas más guapo OKUP@CIÓ (y así son av) séver la euf onamun res la oerc on soid. una mirada no cuesta nada....mirada gratis.

A la paret que corre paral·lel al carrer Ferran el primer de tots, Karate Punk, escriu:
"entre tots/es no farem res-Karate PunkL.R." en blau i d´altra mà "Convergència i divergència del seny okupa" seguit eh gran i roig amb un cercle blau sobre el signe d´admiració AKI VIUREM TOTS!.
I la traca final ais perles. ESTOY EN BUSCA Y CAPTURA POR NO QUERER TRABAJAR-MONOCÉFALO SOMOS TODOS- OSUKNOC NAT ODOT SE - monocefo somos todos industria, ne arte ne parte, ne carne ne pesce, ne zuppa ne pagnato. Chino ha testa abbia gambe...Indeslece. De tornada cap a la porta, W.C. en gran lletres negres i una fletxa indicadora.
ABAJO EL TRABAJO! ARRIBA LA TERRAZA! si hi pugem podrem contemplar sobre la teulada de l´annex un bust de pedra mirant a ponent. Todo és muy confuso. Obrim la porta amagats rera una pancarta. Akí viurem tots! (puntuat amb un cercle blau) Cal beneir totes les portes amn una pela de tarjona mentre de l´acordió s´alcen canÇos de forÇa i tndresa ¿Por que no me soporto? i anglés así ¿why do you not suffer me? KARATE PUNK no hi na casa sense un polvo inaugaral. esta tan confuso todo sólo entre todos todos monocefo AVINYÓ 15 LA PRIMERA PLANTA AL FINAL DEL DESRT:

en una cantinada de la claraboia central s´alÇa una escala de cargol embolicado amb uns metres de tanca la porta- La puerta debe estar siempre abierta, tendrian que hacer fiesta a todas horas no sporto las assembleas se habla sin hacer nada. Monocefo somos todos. cal tornar la paellera i si vé la policia? Los verdugos también mueren. JO TA KE SOMA. Tau confuso esta todo. S´espera a la policia i la policia ve puntual.tan donfus está todo. S´ha de tornar la paellera. indostria ne arte ne parte, indostria ne arte ne parte ne carne ne pesce entre tots farem res i el Policia diu,
LA UNION HACE LA FUERZA: la forÇa de dos millions (2.000.000) que quasi no erem nosaltres. Ne carne ne pesce todos somos hacienda. AVINYÓ 15 LA PRIMER PLANTA SEMBRA EL DIABLE. Ne zuppa ne pagnato. Chi no ha testa abbia gambe...está todo tan confuso, monocefo karatekid escrivant missatges al revés. ningú vol xreure. ética de la fuga, dela suggerencia i del contrari. NO OKUPIS NO A LA GUERRA. ésta todo tan confuso ni festa ni manis. está todo tan confuso. Una mirada no cuesta nada. Mirada gratis des del interior la policia secret tothom desconfia de tothom tothom es coneix soy el único que ha puesto dinero en el bote de comida lo vuelvo a coger y me tomo unus cervezas. amb la porta oberta pot entrar tothom. solo entre todos. entre tots no farem res, no farem res, no farem res que no hagim fet. aquesta nit farà molt fred... a l´alba reanimalització, a l´alba guaurdia urbana i policias de incognit amb videocameres i pasamontyes assamblea. espai de pau i treva con el aleinto en el cogote. UN EDIFICI DE CINC PLANTES, amb finestrals a banda i banda, i un cel obert a l´interior...durant 38 hores hem sigui propietaris. Los verdugos también mueren George Borracho estabas más guao. com defensar una casa sense un trist forat on cagar? ha premse? está todo tan confuso. F.U.K. TAZ Las ideas són armas tirad! Dos avions de cartó pengen del sostre de la planta princial ZONA CERO querida gente ne se acostumbre estoy en busca y captura por no querer trabajar Per blanÇ "UNA CAMA TRENCADA Y A QUIEN SE RIA LE ATIZO!
la primera planta quatre més i la terrassa.

??????????????????????
??????????????????????
??????????????????????
joint statement by person anonymous (i reckon it was Karete Kid) of the assembly
OPEN SPACE AGAINST WAR. agreed at last nights continuing assembly assemblea.

= coz ipsiphi rekon space woz opened agin de War.
= use it.
= we okupied near 12 million bodies worth of space. dont let them manipulate that. it is metaphysical psychic political space. give it form. reclaim yet again that space by all media of communication possible. The above statement describes the graffiti that was legible. {ipsiphi does symbols}

by Ant Tue Feb 18, 2003 16:25

Those who think that disarming a plane used in the build-up to war is violent need to do some serious thinking.

As pointed out previously, machines are not living creatures which feel pain. I'm a vegetarian because I don't think there's a need to be personally responsible for the deaths of animals. Having stated that, I still wouldn't be arrogant enough to describe meat-eaters as being violent people. For someone to describe attacking a contraption of metal as violence is in all fairness ludicrous. Even more so if the function of that contraption is to assist in the killing of thousands of civilians.

I have a deep respect for the sanctity of human life but I'm not a pacifist. I believe that self defence is justifiable as turning the other cheek just gives the aggressor licence to continue the use of violence.

Regarding direct action, we should do everything within our power to stop Ireland's participation in the war effort. Hopefully, Saturday's numbers will have given enough confidence to the workers in Shannon Airport to withdraw their labour as the Scottish train drivers have done. For the rest of us, I think we should engage in civil disobedience such as blockading the airport to make the refuelling of Shannon as difficult as possible. Waiting around for the boys in the Dáil to take a the cue from Saturday's demonstrations isn't going to stop the refuelling.

However, I think that the effect of a blockade would only last as long as the blockade itself and a blockade of the entrance has the major downfall of preventing ordinary civilian use of the airport.
For a more long-lasting effect, it would take another security breach to embarass the forces of the state in front of the US military. I think there's a good chance that they will withdraw completely from Shannon if say the fence was taken down. Of course organising such a mass action and support for one would be very difficult.

by ipsiphi Tue Feb 18, 2003 20:49 ipsiphi23 at email dot com ipsiphiland.

there are many types of Peace
there are many types of pacifist
and
there are many types of warrior.
continue........................