SWP Shock

by Daniel Waldron - The Socialist Party Sun Feb 16, 2003 15:23 tie4_leadguitaristandvocalist at hotmai dot com 077 53131881

This is completely typical of the SWP. Despite claiming to be Marxists, who should be opposed to all bigotted religious and nationalist movements, they constantly jump on board with one side in a conflict. We in the Socialist Party also completely support freedom and self-determination for the Palestinian flags, but we don't do it by marching under their nationalist flags. Don't the SWP realise that Yassar Arafat's government are right-wing, religionist capitalists, just as much as the Israeli regime? Also, the SWP has long been overly sympathetic towards the Republican movement in Ireland, putting off those workers from Protestant, Unionist/Loyalist background from becoming involved in the movement. We must remember, as James Connolly pointed out, Irish capitalism is no better than British capitalism.

by Daniel Waldron - The Socialist Party Sun Feb 16, 2003 15:27 tie4_leadguitaristandvocalist at hotmai dot com 077 53131881

Ahem... I'll apologise now for referring to the Palestinian people as "flags" in my previous entry. Sorry!

by good bob Sun Feb 16, 2003 15:33

TYPICAL - are you supprised?
You got them worried, you must be doing somthing right!
FF see a swing to the LEFT (not just SWP) and it scares them.
stay tuned for all sorts of dirty trix and propaganda, as the NU IRISH LEFT takes shape...

by Intransigent Sun Feb 16, 2003 17:06

Are all Socialist Party members indoctriniated with the same small minded sectarian attitudes? Oh I'm sorry if I offended you. I forgot that you guys think that Russia was a deformed workers' state! How stupid of me. Sectarianism breeds sectarianism.

by john - sy Sun Feb 16, 2003 18:51

now now comrades lets not spoil the occasion

by hs - socialist party Sun Feb 16, 2003 20:47

this is obviously an attempt by the right wing press to discredit the SWP and then discredit the movement, The SWP are not anti jewish and the anti war movement is not the swp. I would like to here everything RBB said I wouldn't be suprised at the Sindo taking it out of context.

by richie fan Sun Feb 16, 2003 20:49

The SWP have been working on the anti war movement since the Afganistan war began (and also the anti globalisation movement) while the sp did nothing. You sp wasters are now paying that price, but just wait until the ant globalisation movement also takes off and you will have more to bitch about you visionless has beens.

by Irony is dead Sun Feb 16, 2003 22:20

The comment from Daniel Waldron is so outrageous - it must be a troll. The old anti-semitic charge against people being anti-zionist is not new. But it is being used by the ruling class to attack the anti-war movement precisley because we have them reeling. The movement should close ranks and defend the SWP irrespeective of each parts stance on the Israeli state. They'll try anything - including 'terrorist' attacks and pin them on the movement.

by kev - personal capacity Sun Feb 16, 2003 22:24

i have my problems with the swp, but they are not anti-semitic, but then zionists, like the bush administration do with 'anti-americanism', try to paint those opposed to the israeli state terrorism as anti-zewish when in fact this is not the case. i'd say this is just part of the ongoing smear campaign against the anti-war movement. all in a days work of the doctors of spin and lies.

also just to clarify for 'richie-fan' the sp/sy has been involved in the iawm from the start and also in the anti-capitalist movement, in ireland and internationally.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Sun Feb 16, 2003 22:39

I think that Daniel should be a little warier about taking Sunday Independent articles at face value.

The SWP's attitude towards Israel (ie wanting to see it destroyed) is poisonous. Their dismissive attitude towards ordinary Israeli Jewish workers is appalling and wrong but... and this is a big BUT... they are not anti-semitic. A quick look over the SWP's website would certainly reveal lots of things I disagree with and even find unpleasant but there isn't anything anti-semitic there.

This is being raised by pro-war elements because it is a useful smear against the anti-war movement. If they can succesfully portray one of the components of the movement as anti-semitic they hope to damage the movement as a whole.

The SWP's foolish attitude towards Israel gives them a handy stick to beat us with, but if it wasn't this issue they would have found some other way to smear us.

I too would be interested in hearing the full details of what Richard Boyd Barrett said.

by King Mob Sun Feb 16, 2003 23:38

Brian Cahill in a get the boot in to his political oppoents shock horror.

Any fucking excuse eh Brian?

by Queen Mob Sun Feb 16, 2003 23:52

Not only are you pig ignorant politically King Mob, but you cant't even spell properly you big fat waste of space (You should have been aborted at birth). "oppoents" is spelt opponents.

by cleo shoukri Mon Feb 17, 2003 00:19

King mob i've despatched a hit squad to Manchester on the trail of your rabid neonazi 'C' company pals.

by Brian Cahill Mon Feb 17, 2003 01:49

This is a thread which was started by an article attacking the SWP for being "anti-semitic". I made two basic points:

1) That the SWP are not anti-semitic and that this is a stick being used to beat the whole anti-war movement.

2) That the SWP's actual views on Israel and Israeli Jewish workers leave them open to the kind of baiting which the article above was indulging in.

Those are my views on the subject, I stand by them and I have every right to state them.

I also criticised a member of my own organisation (at least I think he is) for being too quick to believe the right wing press. I did my best to ignore the predictable "mean old Socialist Party do nothing, the SWP are great" rubbish above.

by Donnacha - none Mon Feb 17, 2003 01:59 donnacha at sortedmagazine dot com London

Claiming the SWP is anti-Semitic is nonsense, but the sound-bite politics they come up with can be easily misconstrued. Banners with symbols like the star of David equals the Swastika are ignorant and stupid, far better to point out strongly that there has been a strong Jewish anti-Zionist lobby all the way back, from the left (Trotsky, Goldman, Berkman) and the right (the more fundamentalist Jews who believe there can be no state without the Messiah). And lest it be forgotten, the Arabs are Semites too, so supporting them over the Israelis can't be anti-Semitism.

D.

by Daniel Waldron - The Socialist Party Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:15 tie4_leadguitaristandvocalist at hotmai dot com 077 53131881

Maybe I should clarify that I don't believe that the SWP are actually anti-semitic, but they handle their outlook on these sectarian conflicts in a very crass way. For example, in their support of freedom for the Palestinian people, they've got dragged into such blatantly un-Marxist acts as carrying Palestinian flag; the flag of a religionist, right-wing capitalist state, and have also made it look to some, particularly Jews I would say, that they are anti-semitic in their attacks on the Israeli regime, as correct as attacking the Israeli regime is. Instead of diving in head first into one side's camp in these situations, the SWP need to stand back and give a MARXIST analysis and proposed solution to the problem.

The SP did nothing for the anti-war movement during the war on Afghanistan! That's a laugh! We see how committed the SWP were to stopping the war against Afghanistan when they propose to get an independent TD to speak in Belfast at a demo instead of Joe Higgins, even though the independent they proposed actually SUPPORTED the war against Afghanistan.

The SWP move from issue to issue, draining it for the support and publicity they can get and then abandon it, leaving the Socialist Party to pick up the pieces, as seen in the dispute at Dublin City Airport.

We're wasters? What about the SWP up until the late 80's telling its supporters to vote Sinn Fein, making us look like a sectarian movement? What about the SWP rejecting the idea of running in elections or a socialist alliance until the Socialist Party began to grow and won a TD?

Would you deny that Stalinist Russia was a deformed workers' state? Does the SWP see it as being the land of true socialism and universal bliss? Or do you reject the gains of the revolution altogether?

by pat c Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:28

I think the true SWP position is being misrepresented. What they stand for is the smashing of the Zionist State and the creation of a Democratic Secular Socialist Palestine; taking in both the Occupied Territories and the present State of Israel; its citizenry would be Jews, Moslems, Christians, etc, Atheists & Agnostics. They do not stand for driving anyone into the sea.

In an ideal world this is something which many on indy would aspire to; I certainly do. ( In an evem more ideal world, there would be no states.)However, it is unlikely that the World Capitaist Order is going to be overthrown in the short to medium term.

Given that, support for a Palestinian State & the right for Israel to exist within its pre 67 borders (with exiled Palestinians having the Right To Return) is not an unprincipled transitional demand.

by pat c Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:40

Its best not to muddy the waters of the Anti War campaigns and anti Zionism by dragging in the Irish National Question. IF YOU all end up qouting Trotsky , Lenin, Marx & Connolly; YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT MIGHT EMERGE.

"The British Socialist who fails to support by all positive means the uprising in Ireland, Egypt and India against the London plutocracy - such a Socialist deserves to be branded with infamy if not with a bullet, but in no case merits either a mandate or the confidence of the proletariat."

Leon Trotsky 7 August 1920

"The revolutionary tradition of the national struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936. (From his letter to Nora Connolly O'Brien)

by byshe in exile Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:12

Off course its bollocks to say opposing Israel is ant-semitic.

But the easiest way is perhaps if people read the "scandalous" articles for themselves:

The roots of Israel's violence http://www.swp.ie/resources/roots of israel's violence.htm

Bloody evidence of Jenin http://www.swp.ie/resources/bloody evidence of jenin.htm

The Jews, Israel and the Holocaust by Tony Cliff http://www.swp.ie/resources/The Jews, Israel and the Holocaust.htm

Zionism: False messiah http://www.swp.ie/resources/zionism - false messiah.htm

Edward Said on the new intifada http://www.swp.ie/resources/Said - Intifada 2000.htm

Palestine and the middle east peace process http://www.swp.ie/resources/BOOKWATCH - PALESTINE AND THE MIDDLE EAST 'PEACE PROCESS'.doc

Chris Harman: The Prophet and the Proletariat (1994) http://www.marxists.de/religion/harman/index.htm

Israel is the terrorist http://www.swp.ie/resources/Israel%20is%20the%20terrorist.htm

Special feature on Israel and Palestine
http://www.swp.ie/resources/Resistance%20Special%20Feature%20on%20Israel%20and%20Palestine.htm

by Prine Mob Mon Feb 17, 2003 14:19

A case of your lies being found out King Mob?

by Prince Mob Mon Feb 17, 2003 14:20

A case of your lies being found out King Mob?

by King Mob Mon Feb 17, 2003 15:46

Go on elaborate

by pat c Mon Feb 17, 2003 16:23

King Mob unnesscessarily abused Aoife but I didnt notice any lies. She, like the SWP in general, has a habit of exaggerating everything.

Its really getting silly consulting solicitors re libel & slander! Those were only insults for fucks sake!

Mob & I have exchanged far worse %^"!**&&!

by pat c Mon Feb 17, 2003 16:28

Comment on wrong thread! It is a Monday...

Still though, I think Mob was right. Its just the SP having a go. Dragging any topic under the sun in so that they can have a go at the SWP.

Dont muddy thw aters comrades.

by Princess Mob Mon Feb 17, 2003 20:08

Nuff said, you sad pathetic individual. In case you didn't notice Pat C you're hated almost as much as King Mob by most people on IMC Ireland with your equally weird and off the wall views. Now would you go and do us all a favour and FUCK OFF!

by Chris Henry - Socialist Youth Coleraine Mon Feb 17, 2003 21:41 lavosfanfiction at hotmail dot com

The Socialist Party and the SWP have a very different outlook on many, many issues, without question, and at points we're always going to come into conflict as a result. I don't believe that the SWP are anti-semitic; it is a brush that the left in this country and indeed across the world have been tarred with for long enough, and it must end sooner rather than later.
Personally, I agree with Daniel Waldron's comments in the case of the capitalist right-wing nature of the current Palestinian state, and in this respect I would question the nature of the SWP's method of support in terms of the Palestinian situation. It is all too easy to fall into a way of thinking that an independent Palestine will act as the be all and end all for the working class people of the region; far from it. Even after conflict ends (which in reality under the current form of capitalism is a pie in the sky concept anyway) the scars will still run deep in the country. The oppression by Sharon upon the Palestinian people must indeed end, but similarly Arafat's Palestinian Authority must be taken out also. Reforms to make it "more democratic" will never work; they simply prolong the ineptitude of a flawed right-wing oppressive state who will do little more for working-class people in the region than they would do under pain of conflict and Israeli oppression. A socialist alternative is the only way forward to securing a lasting stability in the region; all socialists, whether they be SP or SWP or A.N Other, would do well to remember that.

by Intransigent Tue Feb 18, 2003 00:29

Did anyone see the SP newspaper sellers on Saturday's anti war march? They did try and hide the newspapers as they ran about desperately trying to sell them. You see the part about the hiding well that's because their front cover was about the BIN TAX! Wake up you fucking morons! You are on a march of 130000 people and you are trying to sell a paper with the BIN TAX as the lead story!!!! Maybe the SWP are ahead of you guys in their politics. But maybe as you guys see it the working class are not ready to have these politics thrown at them. Just feed em good old economic issues that they understand. You are fucking morons. Stop criticising and start doing some serious work if you want to achieve your oh so great deformed workers state. While I just go back to my State Capitalism!!!!

by Precious Princess Tue Feb 18, 2003 00:40

How you've flung accusations againist me on any number of threads but not elaborated on them.

You're a second rate liar now be a dear and toddle off the grown ups want to talk.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Tue Feb 18, 2003 05:09

I have in front of me a copy of the issue of the Voice which was sold on the demonstration. Its front page headline is "No War For Oil".

The back page is also about opposition to the war. In total six and a half of the twelve pages of the paper are about the war.

I hope that our SWP friend, "Intransigent", is feeling suitably foolish about his or her incoherent and abusive lies.

More generally the attitude displayed in his/her petulant outburst is all too typical of the SWP. Stop discussing politics and get out there and leaflet! For the record, the Socialist Party is deeply involved in the anti-war movement, as are many other groups and individuals. We just don't think that involvement in a campaign necessitates abandoning our critical faculties. The SWPers amongst us might want to reflect on the fact that some of us are capable of handing out a leaflet and thinking too.

by pat c Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:13

"Stop licking King Mob's hole Pat C
by Princess Mob Mon, Feb 17 2003, 7:08pm"

Not doing so. Even Mob is correct on occasions; he just overdoes the abuse.

"Nuff said, you sad pathetic individual."

Surely you can do better than that?

"In case you didn't notice Pat C you're hated almost as much as King Mob by most people on IMC Ireland with your equally weird and off the wall views."

Hated by who?

Loyalists? Yes.
Middle class pseudo pacificist & lifestyle-"anarchists" & "Trotskyites"? Yes.
Zionists? Yes.
Anonymous fools like you who are incapable of expressing any coherent viewpoint? Yes.

Hmmm. I must be doing something right.

"Now would you go and do us all a favour and FUCK OFF!"

Really, thats just juvenile abuse! Theres a big back-catalogue of insults MOb & I traded. You'd be better off recycling some of those.

by Chekov Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:23

SWP and SP members, I must commend you on the level of entertainment, both subtle and nuanced, that emerges from your 'debates' here.

The SP having a go at the SWP for their bias towards republicans, parity of esteem between the idea of a republic and the idea of a monarchy? - Good opener!

The SWP calling the SP "small minded sectarians" - nice!

The SWP pointing out how the SP mistake "state capitalism" for a "deformed workers state" - shining dialectics!

The SWP accusing the SP of 'bandwagon jumping' and then - without irony - bringing in the anti-globalisation movement before putting the cherry on the cake by calling them 'visionless has beens' - priceless!

The SP admitting that the SWP are not anti-semitic and then immediately following by attacking their 'poisonous' attitude towards Israel and their 'appalling and wrong' view of Jewish workers - sweet backhand stroke!

The SWP (wrongly) accusing the SP of selling a paper with a bin tax headline as if it was somehow a crime to support more than one campaign at once, apparently there is something wrong with not dropping everything to take up the flavour of the month - the cherry on the cake!

So keep it up folks, this entertainment is inimitable and it always reassures me that no matter how out-there we anarchists can sometimes seem, youse are in a different league (if not planet) altogether!

by E - SWP Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:33

I don't know if that comment by "Intransigent" is by a SWP member or not, the problem with Indymedia is that anyone can claim to be anyone they want to be. It was a stupid comment as our latest issue of the paper is just like yours, front page on the war, back page on the bin charges. There’s no evidence that "Intransigent" is in the SWP and yet you should know better as it could easily be an attempt to troll and annoy you.

Anyway, the whole attempt by the Sindo was as a attack on one of the organizations involved in the anti-war movement, I don't think I would suggest that the SP haven't played as much a part in the build-up to Feb 15th as the SWP has.

by Chris Henry - Socialist Youth Coleraine Tue Feb 18, 2003 14:41 lavosfanfiction at hotmail dot com

We should always remember that the views on these boards are individual, not the official outlooks of the parties represented a good lot of the time.

Also, Chekov, I believe that your "anti-semitism" point concerning the SP/SWP, is unfair, and I will explain why. Although I acknowledge that the SWP is NOT anti-semitic, I will also make the point that the SWP attitude to Israel is a biased one, and not in keeping with socialist thinking. Unity for working class people in BOTH regions must be encouraged, rather than siding with one capitalist power over another, even if the people in Palestine are under greater threat than those in Israel at this time.

A biased attitude over Israel does not mean that the SWP are anti-zionist or anti-semitic. Although it is a case of siding with one over the other, we cannot be accused of contradicting ourselves when we criticise the policy of the SWP. It is one thing to have a biased political agenda; it is quite another to have an agenda of prejudice, which I do not acknowledge the SWP to have.

by Intransigent Tue Feb 18, 2003 17:41

Not me typing away there lads. Someone's been up to their usual tricks. Though not for the first time. I think we need to stop this petty sectarianism. But have a feeling that someone is just ttrying to stir up something.

by Chekov Tue Feb 18, 2003 18:01

And Intransigent, whoever was imitating you was pretty convincing in terms of style and political content!

Incidentally the purpose of my post was an attempt to point out how ludicrous it looks to be slandering each other over deformed workers states at the moment. If you think there are trolls around, don't feed them.

by sp ud Tue Feb 18, 2003 21:36

it is true that the SWP are more immaginative and faster off the mark on issues such as anti war and anti globalisation than the sp

by pat c Wed Feb 19, 2003 12:49

Surely the USSR was a degenerated Workers State from the Orthodox Trot point of view? All the rest were deformed Workers States because they didn't have proper revolutions (no snow on the ground, this always snookers Cuba fans).

by Donnacha - none Wed Feb 19, 2003 17:26 donnacha at sortedmagazine dot com London

"A biased attitude over Israel does not mean that the SWP are anti-zionist or anti-semitic."

Please do not tell me you equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, they are not the same thing. Real Zionism (not the raving imaginings of right-wingers) is a form of militant nationalism akin to all the others. It's a religious based ideology that is not compatible with left-wing ideologies. There is a strong history of left-wing opposition to Zionism, particularly among Jewish groups. Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman were vocally opposed to Zionism. Zionism as much as Islamism or any other ism that puts one group above another is dangerous.

D.

by E - SWP Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:42

A later posting has an update on this situation

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=29754