Americans being militarily defeated in Afghanistan

by Irish American Wed Feb 05, 2003 21:22

Yes, the fascist al-Qaeda and Taliban are "still raping women and burning [girls'] schools," as you quote, but we are making steady progress with minimal military forces.

The Afghan people are able to relax and enjoy basic freedom in Kabul and the many other places under allied control. An Afghan army is being trained to maintain a democratic order. Mines and munitions are being cleared.

Women are allowed health care, employment and have even taken positions in the Karzai government.

Afghans are allowed to listen to music, dance, laugh in public and fly kites. Stores renting Bollywood movies are doing a booming business.

All these developments must be troubling to you, Phuq Hedd. As you believe, any third world tyranny is superior to US-brought freedom.

Many of the forces which have brought these benefits transited through Shannon.

by Phuq Hedd Wed Feb 05, 2003 21:30

And only a cynical and unpleasant war-monger like yourself would interpret it as such. The article by Robert Fisk and my purpose in linking to it attempts to show that contrary to the perception and claim that bombing and invading can usher in Democracy and Freedom this is not actually the case.

It shows that the semi-fascist Muslim forces (such as the Northern Alliance) that were backed by the USA in a cynical attempt to unseat first the USSR and then the Taliban are still there.

It shows that you can't create Freedom and Democracy by playing disgusting Realpolitik with innocent humans.

It shows that if the USA intensifies its illegal military offensive on Iraq then we will not be seeing a Free Democracy. We will see a fake-democracy containing some token representatives of minorities who do the US's bidding.

For a US State Dept. operative like yourself this may be acceptable. For ordinary people like me that believe in the ideals of Freedom and Democracy it is not.

by Another Irish American - US Citizen / US Marine Wed Feb 05, 2003 21:33 PfartOnPhuckHed at poopoo dot com Nah Nah

In a few weeks I too may fly through Shannon on my way to join the fray. I hope that during our "immoral abuse" (quoted from another article I read today) of the Shannon airport we lay over long enough for me to see the island my forefathers came from. I hear it is beautiful. Love us or hate us we're a superpower and will try our best to improve the standard of living in the world. I don't agree with everything the US Gov't does but they do pay my check every two weeks and provide my friends and family a safe place to live... God Bless America.

by Irish American Wed Feb 05, 2003 21:49

and good luck.

by maleek - Humanity Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:00

Your lucky your not black in america. or you might get shot 41 times. convicted for a crime you did not commit, and then released after years of incarciration. God Bless america? I really doubt it. Power, Money, Greed, and cold calculation are the only blessings that can be associated with america.

War=Peace
Ignorance=Strength

Maleek

by Irish American Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:02

I'm sure it's some paradise.

by Maleek Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:11

Not to far from you my patriotic friend. I just have the wrong skin color to fully realize your empty apple pied dreams.

Maleek

by Phuq Hedd Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:23

Wars carried out by the USA have not helped Freedom and Democracy. Instead they have done the reverse. Here http://mujweb.atlas.cz/www/PressChat/us_int.htm is a link to a list of the invasions and military interventions that the USA has made recently.

Finally, the link below contains an assessment by Noam Chomsky of what sort of fake-democracy will be put into power in Iraq. Here's an extract:

"The chances that they will allow anything approximating real democracy are pretty slight. There's major problems in the way of that - problems that motivated Bush No 1 to oppose the rebellions in 1991 that could have overthrown Saddam Hussein. After all, he could have been overthrown then if the US had not authorised Saddam to crush the rebellions.

One major problem is that roughly 60% of the population is Shi'ite. If there's any form of democratic government, they're going to have a say, in fact a majority say, in what the government is. Well they are not pro-Iranian but the chances are that a Shi'ite majority would join the rest of the region in trying to improve relations with Iran and reduce the levels of tension generally in the region by re-integrating Iran within it. There have been moves in that direction among the Arab states and Shi'ite majority in Iraq is likely to do that. That's the last thing the US wants. Iran is its next target.

It doesn't want improved relations. Furthermore if the Shi'ite majority gets for the first time a real voice in the government, the Kurdish minority will want something similar. And they will want a realisation of their quite just demands for a degree of autonomy in the northern regions. Well Turkey is not going to tolerate that. Turkey already has thousands of troops in Northern Iraq basically to prevent any such development. If there' s move towards Kirkuk, which they regard as their capital city, Turkey will move to block it, the US will surely back them, just as the United States has strongly supported Turkey in its massive atrocities against the Kurds in the 1990s in the south-eastern regions. What you're going to be left with is either a military dictatorship with some kind of democratic façade, like maybe a parliament that votes while the military runs it behind the scenes - it's not unfamiliar - or else putting power back into the hands of something like the Sunni minority which has been running it in the past."

by Irish American Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:23

Well, "Maleek," I'm a lawyer and I will acknowledge that people are convicted wrongly in the US, as in other countries. People are shot by police by mistake in the US, as in other countries.

If you live in the US, I can understand your focus on it, but have you lived anywhere else.

News to you: People are imperfect everywhere.

As far as skin color goes, if you are darker than me, stop using it as an excuse for your own failings.

Remember (brown) Kalpana Chawla, who went from immigrating to the US to being an astronaut in less than ten years. Or (black) Col. Michael Anderson, who got a degree in physics and astronomy to fulfill his goal of going to space.

by lone gunman Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:26 preacher104 at hotmail dot com

Amazing Fucked in the head Fisk has really lost track of his medication.Has he forgotton that there are more news sources than the Indo,CNN and SKY or Al Jezera??Funnily enough the French and Germans who have a peacekeeping or occupation force depending on your view and would be only too happy to report on American atrocities are silent!Propaganda has to be beliveable,not taken from the Nutter times.Also if there such great victories how long do you think it could be kept quiet in the USA???? Even in Vietnam the Mai Lai massacare wasn't kept quiet for more than three months.
BTW I just want to know if Klintoon or Gore or some Democrat was president.Would everyone be making such a fuss about the USA foregin politics,and Iraq?klintoon supported the UN embargo of Iraq and the protests were quite silent.Or is it just because there is a republican majority in congress,the senate and the White house?

by Irish American Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:34

WWII, which freed Europe

The Korean War, which at least preserved South Korea for freedom.

We tried and failed in Vietnam. I live near many Vietnamese refugees who would disagree with you. Using the oft-cited examples of countries divided between US and Communist influence like Germany and Korea, don't you think South Vietnam would be better off if we had held off the North Vietnamese?

The Cold War generally. We helped hold the line in Europe and Asia against Stalin and later dictators.

In Grenada, we removed the Coard regime which killed Maurice Bishop and about 100 other Grenadines.

In Panama, we removed Noriega after his thugs nearly beat an opposition leader to death on the street.

Kuwait is not perfect, but it is a lot better and freer than Iraq.

Bosnia, Kosovo

maybe I forgot a couple???

by Phuq Hedd Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:36

I gather from your "spelling" and "logic" that you probably have a difficulty with "reading". Read the Fisk article, /then/ pound randomly on the keyboard. Fisk is quoting the New York Times for much of his evidence. But you probably dismiss that as "liberal" propaganda right?

Now, discuss the evidence. Present your own. Make logical non-abusive statements. Otherwise I'll take it that you agree that you have no rational argument against the evidence that the USA supports and creates non-Democratic and non-Free countries, the latest example being Afghanistan.

by Maleek Wed Feb 05, 2003 22:40

No my friend. I do not side with any oppressor. Black,Red, White, Blue, whatever. That means that I do not subscribe to this evil is worse than that evil..or whatever ridiculous justification, brainwashed servents like you can come up with. I do not care about Uncle toms that assimilate into the same system that refers to them as a nigger behind their back. Sometmes to their faces. I make no excuse for anything, much like I ask for nothing. I'll just take, thank you very much. That means that the state you love will probably be the death of me. I can accept that Like Malcom X, Martin Luther King, and all the others whose blood stains Americas hands have. Allende, Che, and countless others we don't have the books about them. We do not grieve them, we take their example and push through to a better world. One that does not need explotation, and consumerism to justify its worth. Your arguments are a joke, and are better left to your yuppie friends who drive S.U.V. and read the Wall Street Journal. Bring that bullshit to the ghettos, or the rest of the world, and you might hear something new. Ohhh, and I have lived in other places...and I have seen justice. Community, and all sorts of wonderfull things. Then they put up that McDonalds...or that Coca Cola plant...or Chevron paid assasins gunning down the children in Nigera that protested their policies. The list goes on and on... You keep holding that flame though. Keep that chin up.

Love, Evolution, Peace
Maleek

by Afghan sacualties get no state funerals Wed Feb 05, 2003 23:28

How disrespectful is it to the dozens of US soldiers who have died on Crusade in Afghanistan that they mean so little compared with "brave" Astronauts.

by Bystander Wed Feb 05, 2003 23:46

WWII, which freed Europe

***Only in conjunction with the Soviet Union - Irish American, check the casualty figures for WWII and , though you'll probably be struck blind for a moment, that the US contributed fuck all to the freedom of Europe. Only with the well organised and motivated communist parties of Italy and France, the social democratic working class of britain and the massive efforts of the Soviet people would the Nazi's have been beaten. Remember while Britain was holding out against the Nazi's and the Russians were reeling from the June '41 invasion your lazy forefathers were still trying to figure which milkshake tasted better.****

We tried and failed in Vietnam.

***Don't be so hard on yourselves - you didn't fail in Vietnam - you'll killed millions of "commies",men, women and children, as well a millions more in Laos and Cambodia, not to mention fucking the region up for generations. Obviously you're a firm believer in the doctrine that to free them you must kill them first. Oh, I almost forgot - were the US strongs supporters of the Khmer Rouge at one stage?****

I live near many Vietnamese refugees who would disagree with you.

***Probably all SVA war criminals****

The Cold War generally. We helped hold the line in Europe and Asia against Stalin and later dictators.

***While imposing genocidal maniacs on South and Central America - did I mention the "School of the Americas"?.

In Grenada, we removed the Coard regime which killed Maurice Bishop and about 100 other Grenadines.

****And??***

In Panama, we removed Noriega after his thugs nearly beat an opposition leader to death on the street.

***Wow - "nearly" beating an opposition leader to death justifies andinvasion that kills thousands. What kinda drugs are you on??"

Kuwait is not perfect, but it is a lot better and freer than Iraq.

***Ah - the old right-wing "whatever you do, don't mention Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Isreal" trick. Kuwait's a fucking backwater - what about US sponsored "freedom" in Saudi??"

by Des Thu Feb 06, 2003 00:13

“Irish American”, when you wish to make a comment on a post, I would strongly suggest that you do a little research first. Your previous “comments” reveal a staggering lack of knowledge re the Gulf in general and Iraq in particular. Saddam Hussein was and is a ruthless dictator, a ruthless dictator that was installed in power courtesy of a CIA sponsored coup. U.S. imperialism and its allies created and sustained his military build up in order to safeguard their oil interests. In 1983, Ronald Reagan sent Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq to meet with Saddam to assure him of U.S. support in his invasion of Iran, (obviously he was not a monster then), Washington also provided him with over FOUR BILLION DOLLARS in export credits. It was only when he developed regional ambitions and moved into Kuwait that he became less than flavour of the month, then he became a threat to U.S. interests and Dubya’s father launched the Gulf “freedom struggle”. After the war, they stood back and ignored the repression of the Kurds and Marsh Arabs by Saddam’s forces. Success U.S. administrations have displayed no interest in the welfare or human rights of the Iraqi people; their only interest (for decades) has been the country’s oil wealth. Instead, the sanctions regime, strongly supported by Washington has caused the deaths of over half a million Iraqi children, but has inflicted no pain on Saddam or his supporters. Bush now intends on following the example of his Afghan policy and installing a stooge (like Karzai) who will co-operate with U.S. oil companies to exploit Iraqi oil.

Incidentally, I would not boast too much about your Afghan success, carpet-bombing innocent people is nothing to be proud of. The country is in a total mess, and your stooge Karzai has no control outside Kabul. The only growth industry is opium, another example of the “war on drugs”, Oliver North would be proud. Of course, the boys and girls in Langley have years of experience of working with the drugs trade.
Somehow I don’t think that the Afghan people will believe that their standard of living has improved. It’s impossible to achieve that with B-52’s.

by Ants Thu Feb 06, 2003 04:03

Hey!! Speaking of bombing, my old man flew with the 8th Air Force during WW2 and he told me several times they had to "BUZZ" Irish towns because a lot of Irish were aiding the Nazis. Well what do you expect, I mean they are Irish.

by Dreaming fools Thu Feb 06, 2003 04:22

Hi Irish American. You can't talk sense with guys. For example maleek can't explain why if African Americans are so opressed in the U.S why they are not standing in line to enter Canada. Also Phuq Hedd resorts to spell checking other people's posts as he can't make a point of his own.

Just ignore them and they will return to 'stroking' their own 'egos'. It's the small
country thing, they are powerless so they think if they whine loudly about the only country with the balls and resources to do any good in the world people will pay attention.

As for them thinking you are State Department. HA!! What a joke. Kinda sad really that their biggest dream is that some State Department intern would have the time to post on this sorry ass site.

HA!HA!HA!

GBA.

by 0=0=0 Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:29

Your forefathers were forced to leave this country for many many years because of war, and oppression, famine, rape, and burning of (girls) homes, many of them were uneducated and many joined the army in America to fight and die in a foreign land for someone they didn't know who didn't care about them. It seems not much has changed. Only that now the dehuminisation called empire that stomped all over this island for hundreds of years has moved to new pasture.
War is suffering... maybe your forefathers were to ashamed to tell you or you didn't listen, war is hate, war is pain, war drags humanity into a hell impossible to escape just ask the forefathers of the afghan people. you do your forefathers memory no justice by cynically using their ancestral home as a drive through for empire, their memory is one of 800 years of bitter resistence, this war is not about freedom or democracy it is about EMPIRE remember that respect your forefathers. Go home and resist as they did...

by Terry Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:01

If you wish to see a report of US casualities in Afghanistan of which
from Oct 2001 to June 2002, there were 867 dead, then see the following URLs

http://www.jihadunspun.net/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html
http://www.jihadunspun.net/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty03.html

This has already been discussed with some reply comments earlier in the week.
For this thread see
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=26461&start=150

by B52 Downer Thu Feb 06, 2003 14:00

"I love this site...
by Another Irish American - US Citizen / US Marine Wed, Feb 5 2003, 8:33pm
address: Nah phone: Nah [email protected]

In a few weeks I too may fly through Shannon on my way to join the fray"

Maybe a Stinger will greet you somewhere along your journey. Remember you gave a lot of those missiles to Osma when he was working for you in Afghanistan.

by Albo Thu Feb 06, 2003 14:34

Irish American, you should read independent history books

Americans have this strange idea that USA "saved the British asses". In World War II, by the time America entered the war, the Allies already had Hitler on the running - sure, America helped in the whole thing, but the work was done by the British and USSR, the Americans arriving just in time for the "tap-in".

In Vietnam, America sided with the minority, which is surely against that whole "democracy" thing they seem to support. (Let's not go into the cruel dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which they still support)

by MG Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:09

It's Karzai's goons who are doing the raping, not Osama and Mullah Omar.

"The Constitution, in reality, will be just for the authentication and legalization of their treasons and blood sovereignty. Our people have the Loya Jirga before their eyes and they know well how it turned into a scene of power showdown and a means of imposing the fundamentalist wishes and whims through the presence of these murderers and rapists of mothers of seventy and small girls of seven. And the situation will not get any better than this undemocratic and agent-filled Loya Jirga if the "Northern Alliance" continues to maintain its filthy existence outside of the grip of the courts of law." - Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/dec10-02.htm

by Phuq Hedd Thu Feb 06, 2003 19:20

Grenada:
A hardline Marxist (Coard) replaced a soft Marxist (Bishop) in a coup. Cuban construction workers assisted in building a runway to be used in assisting the tourist trade of the island. The US claimed that it was a threat to the US. The US decided to attack citing the runway and "fears" about the safety of US medical students. The Organisation of American States condemned the US invasion 11-1 (guess who the 1 was). The result? Dead Cubans and Grenadians and a country which has not developed economically. Big success. (24 Cubans, 18 US troops, 42 Grenadians).

Korea:
Years of military dictatorship installed by the United States. Luckily the resistance of the people has never faltered and the fascists have been mostly beaten back. With the recent crushings of children by US armored personel carriers calls for the withdrawal of the US military have resulted in huge street demonstrations.

Kosovo:
US bombs civilians and civilian infrastructure from the air. US is warned by its own military planners that this is likely to intensify ethnic-cleansing but it goes ahead anyway. Result? Lots of dead displaced people, a sort-of-democracy that it remains hard to see how it's going to play out.

I forget your other examples. However if those are the BEST that you can cite then they prove my point. Bombing is more likely to result in military dictatorships and murder of civilians than anything else. US foreign policy has been a disaster for Freedom and Democracy. You people would have been slung back to Britain by the Founding Fathers as anti-Republican pro-Imperialist stooges.

by Phuq Hedd Thu Feb 06, 2003 19:43

I forgot to mention, after the US had invaded Grenada illegally they installed Sir Eric Gairy, the previous semi-fascist dictator of the island who used his "Mongoose Gang" to suppress political opposition and break strikes.

(So nice job there by both Stalinists and the US. Sometimes I find either of you fuckers hard to tell apart. You both blather on about freedom and you both murder people and invade countries where you're not wanted. Do you ever get the feeling that it's just authoritarians in different ideological clothing?!).

Now, get the fuck out of our country and stay out.

by lone gunman Thu Feb 06, 2003 22:43 preacher104 at hotmail dot com

Yup,sorry,my spellung isnt none twoo good.I rully kant argue with a furst klass kolledge libural like U.
Actully quoting the New York Times is like quoting from the Sun.Since Mr Murdoch owns both and MR Fisk works forMr Murdoch in the Times.Do try and research who your heros works for,And it is lazy journalism.But then mr Fisk is not known for his objectivity,or for getting out to do some research.Liberal American washed up hippie journalist sitting on his arse in London. I see you fall back on the old lawyer tactic.Strong on law argue the law,strong on facts, argue the facts.Strong on neither attack your opponent.Now maybe you might care to answer my question, where did mr Fisk,or whoever get the information about these apparent massacres?There are plenty of organisations who would research and bring these attentions to the world media.And No there are plenty of newsfeeds that are not controlled by the US ofA.Actually even if there is COMPELLING evidence of a massacare,which no doubt you or whomever belives there is and no doubt have actual proof thereof,why not make a big deal of it to the UN ,and secondly the office of the US army attorney general.They are obliged by both US and international law to investigate any such claims. An yaz Ill leave dese spelung mistakes in here to piss you off.

by Phuq Hedd Thu Feb 06, 2003 23:33

Actually I never went to college. We have what we call "primary schools" in Ireland, it's all part of our socialistic European system which believes in providing education and healthcare for everyone. One of the things we do in primary schools is learn how to read and write. It really helps with a Democracy!

Now, because I know how to read I've readily adapted to the "Internet" which provides "search engines" for "web pages". I'm happy to share (there's that European Communism coming out in me again!) the information that I have with you so that you wont make a tragic mistake.

Here's independent information that tells us just how much "feminism" bombing brought in:
RAWA Nov.2001 make clear Northern Alliance = Taliban (this on the revolutionary news source CNN)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/COMMUNITY/11/19/saba.cnna/

Fundamentalists control the judiciary in "new" government:http://wwww.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/vID/3706805A4C4F4363C1256CBC004B4F92?OpenDocument
While the international community has dithered on judicial development, the factions within the Transitional Administration that control the judiciary have moved swiftly to promote their interests. The Supreme Court is controlled by Fazl Hadi Shinwari, an ally of the Saudi-backed fundamentalist leader Abd al-Rabb al-Rasul Sayyaf. Shinwari was appointed in December 2001 by former president Burhanuddin Rabbani. President Hamid Karzai re-appointed him in June 2002,

There's still plenty of fighting and bombing going on and there's LOTS of factions (Agence France Presse)
http://wwww.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/480fa8736b88bbc3c12564f6004c8ad5/2982fac746ead5cec1256cbe0055be89?OpenDocument
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/480fa8736b88bbc3c12564f6004c8ad5/1aae59f70ca69b6749256cc3000c75b8?OpenDocument

And as regards your not being able to read: I don't know why I bother responding to you because I have conclusive proof that you didn't bother to read the piece I originally linked to. If you, or "Irish American" had bothered to read it instead of just typing rants then you'd have noticed that the Marc Kaufman article is actually in the Wall Street Journal, not the NYT. Is that owned by Murdoch too?

BOMBING DOES NOT CREATE DEMOCRACIES. THE USA DOES NOT CREATE DEMOCRACIES.