Maharishi reveals technology to eliminate negative 'karma' for nations

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:27

Trepanning is not 'new technology'. People have been putting holes in their head for millenia.

by Rama Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:16

Use an AKM!

by Anonymous Wed Feb 05, 2003 15:11

The intellect and insight of a man like the Maharishi dwarfs the likes of you and I.

I have no doubt he is onto something. But just like so is left wing politics, in order for either to succeed, it will need an incredible, large scale, worldwide change of consciousness in order for either to work....

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 16:18 richardhughes103 at hotmail dot com

I have been practising TM for many years and have taken par in numerous courses to prevent war and civil strife. All of which where independently monitored and reported in reputable journals (International journal for conflict resolution, Harvard sociological research, American psychology today)It really does work. The effects on us were tremendous as well. You really have to try it to believe it.

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 16:49

Where are the links to this independent research? Are you just telling me what you were told, or have you seen this research yourself? What is this research supposed to prove?
Did you see any flying? (And I don't mean people bouncing up and down on their arses, I mean people actually hovering in the air, the way the Mahascamartist says he can)
How much of your money have you handed over so far?

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:08 richardhughes103 at hotmail dot com

No I have experienced all of these things, I never take anything at face value. The only links I know of can be found on the ig noble awards site, under physics 1994, this features the paper published in the harvard sociology journal. the ig noble awards are warded to scientists whose work makes you laugh at first but then makes you think. There are also links on the TM website. As long as you are a bit open minded this is the most fascinating phenomenon that is happening on Earth right now.

I really doubt Maharishi does it for the money I have seen no evidence for people getting roch of TM.

As for Yogic flying I have only once experienced effortless flying where I seemed to be floating upwards but seeing it wouldn't convince perhaps, the fact is subjectively YF is an ecstasy beyond compare and requires no energy at all, I once checked my pulse after a half hour session it was less than 30bpm. It has it's effect on society by radiating this peace outwards through the collective consciousness. Yes I know how it sounds but as I say you must experience it for yourself. Or at least read the research data.

As for me if a course is proposed for radiating peace in the middle east this spring I will be first in line.

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:33

The Ig Nobel awards are "for "achievements that cannot or should not be reproduced." Examine that phrase carefully. It covers a lot of ground. It says nothing as to whether a thing is good or bad, commendable or pernicious."
Have a look at the company you keep. (Including, in 1994, PHYSICS
The Japan Meterological Agency, for its seven-year study of
whether earthquakes are caused by catfish wiggling their tails. )
Winning an Iggy doesn't mean your research has been taken seriously. (and by the way, according to the Ig site the paper was published in a TM mag, not a Harvard journal)

As for the giggling guru, try here
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/tm.html

Honestly, how can you put your trust in someone who claims to be able to fly, but has never been able to do it? Do you not require any evidence at all before you believe in something? You say 'read the research data'. I've asked you for this data, and you have yet to provide it.

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:40

The ig noble wards site claims otherwise I know I checked though aparently you didn't. You seem annoyed that i don't know URLs of the top of my head but really it's simple just type TM research into a search engine and check the results. Thats what I mean by read the data.

Also I would advise not just reading any old anti TM website as they have there own agendas, just stick to the stuff thats been published in peer reviewed journals like the ones I mentioned.

I shall have a look at the URL you give and shall report back in a minute, though I have seen nothing to dismiss the actual research that has been done and published.

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:48

I do require a lot of evidence before I believe in something. The beauty of TM is it's an experience not a belief system and just dismissing it because it doesnt fit into your world view is unscientific to say the least. But sceptics can relax as there have been hundreds of published papers on TM for people who need 'evidence'.

As for Maharishi never having flown, how do you know?

Seriously it doesn't matter if none of us actually fly. My experience (not belief) is of a much greater power than doimg it on my own. This has been tested by measuring the brain waves of people meditating when nearby people where yogic fliyng en-masse. Yes, it was a double blind experiment. But no I don't have a link at hand to prove it.

by Rama Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:49

But when people are attacked by the USA, surely they have a right to defend themselves. An ounce of lead through the skull is the appropraite type of trepanning in those cases.

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:52

The paper was eventually published in the Harvard journal, the delay was caused by the US govt changing the rules on using police data for research. Yes the data was from washington police and indepenntly verified by Harvard, during the 2 month course there was a 25% drop in reported crime and a larger drop in hospital admissions.

I like the idea of catfish causing eartquakes I wonder hat yogic flyers do!

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 17:56

The Ig Nobel site hosts an essay, "What is this Ig" http://www.improbable.com/ig/what-is-this-ig.html
and that's where I got the quote.
According to the Ig Nobel site http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html
the research they were mocking was published by the "Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy, Fairfield, Iowa". A TM 'research institute'.
The winner of the prize for Entomology that year was "Robert A. Lopez of Westport, NY, valiant veterinarian and friend of all creatures great and small, for his series of experiments in obtaining ear mites from cats, inserting them into his own ear, and carefully observing and analyzing the results." You're in some fine company.

As for 'putting TM into a search engine' - I have, and the results are predictable. A load of sites owned by the Mahascamartist. I want _independent research_, and that isn't it. Where are the peer reviewed journals you talked about?

According to the guy who's getting all your money, TM practitioners are able to hover in the air, fly, and even turn invisible. These are very easy claims to prove, right? All you need is an independent observer and a video camera, right? So how come this has NEVER been demonstrated?
More to the point, why do you keep on believing something so obviously untrue? A scam that a child could see through? Why is it that the first words out of your mouth, when being told of the amazing things that TM could do, weren't "Prove it"? Why did you hand over the money for your meditation course without seeing someone fly? How desperate to believe are you?

by Richard hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:00

Your link to the Doug Henning story was interesting but untrue in more ways than I can go into right now. Up to his death Doug was a massive fan of TM and worked endlessly for the movement. Far from being gullible it takes a lot to impress me (and Doug I suppose) and that 'lot' is TM itself, we are not brainwashed, in fact TM makes one think so much more clearly perhaps this is neccesary to accept the possibility of paradigm shifting research like John Hagelins.

I don't know it's always the same old stuff that gets trotted out on these anti TM websites the people reading them have no idea that they are being decieved as there is no chance of a right to reply. I have tried as well believe me! The trancenet site is a particularly depressing load of rubbish but they won't let me have my say, at least someone might be reading this and maybe think for themselves about this.

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:04

You really haven't grasped the concept yet, have you?
'there have been hundreds of published papers on TM'
I can go out an publish a paper tomorrow saying that I've been to the moon, but that doesn't make it true. _Independent_ research, in _peer-reviewed_ journals is evidence. The Maharishi writing "I can fly" on a piece of paper isn't.

'As for Maharishi never having flown, how do you know?'
How do you know I haven't been to the moon? You don't. But since its an outrageous claim to make, the burden of proof is on me. Its the same for your con man. He's the one who says he can fly, its up to him to provide the proof.

'Seriously it doesn't matter if none of us actually fly'
Well I'm not the one who said you could. You're the one giving the money to someone who can turn invisible and fly through the air. Now that he's said it, he should provide some proof. Or are you happy following someone who makes outrageous claims that he refuses to back up? Why would he lie about these things?

'The paper was eventually published in the Harvard journal'
Where's the link? Where's the review of the statistical methods used? Where's the examination of their methodology?

You keep telling me that there are 'hundreds' of research papers about this, but you keep failing to come up with an independent study. Why do you think that is?

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:07

"these anti TM websites the people reading them have no idea that they are being decieved as there is no chance of a right to reply."
is in the paragraph right after
"untrue in more ways than I can go into right now"

Isn't it awful that you've no right to give the reply that you're too busy to provide.

Show me the evidence. Where's the video of the con artist flying?

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:07

I don't need to believe anything! Haven't I mad that clear! You should read things more carefully. Everything I claim for TM is based on my own experiences nothing else!

I have never heard Maharishi say that I will be able to fly or become invisible and I have been on many courses, you'd think I would have heard it! Perhaps in the early days of YF people were a bit too enthusiastic. but ther is still time! Frankly I don't care if I fly or not the experience of deeper meditations are joy enough. I love the fact that nobody who has not experienced this knows what it is like.

These journals I speak of they are real Try typing "independent research" into the search engine. I

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:15

I told you! it's because I don't know any links!
Maybe it just isn't on the net who knows? But check with Harvard and psychology journals as they tend to be quite open minded about this stuff.

As for the money my course cost, everyone who learns YF knows that nothing is guaranteed, not even getting of the ground at all! we do it to deepen the effect of TM, and boy does it work.

I found this page through the fortean times website, forteans are people who suspend disbelief without evidence. I am and always will be an independent thinker and fortean. I believe nothing! TM and Yogic flying work I have proved that to myself, so have millions of others.

Sorry Ray I am overdue for my evening meditation, if you concentrate you may just feel an easing of your obvious tensions;-)

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:18

Yes Ray it is awful that I am a bit busy today, but what I meant was anti TM sites don't print my replies even when it takes me all day to write them.

Statistical methods etc? talk to the journals concerned.

by Ray Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:19

Are you now claiming that TMers never said they'd teach people how to fly?
Bevan Morris, head of Australia's Natural Law Party - "But that is just the beginning. Eventually one can learn to levitate."
http://www.alltm.org/zarticles/Bonn.html

The Yoga Sutras of Mahrishi Patanjali describes three stages of immediately visible results. Stage One is generally associated with what would best be described as "hopping like a frog." Stage Two is flying through the air for a short time. Stage Three is complete mastery of the sky.
http://www.alltm.org/YFlying.html

Looks like you were sleeping in class, doesn't it?

But that's okay, you don't care about the nonsensical claims your guru is making as long as you get to bounce up and down in peace.

And still you are unable to provide examples of research. You've already told me that 'its out there somewhere'. I don't believe you. YOU have the find the evidence yourself, since YOU are the one who thinks it exists. You can't just wave at the web and say 'in there'. Show me the link. Show me the evidence. Show me that you're not just a gullible idiot.

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:26

The three stages of yogic flying are indeed as you described, I have experienced 2 of them (very nice it was too) perhaps the 3rd will arise soon?

I'm sorry you think I'm a gullible idiot just because I don't have a pile of old science journals lying around or that I don't know limks to sites that perhaps don't even exist in cyber space, but Ray old chap, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Seek and ye shall find.

by Raymond McInerney Wed Feb 05, 2003 18:33

Look down the left hand side to see the journals that features the 'Maharishi Effect.'

Note: Not all of them are solely 'Scientific Research on Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Programme: Collected Papers'

It may not be possible to download many of the papers online from the different journals.

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 19:57

Thanks for your help there Raymond.
I was expecting to log on and have to field more abuse but it's interesting that this stuff is available on the net.

by Richard Hughes Wed Feb 05, 2003 20:15

I'm not one to smirk but I have just read your link with the ignoble site, as I say it's obvious you didn't as the essay about ig's clearly says half of the prizes are for good things half for bad (though they admit a certain confusion occasionally!) I feel we have been vindicated by the scientific press but there is no such thing as too much proof, I recommend that the govts of the world try an experiment with YF I will gladly take part. And they should try it soon!

I know how bizarre all this must seem to people but at least John Hagelin got some recognition. He is another example of a great man bowled over by TM and now devotes his life to teaching others.

by Robb Chapman Wed Feb 05, 2003 21:49

Interesting flame war between Richard and Ray! Essentially the same war as the one going on in my own head. As a practitioner of TM I have to agree that the personal benefits in the quality of one's own life and those one interacts with - family, friends etc - can be really remarkable. But this doesn't really break any prevailing paradigm and fits our accepted model of the mind and personal and interpersonal psychology - mental relaxation increases energy, positivity, attention capacity, which in turn can positively influence others with whom one interacts. But then I read about John Haeglin's work and the claims of researchers who say that coordinated groups of meditators can affect the community or the world in ways that go far beyond the interpersonal effect, and I gag, being a rationalist myself and generally suspicious of new age fluffy-headedness. No way such a thing could be true. And yet, what if it were true, and were measureable in controlled experiments, as some of these guys claim? Wouldn't that be critically important (and relatively easy) to pursue, since it seems to promise a much needed and incredibly inexpensive means to radically improve our world? I'm afraid I'm not enough of a social scientist or statistician to evaluate these studies myself. So I keep watching.

Ray is right insofar as requiring rigorous application of scientific method, and especially since the claim *is* fantastic. But, just because something is paradigm breaking doesn't mean it couldn't be true.

I've never believed that TMers could fly and consider it entirely beside the point. But if something has demonstrable benefit, use it (and TM *does* - try it, Ray!).

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 14:16

Before I start laughing again.
I had a look at this wonderful research you pointed to.
Publication in "Scientific Research on Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Programme: Collected Papers"? Wow, that's credible.
Publication in "Dissertation Abstracts International"? Congratulations, publication in a journal that "Indexes dissertations accepted for doctoral degrees by accredited North American educational institutions and over 200 other institutions". I wonder what those 'other institutions might be?
"American Statistical Association"? I checked their website, read through their annual proceedings, and there's no mention of this author or the paper he supposedly presented. Funny that.
"Midwest Management Society"? Do a search for that paper and you'll find hundreds of TM sites, but no independent evidence that that paper was even presented to, let alone supported by, the MMS.

This is what you call evidence?

When Richard Hughes first posted here he said "All of which where independently monitored and reported in reputable journals (International journal for conflict resolution, Harvard sociological research, American psychology today)"
And yet in 11 posts since then there have been no links to these papers, no proof that they exist, and no evidence of independent researchers doing anything other than laughing at the deluded idiots bouncing up and down on their arses. All I get are assurances that its out there somewhere, and links to TM sites. Are you not embarrassed yet?

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 14:21

"The three stages of yogic flying are indeed as you described, I have experienced 2 of them "

That's flying through the air. Not 'bouncing like a frog'.
Prove it.

(Oh, and how does this sit with your earlier claim that this talk of flying was just 'people being a bit overenthusiastic'? Or Robb saying "I've never believed that TMers could fly")

Or are you trying to complete the set of 'gullible', 'self-deluding', 'idiotic', and now 'dishonest'?

by pat c Thu Feb 06, 2003 14:55

The ace Yogic Flyers have scored another coup! In a daring pre-dawn raid these stealth flyers surprised the Irish Army company which was guarding Shannon Warport.

Subjecting the troops to a carpet love bombing they soon had them rolling on the tarmac.

This reporter saw Irish troops giving out flowers to incoming US marines. The armoured personnel carriers have been renamed as Love Bugs and painted in acid stlye colours.

by Raymond McInerney Thu Feb 06, 2003 15:16

The following link gives the research carried out on Transcendental Meditation in different institutes and universities around the world.

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 15:42

That means a link to the papers themselves, not just a page on a TM site that says the papers exist.
You do understand the distinction, don't you?

by Richard Hughes Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:06

I hope you are still reading this Ray.

Robb saying he doesn't believe TMers can fly proves nothing, he hasn't tried it after all!

When we do YF we don't hop about it is entirely spontaneous, I would feel a bit stupid if we were taught how to jump up and down but we weren't, we were taught one of Patanjalis yoga sutras and the effects were instantly impressive in a blissful transcendent kind of way and far beyond anything I had experienced up to that point, but not levitating yet.

I am sorry that you can't find the sort of independent evidence you require but in my own copies of the TM research papers I have stuff from all sorts of journals. I also think the research is kind of irrelevant to my own experiences as they have more than borne out what I had been led to expect from magazines & books.

I hope one day you experience this Ray it is a good thing whether you learn to fly or not!

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:19

"I have never heard Maharishi say that I will be able to fly or become invisible and I have been on many courses, you'd think I would have heard it! Perhaps in the early days of YF people were a bit too enthusiastic. but ther is still time! Frankly I don't care if I fly or not the experience of deeper meditations are joy enough."

"The Yoga Sutras of Mahrishi Patanjali describes three stages of immediately visible results. Stage One is generally associated with what would best be described as "hopping like a frog." Stage Two is flying through the air for a short time."

"The three stages of yogic flying are indeed as you described, I have experienced 2 of them "

So which is it?

So you've been ... confused ... about this whole flying thing, you can't produce any of this evidence you assure me exists 'somewhere', but I should still close my eyes, give you my money, and 'give it a try'.

Tell me, does this approach work with many people? Or do you often find that the people who would like to enrol in your courses have spent all their money buying bridges and swampland? And could you do us all a favour and stop taking up space on the newswire by posting the latest press releases from your bearded conman?
(Of course, if you can fly up to my office with the next press release I'd be happy to post it for you)

by Richard Hughes Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:36

Actually I think Patanjali says part two is hopping about.

Sorry, I don't get the bit about bridges and paddy fields, everyone I know who does TM is happy to have learnt and enjoys the practise enormously.

Maharishi has no personal wealth, all the money the TM movement makes is currently going to building projects in India, schools health clinics etc. Eventually we hope to have a huge centre with 10,000 people FY all day! but won't understand why until you've read the evidence I suppose.

Keep looking it's worth a read!

Maharishi a con man?, I don't think so, he would have to get money without offering anything in return which clearly isn't the case, ask anyone who does TM regularly.

by Raymond McInerney Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:39

1. Hagelin, J. S., Orme-Johnson, D. W., Rainforth, M., Cavanaugh, K., & Alexander, C. N. (1999). Results of the National Demonstration Project to Reduce Violent Crime and Improve Governmental Effectiveness in Washington, D.C. Social Indicators Research, 47, 153-201.

Abstract available, need to register for full script.

by Raymond McInerney Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:43

Ray

As I have noticed political parties and others post press releases on the newswire.

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:45

"The physical manifestations of the "Yogic Flying" vary with the practitioner. The Yoga Sutras of Mahrishi Patanjali describes three stages of immediately visible results. Stage One is generally associated with what would best be described as "hopping like a frog." --------Stage Two is flying through the air for a short time.--------- Stage Three is complete mastery of the sky. The above photo and all "Yogic Flying" demonstrations to date depict Stage One results."

http://www.alltm.org/YFlying.html

Can you fly or can't you?
Have you seen anyone fly or not?
Are you denying that the Maharishi says TM teaches people how to fly?
If he says that, but doesn't teach it, doesn't that make him a conman?

Just because you enjoy bouncing up and down like an idiot, doesn't mean you're not being conned. You are being told things that are not true. you are being asked for money under false pretences. And, like an idiot, you are accepting what you are told without asking for evidence. (Or accepting 'evidence' that is nothing of the sort)

If you want to do that, fine. If you get some pleasure out of bouncing up and down, that's up to you. I know people who enjoy yoga, football, and drinking beer. If they enjoy it, that's cool.
But none of my beer-drinking friends claim that beer radiates positive energy, and not even at their drunkest do they claim that it can make them fly. Most importantly, they don't post articles on indymedia saying that if enough people sign up to drink Guinness the positive energy released will stop the war.
Take the hint.
Go away.

by Raymond McInerney Thu Feb 06, 2003 16:52

People practice Yogic Flying to create peace in themselves and their surroundings.

Most people have achieved the first stage of Yogic Flying which are short hops.

The reason why they havn't YET levitate is because their level of consciousness is not fully purified.

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 17:09

"Give me your money and I'll teach you to fly"
"hang on, prove that you can fly first"
"The flying part is not important"

Face it. NOBODY can levitate, let alone fly.
Not even your precious guru. And yet the claims continued for twenty years.

Why did your group of lunatics claim they could fly for so long if it was unimportant? Why lie?

by Raymond McInerney Thu Feb 06, 2003 17:11

People practice the technique for world peace.

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 17:16

They spent twenty years saying they can fly, and your write it off as 'their level of consciousness isn't high enough'.

Well if that's not true, what about the rest? How can you trust someone who lies about something as basic as that? Remember, it wasn't just one or two people who said this - it went all the way to the Mahascamartist himself, who said that he himself could fly. Do you _like_ being lied to?

by Richard Hughes Thu Feb 06, 2003 17:30

Ray I've told you before we do YF because it increases the benefits of TM considerably. Yes people may have been enthusiastic in thinking we would all be levitating in 6 months but that doesn't mean it won't happen ever!, as I also say it doesn't matter to me if I never actually fly, I don't know many who care either. The fact remains (yes fact!) doing TM & YF in a group greatly increases both the subjective and objective intensity of the experience. This implies that consciousness is more than most people are aware certainly most scientists, but things are changing.

For instance there was a documentary on BBC2 last night about near death experiences most of what they discussed seemed very familiar to me, they even considered the possibility of quantum effects in consciousness. The mind has such possibilities, I wish I could video some of my experiences and you would see we are not a bunch of gullible morons but we are onto something.

Don't be disappointed that you can't find what you want straight away, I'm sure if you study what's there a bit harder you will find what you are looking for, remember you didn't get the point of Ig nobel awards because you didn't read the whole thing!

by Ray Thu Feb 06, 2003 17:44

I don't care whether or not you think you'll ever be able to fly.
What I'm pointing out is that your guru and his sidekicks spent twenty years claiming that he could, others could, and anyone who took the classes would be able to.
He can't, they can't, and they won't be able to.
This was what we call a LIE. A SCAM. A CON.
A deliberate untruth told to get money from the gullible.

The fact that you are SO gullible that you don't even care that you've been lied to is neither here nor there. You've bought a car that fell apart as soon as you left the garage, and now you're saying that you quite like scrap metal. So as well as being easily fooled, you're easily pleased. What a recommendation.

And since you're interested, I've known of the Ig Nobel awards for years, and used to be a (e-mail) subscriber to the Annals of Improbable Research. And if you persist in believing that the award means they are taking you seriously it only proves how desperate you are to believe.
They're laughing AT you, not WITH you.
(As a disciple of the 'giggling guru' you should recognise the sound made by someone laughing at your gullibility)

by Raymond McInerney Thu Feb 06, 2003 17:56

Guess the world is not ready for vedic knowledge yet.

by Anonymous Thu Feb 06, 2003 19:01

I haven't time to go through the debate at the moment but as I eluded to earlier, I'm with Richard Hughes on this one so far.

As I said earlier, I think the Maharishi and the huge network of universities, TM practicioners etc. that has grown up around him, are onto something.

But I do take Ray's point of independand evidence.

I used to study (& practice) a lot on this before and I remember plenty of evidence being produced by TM scientists. I also remember independant evidence being produced but the extent of this was limited I think.

But just from a general, personal sense, I think we should not underestimate the power of consciousness and the effect that we all have on eachother.

Every effect has an equal and opposite reaction. I think that this is totally scientifically proven.

If you ever walk into a football stadium, do you not feel this having an effect on you? If you walk into a crowded pub, do you not feel this having an effect on you? If you walk into a removal or a funeral, do you not feel this having an effect on you?

Though all of Maharishi's postulations may not yet be fully scientifcally proven, I think there is enough supporting information to take them seriously. Though they may not yet fully be proven this does not mean that they are necessarily incorrect.

by Richard Hughes Fri Feb 07, 2003 15:10

It's a shame Ray has quit the discussion, I hope he has some luck scouring the web for his proof.

I shall have a word with my mates who run the TM movement and tell them to put the actual papers on the net instead of just abstracts. But there has been a lot of stuff published, the most recent in the Lancet about reducing heart disease among inner city communities, very sucsessful, the people who learnt TM demanded the control group was taught as well as they were enjoying it so much!

by Richard Hughes Fri Feb 07, 2003 15:21

Very pleased in fact, not only because nobody ever told me I will be able to actually levitate straight away, but because I've got more than I dreamed I ever could just from sitting around with my eyes closed.

As for the Ignobels I think that the publication of J hagelins paper in the Harvard Journal "Social Indicators Research" (June/July 1999) is proof that science is starting to take it seriously. Perhaps, if as you insist the Igs are taking the piss, that narrow-mindness in the face of ground breaking research is more common than we thought. But I don't blame you for sceptisism I would have a job believing it if I hadn't experienced it.

Also, NDE's are a real phenomenon just not fully understood. I think to accuse someone of believing anything just because of an interest in unusual states of consciousness, verging on the pig ignorant, there is more to this world than you have seen Ray old chap.

by Ray Fri Feb 07, 2003 16:54

Quantum tunnelling, black holes, quasars, supernovae, extremophilic bacteria, giant underground fungi... the list goes on. There are lost of interesting things that I haven't seen.
One of the relatively uninteresting things that I've seen plenty of is gullibility. Exhibit A, step forward and take a bow.

"The evidence is out there somewhere"
"I can't find it, but I'm sure that it exists because the Maharishi says it does"
"It doesn't matter that I've been lied to, I enjoy meditating"

The same old crap that's trotted out by believers in perpetual motion machines, astrology, faked moon landings, and all the other irrational nonsense that's out there. Believing feels _good_, so you'll do anything to avoid questioning that belief.
You poor pathetic fool.

by Richard Hughes Fri Feb 07, 2003 17:06

Hi Ray glad your still with us.

Yes the universe is a wonderful place full of astonishing things. The states of consciousness reached through meditation are also amazing and a lot easier to reach than black holes or supernovae!

It's not that I believe in the evidence just that I can't find it on the internet! I have seen and even participated in the research. I think perhaps you aren't reading my postings thoroughly enough.

I don't believe in fake moon landings, astrology etc. but I am interested in all manner of anomalous phenomena, who knows what else there is to learn?

Gullible? Me? No, as I say I have got a lot out of TM &YF and noone ever told me I would be leviating straight away. But there is still time ;-)

Actually it's nearly time for my evening hop.

Catch you later.

by Ray Fri Feb 07, 2003 17:27

Not research carried out by true believers.
You understand the difference?
Would you believe tobacco company research that said cigarettes were harmless? Ford research that said Ford cars were safest?
But you expect people to believe research carried out by TM practitioners.
You can fool some of the people all of the time - you're living proof of that - but most of us have a better understanding of evidence than that.

by Richard Hughes Fri Feb 07, 2003 19:19

Yes I understand perfectly I hope my teasing hasn't gotten you down! I shall spend this weekend searching for some and hopefully by monday I can try and convince you.

by Richard Hughes Mon Feb 10, 2003 17:01

Well Ray I've had a good old read of my collected papers on TM and very interesting it was too but as for the subject of this debate it would appear that the afforementioned studies published in the Harvard Journal & the journal of conflict resolution are the only independently verified studies on the Maharishi effect published to date.

This should not be taken as bad news by the scientifically minded however, quite the contrary in fact. The editors of Social indicators research said of our course in washington, that even though the concept may seem bizarre the figures add up and it may be a new paradigm in the understanding of group behaviour (or words to that effect). The JOCR estimated the chance of such effects happening by chance as billions to one against after studying nine such courses we ran during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. This is all mentoned in press releases we sent out during the kosovo war in 1999 to try and persuade the world that we had a better solution than blowing people to smithereens.

What we need is more big courses but we have to pay for these things our selves and really how many times to we need to prove it? I think the thing that stops this becoming part of general knowledge is it seems to go against what we are already taught and is a bit way out, but then it was 20 years before plate tectonics was accepted as fact so we shouldn't worry yet. Well actually the ordinary people of Iraq should be very worried indeed, I know what Dubya and Blair have in store for them.

by Annonymous Mon Feb 10, 2003 18:43

BUPA in some countries like Holland, give insurance discounts for TM practicioners. That's a strong indicator of independant support for this technique I reckon.

But I think Ray is right, that if the general populous are to be convinced then the eveidence needs to be independant. I would think though that there must have been plenty of independant research done other what you have pointed out Richard, n'est pas?

by Richard Hughes Tue Feb 11, 2003 15:33

Yes there has been a lot published but Ray was only after evidence of the Maharishi effect, and the fact that any journals have published the few papers that have been done on the subjectis very encouraging. But, yes, more needs to be done i think to convince the masses as it must seem strange for those not fortunate enough to have experinced it.

by Jim Flanegin Fri Feb 14, 2003 19:33 jflanegi at pacbell dot net

Just thought I'd weigh in with my comments on this issue on the validity or not of TM and yogic flying-
I've been meditating (TM) for 27 years at this point and did learn the flying technique about 20 years ago. I've done it because it has worked and felt like a natural and progressive practice. By progressive I mean that I am not the same person I was. No huge 'religious' conversion or anything, just the expansion of my awareness. That in and of itself is a curious phenomenon because we all live life according to the limitations of our consciousness. Just as a dog or a chimp does. Then as awareness expands we see things in a different light. As Maharishi once put it, if you put on red glasses you will see red, or if you put on green glasses you will see green. The analogy is close enough.
The point being you cannot explain something which radically changes your perspective on life to someone that hasn't experienced it, except to descibe all of the general elements of it.
On that point I gave up a long time ago trying to convert others to my cause, be it politics, TM or whatever.
It is up to each of us to use our intuition and desires to lead us to whatever it is that will truly produce happiness within us, whatever that is. If it is TM, great, or if it is a Guiness that is OK too.
Last I want to say that, yes I did the yogic flying technique and yes, it works. However it does make my daily meditation program longer than I can reasonably accomodate so I no longer do it.

All the Best,
Jim

by William Torrington - St. Louis Transcendental Meditation Program Sat May 29, 2004 09:44 stlouistmprogram at mindspring dot com

I have enjoyed your interesting dialogue. Perhaps all parties will enjoy our informative website, from the St. Louis Transcendental Meditation program of St. Louis, Missouri, USA.

Sincerely,

Bill Torrington

P.S. You can travel hundreds of miles ... and thousands of years on our website. Lots of research links ... : ) Please enjoy!

by William Torrington Sat May 29, 2004 10:03

Note: I have included an interesting video on our website with the comments and recommendations of Lord Buddha on the best form of meditation to use to reach Nirvana.

I thought his input might be helpful here ... ( :

Again, please enjoy!

by Raymond McInerney - Global Country of World Peace Mon Mar 27, 2006 23:56 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie Limerick 00353860638611

Explore the Frontiers of Consciousness, Creativity and the Brain
March 24-26, Maharishi University of Management

Your Brain Needs This...............

At 21minutes 30 seconds (of the webcast on http://www.lynchweekend.org/)
Introduction by Robert Roth the author of the book ‘Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation’
http://www.rxtm.co.nz/books/tm_by_robert_roth.htm

At 26 minutes to 1 hour 26 minutes
David Lynch who was nominated as the world’s number one director by the Guardian.
http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/page/0,11456,108282....html

He’ll be answering questions from the crowd, about such things as directing, filming, creativity and consciousness etc.

At 1 hour 50 minutes to 2 hours 52 minutes
John Hagelin (PhD), will talk about quantum physics, the universe, consciousness and the brain etc.

by Raymond McInerney - Global Country of World Peace Tue Mar 28, 2006 17:35 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie Limerick 00353860638611

Tonight at 6 pm GMT broadcast live via satellite and Internet webcast (www.globalcountry.org).

'This will be a great day for America and the world,' Dr. Hagelin said. 'We are moving the Capital of America from Washington, D.C., to Washington Township, Kansas.

Communications Office: 2000 Capital Blvd. • Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa 52556 • 641-470-1344

MEDIA ADVISORY

Contact: Bob Roth 202-251-7014

New Capital Will Make the US Government Invincible

480-Acre Site Located in the Brahmasthan (geographical center) of America

The World Capital of Peace will be inaugurated as a national center of coherence and harmony for America during global celebrations on Tuesday, March 28, at 12:00 noon in Washington Township, Smith County, Kansas. The celebrations will be broadcast live via satellite and Internet webcast (www.globalcountry.org).

The 480-acre site is located in the Brahmasthan (geographical center) of America—approximately 90 miles south of Interstate 80 and 128 miles north of Interstate 70 near the junction of US Hwy 281 and US Hwy 36. The address is 17022 100 Road, Smith Center, Kansas.

The site will also be home to the Capital of the US Peace Government and its President Dr. John Hagelin, world-renowned quantum physicist and Minister of Science and Technology of the Global Country of World Peace.

'This will be a great day for America and the world,' Dr. Hagelin said. 'We are moving the Capital of America from Washington, D.C., to Washington Township, Kansas. From there, the US Peace Government will create coherence in the collective consciousness so the darkness of problems and suffering in the nation will go,' Dr. Hagelin said. 'We will make the existing government invincible.'

Dr. Hagelin will deliver the keynote address during the inauguration, and will be joined by the Rajas—Administrators—of the U.S. domains of the Global Country of World Peace.

Dr. Hagelin said that the move from 'Washington to Washington' is necessary to neutralize the negative influences coming to the government from the city of Washington, D.C. These negative influences, he said, are generated by the wrong orientation and location of the government buildings. 'In contrast, the orientation and location of the buildings in the Brahmasthan will be ideal—they will promote good fortune for the government leaders and the entire nation,' Dr. Hagelin said.

Dr. Hagelin emphasized that the US Peace Government will support—and not be in conflict with—the existing government. 'Our role is to support the present government—to promote prevention-oriented, problem-free administration,' he said.

On January 12, 2006, the Global Country of World Peace inaugurated the World Capital of Peace for India in the Brahmasthan of India.

by Peacenaut Tue Mar 28, 2006 18:10

You need to get Yogi Flyers to come in at low level and love bomb the Whitehouse and the Capitol.

by Raymond McInerney - Global Vountry of World Peace Tue Mar 28, 2006 19:18 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie Limerick, Ireland 00353860638611

HISTORIC LIVE BROADCAST FROM BRAHMASTHAN OF THE U.S.

Inaugurating the World Capital of Peace for America and the Capital of the U.S. Peace Government

Ceremonies of the World Capital of Peace for America and the Capital of His Excellency Dr. John Hagelin’s U.S. Peace Government in the Brahmasthan of the United States. The Inauguration will also include the announcement of the Administration for Invincible America.

The Rajas of the different Domains of the United States are traveling to the US Brahmasthan for this very auspicious event establishing the World Capital of Peace for America. The ceremonies will be connected live with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, His Majesty Maharaja Nader Raam, and the Rajas and Global Ministers at Meru, Holland by video conference.