Army New Year Statement

by You have no friends here Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:12

You have no friends here.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:21

Mr. O'Neill,

Some suggestions for new year resolutions:

1. Disband. In our constitution, there is only one army, the army raised by Oireachtas Eireann. There is no room in this country for private armies.

2. Give your full support to democratic politics and leave your paramilatary past behind you.

3. Apologise for all the murders you have committed, in the 'name' of national unity.

4. Tell us where all the 'missing', people excuted by you and yours are buried. Your people were released from prison, now its time to release the victims families from their prisons.

When you do this, we can all truly look forward to a brighter new year.

Regards,

Alex,
YFG, (Fine Gael The United Ireland Party)

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:32 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

All IRA prisoners have not been released. In contrvention of the Good Friday Agreement the Dublin government is holding qualifying prisoners as political hostages in Castlerea.

I see your average Blueshirt's understanding of the North in general, and Irish republicanism specifically, has not come on since John Bruton was in charge.

by MG Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:48

Now, could you please scroll down the page to the 'Shannon Bores' story and answer the questions I raised re: FG's (the partitionist party) support for the murder of Iraqi civilians and your attempt to describe Mary Kelly - a decent, hard-working and honourable human being - as a terrorist.

And by the way, when I say answer the question, I don't mean get your mates to come onto the newswire and accuse me of racism. If you answer the questions I asked, I'll be delighted to answer any points you would like to raise.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:53

At least I know that Republicanism = Liberty, Fraternity & Equality!

Anyway, what is wrong with telling the families of the victims of the IRA murder machine where the bodies are buried? What is wrong with democracy? Why are you still buying weapons?

by pete ranx Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:56

whats the point?

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Thu Jan 09, 2003 16:08 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

I have to admit to being vaguely impressed that Alex could think up a republican slogan. Sadly Alex, shouting such slogans, no matter how noble they are, doesn't actually make you a republican. Beliving in them and trying to bring about that kind of society is what makes a republican. Doesn't mean you have to be a member of Sinn Féin or the IRA to be a republican. There are republicans in other parties and organisations, but it does pretty much exclude the one you've ended up in.

I have no problem, and neither dies the IRA with the disappeared being delivered back to their families and the IRA has done this to the extent that it is still possible. Sadly, time and the death of people who had the necessary information over the years mean it is very unlikely more can be done.

There is nothing wrong with democracy. Sinn Féin is a democratic political party and the IRA is an organisation set up to create an indepdendent, democratic Ireland. What is wrong is when democracy is denied to people, forcing them to take up arms.

I'm not buying weapons.

Couple of questions back to you, do you support the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and do you accept that the men held in Castlerea are eligible for release under the Agreement?

Why are you, and your party, obsessed with an organisation which has largely kept its ceasefire and completely ignore the ongoing attacks on nationalists across the Six Counties and the Loyalist sectarian murders we have seen in the last 12 months?

Do you have the slighest idea what it is llike for nationalist communities living under siege and abandoned by your party and the Dublin government to be lectured about their responsibilities to you?

Do you accept that the policing arrangements fall short of the Patten Report?

by x Thu Jan 09, 2003 18:12

Their day is over.

by FOD Thu Jan 09, 2003 18:43

fuck off

by In support of Alex Thu Jan 09, 2003 18:59

C-IRA Fuck off

by Chuck Thu Jan 09, 2003 19:03

"For liberty, fraternity and equality" was the republican slogan of the French revolution.

Perhaps, Alex, you'd comment (in the appropriate thread) on my allegation that FG and YFG amongst many others support terrorism. This is under the thread:
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=23232&start=20

by chris - sp Thu Jan 09, 2003 19:25

surely justin you meant a democratic socialist republic, because i note you don't have any mention of socialism in your comment. wasnt it connolly who told us that labours cause is ireland and irelands cause is labour??!!

sorry i forgot the pira never were, are or have been a socialist party or have any wish to be a socialist party. socialism, the working class protestant, catholic and dissenter on both sides of the border are the only people who will bring peace to northern ireland, not "democracy" or "democratic" politics.

sadly your comments above in this thread were correct and right in the times of the united irishmen, when capitalism and democratic revolution could have brought something to ireland. but that failed and those same slogans and demands that were correct 200 years ago are not correct today, socialism and the right of all the people of ireland and britain to self-determination is the only solution.

its sad that so many radical young catholic men and women were dragged down the dead end road of individual terrorism by the right wing sectarian leadership of the provos, that only in the last 10 years has seen that its violence was unable to achieve any of the goals that were originally set by itself.

i find it disgusting that in the south sf use such radical language and try to portray themselves as socialists, while when they had ministerial positions in the Assembly they supported all forms of privatisation. its not often that an irish times articles headline is correct but there article from june last year entitled "socialists in the south, privatisers in the north" hit the nail directly on the head.

tell me justin do you truly believe the words of your masters that there will be a united ireland in 15 years time? if there is i will change my name to Iwas Wrong-All Along!!!!!!

sfand their cohorts in the uup, dup and the sdlp stand for the interests of capitalism and upholding of the present system

by IMCer Thu Jan 09, 2003 19:46

The SP hacks using every opportunity to have a go at SF. Can't you find ANYTHING else to talk about?

by iosaf jedi on many threads. - taking time out from talking to God Dave. Thu Jan 09, 2003 20:01 barcelona

has not great genius proceeded from Derry?
and not just Phil Coulter. the SWM have as well.
great writers there.
Justin´s getting flustered by the petulant ogra support team, few of his comments are getting printed.
relax Justin! take a deep breath.
go talk to God / Dave on the "Pride not spam" article, then come back and watch the next generation.

Liberty Equality and Fraternity.
oh yes.
I spent a while in Paris (well I would wouldn´t I?) and on the same street as my permanent record details my address was situated the independence part of Brittany. Liberté egalité et Fraternité.
They with assistance from the London based Campaign Against the Arms Trade drew up a list of arms investment made over the years.
Interesting stuff. Did you know that FG has bought more weapons for FF (the Irish army official acroynm) than FF (the little rascals group name).

I really am delighting in the idiocy by the way YFG and friends.
Does the use of the "N" word hang with LEF?
do your policies?
do you need more rope to hang yourselves with?

by pat c Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:49

I find it disgusting that in the south the SP will use such radical language, but in the north they will support the "right" of the Orange Order to march down the Garvaghy Road. That they continue to support this "right" is astounding; Loyalists have killed 12 people to addert the self sme "right".

After the 3 Quinn children were burned to death, even hardened Loyalists withdrew support for the Portadown Orangemen; amazingly, the SP still say the Orange Order has the right to march down the Garvaghy Road.

At Holycross school in North Belfast the SP blame the Catholic parents for being sectarian; sectarian for wanting to use the front entrance of the school.

Even the DUP were able to condemn the bombing of this primary school without trying to put some of the blame on to the parents. Fat chance of the SP doing that.

by alice Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:37

Hi I'm Pat C and in Pat C'Land everything is black and white ( I really mean Catholic and Protestant ) and I chose what are facts and what is fiction at the exspense of reality and history. Instead of helping the innocent catholic school girls get to school safely, I have decided that my time would be better served defending republicanism (of any kind and shade) on indy media from those betrayers of the cause, turn coats and general Brit apologists in the South. But, fear not my catholic brethern, my thoughts are with you (from the comfort of my chair in front of my computer) more power to yous!!!

by pat c Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:48

You have made no rational criticism or analysis of my points. Everything in my post was factual:

1 the SP support the right of Orangemen to march down the Garvaghy Road

2. Loyalists have murdered 12 people to assert that right.

3. after the quinn babies were burned to death, even hardened loyalists withdrew their support from the Portadown Orangemen. The SP still support the right of the Orange Order to march down the road.

4. Consistently on indymedia , SP members have blamed Catholic parents for the situation at Holycross.

5. The DUP condemned the bombing at the school without trying to put some of the blame on the parents.

"Alice" if you are unable to engage in adult debate; then you really should stick to childrens discussion groups.

by KM Fri Jan 10, 2003 13:12

Speaking of factual, care to give us a few examples of

"Consistently on indymedia , SP members have blamed Catholic parents for the situation at Holycross."

Oh and Alice, keep up the Satire, Pat's higher brain functions stopped working years ago, he's literally being kept going by dogma.

The rest of us appreicate the humour.

by pat c Fri Jan 10, 2003 14:14

I presume you are incapable of it.

Ray clashed with Brian Cahill and others on this recently. Cahill was saying that "Joffe" didnt fully represent SP opinion; the debate then developed with Cahill and others pointing the finger at the Holy Cross parents.

I'm not going to seek it out for you. I really wish you SP members would engage in open & honest debate.

Again though, I never cease to be amazed at how SP members get outraged whenever anyone criticises them. My posting was in response to a SP attack on Republicans.

by critical Fri Jan 10, 2003 14:58

Is your defense of republicans a matter of principle or is it conditional. Your defense of "Republicans" in general seems to indicate that you believe that Republicans are better defendants and representatives of workers than any other group on the left - hence why you look for every opportunity to viciously attack the SP and others who unashamedly call themselves Socialists

by critical Fri Jan 10, 2003 14:59

Is your defense of republicans a matter of principle or is it conditional. Your defense of "Republicans" in general seems to indicate that you believe that Republicans are better defendants and representatives of workers than any other group on the left - hence why you look for every opportunity to viciously attack the SP and others who unashamedly call themselves Socialists

by anyone read Fri Jan 10, 2003 16:54

anyone read it yet, i'm half way through, its excellent.

by pat c Fri Jan 10, 2003 17:13

critical, your own critical faculties appear to be somewhat wanting.

my 1st posting was actually a response to a SP attack on republicans. If the SP are going to launch sectarian attacks then they shouldnt be surprised if there is a response.

I notice you haven't challenged or even attempted to counter any of the points I made.

My defence of SF and of the IRA is always a critical one, but I have to admit to a bit of knee-jerkery being involved when I am countering people who hold pro-loyalist positions.

I dont believe the IRA is a democratic organisation, any armed body should be answerable to the community and should be subordinate to political institutions. I do however recognise that the IRA and its campaign arose due to the corrupt and sectarian nature of the Orange state. I would not classify either the IRA or INLA as terrorist organisations.

Having said that though I think the armed campaign was wrong headed and some of their actions would have been seen as sectarian murder by the unionist community. (In particular I mean the targetting of people working on Army/RUC bases)

I also have political differences with SF & IRSP which I have made clear here on many occasions but some people choose to ignore this & misrepresent my position.

by Ois - Un-aligned Anarchist Fri Jan 10, 2003 17:17

Although I completely and utterly disagree with pat on the issue of the north. I must say I think it's funny watching people make all these kinds of presumptions about him, trying to make him into the sterio typical Sinner. When he quite obviously isn't (if you listen to his arguments). If Pat C is who I think he is (and I'm open to being corrected here) then he is an Anarchist who I know from campaigns with Libertaians Against Nice and Grassroots Against War and all that Anarcho stuff that I do when I can. If Pat C is who I think he is he is most certainly is not your usual Sinner. Funny.

Anyway, as I said I disagree with him, and would agree with the SP posts on this thread (kind of). I do have one qustion, one of you Millies posted saying that the SP believes in national self determination for Ireland and Great Britain, I have also seen the SP declare that they believe in a Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. Now I may be jumping to conclusions here, but drawing also from my understanding of Leninism, I have to ask you is it the CWI position that Great Britain and Ireland are but one nation? (I don't see how you can demand national self determination for a Federation of Britain and Ireland if they aren't a nation).

Ar aon nós, deireann na Sinners go bhfuil bhur lá ag teacht, ach táim ag rá libh anois, má thagann sé, ni bheidh sé mar aon lá speisialta. Ni fheicim fhéin aon maitheas ag baint le stáit-náisiún amháin a athrú go stáit náisiún eile. Ni hé aon rud speisialta a bheith faoi cós an Stáit-Éireannach i gcoine an stáit-Bhriotánach. 7 mar sin, tám ag rá nilim fhéin ag fanacht ar aon lá seachas lá na h-Ainriail, sin é lá na Saoirse.

Sios leis an 'RA,
Náisiúineachas Amú, Éire Abú.

Le Meas,
Ainriailigh igcoinne Cogadh.

by pat c Fri Jan 10, 2003 17:40

"If Pat C is who I think he is he is most certainly is not your usual Sinner."

a sinner i definitely am! perhaps you meant shinner?

yeah, i'm the pc you know ois. this thread is about the national question so problem with disagreements here. the problem lies in the inability of the SP to accept criticism.

They launch an attack on republicans and are then surprised when there is retaliation.

i dont think the national question has to intrude into every thread, certainly not into the anti gulf war topics. but then there are plenty of trolls who try to divide campaigns. wsm, sf, swp, gp, lp all have different positions on the national question; but that is irrelevant to the need to campaign against US & British imperialism in the Gulf.

by Brian Cahill Fri Jan 10, 2003 19:51

Pat C isn't worth arguing with. Arguing with someone who defends the Provos from any criticism and throws slanders at their critics while maintaining that he is in fact an anarchist should hardly be high on anybody's list of priorities.

Just in case he has succeeded in misleading someone: Pat claims that I and others in the Socialist Party blame the Holy Cross parents for the situation there. We don't. Pat knows it. Anyone who has ever spoken to us or read our material on the subject knows it.

And no, Ois, neither the Socialist Party nor the CWI thinks that Britain and Ireland are one nation.

by iosaf nation counter jedi and anarchist. Sat Jan 11, 2003 14:33

Borders are immoral.help people cross them.
and people are the same..everywhere.
Leaders are unacceptable. we accept none.
Property is theft particularly property of ideas, patents, medicine, copyright and genes.
Housing is a right. squat.
Armies are immoral. desert / object.

now put that in Ireland terms.

Nations are ethnic cultural linguistic streams and tribal social communities.

OFten in times of stress they are the "KISMET" and sometimes not.
That is why the Irish nation finds Republican actions at times difficult to accept.

national questions should be "agreed to disagree" for the moment in Ireland and Basque countries.

We are facing serious problems with both supernational states involved in those question debates.
UK and España.
and the people will best be served by widening the cause of their greviences.
o as if

by pat c Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:27

"Pat C isn't worth arguing with. Arguing with someone who defends the Provos from any criticism and throws slanders at their critics while maintaining that he is in fact an anarchist should hardly be high on anybody's list of priorities. "

brian you really are a pathological liar, you throw the slanders; you described "irony is dead", Ray & me as anti-protestant because we disagreed with you on the north. you really are pathetic.

" Pat claims that I and others in the Socialist Party blame the Holy Cross parents for the situation there. We don't. Pat knows it. Anyone who has ever spoken to us or read our material on the subject knows it"

Liar. you have done so indymedia on numerous occasions as have other SP members. the SP didnt even condemn the bombing of the Holy Cross school. Even the DUP were able to condemn the bombing without trying to put some of the blame on the parents.

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral
crisis, reserve their neutrality." - Dante

When Taigs have defended themselves against loyalist murder bids you have had the nerve to describe that as sectarian!

You defend the "right" of the Orange Order to march down the Garvaghy Road. This despite the fact that loyalists have muredered 12 people to assert that "right".

You oppose naming a QUB Bursary after pat Finucane, because its "sectarian".

You supported naming a QUB Bursary after a loyalist.

And you have the nerve to call yourself Trotskyist!

"The Revolutionary Tradition of the National Struggle is a precious good."
Leon Trotsky, 6 June 1936.

"And no, Ois, neither the Socialist Party nor the CWI thinks that Britain and Ireland are one nation."

so why do you call for a federation then?

would you call for a federation of Algeria & france?

why would any country want to federate with an imperialist aggressor?

you use "britain", it says a lot about your attitude to self determination for scotland and wales.

by pat c Mon Jan 13, 2003 13:43

Some SP gems on the Holy Cross siege:

"But there is also a reality that elements within the nationalist community used this issue to fight a sectarian turf war with the protestant community." Haugh

"At root, this conflict is about redefining boundaries between Catholic and Protestant areas, which is further polarising the communities. " Cahill

"The dispute at Holy Cross was at root not a result of discrimination against Catholics but a manifestation of an ongoing war over the redefinition of sectarian territory in North Belfast. Neither sectarian "side" in that bloody and futile squabble over streets and interfaces deserves our support." Cahill

Phew! Cahill really is a pathological liar; in his comment above he denied these comments were made. Just as well he doesnt control indy or that thread would have been deleted.

some of the SP have studied well at the Stalinist school of Falsification.
more at:
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=22169&start=220

I haven't qouted from "Joffe" because I'm not sure if hes really SP.