Dirty dealings afoot in City Council

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 14:48

The standard tactic is to have retiring members vote for stuff like this, because they have nothing to lose, and give them a slap on the wrist in public. That lets the party claim to be against the charges (or other measure) while ensuring that they pass.
While the shenanigans in the council chamber are good publicity for the campaign, continuing mass non-payment is the only thing that will actually defeat the charges.

by Joe Momma Wed Jan 08, 2003 15:54

The one thing those supposedly opposing bin charges in Dublin City Council WON'T do is put forward any realistic alternative to the budget proposed by the manager. Their plan has always been to create a sense of crisis around the issue, and then cook up some deal at the last minute to ensure the council survives, and the maximum number of their members can claim to have voted against the charges.

Labour did put forward an amendment, purely for the sake of form, as they must have know that it would be ruled out of order. Of the dozen or so adjustments they proposed, only a couple were within the power of the Council to make. From their point of view, however, they reckon they'll be able to tell the electorate that they had an alternative to waste charges, when in fact they put forward no such alternative.

Sinn Féin, Fine Gael and the Independents clearly want to have it all ways: they don't want to vote for bin charges, they don't want to formulate a budget that doesn't include bin charges, and they don't want the council to collapse.

The point I'm making is that NOBODY on City Council is genuinely working against bin charges. I don't have a problem with bin charges myself, but if this is an issue for you then don't be fooled by candidates who tell you they have been working tirelessly to have them abolished.

by diasporia Wed Jan 08, 2003 15:59

its years since i´ve left a bin on a Dublin street.

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:00

When rates were abolished, local services were supposed to be paid for by a subvention from central government (which was in turn funded by an increase in VAT). This subvention has been frozen for years, which is why the councils are having to make money with service charges. The alternative to bin charges is an increase in this subvention.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:26 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Some-one posted that Sinn Féin has not put forward an alternative. This is not true. While agreeing with Ray that the subvention needs to be increased there are other things that can be done.

First of all, we proposed that rates on government buildings be imposed. At the moment all government buildings are exempt from rates but of course use Council services same as anyone else. If the government won't increase the subvention, we should take the money.

Secondly, an end to the rate exemption for Bed & Breakfasts.

Our figures, which we presented to all parties on City Council indicate that this would more than pay the necessary without needing to resort to Bin Charges.

Lastly, I think Ray devalues the Council battle a wee bit. Bringing down the Council on this issue would be the first time Dublin has been without a City Council since the 60s (Open to being corrected but seem to remember that) and would be a massive boost for those local authorities around the state where the fight against the bin charges is going on.

by iosaf Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:27

what´s happening to you?
clarification?
where´s that wisdom to know what you can clarify and what you can´t?
did you run out of credit?
did Eircom cut you off?
is there more?

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:31

I agree that if the council is abolished it will be a big deal, but more for the publicity than anything else. The budget will still be passed either way, and either way the bin charges are big news.

by oooops. Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:35

i reckon you should bring down the council.
(just for practise.)

sort of revolutionary stuff like.
and make the state pay more for their bin charges.

and get people to think about what happens to their rubbish, where does it go? oh yes where does it go? and how much of it is really rubbish?
they should be recycling it all.

and make the US pay for their rubbish (garbage).
now you probably dont know this,
but (aren´t i a jedi full of curious facts) that most US embassies opt for special bin services.

Indeed the bottoms within the US complex on Merrion Road get wiped with US loo roll, it get´s flown into all their delegations from the paper mill in Penn.

During moments of extreme crises all garbage is flown out of the host country as well.

Isn´t it about time that these people paid for their rubbish??
I might just get out one of "my pissed off characters" and write to the Indo about it, what between rufians shitting all over County Clare and stopping the war effort, De Valera would have turned in his grave if he were alive today.

by iosf Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:36

De Valera alive in his grave.
six foot under.
turning around.
:-)

by bin tax activist Wed Jan 08, 2003 18:00

People on Indymedia should wake-up an lose their illusions in the Labour Party, they are a bunch of careerists bastards that only care for themselves. I have never had a good experience with the Labour Party. I've met many of their members over the past while and they have NO genuine people, only careerists and wannabe politicians.

Sinn Féin are not seriouslyt against the bin charges, they are only after votes. Justin Moran said they are putting forward an alternative to the Council, ie on rates for govt building etc. That's a good idea, but he didn't mention MASS NON-PAYMENT! that's the only way to defeat the charges. SF have done nothing for non-payment. Their argument is "vote for us, we'll sort it out for you". Well in reality they will sell you out as much as Labour. Remember Sligo, Tiocfaidh Ár Sligeach!

As for the Greens, ah sure I have pity. They are so liberal and middle class they dont even realise that privatisation is bad for the enviornment.

by Joe Momma Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:45

The point about the Sinn Féin "alternatives" mentioned above is that they are not within the power of the council to implement. The Government doesn't pay rates on its buildings within the City, which is a disgrace, but unfortunately the Council can't make them do so.

It's true that central government is giving local government a raw deal, but what's the answer? Hand power back to the Minister so he can implement whatever charges he wants? This doesn't make sense to me.

by Nib Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:50

Of course, Joe Momma, it makes much more sense to capitulate in the face of threats! Nobody will mind at all that the people they elected to run the city were arbitrarily replaced and no-one will mount a legal challenge and the issue of the bin tax will slide away under the door of the minister for the environment. Splendid idea.

by Joe Momma Wed Jan 08, 2003 20:47

Nib, I can't tell if you're trying to be be sarcastic or not, because the scenario you paint is actually quite plausible!

The people, the courts and the minister - none of these is going to be too stressed out if Dublin City Council is dissolved. It should matter to them, but it won't.

by Brian Cahill Thu Jan 09, 2003 02:51

Labour and Fine Gael nominate a councillor or two each to "break ranks" and vote for the charges while the bulk of their parties vote against.

by Ray Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:03

The problem is that householders are being charged an unjust tax. It doesn't matter whether this tax is charged by the council or central government, its still unjust. It doesn't do anybody any good to have local representatives if they don't obey the will of the people, so there's no real difference between a council that imposes a bin tax and a dissolved council - neither is doing what the people of Dublin want them to do.
You ask what the council should do about the estimates, but that's the wrong question. I don't really care what they do. The question that interests me is how to stop the bin charges. As the overwhelming majority of householders in Dublin have discovered, the answer to that is simple - don't pay them.

by Alex - YFG Thu Jan 09, 2003 13:33

Sinn Fein could use their private army to go around and collect the bins, seeing as they are 'committed' to democracy nowadays.

On a point of clarification, its Fine Gael policy to oppose the bin charges, even though some members of the party have expressed a PERSONAL view that charges should be applied, FG are opposing this one.

by Brian Cahill Thu Jan 09, 2003 20:17

Ben Bella is completely wrong. I posted once on this thread, under my own name.

I don't disagree with the points "bin tax activist" made, but I didn't make them. There are plenty of people with an interest in the anti-bin tax campaign who use indymedia and I doubt if very many of them have illusions in Labour or Sinn Fein.

by Aunty Party Fri Jan 10, 2003 21:05

I unlike most of the parasitic left wing spongers and has beens on this site fully support the bin charges both in Dublin and elsewhere and I also support other levies that are good for the environment such as the forthcoming water levy. You lot better wake up there are many more of these charges on the way such as the water levies mentioned above.

by aunty party Sat Jan 11, 2003 16:49

There is only one aunty party....